Can we have one day please
This may be a bit controversial and is definitely a rant.
Men notoriously find it difficult to talk about issues that affect us both personally and wider issues such as the high rate of male suicides and prostate cancer. Yesterday was International Men’s day. A day set aside to do just that. Highlight and discuss men’s issues.
What pissed me off completely was that in threads about it, right across my social media women posted things like it’s always men’s day or it’s men’s day everyday. There are some issues problems which equality across the board but yesterday was chance to get men to open up. Posting stuff like that is s counter productive. Can we not have one day when people can talk about issues that affect men?
Men notoriously find it difficult to talk about issues that affect us both personally and wider issues such as the high rate of male suicides and prostate cancer. Yesterday was International Men’s day. A day set aside to do just that. Highlight and discuss men’s issues.
What pissed me off completely was that in threads about it, right across my social media women posted things like it’s always men’s day or it’s men’s day everyday. There are some issues problems which equality across the board but yesterday was chance to get men to open up. Posting stuff like that is s counter productive. Can we not have one day when people can talk about issues that affect men?
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Comments
My problem is that I don't think an International Men's Day is the appropriate platform to encourage men to speak up about their emotional struggles and the need to resist toxic masculinity: it invites so many problematic comparisons and is always going to draw negative attention because of patriarchal privileges in so many aspects of life. And it isn't great for anyone to have to rely on a single men's day (or women's day, or LGBTQ day or Black History Month) to reach out to men who are traumatised, depressed, suicidal etc. Then there's the hoopla of social media and haters -- really not a safe space for disclosures and cries for help. Matt Haig is amazing in his openness on Twitter but he acknowledges what a tricky medium it can be.
Would the responses be different if the day was reframed with a more specific focus as Troubled Men Speak Out? Or Men against Toxic Masculinity? Or Depression and Men? In South Africa each August we have campaigns that began as Women's Month and are now called Ending Sexual Violence Against Women and Children. Many argue, in light of the sexual violence against trans people and men in prison, that the campaign should be simply renamed Ending Sexual Violence.
Epiphanies is not 'non judgy', but the hosting is much more hands-on than Purg. Or All Saints for a support thread (but not really 'discussion' as such). But yes, there are places.
Then you post this. This is why social media is so harsh on an International Men’s Day.
Men are celebrated every day. Straight, white men are still king.
It might seem that “men are under attack” but this is only because others are speaking for themselves.
Perhaps you did not mean it like it sounds. But the way it comes across, at least to me, is a bit Men’s Rightsish.
So. Bring awareness to men not being able to discuss and address their mental and physical health? 👍🏽
Celebrate men? Not so much.
With others, I’m all for encouraging discussion about issues that affect men and that men are all too often unwilling or hesitant to talk about. (I question, though, whether an International Men’s Day really helps with that, at least not without lots of explanation.)
But count me out on “a day to celebrate men and the positive things about manhood.” Aside from the eye-roll inducing concept of it, and I say that as a man, it seems directly counter to encouraging discussion about issues that affect men and that men avoid talking about.
I don't see what there is to celebrate. The idea that I would celebrate the fact that I am a man makes about as much sense as celebrating my shoe size. Let everyone celebrate being an individual and leave it at that.
Largely because there’s nothing in particular to celebrate. Speaking as a man. What’s manhood? Being a dick? Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?
No.
Toxic masculinity is a problem. But positive awesome manhood isn’t.
Seriously, dudes. Unless you actually want lilBuddha acting like a Reaper drone on your feels, start a new thread somewhere else.
Is there anything special about women that men or gender queer or others don't have?
I'm not aware of any sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome womanhood", but that doesn't seem to stop us celebrating it.
Personally (though I could be wrong), I suspect we'll find enough overlap among "positive awesome manhood," "positive awesome womanhood," and "positive awesome personhood" as to render this whole discussion moot.
As to the rest, I find myself living inside a culture in which men are richer than women, men have more power than women, men have more leisure than women, and men enjoy more privilege than women. I also find myself living inside a culture in which men pose genuine threats to women's lives, health and safety. Generally speaking, of course; individual exceptions always apply.
By all means, help me understand what it is about this situation that I, as a woman, should be celebrating.
It has nothing to do with thinking there is nothing positive about (healthy) masculinity, and lots to do with thinking that there's something pretty bizarre and totally missing-the-point about setting aside a day to "celebrate" masculinity, however that is understood.
Part of good masculinity is realising it's really stupid to paint a target on yourself and run through a firing range. So, go ahead, discuss this all you want, right here. In (checks top of board) Hell.
But a day to raise awareness of men's mental health issues and encourage them to seek support / help given the rate of suicide among men under thirty sounds like an excellent plan.
In my place of work men do not get better treated than women. In fact we are about to appoint a female chair. Things are not perfect on all accounts bit they are changing. As I said there’s are good men and bad men. There is a tendency for all men to be painted the same.
I don’t give a toss for having a target on my back I am passionate about this.
Ohher the list of positives about men are similar to the ones about women, with some gender specific exceptions. They are still positive. Because of the acts of a group of women I was pushed to near suicide. They treated me like shit. They had already underhandedly forced some men they didn’t like to leave. My body is not lying under a tube train because I got out. I don’t judge all women by the way they acted.
Let’s build men up.
Nope. But women and gender queer people face disproportionate oppression and other difficulties. Celebrating them for overcoming systematic adversity that men don’t face seems fine to me.
I don’t hate men, being a man, but I can recognize our benefits in life.
Waiting for lb’s drone strike now.
But it does not mean that men are poorly treated in the main.
One can go to the American South and probably find a workplace in which black people are treated better than white ones. This does not change that the system is biased in favour of white people.
Everyday really is celebrate men day. The mental and physical health issues are because the wrong things about masculinity are celebrated.
The world is a straight, white man's world. Others celebrating what they are is not claiming superiority, but equality. It is a reaction to being oppressed. Men are people too! is a reaction to threat of losing their privileged position.
I disagree. It is men trying to find their place in a changing world. In a World were old certainties are no more. That is not the same as losing privilege. Most men I know are happy with equality.
I know men who are completely happy with equality. I know men who are completely unhappy with it. Most I know are in the middle somewhere.
I'm not sure how being a man particularly impacts on any of that, besides making some of it more socially acceptable.
Whether you're happy with equality depends on what side of the fence you're on. I'm sure lots of men are happy with the current state of equality and are more concerned with figuring out how to navigate things as they are now. I'm happy to acknowledge that things have improved since the days women were seen as property but there is so much more to do before society is truly equal. It's not just about gender, but race, sexuality, class etc.
Just for clarification, can we all agree that each and every single one of us can predict everything that @lilbuddha is going to say on this thread? So how about we all just append what we think she will respond to us such that she doesn't need to bother. Or is that robbing the joy from such an obvious hobby horse to ride?
@Marvin the Martian , perhaps the differentiation you're seeking is "intrinsic personal attributes that directly caused people to be either chattel or killed". Is that sufficient for having a day to say "We're people too!" ? In, like, a way that is ridiculously unnecessary for men.
In an innocent world, I'd be more than happy to have a day for everybody who wanted one. In this world, as RooK says, certain things are predictable. And tedious. So, so tedious.
Also, the possibility exists that the increase in masculine suicides is in some, perhaps even many, cases a response to a perceived loss of status as gender inequality ratios begin to shift in some societies.
If one has spent a lifetime invested (consciously or unconsciously) in the notion that one's manhood requires "owning" and controlling the female members of one's household (their sexual behavior, reproduction, social roles, household and/or financial contributions, etc.), societal changes in that model can be extremely threatening to those who hold it. If you consider your role to be the male breadwinner and your wife takes a job pulling down far more money . . . If you consider the household chores / childrearing / care of the family's aging or ill . . . to be "women's work" from which you're exempted by sex, etc. . . .
I'm not saying these are not genuine issues. They are. How do we help men and women both recognize and achieve positive relationships, healthy families, and meaningful work?
How do we help alter unhelpful paradigms and replace them with models that allow any human to reach his/her "best future?"
In part, this results from a misunderstanding of feminism as "putting women up ahead of men." It's not. Equality is not what we achieve when we advance one gender over another. Equality may be fostered by celebrating those who have traditionally be held down (though I'd like to see some evidence for this).
Yes, very likely. That wasn't quite what I was driving at though. I was trying to unlock what Hugal means by men apparently having trouble "finding their way in the world". Because I tend to parse that as "we used to be in charge; what do we do now if we're not?" which doesn't really engage my sympathies, except inasmuch that many of those apparently struggling with that are male victims of toxic masculinity.
Put it another way, I'm asking in what way ones gender directs - or should direct - ones finding of ones place in the world.
I'm with you all the way.
The men I worked with in prison need exactly what you are talking about. Men emerging from toxic modes of behaviour seem to need something to aspire to. Men who are unable to feel or care for their health need safe space.
This forum, indeed shipoffools as a whole, has consistently proved itself unable to have this conversation.
Now then, let's get back on message...'straight white men are all privileged and can't possibly have any issues that merit time or attention.....those people over there have bigger issues, and that means men don't have any'
Burn the ship
Asher
Asher
Asher mentions men in prison needing something to aspire to. There's a starting point. What should we be offering them to which they might aspire, and why is it specifically masculine?
Men created toxic masculinity and men need to lead in changing that. It isn’t going to happen by saying “Yay men!”, it is going to be by addressing the actual problem.
I get that their are men who have been stepped on by the system and cannot see their privilege or even that fail to benefit from it.
That doesn’t change that the system benefits men in the vast majority of cases.
Fuck. Me.
This. This is the problem the ship has in discussing men's stuff.
I'm gonna repeat what quetzalcoatl wrote:
'I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity except for negative stuff.'
Just let that sink in. Then reach for the petrol can, bottle, rag and matches.
Burn the ship
Asher
How about answering people's questions rather than just telling us how hopelessly wrong we all are?
What are the positive masculine distinctives we're all too stupid to see?
@lilbuddha why do you feel you need to contribute to this discussion?
Your glyphosphate style of posting on threads such as this in the past has killed not just weeds but also potential fragile flowers of learning.
It sometimes seems that you don't want to give men the space to learn and change....
Anyway, I'm favouring fire rather than chemicals today...so burn the ship
Asher
OK, remind me of the good things about men, distinctive to them.
For the hard of understanding, I don't think that there are exclusively masculine positives.
My beef is with looking at a section of society and seeing exclusive negatives.
A nice game to play when we're not sure about this kind of thing is to replace one section of society with another. Let's try it:
'I've never seen anything distinctive about feminity except for negative stuff.'
Is that OK? Thought not.
We could move on from gendered labels to insert labels relating to sexuality, ethnicity, religion. None of which would be OK.
It's almost as if @quetzalcoatl just posted that they were sexist. But that can't be the case, cos there would have been a dogpile....
Burn the ship
Asher
It was about society not allowing men to have space to discuss their issues, as they present in (for example) C21 Britain.
Just like is happening here.
If you are strong then help those less strong than yourself.
If you are brave defend those who need it.
If you are clever then use your skills to build a better future.
Respect any female you meet as though she was your mother or your sister.