Can we have one day please

HugalHugal Shipmate
This may be a bit controversial and is definitely a rant.
Men notoriously find it difficult to talk about issues that affect us both personally and wider issues such as the high rate of male suicides and prostate cancer. Yesterday was International Men’s day. A day set aside to do just that. Highlight and discuss men’s issues.
What pissed me off completely was that in threads about it, right across my social media women posted things like it’s always men’s day or it’s men’s day everyday. There are some issues problems which equality across the board but yesterday was chance to get men to open up. Posting stuff like that is s counter productive. Can we not have one day when people can talk about issues that affect men?
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Comments

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Does no one find this an issue? Oh well.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    It took a close male friend of mine 28 years and two suicide attempts to begin sharing on the trauma he had suffered during conscription into a racist war. I agree with you, Hugel.

    My problem is that I don't think an International Men's Day is the appropriate platform to encourage men to speak up about their emotional struggles and the need to resist toxic masculinity: it invites so many problematic comparisons and is always going to draw negative attention because of patriarchal privileges in so many aspects of life. And it isn't great for anyone to have to rely on a single men's day (or women's day, or LGBTQ day or Black History Month) to reach out to men who are traumatised, depressed, suicidal etc. Then there's the hoopla of social media and haters -- really not a safe space for disclosures and cries for help. Matt Haig is amazing in his openness on Twitter but he acknowledges what a tricky medium it can be.

    Would the responses be different if the day was reframed with a more specific focus as Troubled Men Speak Out? Or Men against Toxic Masculinity? Or Depression and Men? In South Africa each August we have campaigns that began as Women's Month and are now called Ending Sexual Violence Against Women and Children. Many argue, in light of the sexual violence against trans people and men in prison, that the campaign should be simply renamed Ending Sexual Violence.
  • I don't really have an issue talking about my mental health (which is not good), and I'm a bit young to be a likely candidate for prostate cancer. IMD didn't come up on my social media feed, and really it's not something that seems particularly relevant to me. Very little I can think of in my life disadvantages me because I'm a man, and IMD mostly smacks of whataboutery; some men saw International Women's Day and then went casting around for male-specific issues they could use to try and justify an IMD. Men aren't subject to systemic oppression in the way women are, so it makes more sense to deal with the specific issues. Yes, there is an issue with how child custody works after separations. Yes, there is an issue with male victims of domestic violence being undersupported. I'm not convinced that IMD helps.
  • It doesn't sound as though the Day is the best way to increase awareness of these issues, but it is a start. It is still hard for men to talk about many issues, but you have to begin somewhere.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Yes it is a start. I will also add it is a day to celebrate men and the positive things about manhood. An antidote to all the negative press.
  • It would be interesting to see if there could be a safe place to talk about this stuff somewhere on the ship - somewhere non-judgy.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    It would be interesting to see if there could be a safe place to talk about this stuff somewhere on the ship - somewhere non-judgy.

    Epiphanies is not 'non judgy', but the hosting is much more hands-on than Purg. Or All Saints for a support thread (but not really 'discussion' as such). But yes, there are places.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Yes it is a start. I will also add it is a day to celebrate men and the positive things about manhood. An antidote to all the negative press.
    OK. So your OP spoke of suicide rate and prostate cancer and those appear to difficult things for men to talk about. That was followed by Mary Louise’ and Arethosemyfeet’s on point posts. So, at this point I’m on board, this is a real issue.
    Then you post this. This is why social media is so harsh on an International Men’s Day.
    Men are celebrated every day. Straight, white men are still king.
    It might seem that “men are under attack” but this is only because others are speaking for themselves.
    Perhaps you did not mean it like it sounds. But the way it comes across, at least to me, is a bit Men’s Rightsish.
    So. Bring awareness to men not being able to discuss and address their mental and physical health? 👍🏽
    Celebrate men? Not so much.
  • I had no clue that there is such a thing as International Men’s Day, much less that it was yesterday. I’m afraid I don’t feel like I missed out on anything.

    With others, I’m all for encouraging discussion about issues that affect men and that men are all too often unwilling or hesitant to talk about. (I question, though, whether an International Men’s Day really helps with that, at least not without lots of explanation.)

    But count me out on “a day to celebrate men and the positive things about manhood.” Aside from the eye-roll inducing concept of it, and I say that as a man, it seems directly counter to encouraging discussion about issues that affect men and that men avoid talking about.

  • The criticism by women is totally justified. That men choose to waste all the days dedicated to men things is entirely their own fault.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    I did not mean it to sound like that. I don’t see why we can’t celebrate manhood and talk about issues that affect us in the same day. Celebrating brings a positive atmosphere and an openness that allows us to talk about issues.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I did not mean it to sound like that. I don’t see why we can’t celebrate manhood and talk about issues that affect us in the same day. Celebrating brings a positive atmosphere and an openness that allows us to talk about issues.

    I don't see what there is to celebrate. The idea that I would celebrate the fact that I am a man makes about as much sense as celebrating my shoe size. Let everyone celebrate being an individual and leave it at that.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    I did not mean it to sound like that. I don’t see why we can’t celebrate manhood and talk about issues that affect us in the same day. Celebrating brings a positive atmosphere and an openness that allows us to talk about issues.

    Largely because there’s nothing in particular to celebrate. Speaking as a man. What’s manhood? Being a dick? Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?
    No.
    Toxic masculinity is a problem. But positive awesome manhood isn’t.

  • As I said above, there are better boards to discuss this potentially difficult and painful subject than HELL.

    Seriously, dudes. Unless you actually want lilBuddha acting like a Reaper drone on your feels, start a new thread somewhere else.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    And until there's some sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome manhood," we'll have a tough time celebrating this.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    How the hell are men supposed to be a positive role model to boys if there is nothing positive about masculinity. Why is there such a crappy idea of men in the Ship. Not all men are Bastards. Some of us are actually quite nice. What being a man means has and is changing. We are always going to be a bit behind. Let’s give men a boost instead of kicking them in the balls
  • ECraigR wrote: »
    Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?

    Is there anything special about women that men or gender queer or others don't have?
    Ohher wrote: »
    And until there's some sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome manhood," we'll have a tough time celebrating this.

    I'm not aware of any sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome womanhood", but that doesn't seem to stop us celebrating it.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Well, how about you provide your own list of traits which qualify for membership in the "positive awesome manhood" club?

    Personally (though I could be wrong), I suspect we'll find enough overlap among "positive awesome manhood," "positive awesome womanhood," and "positive awesome personhood" as to render this whole discussion moot.

    As to the rest, I find myself living inside a culture in which men are richer than women, men have more power than women, men have more leisure than women, and men enjoy more privilege than women. I also find myself living inside a culture in which men pose genuine threats to women's lives, health and safety. Generally speaking, of course; individual exceptions always apply.

    By all means, help me understand what it is about this situation that I, as a woman, should be celebrating.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    How the hell are men supposed to be a positive role model to boys if there is nothing positive about masculinity. Why is there such a crappy idea of men in the Ship. Not all men are Bastards. Some of us are actually quite nice. What being a man means has and is changing. We are always going to be a bit behind. Let’s give men a boost instead of kicking them in the balls
    I do not have a crappy idea of men at all. I know good and well that not all men are bastards; the vast majority of men that I have know are not and are, indeed, good people. Many of them have been very good role models. I don't need a day celebrating "positive awesome manhood" (whatever that is) to help me understand that.

    It has nothing to do with thinking there is nothing positive about (healthy) masculinity, and lots to do with thinking that there's something pretty bizarre and totally missing-the-point about setting aside a day to "celebrate" masculinity, however that is understood.

  • *sigh*

    Part of good masculinity is realising it's really stupid to paint a target on yourself and run through a firing range. So, go ahead, discuss this all you want, right here. In (checks top of board) Hell.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited November 2019
    The name needs a re-do as it just sounds like a bunch of anti-feminist men having a snark about International Women's Day. And it's going to be responded too accordingly. Because, compared to most women, men get a much better deal in terms of opportunities, status, power etc. Heck, girls even have to pay extra for identical products because they're pink and we earn less. (I hate pink btw).

    But a day to raise awareness of men's mental health issues and encourage them to seek support / help given the rate of suicide among men under thirty sounds like an excellent plan.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    This is Hell. As for as I know I am allowed to rant and I said It was a rant in my OP. I have been up front. I very practically never post these kinds of posts but I am on this subject.
    In my place of work men do not get better treated than women. In fact we are about to appoint a female chair. Things are not perfect on all accounts bit they are changing. As I said there’s are good men and bad men. There is a tendency for all men to be painted the same.
    I don’t give a toss for having a target on my back I am passionate about this.
    Ohher the list of positives about men are similar to the ones about women, with some gender specific exceptions. They are still positive. Because of the acts of a group of women I was pushed to near suicide. They treated me like shit. They had already underhandedly forced some men they didn’t like to leave. My body is not lying under a tube train because I got out. I don’t judge all women by the way they acted.
    Let’s build men up.
  • ECraigRECraigR Castaway
    edited November 2019
    ECraigR wrote: »
    Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?

    Is there anything special about women that men or gender queer or others don't have?

    I'm not aware of any sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome womanhood", but that doesn't seem to stop us celebrating it.

    Nope. But women and gender queer people face disproportionate oppression and other difficulties. Celebrating them for overcoming systematic adversity that men don’t face seems fine to me.

    I don’t hate men, being a man, but I can recognize our benefits in life.

    Waiting for lb’s drone strike now.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    This is Hell. As for as I know I am allowed to rant and I said It was a rant in my OP. I have been up front. I very practically never post these kinds of posts but I am on this subject.
    In my place of work men do not get better treated than women. In fact we are about to appoint a female chair. Things are not perfect on all accounts bit they are changing. As I said there’s are good men and bad men. There is a tendency for all men to be painted the same.
    I don’t give a toss for having a target on my back I am passionate about this.
    Ohher the list of positives about men are similar to the ones about women, with some gender specific exceptions. They are still positive. Because of the acts of a group of women I was pushed to near suicide. They treated me like shit. They had already underhandedly forced some men they didn’t like to leave. My body is not lying under a tube train because I got out. I don’t judge all women by the way they acted.
    Let’s build men up.
    Being treated poorly is wrong.
    But it does not mean that men are poorly treated in the main.
    One can go to the American South and probably find a workplace in which black people are treated better than white ones. This does not change that the system is biased in favour of white people.
    Everyday really is celebrate men day. The mental and physical health issues are because the wrong things about masculinity are celebrated.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    As I said things are not perfect but they are changing. We won’t get full equality over night. That will come quicker if we emphasise the positive changes men have made and not make a big deal about where we are playing catch up.
  • ECraigR wrote: »
    Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?

    Is there anything special about women that men or gender queer or others don't have?
    Ohher wrote: »
    And until there's some sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome manhood," we'll have a tough time celebrating this.

    I'm not aware of any sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome womanhood", but that doesn't seem to stop us celebrating it.
    Not shocked that you don't get it. But I will try to explain.
    The world is a straight, white man's world. Others celebrating what they are is not claiming superiority, but equality. It is a reaction to being oppressed. Men are people too! is a reaction to threat of losing their privileged position.
  • ECraigR wrote: »
    ECraigR wrote: »
    Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?

    Is there anything special about women that men or gender queer or others don't have?

    I'm not aware of any sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome womanhood", but that doesn't seem to stop us celebrating it.

    Nope. But women and gender queer people face disproportionate oppression and other difficulties. Celebrating them for overcoming systematic adversity that men don’t face seems fine to me.

    I don’t hate men, being a man, but I can recognize our benefits in life.

    Waiting for lb’s drone strike now.
    Me too! What I've said on this thread has been said by men as well, so...

  • Why is a celebration of men or manhood in hell? I am reluctant to discuss stuff in such a context, although I worked with men in therapy for decades. I like "reaper drone", (Doc Tor).
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Because I ranted in the OP and later.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    ECraigR wrote: »
    Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?

    Is there anything special about women that men or gender queer or others don't have?
    Ohher wrote: »
    And until there's some sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome manhood," we'll have a tough time celebrating this.

    I'm not aware of any sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome womanhood", but that doesn't seem to stop us celebrating it.
    Not shocked that you don't get it. But I will try to explain.
    The world is a straight, white man's world. Others celebrating what they are is not claiming superiority, but equality. It is a reaction to being oppressed. Men are people too! is a reaction to threat of losing their privileged position.

    I disagree. It is men trying to find their place in a changing world. In a World were old certainties are no more. That is not the same as losing privilege. Most men I know are happy with equality.
  • When men do not earn more than women, when they do not by far occupy more positions of power than women, when the victims of rape are not shamed, etc. then I will accept the world has changed. There is progress, to be sure. But it is still a man's world.

    I know men who are completely happy with equality. I know men who are completely unhappy with it. Most I know are in the middle somewhere.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    My place in the world is (amongst other things) being a computer engineer, tabletop gamer and game writer, home brewer, aquarist, musician, parent and partner.

    I'm not sure how being a man particularly impacts on any of that, besides making some of it more socially acceptable.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    ECraigR wrote: »
    Is there anything special about men that women or gender queer or others don’t have?

    Is there anything special about women that men or gender queer or others don't have?
    Ohher wrote: »
    And until there's some sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome manhood," we'll have a tough time celebrating this.

    I'm not aware of any sort of general agreement about what constitutes "positive awesome womanhood", but that doesn't seem to stop us celebrating it.
    Not shocked that you don't get it. But I will try to explain.
    The world is a straight, white man's world. Others celebrating what they are is not claiming superiority, but equality. It is a reaction to being oppressed. Men are people too! is a reaction to threat of losing their privileged position.

    I disagree. It is men trying to find their place in a changing world. In a World were old certainties are no more. That is not the same as losing privilege. Most men I know are happy with equality.

    Whether you're happy with equality depends on what side of the fence you're on. I'm sure lots of men are happy with the current state of equality and are more concerned with figuring out how to navigate things as they are now. I'm happy to acknowledge that things have improved since the days women were seen as property but there is so much more to do before society is truly equal. It's not just about gender, but race, sexuality, class etc.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Yes, yes. Very rant-y. [pats Hugal on the head]

    Just for clarification, can we all agree that each and every single one of us can predict everything that @lilbuddha is going to say on this thread? So how about we all just append what we think she will respond to us such that she doesn't need to bother. Or is that robbing the joy from such an obvious hobby horse to ride?

    @Marvin the Martian , perhaps the differentiation you're seeking is "intrinsic personal attributes that directly caused people to be either chattel or killed". Is that sufficient for having a day to say "We're people too!" ? In, like, a way that is ridiculously unnecessary for men.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    KarlLB wrote: »
    My place in the world is (amongst other things) being a computer engineer, tabletop gamer and game writer, home brewer, aquarist, musician, parent and partner.

    I'm not sure how being a man particularly impacts on any of that, besides making some of it more socially acceptable.
    Being a man very likely gave you an advantage over women in getting that job.

  • I like guys. I think that as a group, they are fascinating, fun and absurd. (I like women too, and --well, basically everybody if we're speaking of groups. Individuals can be assholes.)

    In an innocent world, I'd be more than happy to have a day for everybody who wanted one. In this world, as RooK says, certain things are predictable. And tedious. So, so tedious.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Still waiting for a list of traits which qualify for membership in the "positive awesome manhood" club.

    Also, the possibility exists that the increase in masculine suicides is in some, perhaps even many, cases a response to a perceived loss of status as gender inequality ratios begin to shift in some societies.

    If one has spent a lifetime invested (consciously or unconsciously) in the notion that one's manhood requires "owning" and controlling the female members of one's household (their sexual behavior, reproduction, social roles, household and/or financial contributions, etc.), societal changes in that model can be extremely threatening to those who hold it. If you consider your role to be the male breadwinner and your wife takes a job pulling down far more money . . . If you consider the household chores / childrearing / care of the family's aging or ill . . . to be "women's work" from which you're exempted by sex, etc. . . .

    I'm not saying these are not genuine issues. They are. How do we help men and women both recognize and achieve positive relationships, healthy families, and meaningful work?
    How do we help alter unhelpful paradigms and replace them with models that allow any human to reach his/her "best future?"

    In part, this results from a misunderstanding of feminism as "putting women up ahead of men." It's not. Equality is not what we achieve when we advance one gender over another. Equality may be fostered by celebrating those who have traditionally be held down (though I'd like to see some evidence for this).

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    My place in the world is (amongst other things) being a computer engineer, tabletop gamer and game writer, home brewer, aquarist, musician, parent and partner.

    I'm not sure how being a man particularly impacts on any of that, besides making some of it more socially acceptable.
    Being a man very likely gave you an advantage over women in getting that job.

    Yes, very likely. That wasn't quite what I was driving at though. I was trying to unlock what Hugal means by men apparently having trouble "finding their way in the world". Because I tend to parse that as "we used to be in charge; what do we do now if we're not?" which doesn't really engage my sympathies, except inasmuch that many of those apparently struggling with that are male victims of toxic masculinity.

    Put it another way, I'm asking in what way ones gender directs - or should direct - ones finding of ones place in the world.
  • @Hugal

    I'm with you all the way.

    The men I worked with in prison need exactly what you are talking about. Men emerging from toxic modes of behaviour seem to need something to aspire to. Men who are unable to feel or care for their health need safe space.

    This forum, indeed shipoffools as a whole, has consistently proved itself unable to have this conversation.

    Now then, let's get back on message...'straight white men are all privileged and can't possibly have any issues that merit time or attention.....those people over there have bigger issues, and that means men don't have any'

    Burn the ship

    Asher

    Asher
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    When this has come up before, it foundered on a lack of clarity on exactly what the positive masculinity we might seek to promote actually looked like, and in what way it was distinctively masculine. This is a conversation we can have, but that's where it has failed before, for me at any rate.

    Asher mentions men in prison needing something to aspire to. There's a starting point. What should we be offering them to which they might aspire, and why is it specifically masculine?
  • Yes, I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity, except for negative stuff. I mean, the positive stuff, warmth, engagement, strength, bravery, etc., is also found in women. But men can certainly find each other in positive ways.
  • asher wrote: »
    @Hugal

    I'm with you all the way.

    The men I worked with in prison need exactly what you are talking about. Men emerging from toxic modes of behaviour seem to need something to aspire to. Men who are unable to feel or care for their health need safe space.

    This forum, indeed shipoffools as a whole, has consistently proved itself unable to have this conversation.

    Now then, let's get back on message...'straight white men are all privileged and can't possibly have any issues that merit time or attention.....those people over there have bigger issues, and that means men don't have any'
    Yeah, because that is what anyone is saying. 🙄
    Men created toxic masculinity and men need to lead in changing that. It isn’t going to happen by saying “Yay men!”, it is going to be by addressing the actual problem.
    I get that their are men who have been stepped on by the system and cannot see their privilege or even that fail to benefit from it.
    That doesn’t change that the system benefits men in the vast majority of cases.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2019
    Yes, I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity, except for negative stuff. I mean, the positive stuff, warmth, engagement, strength, bravery, etc., is also found in women. But men can certainly find each other in positive ways.

    Fuck. Me.

    This. This is the problem the ship has in discussing men's stuff.

    I'm gonna repeat what quetzalcoatl wrote:

    'I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity except for negative stuff.'

    Just let that sink in. Then reach for the petrol can, bottle, rag and matches.

    Burn the ship

    Asher

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    asher wrote: »
    Yes, I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity, except for negative stuff. I mean, the positive stuff, warmth, engagement, strength, bravery, etc., is also found in women. But men can certainly find each other in positive ways.

    Fuck. Me.

    This. This is the problem the ship has in discussing men's stuff.

    I'm gonna repeat what quetzalcoatl wrote:

    'I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity except for negative stuff.'

    Just let that sink in. Then reach for the petrol can, bottle, rag and matches.

    Burn the ship

    Asher

    How about answering people's questions rather than just telling us how hopelessly wrong we all are?

    What are the positive masculine distinctives we're all too stupid to see?
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    @Hugal

    I'm with you all the way.

    The men I worked with in prison need exactly what you are talking about. Men emerging from toxic modes of behaviour seem to need something to aspire to. Men who are unable to feel or care for their health need safe space.

    This forum, indeed shipoffools as a whole, has consistently proved itself unable to have this conversation.

    Now then, let's get back on message...'straight white men are all privileged and can't possibly have any issues that merit time or attention.....those people over there have bigger issues, and that means men don't have any'
    Yeah, because that is what anyone is saying. 🙄
    Men created toxic masculinity and men need to lead in changing that. It isn’t going to happen by saying “Yay men!”, it is going to be by addressing the actual problem.
    I get that their are men who have been stepped on by the system and cannot see their privilege or even that fail to benefit from it.
    That doesn’t change that the system benefits men in the vast majority of cases.

    @lilbuddha why do you feel you need to contribute to this discussion?

    Your glyphosphate style of posting on threads such as this in the past has killed not just weeds but also potential fragile flowers of learning.

    It sometimes seems that you don't want to give men the space to learn and change....

    Anyway, I'm favouring fire rather than chemicals today...so burn the ship

    Asher
  • asher wrote: »
    Yes, I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity, except for negative stuff. I mean, the positive stuff, warmth, engagement, strength, bravery, etc., is also found in women. But men can certainly find each other in positive ways.

    Fuck. Me.

    This. This is the problem the ship has in discussing men's stuff.

    I'm gonna repeat what quetzalcoatl wrote:

    'I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity except for negative stuff.'

    Just let that sink in. Then reach for the petrol can, bottle, rag and matches.

    Burn the ship

    Asher

    OK, remind me of the good things about men, distinctive to them.
  • @quetzalcoatl @KarlLB

    For the hard of understanding, I don't think that there are exclusively masculine positives.

    My beef is with looking at a section of society and seeing exclusive negatives.

    A nice game to play when we're not sure about this kind of thing is to replace one section of society with another. Let's try it:

    'I've never seen anything distinctive about feminity except for negative stuff.'

    Is that OK? Thought not.

    We could move on from gendered labels to insert labels relating to sexuality, ethnicity, religion. None of which would be OK.

    It's almost as if @quetzalcoatl just posted that they were sexist. But that can't be the case, cos there would have been a dogpile....

    Burn the ship

    Asher
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2019
    and this fucking thread was never about distinctive positive masculine qualities.

    It was about society not allowing men to have space to discuss their issues, as they present in (for example) C21 Britain.

    Just like is happening here.
  • Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.
  • To boys growing up:
    If you are strong then help those less strong than yourself.
    If you are brave defend those who need it.
    If you are clever then use your skills to build a better future.
    Respect any female you meet as though she was your mother or your sister.
This discussion has been closed.