Can we have one day please

245

Comments

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    When men do not earn more than women, when they do not by far occupy more positions of power than women, when the victims of rape are not shamed, etc. then I will accept the world has changed. There is progress, to be sure. But it is still a man's world.

    I know men who are completely happy with equality. I know men who are completely unhappy with it. Most I know are in the middle somewhere.

    My wife earns more than me and I said changing not changed.
  • Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher
  • Is masculinity inherent, or societally based? If the latter, does that make it unworthy of being discussed on this thread?
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Is masculinity inherent, or societally based? If the latter, does that make it unworthy of being discussed on this thread?

    Interesting question.

    I think some here see certain negative expressions masculinity as having a global presentation. Now, that's a long way from saying 'inherent', but it also might be some distance away from 'societally based'.

    I don't know whether the issues around mental ill health, neglect of physical health, issues with emotional intimacy, overwork/pressure to provide and so on are particular to the UK or not.

    What about the US @mousethief ?

  • asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    I had to break with this topic earlier this year because it was mashing too many of my hot buttons. it still does.

    The thing that I have noticed about men in general is that my experience of them as individuals is pretty positive all around. My partner, my father, my neighbors, my friends, they all seem to know how to conduct themselves individually as well rounded human beings (as much as any of us is able to).

    It just seems to me that when men assemble as a group, something happens.

    For example.

    I belong to a network of entrepreneurs who have all taken an intensive course that teaches a radically different - cooperative and consensus-based - model of corporate governance. The foundation of consensus building and cooperation and building the win-win is what made me think there's a pace for me, as a woman, in that kind of business dynamic.

    The goal of such thinking is to create a win-win for small and medium sized businesses and investors who want more transparency, long term growth and stability and better operating conditions for smaller enterprises who have difficulty growing in an adversarial market system with limited access to large pools of capital.

    Just this week, a man in the group said "Let's create a leaderboard where we can rank the members with the most deals., biggest gains ... blah blah blah..."

    And, unsurprisingly, most of the male members were on board with this. I was like *facepalm* - the death of a great idea.

    And I couldn't help but wonder how many of them were NOT on board but didn't want to object for fear of being ridiculed.

    As if implementing this new idea isn't challenging enough we now have to have winners and losers within the group. Great. Let's just fragment all of our energy and resources while we make this a game of who gets the most points because it's just not fun unless somebody is the winner and somebody else is the loser.

    When I have spoken to the individual members they are all great guys and several are people I aim to be in partnership with, but there's something about the majority-male group dynamic that just seems to bring out the worst in many, and others seem to go along just to get along.

    And let me be clear I will not be the lone feminine voice piping up with "But what about....?" If the men in the group can't see what's wrong with this internal competition idea then I'm just going to walk away.



    AFF






  • asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?

    Who did I threaten?
  • This feels a bit of a minefield..... but I'll add these thoughts: IMHO Societal change takes bravery and risk. Both are present on the part of those seeking change, and on the part of those resisting change. It is only in acknowledging both the bravery and the risk the 'other' experiences that we can come to common ground. Any society seeking wholeness for itself and its members must take those steps.

    This past June we gay folk in the US celebrated the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots. Those riots did not bring immediate change, but were the spark that ignited many a fire, many a discusison, many a risk. A 'Pride Day' march doesn't accomplish that in one afternoon..... just consider the insult and anger regarding the ban of the spouses of Gay/Lesbian bishops at the next Lambeth Conference.
  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?

    Who did I threaten?

    The ship. Petrol can, rags, matches, burn the ship. Your words.
  • I am a man. In Canada, Bell Let's Talk Day is an appropriate place to discuss mental health issues. Under patriarchy, every day is Men's Day. WTF is masculinity other than a cultural construct.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    asher wrote: »
    In my mind, the context for this thread is:
    ...
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    No one in Hell has to give a shit about your feelings. If you just want to rant, you're in the right place. If you want people to be nice and supportive, get a fucking clue and go start a thread in All Saints. If you want a reasonable discussion, start a thread in Purgatory, and this time see if you can list something positive about masculinity and men that is unique to them; that thread foundered earlier this year not because "the ship" couldn't find anything positive in masculinity but because people like you couldn't support their own claims.

    You want to know why there are support groups for women and walks for breast cancer and shit like that? Because women organized them. So go organize a group already. You and @Hugal should get your friends together and start groups and talk about things like this. Instead, you're whining on the internet.
  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?

    Who did I threaten?

    The ship. Petrol can, rags, matches, burn the ship. Your words.

    I'm. On. The. Ship. Too.

    The. Ship. Is. Not. Real.

    Hyperbole: noun: exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally.
  • Is there any positive (or negative) that ONLY women possess? Or any other group? I'm not sure that sweeping generalisations are going to help.
  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?

    Who did I threaten?

    The ship. Petrol can, rags, matches, burn the ship. Your words.

    I'm. On. The. Ship. Too.

    The. Ship. Is. Not. Real.

    Hyperbole: noun: exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally.

    Ah yes, when MPs get threatened, the bully often say, only a joke.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    In my mind, the context for this thread is:
    ...
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    No one in Hell has to give a shit about your feelings. If you just want to rant, you're in the right place. If you want people to be nice and supportive, get a fucking clue and go start a thread in All Saints. If you want a reasonable discussion, start a thread in Purgatory, and this time see if you can list something positive about masculinity and men that is unique to them; that thread foundered earlier this year not because "the ship" couldn't find anything positive in masculinity but because people like you couldn't support their own claims.

    You want to know why there are support groups for women and walks for breast cancer and shit like that? Because women organized them. So go organize a group already. You and @Hugal should get your friends together and start groups and talk about things like this. Instead, you're whining on the internet.

    Top One.

    Do you know what? I think you're right. I reckon All Saints would be the right place. I'll message @Hugal about it and see if we want to give it a run.

    I pitched in here not because I think hell is the right place, but to put my shoulder to the wheel with Hugal.

    You're right about women's spaces. In the past there were lots of male spaces, but they have been (quite rightly) removed, and there is a void that remains to be filled.

    Whilst you are very clear that you don't give a shit, I remain pissed that shipmates deem in reasonable to find lots of distinctive negatives about masculinity. I do not see that done to any other cultural expression of innate difference.

    I think the demand for distinctive positives is a straw man - there aren't any - but the assertion of distinctive negatives is prejudice.

    I said 'I'm really angry with the ship' cos @quetzalcoatl was getting the vapours over me saying the much more Hellish 'Burn the Ship'. Trying to listen, y'know.

    Ash-er





  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?

    Who did I threaten?

    The ship. Petrol can, rags, matches, burn the ship. Your words.

    I'm. On. The. Ship. Too.

    The. Ship. Is. Not. Real.

    Hyperbole: noun: exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally.

    Ah yes, when MPs get threatened, the bully often say, only a joke.

    So, you say I threaten the ship.

    Yes, hyperbolically I threatened an online community, in a ludic way that referenced my online name (Ash-er)

    And then you directly link this to a scenario where individuals have been murdered recently.....

    Nice one.



  • I haven't got the vapours. I don't like threats of violence, I already get them via work.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    asher wrote: »
    I think the demand for distinctive positives is a straw man - there aren't any - but the assertion of distinctive negatives is prejudice.
    I don't think it's a straw man. When the OP has said (in a post after the OP) that in addition to being an opportunity to talk about issues that confront men in specific ways, International Men's Day can also be "a day to celebrate men and the positive things about manhood," it seems reasonable to ask "exactly what 'positive things about manhood' do you have in mind?"

  • I haven't got the vapours. I don't like threats of violence, I already get them via work.

    I am sorry. For distress caused I apologise. Your post gives me useful context.


  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?

    Who did I threaten?

    The ship. Petrol can, rags, matches, burn the ship. Your words.

    I'm. On. The. Ship. Too.

    The. Ship. Is. Not. Real.

    Hyperbole: noun: exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally.

    Ah yes, when MPs get threatened, the bully often say, only a joke.

    So, you say I threaten the ship.

    Yes, hyperbolically I threatened an online community, in a ludic way that referenced my online name (Ash-er)

    And then you directly link this to a scenario where individuals have been murdered recently.....

    Nice one.



    You seem quite casual about your own threats of violence. I get them elsewhere, and didn't expect them here.
  • Superb stuff. Unlike Asher, I have allot of faith in Shipmates, and a brief squizz at this thread shows that people are showing tremendous restraint in the face, frankly, of @Hugal 's invitation to punch him.

    I want no part of celebrating manhood. It is a boneheaded idea. What I am interested in is a discussion about what manhood is or should be; how men should conduct themselves around issues of gender; how men should confront our own violence and those of our brothers; how men deal with the traditional roles assigned to them and perceived failure; and issues generally around health and wellbeing. Such discussions may or may not evoke something like celebration, but I would prefer to call it mutual help and support.

    These are not topics for Hell, but perhaps a discussion could be useful in a thread started in epiphanies. I will think about a thread-starter there, but if someone else beats me to it, that would be great.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Superb stuff. Unlike Asher, I have allot of faith in Shipmates, and a brief squizz at this thread shows that people are showing tremendous restraint in the face, frankly, of @Hugal 's invitation to punch him.

    I want no part of celebrating manhood. It is a boneheaded idea. What I am interested in is a discussion about what manhood is or should be; how men should conduct themselves around issues of gender; how men should confront our own violence and those of our brothers; how men deal with the traditional roles assigned to them and perceived failure; and issues generally around health and wellbeing. Such discussions may or may not evoke something like celebration, but I would prefer to call it mutual help and support.

    These are not topics for Hell, but perhaps a discussion could be useful in a thread started in epiphanies. I will think about a thread-starter there, but if someone else beats me to it, that would be great.

    I've messaged the All SAints hosts about a discussion there. IMO it would sit better there.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    I think the demand for distinctive positives is a straw man - there aren't any - but the assertion of distinctive negatives is prejudice.
    I don't think it's a straw man. When the OP has said (in a post after the OP) that in addition to being an opportunity to talk about issues that confront men in specific ways, International Men's Day can also be "a day to celebrate men and the positive things about manhood," it seems reasonable to ask "exactly what 'positive things about manhood' do you have in mind?"

    Men doing positive things.
  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    Whereas you are really allowing loads of space for people to discuss. No, we get, fuck me, burn the ship, etc.

    This is perhaps fair comment.

    In my mind, the context for this thread is:

    1. The Gee-d nit picking pedant thread, (Hell) where his personal experience of abuse was diminished on the grounds of his gender. I note that apologies were given. (April/May 2019)
    2. The manifestations of toxic masculinity and what we should do about it thread, (Hell) which rarely strayed beyond the first half it its title. (July 2019)
    3. The positive masculinity thread (Purgatory) that foundered on the rocks of the ship finding nothing positive in masculinity (Mayish 2019)

    I would be delighted if this thread proves to be the exception to discussion around such areas on the ship.

    @Hugal has tried before to have grown up discussions about issues that men face, and how men might be supported to grow and florish. They have failed.

    I'm still really angry with the ship.

    Asher

    So threatening violence is part of the discussion?

    Who did I threaten?

    The ship. Petrol can, rags, matches, burn the ship. Your words.

    I'm. On. The. Ship. Too.

    The. Ship. Is. Not. Real.

    Hyperbole: noun: exaggerated statements not meant to be taken literally.

    Ah yes, when MPs get threatened, the bully often say, only a joke.

    MPs are real people in meatspace that can actually be harmed with petrol and a match. The ship is an idea, a function, that does not exist in the physical world and as such talk of using physical violence against it MUST PERFORCE be metaphorical.
  • asher wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Is masculinity inherent, or societally based? If the latter, does that make it unworthy of being discussed on this thread?

    Interesting question.

    I think some here see certain negative expressions masculinity as having a global presentation. Now, that's a long way from saying 'inherent', but it also might be some distance away from 'societally based'.

    I don't know whether the issues around mental ill health, neglect of physical health, issues with emotional intimacy, overwork/pressure to provide and so on are particular to the UK or not.

    What about the US @mousethief ?

    All of those issues exist here. The toxic idea that you have to "man up" and tough it out rather than ask for help is killing men. Transition away from the idea to the man as a breadwinner, a man gaining his identity, familial and societal role, from being the breadwinner, is difficult thing for many men. Just saying "get over it" doesn't help; you're asking people to try to undo a lifetime (50 or 60 years in some instances) of programming and brainwashing and reinforcement, and do it instantly. There is no help to do this. Men unable to do it on a dime are ridiculed and made to feel (guess what) unmanly. We should be discussing this, providing support for these men, helping them transition. Saying "there's nothing special about being a man," even if true, only adds salt to the wound. Frankly I don't know how to square this circle. But ridicule and spite aren't it.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    . What I am interested in is a discussion about what manhood is or should be; how men should conduct themselves around issues of gender; how men should confront our own violence and those of our brothers; how men deal with the traditional roles assigned to them and perceived failure; and issues generally around health and wellbeing.

    YES, YES, YES, please.
  • I haven't got the vapours. I don't like threats of violence, I already get them via work.
    You've held yourself out as some form of counsellor or therapist.
    Why is a celebration of men or manhood in hell? I am reluctant to discuss stuff in such a context, although I worked with men in therapy for decades. I like "reaper drone", (Doc Tor).

    You must have specialized.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Is masculinity inherent, or societally based? If the latter, does that make it unworthy of being discussed on this thread?

    Interesting question.

    I think some here see certain negative expressions masculinity as having a global presentation. Now, that's a long way from saying 'inherent', but it also might be some distance away from 'societally based'.

    I don't know whether the issues around mental ill health, neglect of physical health, issues with emotional intimacy, overwork/pressure to provide and so on are particular to the UK or not.

    What about the US @mousethief ?

    All of those issues exist here. The toxic idea that you have to "man up" and tough it out rather than ask for help is killing men. Transition away from the idea to the man as a breadwinner, a man gaining his identity, familial and societal role, from being the breadwinner, is difficult thing for many men. Just saying "get over it" doesn't help; you're asking people to try to undo a lifetime (50 or 60 years in some instances) of programming and brainwashing and reinforcement, and do it instantly. There is no help to do this. Men unable to do it on a dime are ridiculed and made to feel (guess what) unmanly. We should be discussing this, providing support for these men, helping them transition. Saying "there's nothing special about being a man," even if true, only adds salt to the wound. Frankly I don't know how to square this circle. But ridicule and spite aren't it.

    Preach it brother. That's my life.

    What's your call? All Saints or Epiphanies?
  • My call would be Epiphanies. There's already been some pretty stiff opposition to the whole existence of this conversation. That can be tempered in Epiphanies.
  • I am clearly talking to my fucking self here. Perhaps we could have an annual Read for Comprehension Day too.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    They ignored you because you're a man.
  • I think they ignored me because they're men.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    They should retire to their fainting couches.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Suspended
    edited November 2019
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I think that's because men's organisation skills tend to be about being the best, talking themselves up, doing things to be seen etc. Even if there are men who are not like that, they tend to be shouted down by the loud, abrasive men.

    Women seem to be much more able to organise things collectively, taking account of difference, talking calmly and working out of the limelight.

    Not all men, not all women.

    But enough for it to be a pattern.

  • I agree with Doc Tor, and others, that a place where a reasoned discussion of this can take place is best. It seems like Epiphanies would be well-suited for the topic.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I am clearly talking to my fucking self here. Perhaps we could have an annual Read for Comprehension Day too.

    Love you
  • Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I think that's because men's organisation skills tend to be about being the best, talking themselves up, doing things to be seen etc. Even if there are men who are not like that, they tend to be shouted down by the loud, abrasive men.

    Women seem to be much more able to organise things collectively, taking account of difference, talking calmly and working out of the limelight.

    Not all men, not all women.

    But enough for it to be a pattern.

    Just fuck off. That is so sexist I don't know where to start.
  • There may well need to be particular days in the calendar to highlight men's health.

    But the problem is that if one calls it "international mens day", that inevitably becomes part of a particular narrative, spread by a particular type of person. The narrative (often) being "oh, so you are allowed to have a Women's Day, a Black history month, a gay fortnight, a trans acrobat six months but we are not allowed to have a single day where we can celebrate white masculinity.."

    And then this becomes the dominant conversation.

    So if you are an organisation trying to increase the numbers of women and other minorities in a historically male dominated field, then all you hear is "so when are you going to do something for men," even when the white men already have 99% of the participation and privilege within that field.

    Or if you are group writing a Code of Conduct to stop creepy men saying and doing questionable things at academic conferences (which is unfortunately more common that sone might believe and which puts women and other minorities off attending), you get constant pushback.

    If one could have the International Men's Day without having to listen to the kinds of men who hassle people trying to encourage diversity then I'd be all for it.
  • asher wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I think that's because men's organisation skills tend to be about being the best, talking themselves up, doing things to be seen etc. Even if there are men who are not like that, they tend to be shouted down by the loud, abrasive men.

    Women seem to be much more able to organise things collectively, taking account of difference, talking calmly and working out of the limelight.

    Not all men, not all women.

    But enough for it to be a pattern.

    Just fuck off. That is so sexist I don't know where to start.

    Good to know.
  • Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I've been waiting for them. They seem reluctant to get started.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I've been waiting for them. They seem reluctant to get started.

    Yeah, I was pinning all my hopes on @Ruth but she told me us men had to do all the work ourselves.....
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I've been waiting for them. They seem reluctant to get started.

    I can think of one men's health campaign which, I believe, was largely a women's initiative.

    And I've seen quite a number of different groups run by aggressive men fall apart.
  • asher wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I've been waiting for them. They seem reluctant to get started.

    Yeah, I was pinning all my hopes on @Ruth but she told me us men had to do all the work ourselves.....

    Wait, isn't that sexist?
  • Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    When men do not earn more than women, when they do not by far occupy more positions of power than women, when the victims of rape are not shamed, etc. then I will accept the world has changed. There is progress, to be sure. But it is still a man's world.

    I know men who are completely happy with equality. I know men who are completely unhappy with it. Most I know are in the middle somewhere.

    My wife earns more than me and I said changing not changed.
    An issue, IME, is that the changes are far less than the “What about Men?” types appear to acknowledge.
    That your wife earns more than you tells us very little without context. However, assuming all other things are equal, that is a rarity. And that is part of the issue with the discussion. That something happens doesn't make it the example of the the way things work the majority of the time.
    A black man was president of the US. Do you think that means the US has no problem with discrimination?
    To me that means America has progressed, but not enough for white people to legitimately fear for their place.*
    Same for men, IME.
    Another issue with this discussion is individual perception/situation v general situation.
    A straight, white man might be poor, might have been harassed, etc. and wonder where is their supposed advantage lies. However, it is a group advantage and it is variable. It remains though, that all other things being equalised, being a straight, white man is an advantage to not being one.
    I recently read an article about an Indian woman who had extreme vitiligo. To the point where all her normally visible skin was white. She was thus able to experience the subtle racism that exists directly. Nothing else had changed, so it was a completely equal comparison.
    She knew racism existed, but she got to see the subtle differences even when dealing with people who were not overtly racist.

    tl;dr is that the benefits of being in the group in power are not passes from all disadvantage and the subtle effects of discrimination are not always clear. So perception and reality do not always match.

    *Similar for the UK, but the US give a clearer example of the gap between individual and group progress. In that example at least.
  • Blahblah wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I've been waiting for them. They seem reluctant to get started.

    Yeah, I was pinning all my hopes on @Ruth but she told me us men had to do all the work ourselves.....

    Wait, isn't that sexist?

    could you organise it for us? Thanks
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Blahblah wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I've been waiting for them. They seem reluctant to get started.

    Yeah, I was pinning all my hopes on @Ruth but she told me us men had to do all the work ourselves.....

    Wait, isn't that sexist?

    Yes, and I feel terrible about it, just terrible.
  • asher wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My perception is that if issues about men's health need to be highlighted, there is a much greater chance that something effective will happen if it is women doing the organising.

    I've been waiting for them. They seem reluctant to get started.

    Yeah, I was pinning all my hopes on @Ruth but she told me us men had to do all the work ourselves.....

    Wait, isn't that sexist?

    could you organise it for us? Thanks

    Organise what? What is it actually that you want?
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Ruth wrote: »
    They should retire to their fainting couches.

    Fuck off. The fainting couch is mine. I have my reasons.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    LB Things are not going to change over night. The situation is the situation. It will take a couple of generations to happen. Meanwhile acknowledge things are Not there yet and encourage men to cope with the changes and don’t constantly tell us how crap we are. I am sure you know about self fulfilling prophesies. Keep pointing out how crap men are and look they turn out to crap. Keep showing a boy negatives about men and guess what he becomes a crap man. (These are a bit generalised I grant you but still true).
    Ohher I did clearly say that the positive things about men are similar to women’s if you actually care to read my post. Just because they are similar doesn’t negate the fact they are positive and can be celebrated.
  • Yes, I've never seen anything distinctive about masculinity, except for negative stuff. I mean, the positive stuff, warmth, engagement, strength, bravery, etc., is also found in women. But men can certainly find each other in positive ways.

    IMHO the problem lies with the terms "masculine" and "feminine." It doesn't matter what trait you bring up, you can always find a a man or woman who is the counter-example. Normally this is not a problem for descriptive terms--people are mostly sensible and realize that referring to a group as "black" (for instance) does not mean that no albinos are ever born into that group, and "English-speaking" when used of a group does not mean that there may not be the odd individual who communicates in Spanish or sign language or... It's a rough description, not an absolutely-pedantically-true-under-every-imaginable-circumstance description. And so the terms exist, and are used, and are (usually) useful.

    But quite a few people demand absolute 100% chemical purity of these two terms. And that makes them damned useless, because when a term no longer has an agreed-upon meaning, you might as well pitch it.

    So, I suppose, we must pitch these terms. But that leaves us with no way of articulating certain ideas. To a lot of people, this is a feature, not a bug. But I don't think we are ever the winners when we shut down discussion by destroying the ability to speak on a topic at all.
This discussion has been closed.