Why do we still get crap?

HugalHugal Shipmate
edited December 2019 in Hell
As someone who works in a frontline customer facing role I have to wonder why some customers still treat you as crap. As a servant. Why they vent their anger at you when you are trying to help them with the problem. We are not servants. The problem was almost certainly caused by someone else. Take your attitude and stick it.
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Comments

  • It's a matter of power. Most people are powerless in most of their lives. At work, in their dealings with companies. In most of their lives there are consequences for expressing anger. Dealing with customer service reps gives them a free hit. The target may not be the right one, but they still get to enjoy the swing. If companies and managers imposed consequences rather than trying to placate arseholes it would soon stop.
  • They know that you cannot respond in the appropriate way.

    People are very frustrated these days - at all sorts of things. So often, when they (we) come to be served in some way, we need an outlet.

    I always try to be nice to customer-facing staff. They have it tough.
  • Honestly, I don't wonder at all.

    Customer service is designed, by management, to stand between those who make the bad decisions and the consumers who have to put up with them. You have none of the authority but all of the responsibility to deal with complaints. We know this, but you far too often represent the shield we must batter our way through in order to have our complaints dealt with (not listened to - actually dealt with).

    Sorry. Neither of us invented this system. In a decent and fair world, those on the desk would be given the authority to deal with complaints, up to and including holding management to account for crappy workmanship and sharp practices. It is what it is.

    I have no intention of treating another human being as a servant, but I have no intention of being treated by another human being as a mark in a con.
  • I frequently struggle with this, and find myself saying: "I'm trying to stay calm here. I know what has happened to me is not your fault, and I don't want to take my frustration out on you. But I am furious at the way your company has treated me! Please pass my frustration with X up the line, to someone who makes decisions."
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't wonder at all.

    Customer service is designed, by management, to stand between those who make the bad decisions and the consumers who have to put up with them. You have none of the authority but all of the responsibility to deal with complaints. We know this, but you far too often represent the shield we must batter our way through in order to have our complaints dealt with (not listened to - actually dealt with).

    Sorry. Neither of us invented this system. In a decent and fair world, those on the desk would be given the authority to deal with complaints, up to and including holding management to account for crappy workmanship and sharp practices. It is what it is.

    I have no intention of treating another human being as a servant, but I have no intention of being treated by another human being as a mark in a con.

    When Robert C Townsend ran Avis car rentals he ensured that every new graduate trainee spent a couple of weeks at an airport dealing with customers, including the awkward stuff. Not a few of them didn't make it to Monday lunchtime. I believe the US Marine Corps have a similar scheme in which everyone, including aviators, technicians and administrators dons combat fatigues and becomes a "grunt" for a couple of weeks every year, just to remind them who they are working for.

    More organizations should do this.
  • Subjecting people in a junior position in a large organisation to explosions of wrath and rage, while sometimes understandable, is always going to unfair and frequently counter-productive - or as the old saying goes Lose your temper, Lose the argument.

    In the UK I think a lot of the problem is that we are absolute crap at saying thank you or acknowledging good service/helpful advice. Everyone tells you they "know their rights" but few seem to accept they may have responsibilities too.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin
    edited December 2019
    Bullshit.

    If I lose my temper, it's not because I'm wrong. It's because I'm frustrated beyond human reason. What is unfair is putting people in a junior position in a situation where they have no authority to fix the things the customers believe they're there to fix. That is management's fault, and that's their responsibility.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    "We are not servants".
    Being a servant doesn't mean people are entitled to be rude to you. Being rude to servants is a mark of ill breeding.
    ... Everyone tells you they "know their rights" but few seem to accept they may have responsibilities too.
    A saying I've long liked is,
    'If somebody tells you they know their rights, the one thing you can know with confidence, is that they don't.'


  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Where did say you were wrong? What I said was the person in front of you is not who you are angry at. They are the people who can help you. In other circumstances some of the stuff staff get thrown at them would be abuse. Your anger gives you no right to treat the staff member any other way than with politeness and dignity. If you are that angry ask for a manager.
    On one of my trips to Disneyland Paris the Character Cast Members were on strike. One cast member had been sacked because of his behaviour to another cast member. He went to court and got his job back. The strike meant that some things had to be cancelled so refunds and rescheduling had to be made. The absolute crap that customer services staff had to take was unbelievable. They were very professional. What could they do but help. If you want to vent do it somewhere else. You are more likely to get thrown out than have your problem dealt with.
  • You are servants. You are there to serve. We all are, but few like to think it of ourselves. It seems to be a built in human trait to treat servants as if they are inferior beings.

    The harder I worked, the more I was treated like a skivvy, never with respect.

    How hard it is to follow Jesus, to treat everyone with kindness.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    They are the people who can help you.

    If they have the authority to mitigate the situation and provide an equitable solution, then absolutely. That's gold standard customer service.

    But too often, they are the poorly paid people who stand between you and the better paid people who actually can help you but won't, and complaints about service or goods end up as a complaint about the customer service we receive when we complain about service or goods.

    I was utterly abandoned by BA out in the middle of America. It was the local staff who (literally) hand-wrote me the tickets that got me home, and had the same low opinion of the dedicated customer services helplines back in the UK they (the staff) tried. They broke the rules for me, and I was extraordinarily grateful to them. BA as an organisation can just fuck off.
  • An individual worker's feelings, level of happiness on the job, enjoyment etc - they don't impact on the bottom line profits - are irrelevant to business. It's at the level of "who cares". The individuality of low level employees and their feelings is probably among the least interesting things about them for business. They're like light bulbs. Burn one out, throw it away and replace.

    Employee performance and their happiness is important when people get to deal making and other roles where human skills and relationships are important, where how they feel may impact on profit. These people get extra benefits, which may include everything from gym memberships, expense accounts, life coaching. The front line employees are often kept working just below the threshold where extra benefits are required to be provided, here ~30 hours per week.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    They are the people who can help you.

    As Doc Tor has pointed out, all too often they can't. They are frequently in the position of enforcing policies made by companies that are not good for customers, who are in turn justifiably angry. The people who deserve customers' wrath don't ever have to face it.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    That is still no excuse to behave atrociously to some one.
    Being a server is not the same as servants. Servants know their place and secondary. A server is doing a job but is equal.
    Employee performance and happiness is important to good employers. There are signs all over the tube here in London asking customers to respect workers. I work at John Lewis. UK shipmates will know the different kind of business we are.
    Bad businesses don’t care about their staff
  • Hugal wrote: »
    That is still no excuse to behave atrociously to some one.

    Very often, we didn't start it.

    Yes, there are signs everywhere saying that abuse to staff won't be tolerated, put up by companies that don't give a shit about their customers. Don't want angry passengers shouting at platform staff? Try putting on an extra carriage or two so we're not crammed on like fucking cattle while still paying full price for a seat, you utter wankers.

    I'm getting to the point where I think we're not angry enough.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    That is still no excuse to behave atrociously to some one.

    Very often, we didn't start it.

    Yes, there are signs everywhere saying that abuse to staff won't be tolerated, put up by companies that don't give a shit about their customers. Don't want angry passengers shouting at platform staff? Try putting on an extra carriage or two so we're not crammed on like fucking cattle while still paying full price for a seat, you utter wankers.

    I'm getting to the point where I think we're not angry enough.

    I've noticed at airports that the budget airline desks are all next to each other. Easy Jet, Ryan Air, Flybe, Jet2, Wizz Air etc

    There is only ever one airline that has signs up saying that abuse of staff won't be tolerated. I think anyone who has ever flown on UK budget airlines can guess which!
  • We're planning on my son working retail this summer just so he can get an eyeful (and earful, and snootful). Hopefully this experience will de-cocoon him a little before he goes off to university. (and the money, tiny as it is, never hurts)
  • We're planning on my son working retail this summer just so he can get an eyeful (and earful, and snootful). Hopefully this experience will de-cocoon him a little before he goes off to university. (and the money, tiny as it is, never hurts)

    Working Saturdays in retail paid for a new PC for me when I went to university.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    OTOH... I was in a shop yesterday: I was already carrying two heavy bags, but y'know, Sale. The place is not busy, I make my way to the counter where a member of staff is discussing a stock item with the till staff. Another assistant is putting things on rails and chipping in from time to time. I stand there with my intended purchase in one hand, plastic in the other. Till's eyes wander over me as an object of no interest. Another customer stands behind me, so we are now a queue. Till thinks she may have found the item on her iPad.

    I drop the (non)purchase, pocket my card, pick up my bags and walk out.

    Sometimes the front line are rubbish.
  • As someone who has worked the front line, your kind of behavior was always found to be funny to me. Makes no difference to me if you buy stuff or not from the store. I don’t get anything from your doing so. That being said, I’m generally kind to people because I think it’s important to be kind, but I’ve never been kind to someone in that job because it’s expected of me. That seems absurd.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    That is still no excuse to behave atrociously to some one.
    Being a server is not the same as servants. Servants know their place and secondary. A server is doing a job but is equal.
    IMO, there is a lot of semantics in this. Yes, providing a service has different rules for interfacing than being a traditional servant, but subservience is part of the contract.
    That said, treating anyone poorly because they are in a subservient role is rubbish.
  • It's a matter of power. Most people are powerless in most of their lives. At work, in their dealings with companies. In most of their lives there are consequences for expressing anger. Dealing with customer service reps gives them a free hit. The target may not be the right one, but they still get to enjoy the swing.
    I'm not sure that "enjoy" is the correct word. It's anecdotal, but I see more people getting angry again when recounting angry encounters with staff, customer service, etc. than showing any pleasure.
    They are reacting out of frustration.
    If companies and managers imposed consequences rather than trying to placate arseholes it would soon stop.
    I seriously doubt it would stop, though it might reduce in occurrence.
    The customer is not always right, but as noted above, management do not always care. Staff are replaceable.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host, 8th Day Host
    I worked retail quite often during my church career. (Lots of passion, not very much money involved as a full time church organist!!)

    One thing that I will always remember is the time a woman was screaming (very much loud screaming and cursing) at me while I was running the register. My boss came quickly to the front, stood right behind me with his hand on my shoulder and explained calmly to the woman that I was following store policy concerning the acceptance of checks. She continued to scream.

    My boss finally relented and allowed her to use her check, but that bully of a customer just reinforced her view that she could get whatever she wanted just by screaming for it. But my boss was a real peach. I'll never forget him coming to my rescue!
  • ECraigR wrote: »
    As someone who has worked the front line, your kind of behavior was always found to be funny to me. Makes no difference to me if you buy stuff or not from the store.
    It should. One, it is your job. Two, enough customers feel the same way, your job goes away. In these days of online retail being easy and cheap, there is less reason to go into a shop.
    ECraigR wrote: »
    I don’t get anything from your doing so. That being said, I’m generally kind to people because I think it’s important to be kind, but I’ve never been kind to someone in that job because it’s expected of me. That seems absurd.
    Why? What are people paying for in a brick and mortar shop? Whilst I find the extremely friendliness of American shops and restaurants a bit intrusive, I don't think they are wrong.
    In these days of internet transaction, delivered food, etc. what they are selling is a service and being nice (or at least not rude) is part of that. I think it always was.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    I was once in a McDonald's in Sterling, UK. It was one of those situations when travelling when you are buggered, and just want feeding over with no fuss. For some reason, I noticed that McDonald's offered salad instead of fries in their meal deals, and on a whim, that's what I ordered.

    The bloke behind the counter looked at me, blinking: 'You want salad?'
    'Yes please.'
    'I'm not sure we have salad. Are you sure you want salad?'
    'Yes please.'
    The guy called the manager over. 'Do we have salad?' Manager looks around in a few spots, finds the salad and grabs it, gives it to the guy. Guy slams it on the counter, 'salad'.

    The whole time he was looking at me like I was utterly beyond understanding.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    You get idiots in all jobs.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    To be fair, if you’ve ever eaten one of their salads his attitude does make sense - a cobbler could make a decent pair of vegan dms out of that lettuce.
  • To be fair, if you’ve ever eaten one of their salads his attitude does make sense - a cobbler could make a decent pair of vegan dms out of that lettuce.

    dms?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    To be fair, if you’ve ever eaten one of their salads his attitude does make sense - a cobbler could make a decent pair of vegan dms out of that lettuce.
    I wish the Ship provided a like button. @Doublethink you have made my day.
  • BroJames wrote: »

    Thank you.
  • TBF it's not something anyone would normally order. I mean, you're still hungry enough after the meal with fries; with just a salad to go with a "Big" Mac you'd be absolutely Hank Marvin.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    ECraigR wrote: »
    As someone who has worked the front line, your kind of behavior was always found to be funny to me. Makes no difference to me if you buy stuff or not from the store.
    It should. One, it is your job. Two, enough customers feel the same way, your job goes away. In these days of online retail being easy and cheap, there is less reason to go into a shop.
    ECraigR wrote: »
    I don’t get anything from your doing so. That being said, I’m generally kind to people because I think it’s important to be kind, but I’ve never been kind to someone in that job because it’s expected of me. That seems absurd.
    Why? What are people paying for in a brick and mortar shop? Whilst I find the extremely friendliness of American shops and restaurants a bit intrusive, I don't think they are wrong.
    In these days of internet transaction, delivered food, etc. what they are selling is a service and being nice (or at least not rude) is part of that. I think it always was.

    It’s my job that I’m only able to get because of the ridiculous state of the job market. As a friend of mine said, don’t worry, it’s always easy to get another shitty job you hate.

    I don’t know what people are paying for in a brick and mortar shop. In my case I worked in food service, and I suspect they were paying for not having to cook for themselves.

    I get the distinct impression you never worked service for any length of time. Or, if you did, you genuinely enjoyed being spit-roasted by the “customer” and the “management.”

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Having had a lot of service jobs involving face-to-face interactions with the general public, yes, lots of customers / diners / callers (this job is almost nonexistent these days, but sometime let me tell you about being a switchboard operator) treat service personnel like crap. And people in these jobs are often treated badly by their employers as well. The jobs are low-wage, high-turnover, high-pressure-low reward jobs, and those filling them are essentially "functions" to their bosses and customers rather than "people." There are things you can (and possibly must) do to protect yourself.

    1. Never let anyone--customer, supervisor, idly-observing onlooker--ever see the slightest indication that you are anything but delighted to be in your position. Keeping your voice calm and steady, your politely-helpful smile pasted firmly in place, your back straight and your shoulders back will go far in helping you feel in control in difficult spots. (It may also help the customer manage her/his own frustrations better. Somebody has to be in control of escalating emotions; it might as well be you.)

    2. Be crystal clear with yourself about your own limits. We all have our flash points, and we need to be on the alert when an interaction is headed south. When one of your triggers starts emerging, that's when to step back, calmly tell the escalating customer that you're going to ask a supervisor for clarification or policy-tweaking, and go to your super and request backup. The super (probably) gets paid more, has (probably) been there longer, and it's perfectly appropriate for him/her to take on the flame-thrower instead of you.

    3. Remind yourself as frequently as need be that your situation is temporary; you will not be working here forever. The days when people worked for the same place for decades are gone; all jobs are temporary. You may not know exactly when the present unpleasantness will end, but you know that it will. And you can choose to leave.

    4. Find or make allies at work. Ask other staff how they handle problematic situations. Use breaks to de-brief; imagine fantasy revenges together as a way to let off steam. Trade parties if there are repeat customers who always behave badly; another staffer may have different triggers than you.

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I agree with practically everything there Ohher. I have worked for the same company for nearly 20 years and a reasonable amount achieve longer. As a reward for 25 years service you get 6 months paid leave. There are still some exceptions to the rules.
  • ExclamationMarkExclamationMark Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    sionisais wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't wonder at all.

    Customer service is designed, by management, to stand between those who make the bad decisions and the consumers who have to put up with them. You have none of the authority but all of the responsibility to deal with complaints. We know this, but you far too often represent the shield we must batter our way through in order to have our complaints dealt with (not listened to - actually dealt with).

    Sorry. Neither of us invented this system. In a decent and fair world, those on the desk would be given the authority to deal with complaints, up to and including holding management to account for crappy workmanship and sharp practices. It is what it is.

    I have no intention of treating another human being as a servant, but I have no intention of being treated by another human being as a mark in a con.

    When Robert C Townsend ran Avis car rentals he ensured that every new graduate trainee spent a couple of weeks at an airport dealing with customers, including the awkward stuff. Not a few of them didn't make it to Monday lunchtime. I believe the US Marine Corps have a similar scheme in which everyone, including aviators, technicians and administrators dons combat fatigues and becomes a "grunt" for a couple of weeks every year, just to remind them who they are working for.

    More organizations should do this.

    When I led a Division in a very large UK Financial organisation, I answered the phone calls from customers from time to time. As a Branch Manager in the same company, I ran a till once a month, usually on the busiest Friday.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Having worked in public information roles in government (which means there is nothing you can tell me about stupid/malign/abusive customers) I nevertheless have issues with some frontline staff.

    Besides non-assisting assistants, there are those employed to offer specious reasons why you should not get the refund/payout you are entitled to. One instance comes to mind was John Lewis and the faulty dishwasher - 'I was using the wrong dishwasher tablets' - as in the ones they sell?

    How can it be good for the soul to be employed to cheat? Or lie? ('It's out of stock/on its way to you/we'll get back to you by x' - and all the other placatory untruths designed to get you off the phone).
  • sionisais wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't wonder at all.

    Customer service is designed, by management, to stand between those who make the bad decisions and the consumers who have to put up with them. You have none of the authority but all of the responsibility to deal with complaints. We know this, but you far too often represent the shield we must batter our way through in order to have our complaints dealt with (not listened to - actually dealt with).

    Sorry. Neither of us invented this system. In a decent and fair world, those on the desk would be given the authority to deal with complaints, up to and including holding management to account for crappy workmanship and sharp practices. It is what it is.

    I have no intention of treating another human being as a servant, but I have no intention of being treated by another human being as a mark in a con.

    When Robert C Townsend ran Avis car rentals he ensured that every new graduate trainee spent a couple of weeks at an airport dealing with customers, including the awkward stuff. Not a few of them didn't make it to Monday lunchtime. I believe the US Marine Corps have a similar scheme in which everyone, including aviators, technicians and administrators dons combat fatigues and becomes a "grunt" for a couple of weeks every year, just to remind them who they are working for.

    More organizations should do this.

    When I led a Division in a very large UK Financial organisation, I answered the phone calls from customers from time to time. As a Branch Manager in the same company, I ran a till once a month, usually on the busiest Friday.

    Which is all very commendable, but like the headteacher who takes a few lessons it can lull you into thinking you have an idea of what the frontline staff are going through. You do. A bit. What you can't avoid is the degree to which your position insulates you from the worst aspects of doing those jobs: a lack of authority; a lack of ability to be confident of drawing the line that says "no, I'm not going to put up with this". It also means you can fail to realise that policies you impose that are easy enough to work with for a day or even a week add more and more pressure when prolonged over months or years.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Firenze wrote: »
    Having worked in public information roles in government (which means there is nothing you can tell me about stupid/malign/abusive customers) I nevertheless have issues with some frontline staff.

    Besides non-assisting assistants, there are those employed to offer specious reasons why you should not get the refund/payout you are entitled to. One instance comes to mind was John Lewis and the faulty dishwasher - 'I was using the wrong dishwasher tablets' - as in the ones they sell?

    How can it be good for the soul to be employed to cheat? Or lie? ('It's out of stock/on its way to you/we'll get back to you by x' - and all the other placatory untruths designed to get you off the phone).

    That is not how partners are supposed to behave. It sounds like you got a rouge partner. As a partner myself I know this.
  • Does bad customer service only happen in the make-up section at John Lewis?
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Hugal wrote: »
    Firenze wrote: »
    Having worked in public information roles in government (which means there is nothing you can tell me about stupid/malign/abusive customers) I nevertheless have issues with some frontline staff.

    Besides non-assisting assistants, there are those employed to offer specious reasons why you should not get the refund/payout you are entitled to. One instance comes to mind was John Lewis and the faulty dishwasher - 'I was using the wrong dishwasher tablets' - as in the ones they sell?

    How can it be good for the soul to be employed to cheat? Or lie? ('It's out of stock/on its way to you/we'll get back to you by x' - and all the other placatory untruths designed to get you off the phone).

    That is not how partners are supposed to behave. It sounds like you got a rouge partner. As a partner myself I know this.

    Hum. The object was not to lose the sale by persuading me that it was my fault, not the defective goods. (They need not have bothered, since I intended to buy a replacement from them). It is such a common strategy (particularly in insurance) that I cannot believe it is not a job instruction.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Again you aren’t dealing with a normal company. I would have to know the whole story to be sure but this is not a JL thread.
  • I count myself privileged to be doing voluntary work - so I can quit any time I like, but I have managed 11 years so far .
    I do ( factual) advice work, and the vast majority of our clients are enormously grateful for the free help they receive. If it gets too tough, eg if the client does not like to hear the truth, my manager, who is paid staff, will come to my rescue.
    A bit different from when I taught in an independent school, where some parents would say “ we pay your wages, so you will
    ( for example ) give top marks/ give her extra help even though we have just taken her out of school to go on holiday / predict high grades”.
    Where I work now, if there is any abuse, it is the front- line receptionist who cops it, eg if someone feels they have been waiting too long, or is told to come back with the right paperwork. He had to call the police yesterday when a fight broke out.
  • sionisais wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't wonder at all.

    Customer service is designed, by management, to stand between those who make the bad decisions and the consumers who have to put up with them. You have none of the authority but all of the responsibility to deal with complaints. We know this, but you far too often represent the shield we must batter our way through in order to have our complaints dealt with (not listened to - actually dealt with).

    Sorry. Neither of us invented this system. In a decent and fair world, those on the desk would be given the authority to deal with complaints, up to and including holding management to account for crappy workmanship and sharp practices. It is what it is.

    I have no intention of treating another human being as a servant, but I have no intention of being treated by another human being as a mark in a con.

    When Robert C Townsend ran Avis car rentals he ensured that every new graduate trainee spent a couple of weeks at an airport dealing with customers, including the awkward stuff. Not a few of them didn't make it to Monday lunchtime. I believe the US Marine Corps have a similar scheme in which everyone, including aviators, technicians and administrators dons combat fatigues and becomes a "grunt" for a couple of weeks every year, just to remind them who they are working for.

    More organizations should do this.

    When I led a Division in a very large UK Financial organisation, I answered the phone calls from customers from time to time. As a Branch Manager in the same company, I ran a till once a month, usually on the busiest Friday.

    Which is all very commendable, but like the headteacher who takes a few lessons it can lull you into thinking you have an idea of what the frontline staff are going through. You do. A bit. What you can't avoid is the degree to which your position insulates you from the worst aspects of doing those jobs: a lack of authority; a lack of ability to be confident of drawing the line that says "no, I'm not going to put up with this". It also means you can fail to realise that policies you impose that are easy enough to work with for a day or even a week add more and more pressure when prolonged over months or years.

    Agreed. What I didn't say though was that I chose to have a desk within the main office area behind the tills and not to use the enclosed office. I also made it very plain that I was prepared to support staff when people got rough.

    Mind you, as has been mentioned above I won't be fobbed off. I will remain polite at all times but I will ensure I get a "respond by" date for an enquiry. It's no less than I was once prepared to offer and live by, so I am not expecting anything I cannot or couldn't deliver myself.

    When dealing with Government or Official Depts it is always wise to ask them the basis on which decisions are made. It is commonly done on office procedure not law: it brings useful wriggle room in negotiating a way forward if you know the law and they don't.
  • ECraigR wrote: »
    As someone who has worked the front line, your kind of behavior was always found to be funny to me. Makes no difference to me if you buy stuff or not from the store. I don’t get anything from your doing so. That being said, I’m generally kind to people because I think it’s important to be kind, but I’ve never been kind to someone in that job because it’s expected of me. That seems absurd.

    Was Firenze asking someone to be 'kind' to her? I thought she was just asking for someone to take her money for a purchase within a reasonable time of waiting, which arguably is what shops are for. It doesn't take any effort to nod at a waiting customer in acknowledgement of their evident desire to put money into the pockets of the employer who keeps you off the dole. It's not like it's one of those special multi-tasking skills that only the truly gifted can achieve after years of training! It's just simple basic civility in a retail setting.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    What @Anselmina (and @lilbuddha) said.

    So @ECraigR, how do you see the role of professional behaviour? If it's ok for shop assistants to be offhand and dilatory, what about bus drivers? Receptionists? Chefs?Nurses? Anyone from whom you might need goods or services? You are not, I trust, 'expecting' them to do what they're employed to civilly - or indeed, at all.

    Why should they?
  • Professional behavior? A minimum wage cashier isn’t a professional. They’re a poorly compensated worker with a, most likely, shitty boss and barely enough money to get by.

    As someone who was also a bus driver, no, I don’t think bus drivers are obligated to be civil. That’s a terrible fucking job and people who think bus drivers should beam with a “Howdy Do!” have no idea what the experience is like.

    Chefs? Nope. No reason for them to be civil. Receptionist? Maybe, though I’m never mad when they aren’t. Nurse is different, given that you can’t trip and find yourself a nurse, because of the degrees and tests and qualifications necessary.

    Now, you’ll note that I said I don’t think people should be expected to be kind. Civil is different, but civil for me is just doing enough to have the interaction go through smoothly. I have no problem with service workers who are borderline rude. Hell, I have no problem with rude service workers. As someone who has been there I get it, and wouldn’t hold it against anyone.
    Anselmina wrote: »
    ECraigR wrote: »
    As someone who has worked the front line, your kind of behavior was always found to be funny to me. Makes no difference to me if you buy stuff or not from the store. I don’t get anything from your doing so. That being said, I’m generally kind to people because I think it’s important to be kind, but I’ve never been kind to someone in that job because it’s expected of me. That seems absurd.

    Was Firenze asking someone to be 'kind' to her? I thought she was just asking for someone to take her money for a purchase within a reasonable time of waiting, which arguably is what shops are for. It doesn't take any effort to nod at a waiting customer in acknowledgement of their evident desire to put money into the pockets of the employer who keeps you off the dole. It's not like it's one of those special multi-tasking skills that only the truly gifted can achieve after years of training! It's just simple basic civility in a retail setting.

    I don’t think a service worker has to jump up all bushy-tailed and excited to help a buyer. They have their own shit, the cashier would have gotten to Firenze shortly. It didn’t hurt the worker because Firenze didn’t buy anything. It barely hurt the shop owner. My whole point is that I’ve always found that behavior to be funny because of those two reasons.

    The employer is not keeping anyone off the “dole” (I presume that’s British slang for unemployed?). As I said to LB, it’s easy to find another shitty job you hate.

    Note that all of my criticisms are for poorly paid, minimum wage service workers. Things get complicated when someone elects to have that career, either by doing high-end service work or the like.

  • Give me a break. I have been behind that minimum wage counter too, for years and in various places and kinds of work, and have my own shitty stories to tell. And yet bare civility is the least that I (or anybody else) owes a customer, because it's part of the freaking job.

    If you choose to overlook crappy behavior on the part of frontline employees or otherwise, that's your affair. But basic human decency and civility are not too much to ask--either from such employees, from customers, or from random people we meet on the street. Finances do not excuse bad behavior. "I can find another crappy job" doesn't either. Basically the only thing that does is a medical excuse (e.g. psychotic break), and such people need help to be examined and treated ASAP.

  • Who has said anything about bad behavior? Nothing Firenze or anyone else has noted suggests bad behavior. A cashier being less-than-attentive isn’t bad behavior.

    I said being civil is fine, but expecting people to be cheerful or unnecessarily pleasant is not. And in the case of certain categories of workers, their line for what counts as civil is different from other people’s. You’re paid a bad and shitty wage to take people’s money and render them a service. Doing so cheerfully isn’t part of the job in my book. You’re already not paid fairly for your labor, expecting additional emotional labor is ridiculous.

    I didn’t say anything about “basic human decency and civility.” And really, I’m focused on the minimum wage jobs of the world where the worker doesn’t make enough in 40 hours to reasonably live. Bus drivers I’m also sympathetic to, but they usually just ignore you when you come on. That counts as civil to me.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    As someone who works in a frontline customer facing role I have to wonder why some customers still treat you as crap. As a servant. Why they vent their anger at you when you are trying to help them with the problem. We are not servants. The problem was almost certainly caused by someone else. Take your attitude and stick it.

    I'm a little dismayed that you think it's OK to treat servants like crap. Just because someone is there to serve you doesn't mean they are less human.

    Your "frontline customer facing role" is a service role. You are there to serve the customer. You are also the only person the customer gets to speak to, so if anyone in your company has screwed the customer over, you're going to be the one that gets yelled at, because the customer doesn't have the opportunity to yell at the person who was actually responsible.

    And, to be honest, it depends on how you deal with my problem. If your company has screwed me over in some way, I'm going to come to you looking for you to put it right. If you're apologetic and reasonable about trying to fix it, I'm going to be happy. If you give me a raft of non-answers, non-explanations, and hide behind anonymous policies to try to justify either the original screwup or your failure to put it right quickly, I'm going to be very much less happy.

    @ECraigR - I recently took the family back to the UK for a holiday. Everyone we met was polite and courteous, with one single exception. Yes, you guessed it - it was a bus driver. He was probably the most unpleasant individual I've attempted to have some kind of commercial transaction with in the last couple of decades.
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