Some bus drivers are definitely unnecessarily nasty. I’ve had one or two interactions with such drivers since I quit, and I heard stories and encountered drivers when I worked transit, but, again, the job is terrible. It usually pays okay, but that’s about it. Otherwise it’s stressful, the hours are insane, it’s physically unpleasant, and can be quite dangerous. Beyond just the dangers of driving, many people use the bus and you only need one unwell person to wreak havoc.
The conditions could be different in the UK, but I doubt it. My understanding from my years in the industry was that it’s pretty standard everywhere. The pay is different and the pension is different, but the rest is the same. And the pay is never enough because of how grueling the job is.
Isn't there something to be said for making a day less bad for someone else? In fact, you might make their day if you are pleasant to them. And that just might make you feel a bit happier too. Life is not about money, it's about relationships.
I agree with that sentiment completely. My problem is with people who think service workers should adopt that position automatically, as somehow part of their labor.
I agree with that sentiment completely. My problem is with people who think service workers should adopt that position automatically, as somehow part of their labor.
As someone hired to "be the face" of the company to the customer seeking assistance, it is in fact part of a service worker's job to be pleasant, civil, and reasonably accommodating.
Is it possible, ECraigR, that you are rendering your job even worse than it has to be by inadvertently communicating your negative attitude to the customers you deal with?
It would help to remember that working in retail this particular time of year is particularly hell-ish. I have a little part-time job in a supermarket, working a couple of shifts a week. All through December, the store is half the size it needs to be for the volume of customers, the delivery trucks are always late/with the wrong stuff (we're the "discount" end of a very large grocery empire), a larger percentage of customers are stressed and financially overburdened, and so opportunities for disgruntlement abound. We generally try to be agreeable.
I did not say servants should be treated like crap. Servants are not equal to the owner of the house. A server is equal to the customer. I also said idiots work in all kinds jobs so you are going to meet some behind a counter.
As someone who works in a frontline customer facing role I have to wonder why some customers still treat you as crap. As a servant. Why they vent their anger at you when you are trying to help them with the problem. We are not servants. The problem was almost certainly caused by someone else. Take your attitude and stick it.
I'm a little dismayed that you think it's OK to treat servants like crap. Just because someone is there to serve you doesn't mean they are less human.
Your "frontline customer facing role" is a service role. You are there to serve the customer. You are also the only person the customer gets to speak to, so if anyone in your company has screwed the customer over, you're going to be the one that gets yelled at, because the customer doesn't have the opportunity to yell at the person who was actually responsible.
And, to be honest, it depends on how you deal with my problem. If your company has screwed me over in some way, I'm going to come to you looking for you to put it right. If you're apologetic and reasonable about trying to fix it, I'm going to be happy. If you give me a raft of non-answers, non-explanations, and hide behind anonymous policies to try to justify either the original screwup or your failure to put it right quickly, I'm going to be very much less happy.
@ECraigR - I recently took the family back to the UK for a holiday. Everyone we met was polite and courteous, with one single exception. Yes, you guessed it - it was a bus driver. He was probably the most unpleasant individual I've attempted to have some kind of commercial transaction with in the last couple of decades.
Sorry just because the company I work for screws you over it does not mean you can take it out on me. No excuses. Ever.
I agree with that sentiment completely. My problem is with people who think service workers should adopt that position automatically, as somehow part of their labor.
As someone hired to "be the face" of the company to the customer seeking assistance, it is in fact part of a service worker's job to be pleasant, civil, and reasonably accommodating.
Is it possible, ECraigR, that you are rendering your job even worse than it has to be by inadvertently communicating your negative attitude to the customers you deal with?
I’ve never had problems with customers. Again, you’ll have to note that I have maintained time and again I’m personally civil and kind because I think I should be. My problem is with those people who demand it of service workers.
The barely above-insulting wage paid to a service worker does not include emotional labor. I do not care who says otherwise.
My whole point is that if a service worker is rude to someone, let it go. Give them your money, take your commodity or service, and go about your life. Don’t be a douche to a service worker.
Who has said anything about bad behavior? Nothing Firenze or anyone else has noted suggests bad behavior. A cashier being less-than-attentive isn’t bad behavior.
She specifically said that the person looked straight at her, saw her waiting to be helped (his job function), and looked away without concern. That is bad behavior. That is in fact uncomfortably close to the cut direct, which is basically the A-bomb of social interaction.
I said being civil is fine, but expecting people to be cheerful or unnecessarily pleasant is not. And in the case of certain categories of workers, their line for what counts as civil is different from other people’s. You’re paid a bad and shitty wage to take people’s money and render them a service. Doing so cheerfully isn’t part of the job in my book. You’re already not paid fairly for your labor, expecting additional emotional labor is ridiculous.
I didn’t say anything about “basic human decency and civility.” And really, I’m focused on the minimum wage jobs of the world where the worker doesn’t make enough in 40 hours to reasonably live. Bus drivers I’m also sympathetic to, but they usually just ignore you when you come on. That counts as civil to me.
We come from different countries, so maybe there's a cultural difference. But you do the work you're hired to do if you take the wage. And in America, you are being hired (among other things) to show the most elementary American courtesies, which include acknowledging a customer's presence.
Shitty wages do not excuse shitty behavior. If they did, you'd be amazed at what a ... NSFW ...person I would have been for 90% of my life.
And really, DO you condition your behavior to other people based purely on how much money you get to deal with them? That's a low, low bar for human behavior. It suggests that in cases where we receive no money at all (e.g. dealing with a beggar on the street), we can be just as NSFW as we please.
Who has said anything about bad behavior? Nothing Firenze or anyone else has noted suggests bad behavior. A cashier being less-than-attentive isn’t bad behavior.
She specifically said that the person looked straight at her, saw her waiting to be helped (his job function), and looked away without concern. That is bad behavior. That is in fact uncomfortably close to the cut direct, which is basically the A-bomb of social interaction.
I said being civil is fine, but expecting people to be cheerful or unnecessarily pleasant is not. And in the case of certain categories of workers, their line for what counts as civil is different from other people’s. You’re paid a bad and shitty wage to take people’s money and render them a service. Doing so cheerfully isn’t part of the job in my book. You’re already not paid fairly for your labor, expecting additional emotional labor is ridiculous.
I didn’t say anything about “basic human decency and civility.” And really, I’m focused on the minimum wage jobs of the world where the worker doesn’t make enough in 40 hours to reasonably live. Bus drivers I’m also sympathetic to, but they usually just ignore you when you come on. That counts as civil to me.
We come from different countries, so maybe there's a cultural difference. But you do the work you're hired to do if you take the wage. And in America, you are being hired (among other things) to show the most elementary American courtesies, which include acknowledging a customer's presence.
Shitty wages do not excuse shitty behavior. If they did, you'd be amazed at what a ... NSFW ...person I would have been for 90% of my life.
And really, DO you condition your behavior to other people based purely on how much money you get to deal with them? That's a low, low bar for human behavior. It suggests that in cases where we receive no money at all (e.g. dealing with a beggar on the street), we can be just as NSFW as we please.
Not springing to attention to help a customer is bad behavior? My God, you must be wagging your finger and tsk-tsking everyone at all times. Inattentive? Yes. Lazy? Yes. Bad behavior? I don’t think it reaches that bar.
In America, you are being paid a wage for your labor, just like every other country in the world. Your labor includes several things; being unflappably pleasant and giving yourself as a servant to customers because you are getting a wage it does not include. I know the employers and financiers, and current ideology, want workers to believe that it does, but they are wrong.
We also come from different generations. My generation has a different ideology about work, especially people with my politics. You render the service for the wage you’re given. No more, no less. Not all human relationships are mitigated by the wage, but when you’re explicitly being paid a wage at that time, then yes, I think it’s perfectly fair to use that to judge how you interact with people.
Don’t like it? Advocate for higher wages and a less fucked up system.
She specifically said that the person looked straight at her, saw her waiting to be helped (his job function), and looked away without concern. That is bad behavior. That is in fact uncomfortably close to the cut direct, which is basically the A-bomb of social interaction.
Not springing to attention to help a customer is bad behavior? My God, you must be wagging your finger and tsk-tsking everyone at all times. Inattentive? Yes. Lazy? Yes. Bad behavior? I don’t think it reaches that bar.
Straw man. Looking at someone then looking away without speaking is not "not springing to attention." It's far more rude than that. How hard is it to say, "Be right with you when I can?" It costs nothing. Nothing.
Literally not a straw man. Over-exaggeration? Sure, fine, you got me.
It’s still not plumbing the depths to ‘bad behavior.’ Firenze makes it clear that the cashier was in the middle of doing something when this event took place. Evidently it’s rude of the server to not drop everything to serve, but it’s not rude of the customer to wait a second to be helped.
I’m surprised I have to defend treating service workers like humans with shitty jobs from so many people. Weird world.
I have just returned from France, renowned for a leisurely pace of service even in Paris.
There was a sign posted on the window of one of the bistros we dined at that said, basically, treat our service staff with respect or find someplace else to eat.
After all the years I spent waiting tables, I wish to god any one of my employers had the decency to post the same kind of sign.
Serving is what I do. It's not who I am. There's a difference.
Your day is not worth more than mine even if your eight hours work pays you more than mine. Your life is not worth more than mine. We, both of us, start and end with twenty four hours in a day and not even the Sultan of Brunei can buy another hour of his day, let alone his life.
Why do we still get crap? Because people are crappy. They think crap, they eat crap, they say crap, and they feel crap. There's no mystery there. I can hardly expect a human being who is up to his eyeballs in his own crap to behave any differently. I don't take it personally but some days it's definitely harder than others to deal with his crap and my own.
But I am nothing if not professional. How someone treats me as a professional says more about them than it says about me.
Literally not a straw man. Over-exaggeration? Sure, fine, you got me.
It’s still not plumbing the depths to ‘bad behavior.’ Firenze makes it clear that the cashier was in the middle of doing something when this event took place. Evidently it’s rude of the server to not drop everything to serve, but it’s not rude of the customer to wait a second to be helped.
You cop to over-exaggeration then make the EXACT SAME OVEREXAGGERATION. Come on. Clearly it's a straw man.
Wow, way to miss the point dude. I can readily believe that you did philosophy graduate school. I haven’t seen so much dick-swinging oneupmanship since my own time there.
Read the fucking anecdote before you come back and play, btw.
Who here is claiming it's OK to abuse service workers? It isn't; nobody thinks so. Does it happen anyway? Yes. Is it more likely to happen during the year-end holidays? Yup.
Neither is it OK for tired, stressed, put-upon service workers to take out their frustrations on clients/customers/patrons. Does it happen anyway? Yes. Is it more likely to happen during the year-end holidays? Yup.
If you do, as reported, have some good interactions with customers, take pride and satisfaction in that as a way of caring for yourself. Focus on those positives as a way to get you through the temporary crap job, recognize that it ALWAYS takes two to tango, and do what you need to do to survive (as long as it doesn't involve dumping on the customers, which could get you fired).
Stop looking at the world in black-and-white. When a job exceeds your limits for crapness, get out. As long as you can tolerate the crap parts, exercise self-care by focusing on its positives: it pays (some of) the bills. It gets you out of the house. It may offer some social opportunities. It organizes your day. It may lead to something better. And so on.
You want to have things all one way? Better start universe-shopping; that's not how this one works.
Wow, way to miss the point dude. I can readily believe that you did philosophy graduate school. I haven’t seen so much dick-swinging oneupmanship since my own time there.
Read the fucking anecdote before you come back and play, btw.
Wow, abuse in place of argument. You are really swinging for the fences in the logical fallacies derby.
I read the fucking anecdote, as you so quaintly put it. The woman looked directly at the customer, then looked away. That's called the "cut direct" and as LC pointed out it is the atom bomb of passive aggression. This is in a different league from "they didn't help me right away." Perhaps you are not used to such social niceties; your behavior on this posts suggests this may be the case.
But if disagreeing with you = dick-swinging one-upmanship, you must really have a hard time here on the Ship, with people disagreeing with you all over the place. Poor soul.
Wow, way to miss the point dude. I can readily believe that you did philosophy graduate school. I haven’t seen so much dick-swinging oneupmanship since my own time there.
Read the fucking anecdote before you come back and play, btw.
Wow, abuse in place of argument. You are really swinging for the fences in the logical fallacies derby.
I read the fucking anecdote, as you so quaintly put it. The woman looked directly at the customer, then looked away. That's called the "cut direct" and as LC pointed out it is the atom bomb of passive aggression. This is in a different league from "they didn't help me right away." Perhaps you are not used to such social niceties; your behavior on this posts suggests this may be the case.
But if disagreeing with you = dick-swinging one-upmanship, you must really have a hard time here on the Ship, with people disagreeing with you all over the place. Poor soul.
Good to note that your modus operandi of flinging accusations of logical fallacies at others doesn’t count as abuse; just pointing out the facts, eh? What a samaritan. Gold star.
Again, to repeat my claim for the nth-time, poorly compensated service workers are allowed to be passive aggressive. It’s part and parcel. What you consistently leave out in your response to the fucking anecdote, since I like that we’re going with that term now, is that the cashier was in the middle of something. The anecdote doesn’t relate how long the customer was kept on hold, it doesn’t relate what the task involving the cashier was, and it tells us nothing about the circumstances of the cashier. We’re supposed to pillory this person because they didn’t behave how we expect or think they should have handled the situation. All I’ve been saying is that the person is just that, a person. A person with a shitty job who has every right to be passive aggressive, and who literally caused no harm to anyone. None. (Good rhetorical flourish by the way on your original response.)
Who here is claiming it's OK to abuse service workers? It isn't; nobody thinks so. Does it happen anyway? Yes. Is it more likely to happen during the year-end holidays? Yup.
Neither is it OK for tired, stressed, put-upon service workers to take out their frustrations on clients/customers/patrons. Does it happen anyway? Yes. Is it more likely to happen during the year-end holidays? Yup.
If you do, as reported, have some good interactions with customers, take pride and satisfaction in that as a way of caring for yourself. Focus on those positives as a way to get you through the temporary crap job, recognize that it ALWAYS takes two to tango, and do what you need to do to survive (as long as it doesn't involve dumping on the customers, which could get you fired).
Stop looking at the world in black-and-white. When a job exceeds your limits for crapness, get out. As long as you can tolerate the crap parts, exercise self-care by focusing on its positives: it pays (some of) the bills. It gets you out of the house. It may offer some social opportunities. It organizes your day. It may lead to something better. And so on.
You want to have things all one way? Better start universe-shopping; that's not how this one works.
It’s worth noting that several posters here have offered justifications for being shitty to service workers. So, actually, yes, people are stating that it’s okay to abuse service workers.
I think it’s well-intentioned that you’re offering me life advice on how to handle bad jobs, but it does come across as patronizing. Thanks, I guess, though.
I am not looking at the world in black-and-white. I’m literally saying we should be seeing service workers as multi-dimensional and not just wage-workers who have to labor as we demand of them because they’re paid a wage. There’s nothing black-and-white about what I’m suggesting. I’m saying wage-laborers should be forgiven some behavior because of their shitty circumstances, and that commodity-purchasers should be more tolerant of these behaviors because of those circumstances.
Again, I’m pretty surprised that I have to defend service workers on a place as liberal as this. It bears repeating: weird world.
How about we keep talking about the issues and skip all the puerile insults? Actually pointing out logical fallacies is part of the rough-and-tumble of the SOF, and no, it does not count as abuse.
I don't think anybody has a right to be passive aggressive.
It’s worth noting that several posters here have offered justifications for being shitty to service workers. So, actually, yes, people are stating that it’s okay to abuse service workers.
Offering explanations for events does not equal offering "justifications" for them.
I think it’s well-intentioned that you’re offering me life advice on how to handle bad jobs, but it does come across as patronizing. Thanks, I guess, though.
Don't want to be patronized? Stop posting like a 4-year-old.
I am not looking at the world in black-and-white. I’m literally saying we should be seeing service workers as multi-dimensional and not just wage-workers who have to labor as we demand of them because they’re paid a wage.
News flash # 1: when companies hire us to perform certain functions at certain times in certain ways, we are literally agreeing to perform those functions in those ways at those times in exchange for the crap wage (and benefits, if any) they offer. We are all free to try negotiating for more; we are also free to reject the agreement or try for a better deal elsewhere, and both parties are free to terminate the agreement at any time. Don't like this set-up (which does, indeed, suck)? Invent your own job and work for yourself.
Having done the latter on occasion during the last half-century or so, here's news-flash # 2: self-employed, self-directed workers still sometimes have to deal with crap.
You’re right, I’m not defending anyone, I’m defending a position. Given that this is a discussion, that seems appropriate. Keep up. Don’t want to chat about it? Walk away, ignore it, or fuck off.
The employer / worker agreement? That’s cute. Where is that? In the silly piece of paper a worker has to sign to be allowed to live? That’s not an agreement; that’s a bill of sale for a worker’s labor-power that they’re coerced into signing. Workers should be held accountable when they do something actually morally wrong, like theft, assault, or something else that actually violates morality. Just being a disagreeable person doesn’t violate any imagined agreement. I’ve been arguing that a worker’s disagreeableness is perfectly understandable if you think about their shitty conditions.
You’re welcome to be the wage-slave defending your and others denigration and abasement; I’m not inclined to do so.
ECraigR, you astonish me. First of all by the extremely odd belief you profess that a low salary justifies rudeness--or as you put it yourself, "passive aggressiveness." Literally nothing justifies that. Certain circumstances may excuse it, but nothing justifies intentional bad manners--particularly when it's the cut direct, leveled at a person one does not know and is contractually obliged to treat with courtesy.
Tell me, do you not hold yourself to higher standards than that?
My mother would have had my hide if I had ever treated anybody that way--and employment (shitty or otherwise) has nothing to do with it. It has to do with respect for yourself as a person--a person who is valuable enough not to treat others like shit.
And did you miss the part where I said I too worked retail? It's how I got through school. So we're talking years, here--not a month over summer vacation. I know what shitty customers are like. And I know what it's like to treat them with unwavering civility, because whatever they are doesn't matter. It's who I am that matters. And I am not going to be that kind of person.
For the final time, I have said repeatedly that these are not behaviors I engage in. If everyone could read what I actually write, this conversation would go a lot better. I have said I do not treat people poorly, but that I am not offended when service workers treat me poorly because I understand their shitty working conditions. This shouldn’t be a radical position.
I’ve been saying this whole time that service workers are excused, justified, whatever, in their bad behavior because of their bad working conditions. I’ve been advocating for others to adopt this perspective. The general response has been, nah man, they have a job so they should be cool with it. I disagree. Here’s the summary of my position: unpleasant/rude/whatever interaction with a service worker? Smile, understand they have shitty conditions, move on with your life.
The employer / worker agreement? That’s cute. Where is that? In the silly piece of paper a worker has to sign to be allowed to live? That’s not an agreement; that’s a bill of sale for a worker’s labor-power that they’re coerced into signing.
You can heap all the scorn you wish on "silly" pieces of paper--degrees, contracts, licenses, mortgages, certificates, etc.--but scorn won't get you far when someone takes you to court for violating the terms involved.
Don't like the terms? Don't sign. Who is holding a gun to the retail worker's head when she agrees to work in Ladies Undergarments (I could tell you stories)? Who compels the waiter to accept the job where the boss is nasty during the interview? Whose fault is it if the clerk agrees to an employer's offer of $10/hr instead of asking for $15? Will they agree to $15? Almost certainly not; but they might settle at $12.50 -- $100/week more than the original offer.
The situation of low-wage workers is bad, but asking customers (many of whom are ALSO poorly-paid, stressed out, and overtired) and employers to overlook bad service is the wrong solution to workers' problems. Unionize. Demand higher pay, better benefits, better conditions, and better treatment.
Interesting how many interpretations of the same incident there are.
Since I was there, I think the Till assistant was taking her lead from the older (more senior?) women she was talking to. 'If Senga isn't bothering, I don't need too'. Did Senga see me? I was within a couple of feet of her - but maybe the nomenclature of frock necklines really is that attention-absorbing.
I googled employee opinions about this particular firm (just everything is on the 'net). Some thought it paid well, some badly (the UK has a Minimum Wage, which it seems to pay slightly above. But this does not apply below a certain age, so the younger ones were probably the more discontented). Some loved working there, rather more didn't. It was boring. It was too busy. It was cliquey. It was friendly. Mostly, it was all the fault of the Management.
I worked as a cashier for the last 10 years before retiring. It was a nice supermarket & treated it's staff very well, in fact it was a cooperative, and we got an excellent annual bonus. We were told that one of the main strengths of the company was its reputation for high customer service from the staff - and I think that was right. But we are all human. Some of the customers were divas and some of the staff were grumpy. It can be very upsetting when customers are rude - but we were very fortunate that this didn't happen often. I think it's upsetting for customers too if staff are rude or dismissive. In this store most of the customers were fine, and most of the staff would happily walk the extra mile to help customers. I think the way we treated customers was important - it was one of the the main selling point this company. We were given regular staff training on various aspects of the job - including a component about how to treat customers in difficult circumstances. A lot of emphasis was placed on treating customers well.
Having said that, I'm careful how I treat staff when complaining. Even if their companies have behaved in a vile fashion there's no reason why they should take a hit on the chin because of my ire. Also if I see people working in jobs that seem pretty thankless, I give them licence to be a bit grumpy and uncaring. In fact what really amazes me are the number of people working in shitty jobs who nevertheless are cheerful and friendly. Jobs where if I had them I would be spitting gravel.
I find that when I have to complain it quite often pays dividends to clearly separate the customer service person I am speaking to from the organisation I am complaining about.
If I don’t put them in the position of being ‘the enemy’ they can be more willing to help me find a way through the problem. I’m human, so it doesn’t always work, but I’ve never had worse service for being nice to people.
The employer / worker agreement? That’s cute. Where is that? In the silly piece of paper a worker has to sign to be allowed to live? That’s not an agreement; that’s a bill of sale for a worker’s labor-power that they’re coerced into signing.
You can heap all the scorn you wish on "silly" pieces of paper--degrees, contracts, licenses, mortgages, certificates, etc.--but scorn won't get you far when someone takes you to court for violating the terms involved.
Don't like the terms? Don't sign. Who is holding a gun to the retail worker's head when she agrees to work in Ladies Undergarments (I could tell you stories)? Who compels the waiter to accept the job where the boss is nasty during the interview? Whose fault is it if the clerk agrees to an employer's offer of $10/hr instead of asking for $15? Will they agree to $15? Almost certainly not; but they might settle at $12.50 -- $100/week more than the original offer.
The situation of low-wage workers is bad, but asking customers (many of whom are ALSO poorly-paid, stressed out, and overtired) and employers to overlook bad service is the wrong solution to workers' problems. Unionize. Demand higher pay, better benefits, better conditions, and better treatment.
I don’t think a worker is being taken to court because they were rude to a customer. Of course, given the way the courts exist to further capital, could happen, but it seems unlikely.
Workers have to sign the term if they want to live. No one wants to work at Walmart, one of the most despicable companies around. They have to because they need to pay bills, try to support a family, and eek out some semblance of a happy life. The employers determine how workers will labor and on what terms, the worker has virtually no say in it. They do not meet as juridical equals.
It is also virtually impossible to unionize now. I’ve tried, but at least in CT and NY there are laws that effectively make all unionizing impossible. Sure, I’ll keep demanding higher wages and better conditions, but one of the only ways that will change is if other poorly paid, stressed out customers who are workers recognize themselves in service workers and respond accordingly. Be kind, do unto others, build class consciousness.
What are people paying for in a brick and mortar shop? Whilst I find the extremely friendliness of American shops and restaurants a bit intrusive, I don't think they are wrong.
Hee. I always worked front line customer service in the U.S. and when we first got to England I actually laughed out loud in the faces of many cashiers and store clerks because I thought they were deliberately being funny. I was thinking, "Oh, it's that famous British sense of humour! They're doing a bit of a Monty Python sketch for us!" Over time we realized their rudeness was serious and they were also strangely attached to their merchandise, not wanting to part with any of it.
@ECraigRNot expecting pleasant service from a cashier or clerk because they make minimum wage is disrespectful to the worker and their job. All honest work deserves to be done well.
My son is already dreading the worst two weeks of the year at Walmart. Immediately following Christmas comes the long lines at the returns desk. Everyone is angry.
<Snip>
Note that all of my criticisms are for poorly paid, minimum wage service workers. Things get complicated when someone elects to have that career, either by doing high-end service work or the like.
I do know what you're saying. And you make a good point that a shit wage for an unrewarding job is unlikely to inspire much in the way of a bushy-tailed response! There is no excuse for a customer pushing their own ignorance or frustration onto the shoulders of the lowlier paid, bottom-of-the-ladder employee. Or treating waiting staff, or till operators eg, dismissively or carelessly. But customers don't wish to be treated dismissively or carelessly either. A customer isn't paid to go into the shop, but is paying to BE there, if purchasing something. So ignoring customers, when the reasonable alternative is to acknowledge them, is not excusable either.
But maybe it's a culture thing, or a semantics thing. You seem to be reading some other expectation into Firenze's and my post that isn't actually there. As a school kid (before minimum wage and certain child labour regulations) I worked in my uncle's newsagents on the counter for years, on a tough housing estate where quarter was neither given nor taken. Child though I was and paid in mouse-farts, I was still expected to treat the customer as if their being there was a good thing. (Though, admittedly rude customers could be told where they could alternately deposit their cash, if things got heated - though not by me, I should add!)
And when I started work, leaving school, my (poorly-paid) work was often telephone contact with, effectively, government-related clients, and reception work. So it was not always pleasant or happy-smiley interactions we're talking! Nevertheless, I did my job which included keeping a civil tongue in my head when dealing with the general public, despite the occasional irksomeness or boredom of the work I was being paid to do. Perhaps, an element of self-respect also comes into it; knowing that one is doing a good job. And as the saying goes: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
And - as with back then - I don't think even 'shitty' jobs are that plentiful. Not in the UK, at any rate, or any part I've lived in. Or rather, the jobs even if they were plentiful, the likelihood of success of getting one, not high.
I don't expect anyone to be bushy-tailed about doing what they might consider to be a crap job. I remember what that felt like myself. And actually it's lovely how many people in retail and service are cheerful, polite and helpful, from till-operators in Tesco's to the (usually) young folk at the McDonald's drive-thru window. But again with the 'kindness'? Who expects 'kindness'? Appropriate effective service, yes.
Just as an aside, when I get fed up with some people's attitudes towards using clergy as 'staff' for their weddings and funerals etc, I DO remind myself that we have set ourselves up as servants, and in a sense part of the penalty of that is that often we will be treated that way! But in line with 1 Corinthians 12, the so-called 'lowlier' the work undertaken by the worker, the more carefully and respectfully they should be treated. By all means, treat your vicar like a vaguely unwanted but compulsory 'extra' at your wedding video. But be a decent human being to the person who'll spend four hours on their feet serving your reception dinner and keeping your wine glass topped up for the tuppence ha'penny they'll get at the end of the night.
Professional behavior? A minimum wage cashier isn’t a professional. They’re a poorly compensated worker with a, most likely, shitty boss and barely enough money to get by.
As someone who was also a bus driver, no, I don’t think bus drivers are obligated to be civil. That’s a terrible fucking job and people who think bus drivers should beam with a “Howdy Do!” have no idea what the experience is like.
Chefs? Nope. No reason for them to be civil. Receptionist? Maybe, though I’m never mad when they aren’t. Nurse is different, given that you can’t trip and find yourself a nurse, because of the degrees and tests and qualifications necessary.
Now, you’ll note that I said I don’t think people should be expected to be kind. Civil is different, but civil for me is just doing enough to have the interaction go through smoothly. I have no problem with service workers who are borderline rude. Hell, I have no problem with rude service workers. As someone who has been there I get it, and wouldn’t hold it against anyone.
As someone who has worked the front line, your kind of behavior was always found to be funny to me. Makes no difference to me if you buy stuff or not from the store. I don’t get anything from your doing so. That being said, I’m generally kind to people because I think it’s important to be kind, but I’ve never been kind to someone in that job because it’s expected of me. That seems absurd.
Was Firenze asking someone to be 'kind' to her? I thought she was just asking for someone to take her money for a purchase within a reasonable time of waiting, which arguably is what shops are for. It doesn't take any effort to nod at a waiting customer in acknowledgement of their evident desire to put money into the pockets of the employer who keeps you off the dole. It's not like it's one of those special multi-tasking skills that only the truly gifted can achieve after years of training! It's just simple basic civility in a retail setting.
I don’t think a service worker has to jump up all bushy-tailed and excited to help a buyer. They have their own shit, the cashier would have gotten to Firenze shortly. It didn’t hurt the worker because Firenze didn’t buy anything. It barely hurt the shop owner. My whole point is that I’ve always found that behavior to be funny because of those two reasons.
The employer is not keeping anyone off the “dole” (I presume that’s British slang for unemployed?). As I said to LB, it’s easy to find another shitty job you hate.
Note that all of my criticisms are for poorly paid, minimum wage service workers. Things get complicated when someone elects to have that career, either by doing high-end service work or the like.
Why be rude? I have been in the kinds of job you describe and being civil was one way of making it possible in that it didn't lay the ground for an uncivil response to uncivil behaviour.
I know that many jobs don't properly remunerate the people who do them but none of us will rise above anything if we go for the lowest common denominator of barely concealed disdain for the job and customer.
1. A cashier being less-than-attentive isn’t bad behavior.
2. …..usually just ignore you when you come on. That counts as civil to me.
1. It is bad behaviour as it will lead to a company losing business. Mine probably if you were the customer and you were deliberating trying to tell me who's boss. I am not the boss there just for the record, we are trying to work together.
2. Not to me and, I'd suggest, to loads of others. Be civil and others will treat you the same. Be rude, dismissive and keep people waiting? You'll reap what you sow if they stay as customers … if they don't then why complain that you'll lose your job?
Incivility brings to more complaints, higher costs, reduced profits and redundancy. Hey Presto! You're on the dole again.
ECraigR says he was a surly bus driver, so it follows that he tolerates surly service workers since they validate his attitude.
I, after a working life in information services, am so wired for helpfulness that I will sometimes respond to the bemused tourist (of which Edinburgh has so many) with directions before they ask. OTOH, it probably up my expectations of positive response from other people.
ECraigR says he was a surly bus driver, so it follows that he tolerates surly service workers since they validate his attitude.
I, after a working life in information services, am so wired for helpfulness that I will sometimes respond to the bemused tourist (of which Edinburgh has so many) with directions before they ask. OTOH, it probably up my expectations of positive response from other people.
I did not say I was a surly bus driver. I have said many fucking times that I tolerate surly attitudes because I understand the working conditions. I, however, value kindness above all else.
Perhaps before flinging unfounded accusations and assumptions you should read what I actually wrote.
What is important is to treat people decently, as fellow human beings. I know there are quite a few situations in which that is next to impossible, but one must try in any case.
When I was in college, I worked as a bank teller during summer breaks. It's a fairly thankless job: after all, you're dealing with the one thing most precious to your customers - their money - and none of them treat you properly.
(One summer, when working in the motor bank from mid-afternoon until 9, and doing my student teaching during the day, I got a customer who pulled up at 8:59:45, and, of course, had to take her transaction; although desperately tired, I took care of it, then started to close up. She sent in another one. I took care of it, and again started to close up. She started honking her car horn and pressing the call button: "Wait! I have more!" It turned out that she had six more transactions, and was planning to simply send them in one at a time. I asked her to send them in all at once - and my supervisor, who was probably almost as exhausted as I was, got in on it - and we were able to finish it all up in about ten minutes. It would have been at least another hour if she'd kept sending them individually. She was, frankly, an inconsiderate idiot - but I was polite, and kept smiling. That was a part of my minimum-wage job. It's also a part of me: Be polite, be kind; even when dealing with someone inexcusably rude, don't descend to their level. It's really not that hard.)
Thank you, Ross. I’m sure many who have worked in service positions have stories like that. It’s important that we’re thankful who respond to service workers as such.
It’s also important that we be kind and compassionate when we encounter a service worker who does not meet that bar because of so many circumstances.
I used to wait tables in a swanky retirement home. No tipping allowed except at Christmas where I would receive an annual gratuity that amounted to the same tip I could have made in a single night at a local pub (but no longer was qualified to do because of age you have to be young and cute for those places).
I always maintained composure and good cheer on the floor. I was a favorite of the residents, even though their personalities were very difficult often due to medication.
Occasionally I would get the comment “You seem so happy in your work” as if anybody my age could possibly actually enjoy the grinding physical emotional and mental labour that is dining room service.
My reply was always “Thank you for noticing. If I seem happy its because I am doing my job as a professional”
This answer always flummoxed them. They would repeat their remark as if I hadn’t understood, as if they needed reassurance that I was indeed happy. And I would simply repeat the answer.
Its as if on some level they had some idea of how overworked and underpaid I was and needed to feel better by thinking I was being compensated in life enjoyment.
I would never ever make the mistake of thinking that someone in a service position is there because they love the work. I startv from there and work forward in all my transactions.
TBQH the biggest single factor in how I treat people is my mood, which usually has very little to do with them. Shops and shopping centres tend to have a bad influence on how I feel so I prefer not to interact at all. I can intellectually grasp and assent to all the the principles of politeness or treating workers well, but that doesn't have much impact when a cloud of doom or a feeling of existential discomfort is upon me.
It's also a part of me:
Be polite, be kind; even when dealing with someone inexcusably rude, don't descend to their level.
As to the first part: Ha! You're not always polite and kind. You're plenty rude on these boards at times. And thank goodness!
More important: Accommodating someone's bad behavior is not always the best thing. Your bank customer was able to get you to work past closing and no doubt did the same thing to others. Had she been turned away, she'd have learned to show up earlier.
I frequently am asked to work when I've clocked out and am on my way out the door, and unless it's something that will take less than a minute, I don't accommodate these requests. It's illegal to ask someone to work off the clock, and it happens so often, I could easily end up giving hours of unpaid labor. It took a while, but my supervisor eventually learned to respect my free time. There are too many church members, not to mention the public, to train them all, but I'm not going to take 20 minutes out of my lunch hour to help someone who doesn't want to recognize that we close 12-1, and I'm not staying past 5 when my supervisor has made it clear that there is no budget for overtime pay. I'm polite about it, but I stand firm.
It's also a part of me:
Be polite, be kind; even when dealing with someone inexcusably rude, don't descend to their level.
As to the first part: Ha! You're not always polite and kind. You're plenty rude on these boards at times. And thank goodness!
I should have specified that I'm always polite and kind in face-to-face interactions, particularly with those in service jobs. (And even more particularly with persons in medical professions.)
More important: Accommodating someone's bad behavior is not always the best thing. Your bank customer was able to get you to work past closing and no doubt did the same thing to others. Had she been turned away, she'd have learned to show up earlier. ...
I had no choice; it was the bank's policy. And I did get paid for the extra time.
I frequently am asked to work when I've clocked out and am on my way out the door, and unless it's something that will take less than a minute, I don't accommodate these requests. It's illegal to ask someone to work off the clock, and it happens so often, I could easily end up giving hours of unpaid labor. It took a while, but my supervisor eventually learned to respect my free time. There are too many church members, not to mention the public, to train them all, but I'm not going to take 20 minutes out of my lunch hour to help someone who doesn't want to recognize that we close 12-1, and I'm not staying past 5 when my supervisor has made it clear that there is no budget for overtime pay. I'm polite about it, but I stand firm.
The passing of the buck onto the person directly interfacing with the customer works both ways. We recently had cause to complain to the management of a company - and they tried to blame the members of staff dealing with us directly (they handled the situation very well, as it happened).
I bet the person being really rude to you was probably the same person who is rude to his child's teacher, the doctor's receptionist, the dustman.... it's an attitude of mind some people have, regardless of who they are dealing with.
Comments
The conditions could be different in the UK, but I doubt it. My understanding from my years in the industry was that it’s pretty standard everywhere. The pay is different and the pension is different, but the rest is the same. And the pay is never enough because of how grueling the job is.
As someone hired to "be the face" of the company to the customer seeking assistance, it is in fact part of a service worker's job to be pleasant, civil, and reasonably accommodating.
Is it possible, ECraigR, that you are rendering your job even worse than it has to be by inadvertently communicating your negative attitude to the customers you deal with?
Sorry just because the company I work for screws you over it does not mean you can take it out on me. No excuses. Ever.
I’ve never had problems with customers. Again, you’ll have to note that I have maintained time and again I’m personally civil and kind because I think I should be. My problem is with those people who demand it of service workers.
The barely above-insulting wage paid to a service worker does not include emotional labor. I do not care who says otherwise.
My whole point is that if a service worker is rude to someone, let it go. Give them your money, take your commodity or service, and go about your life. Don’t be a douche to a service worker.
She specifically said that the person looked straight at her, saw her waiting to be helped (his job function), and looked away without concern. That is bad behavior. That is in fact uncomfortably close to the cut direct, which is basically the A-bomb of social interaction.
We come from different countries, so maybe there's a cultural difference. But you do the work you're hired to do if you take the wage. And in America, you are being hired (among other things) to show the most elementary American courtesies, which include acknowledging a customer's presence.
Shitty wages do not excuse shitty behavior. If they did, you'd be amazed at what a ... NSFW ...person I would have been for 90% of my life.
And really, DO you condition your behavior to other people based purely on how much money you get to deal with them? That's a low, low bar for human behavior. It suggests that in cases where we receive no money at all (e.g. dealing with a beggar on the street), we can be just as NSFW as we please.
Not springing to attention to help a customer is bad behavior? My God, you must be wagging your finger and tsk-tsking everyone at all times. Inattentive? Yes. Lazy? Yes. Bad behavior? I don’t think it reaches that bar.
In America, you are being paid a wage for your labor, just like every other country in the world. Your labor includes several things; being unflappably pleasant and giving yourself as a servant to customers because you are getting a wage it does not include. I know the employers and financiers, and current ideology, want workers to believe that it does, but they are wrong.
We also come from different generations. My generation has a different ideology about work, especially people with my politics. You render the service for the wage you’re given. No more, no less. Not all human relationships are mitigated by the wage, but when you’re explicitly being paid a wage at that time, then yes, I think it’s perfectly fair to use that to judge how you interact with people.
Don’t like it? Advocate for higher wages and a less fucked up system.
Lol. You're the company representative, paid to stand between a company that's screwed the customer over, and the customer. It means just that.
Straw man. Looking at someone then looking away without speaking is not "not springing to attention." It's far more rude than that. How hard is it to say, "Be right with you when I can?" It costs nothing. Nothing.
It’s still not plumbing the depths to ‘bad behavior.’ Firenze makes it clear that the cashier was in the middle of doing something when this event took place. Evidently it’s rude of the server to not drop everything to serve, but it’s not rude of the customer to wait a second to be helped.
I’m surprised I have to defend treating service workers like humans with shitty jobs from so many people. Weird world.
There was a sign posted on the window of one of the bistros we dined at that said, basically, treat our service staff with respect or find someplace else to eat.
After all the years I spent waiting tables, I wish to god any one of my employers had the decency to post the same kind of sign.
Serving is what I do. It's not who I am. There's a difference.
Your day is not worth more than mine even if your eight hours work pays you more than mine. Your life is not worth more than mine. We, both of us, start and end with twenty four hours in a day and not even the Sultan of Brunei can buy another hour of his day, let alone his life.
Why do we still get crap? Because people are crappy. They think crap, they eat crap, they say crap, and they feel crap. There's no mystery there. I can hardly expect a human being who is up to his eyeballs in his own crap to behave any differently. I don't take it personally but some days it's definitely harder than others to deal with his crap and my own.
But I am nothing if not professional. How someone treats me as a professional says more about them than it says about me.
AFF
You cop to over-exaggeration then make the EXACT SAME OVEREXAGGERATION. Come on. Clearly it's a straw man.
Read the fucking anecdote before you come back and play, btw.
Neither is it OK for tired, stressed, put-upon service workers to take out their frustrations on clients/customers/patrons. Does it happen anyway? Yes. Is it more likely to happen during the year-end holidays? Yup.
If you do, as reported, have some good interactions with customers, take pride and satisfaction in that as a way of caring for yourself. Focus on those positives as a way to get you through the temporary crap job, recognize that it ALWAYS takes two to tango, and do what you need to do to survive (as long as it doesn't involve dumping on the customers, which could get you fired).
Stop looking at the world in black-and-white. When a job exceeds your limits for crapness, get out. As long as you can tolerate the crap parts, exercise self-care by focusing on its positives: it pays (some of) the bills. It gets you out of the house. It may offer some social opportunities. It organizes your day. It may lead to something better. And so on.
You want to have things all one way? Better start universe-shopping; that's not how this one works.
Wow, abuse in place of argument. You are really swinging for the fences in the logical fallacies derby.
I read the fucking anecdote, as you so quaintly put it. The woman looked directly at the customer, then looked away. That's called the "cut direct" and as LC pointed out it is the atom bomb of passive aggression. This is in a different league from "they didn't help me right away." Perhaps you are not used to such social niceties; your behavior on this posts suggests this may be the case.
But if disagreeing with you = dick-swinging one-upmanship, you must really have a hard time here on the Ship, with people disagreeing with you all over the place. Poor soul.
Good to note that your modus operandi of flinging accusations of logical fallacies at others doesn’t count as abuse; just pointing out the facts, eh? What a samaritan. Gold star.
Again, to repeat my claim for the nth-time, poorly compensated service workers are allowed to be passive aggressive. It’s part and parcel. What you consistently leave out in your response to the fucking anecdote, since I like that we’re going with that term now, is that the cashier was in the middle of something. The anecdote doesn’t relate how long the customer was kept on hold, it doesn’t relate what the task involving the cashier was, and it tells us nothing about the circumstances of the cashier. We’re supposed to pillory this person because they didn’t behave how we expect or think they should have handled the situation. All I’ve been saying is that the person is just that, a person. A person with a shitty job who has every right to be passive aggressive, and who literally caused no harm to anyone. None. (Good rhetorical flourish by the way on your original response.)
It’s worth noting that several posters here have offered justifications for being shitty to service workers. So, actually, yes, people are stating that it’s okay to abuse service workers.
I think it’s well-intentioned that you’re offering me life advice on how to handle bad jobs, but it does come across as patronizing. Thanks, I guess, though.
I am not looking at the world in black-and-white. I’m literally saying we should be seeing service workers as multi-dimensional and not just wage-workers who have to labor as we demand of them because they’re paid a wage. There’s nothing black-and-white about what I’m suggesting. I’m saying wage-laborers should be forgiven some behavior because of their shitty circumstances, and that commodity-purchasers should be more tolerant of these behaviors because of those circumstances.
Again, I’m pretty surprised that I have to defend service workers on a place as liberal as this. It bears repeating: weird world.
I don't think anybody has a right to be passive aggressive.
I think minimum wage service workers with shitty working conditions are to be given leeway.
Offering explanations for events does not equal offering "justifications" for them.
Don't want to be patronized? Stop posting like a 4-year-old.
News flash # 1: when companies hire us to perform certain functions at certain times in certain ways, we are literally agreeing to perform those functions in those ways at those times in exchange for the crap wage (and benefits, if any) they offer. We are all free to try negotiating for more; we are also free to reject the agreement or try for a better deal elsewhere, and both parties are free to terminate the agreement at any time. Don't like this set-up (which does, indeed, suck)? Invent your own job and work for yourself.
Having done the latter on occasion during the last half-century or so, here's news-flash # 2: self-employed, self-directed workers still sometimes have to deal with crap.
News flash # 3: You don't have to defend service workers. You're not required to post here.
You're free to walk away, ignore us, and go elsewhere.
In fact, you're not "defending" anyone. You're asking that service workers not be held accountable for violations of the employer / worker agreement.
The employer / worker agreement? That’s cute. Where is that? In the silly piece of paper a worker has to sign to be allowed to live? That’s not an agreement; that’s a bill of sale for a worker’s labor-power that they’re coerced into signing. Workers should be held accountable when they do something actually morally wrong, like theft, assault, or something else that actually violates morality. Just being a disagreeable person doesn’t violate any imagined agreement. I’ve been arguing that a worker’s disagreeableness is perfectly understandable if you think about their shitty conditions.
You’re welcome to be the wage-slave defending your and others denigration and abasement; I’m not inclined to do so.
Tell me, do you not hold yourself to higher standards than that?
My mother would have had my hide if I had ever treated anybody that way--and employment (shitty or otherwise) has nothing to do with it. It has to do with respect for yourself as a person--a person who is valuable enough not to treat others like shit.
And did you miss the part where I said I too worked retail? It's how I got through school. So we're talking years, here--not a month over summer vacation. I know what shitty customers are like. And I know what it's like to treat them with unwavering civility, because whatever they are doesn't matter. It's who I am that matters. And I am not going to be that kind of person.
I’ve been saying this whole time that service workers are excused, justified, whatever, in their bad behavior because of their bad working conditions. I’ve been advocating for others to adopt this perspective. The general response has been, nah man, they have a job so they should be cool with it. I disagree. Here’s the summary of my position: unpleasant/rude/whatever interaction with a service worker? Smile, understand they have shitty conditions, move on with your life.
You can heap all the scorn you wish on "silly" pieces of paper--degrees, contracts, licenses, mortgages, certificates, etc.--but scorn won't get you far when someone takes you to court for violating the terms involved.
Don't like the terms? Don't sign. Who is holding a gun to the retail worker's head when she agrees to work in Ladies Undergarments (I could tell you stories)? Who compels the waiter to accept the job where the boss is nasty during the interview? Whose fault is it if the clerk agrees to an employer's offer of $10/hr instead of asking for $15? Will they agree to $15? Almost certainly not; but they might settle at $12.50 -- $100/week more than the original offer.
The situation of low-wage workers is bad, but asking customers (many of whom are ALSO poorly-paid, stressed out, and overtired) and employers to overlook bad service is the wrong solution to workers' problems. Unionize. Demand higher pay, better benefits, better conditions, and better treatment.
Since I was there, I think the Till assistant was taking her lead from the older (more senior?) women she was talking to. 'If Senga isn't bothering, I don't need too'. Did Senga see me? I was within a couple of feet of her - but maybe the nomenclature of frock necklines really is that attention-absorbing.
I googled employee opinions about this particular firm (just everything is on the 'net). Some thought it paid well, some badly (the UK has a Minimum Wage, which it seems to pay slightly above. But this does not apply below a certain age, so the younger ones were probably the more discontented). Some loved working there, rather more didn't. It was boring. It was too busy. It was cliquey. It was friendly. Mostly, it was all the fault of the Management.
So, typical workplace...
Having said that, I'm careful how I treat staff when complaining. Even if their companies have behaved in a vile fashion there's no reason why they should take a hit on the chin because of my ire. Also if I see people working in jobs that seem pretty thankless, I give them licence to be a bit grumpy and uncaring. In fact what really amazes me are the number of people working in shitty jobs who nevertheless are cheerful and friendly. Jobs where if I had them I would be spitting gravel.
If I don’t put them in the position of being ‘the enemy’ they can be more willing to help me find a way through the problem. I’m human, so it doesn’t always work, but I’ve never had worse service for being nice to people.
I don’t think a worker is being taken to court because they were rude to a customer. Of course, given the way the courts exist to further capital, could happen, but it seems unlikely.
Workers have to sign the term if they want to live. No one wants to work at Walmart, one of the most despicable companies around. They have to because they need to pay bills, try to support a family, and eek out some semblance of a happy life. The employers determine how workers will labor and on what terms, the worker has virtually no say in it. They do not meet as juridical equals.
It is also virtually impossible to unionize now. I’ve tried, but at least in CT and NY there are laws that effectively make all unionizing impossible. Sure, I’ll keep demanding higher wages and better conditions, but one of the only ways that will change is if other poorly paid, stressed out customers who are workers recognize themselves in service workers and respond accordingly. Be kind, do unto others, build class consciousness.
@ECraigRNot expecting pleasant service from a cashier or clerk because they make minimum wage is disrespectful to the worker and their job. All honest work deserves to be done well.
My son is already dreading the worst two weeks of the year at Walmart. Immediately following Christmas comes the long lines at the returns desk. Everyone is angry.
I do know what you're saying. And you make a good point that a shit wage for an unrewarding job is unlikely to inspire much in the way of a bushy-tailed response! There is no excuse for a customer pushing their own ignorance or frustration onto the shoulders of the lowlier paid, bottom-of-the-ladder employee. Or treating waiting staff, or till operators eg, dismissively or carelessly. But customers don't wish to be treated dismissively or carelessly either. A customer isn't paid to go into the shop, but is paying to BE there, if purchasing something. So ignoring customers, when the reasonable alternative is to acknowledge them, is not excusable either.
But maybe it's a culture thing, or a semantics thing. You seem to be reading some other expectation into Firenze's and my post that isn't actually there. As a school kid (before minimum wage and certain child labour regulations) I worked in my uncle's newsagents on the counter for years, on a tough housing estate where quarter was neither given nor taken. Child though I was and paid in mouse-farts, I was still expected to treat the customer as if their being there was a good thing. (Though, admittedly rude customers could be told where they could alternately deposit their cash, if things got heated - though not by me, I should add!)
And when I started work, leaving school, my (poorly-paid) work was often telephone contact with, effectively, government-related clients, and reception work. So it was not always pleasant or happy-smiley interactions we're talking! Nevertheless, I did my job which included keeping a civil tongue in my head when dealing with the general public, despite the occasional irksomeness or boredom of the work I was being paid to do. Perhaps, an element of self-respect also comes into it; knowing that one is doing a good job. And as the saying goes: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
And - as with back then - I don't think even 'shitty' jobs are that plentiful. Not in the UK, at any rate, or any part I've lived in. Or rather, the jobs even if they were plentiful, the likelihood of success of getting one, not high.
I don't expect anyone to be bushy-tailed about doing what they might consider to be a crap job. I remember what that felt like myself. And actually it's lovely how many people in retail and service are cheerful, polite and helpful, from till-operators in Tesco's to the (usually) young folk at the McDonald's drive-thru window. But again with the 'kindness'? Who expects 'kindness'? Appropriate effective service, yes.
Just as an aside, when I get fed up with some people's attitudes towards using clergy as 'staff' for their weddings and funerals etc, I DO remind myself that we have set ourselves up as servants, and in a sense part of the penalty of that is that often we will be treated that way! But in line with 1 Corinthians 12, the so-called 'lowlier' the work undertaken by the worker, the more carefully and respectfully they should be treated. By all means, treat your vicar like a vaguely unwanted but compulsory 'extra' at your wedding video. But be a decent human being to the person who'll spend four hours on their feet serving your reception dinner and keeping your wine glass topped up for the tuppence ha'penny they'll get at the end of the night.
Why be rude? I have been in the kinds of job you describe and being civil was one way of making it possible in that it didn't lay the ground for an uncivil response to uncivil behaviour.
I know that many jobs don't properly remunerate the people who do them but none of us will rise above anything if we go for the lowest common denominator of barely concealed disdain for the job and customer.
1. It is bad behaviour as it will lead to a company losing business. Mine probably if you were the customer and you were deliberating trying to tell me who's boss. I am not the boss there just for the record, we are trying to work together.
2. Not to me and, I'd suggest, to loads of others. Be civil and others will treat you the same. Be rude, dismissive and keep people waiting? You'll reap what you sow if they stay as customers … if they don't then why complain that you'll lose your job?
Incivility brings to more complaints, higher costs, reduced profits and redundancy. Hey Presto! You're on the dole again.
I, after a working life in information services, am so wired for helpfulness that I will sometimes respond to the bemused tourist (of which Edinburgh has so many) with directions before they ask. OTOH, it probably up my expectations of positive response from other people.
I did not say I was a surly bus driver. I have said many fucking times that I tolerate surly attitudes because I understand the working conditions. I, however, value kindness above all else.
Perhaps before flinging unfounded accusations and assumptions you should read what I actually wrote.
:killingme:
When I was in college, I worked as a bank teller during summer breaks. It's a fairly thankless job: after all, you're dealing with the one thing most precious to your customers - their money - and none of them treat you properly.
(One summer, when working in the motor bank from mid-afternoon until 9, and doing my student teaching during the day, I got a customer who pulled up at 8:59:45, and, of course, had to take her transaction; although desperately tired, I took care of it, then started to close up. She sent in another one. I took care of it, and again started to close up. She started honking her car horn and pressing the call button: "Wait! I have more!" It turned out that she had six more transactions, and was planning to simply send them in one at a time. I asked her to send them in all at once - and my supervisor, who was probably almost as exhausted as I was, got in on it - and we were able to finish it all up in about ten minutes. It would have been at least another hour if she'd kept sending them individually. She was, frankly, an inconsiderate idiot - but I was polite, and kept smiling. That was a part of my minimum-wage job. It's also a part of me: Be polite, be kind; even when dealing with someone inexcusably rude, don't descend to their level. It's really not that hard.)
It’s also important that we be kind and compassionate when we encounter a service worker who does not meet that bar because of so many circumstances.
And like any relationship, there are expectations on the behaviour of both sides.
Wasting the other person's time is inconsiderate. On both sides.
I always maintained composure and good cheer on the floor. I was a favorite of the residents, even though their personalities were very difficult often due to medication.
Occasionally I would get the comment “You seem so happy in your work” as if anybody my age could possibly actually enjoy the grinding physical emotional and mental labour that is dining room service.
My reply was always “Thank you for noticing. If I seem happy its because I am doing my job as a professional”
This answer always flummoxed them. They would repeat their remark as if I hadn’t understood, as if they needed reassurance that I was indeed happy. And I would simply repeat the answer.
Its as if on some level they had some idea of how overworked and underpaid I was and needed to feel better by thinking I was being compensated in life enjoyment.
I would never ever make the mistake of thinking that someone in a service position is there because they love the work. I startv from there and work forward in all my transactions.
AFF
As to the first part: Ha! You're not always polite and kind. You're plenty rude on these boards at times. And thank goodness!
More important: Accommodating someone's bad behavior is not always the best thing. Your bank customer was able to get you to work past closing and no doubt did the same thing to others. Had she been turned away, she'd have learned to show up earlier.
I frequently am asked to work when I've clocked out and am on my way out the door, and unless it's something that will take less than a minute, I don't accommodate these requests. It's illegal to ask someone to work off the clock, and it happens so often, I could easily end up giving hours of unpaid labor. It took a while, but my supervisor eventually learned to respect my free time. There are too many church members, not to mention the public, to train them all, but I'm not going to take 20 minutes out of my lunch hour to help someone who doesn't want to recognize that we close 12-1, and I'm not staying past 5 when my supervisor has made it clear that there is no budget for overtime pay. I'm polite about it, but I stand firm.
That's interesting to read from a person whose posting career has been primarily about enjoying wasting other people's time.
Also: I hope you are eaten alive by weevils starting at your rectum.
I had no choice; it was the bank's policy. And I did get paid for the extra time.
And you are absolutely right to do so.
Seconded!
I bet the person being really rude to you was probably the same person who is rude to his child's teacher, the doctor's receptionist, the dustman.... it's an attitude of mind some people have, regardless of who they are dealing with.