UK Election Rant thread

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  • Labour has always been a coalition between the democratic socialists and the social democrats. The democratic socialists held their noses and voted for social democratic policies, in the hope that some of theirs would also get through. Then, when the democratic socialists were in charge - melt down.

    And from the voters' point of view? Where did these centre-left moderates end up that would have voted Labour, but couldn't bring themselves to vote for 'hard left' Corbyn? They didn't end up voting for the centre-right LDs. They either voted for the nationalist SNP, or for the hard right Tories, or the neo-fascist Brexits. So I'm calling bullshit on this whole 'a moderate left leader would have won'.

    The fact is, if it had been left to the 18-24s, the Tories would have been utterly annihilated. Bring in the next decade of voters, and they maybe could have picked up one or two seats. This is the cohort that that's coming up, and they are fucking pissed.
  • I don't know, I think it is possible that the centrists didn't vote.
  • I think it more likely that for this election at least, the 'centrists' didn't exist. And I'm not sure that they have existed for a while.

    Left: rights for all
    Right: lol no.
    Centrist: ...

    Left: free healthcare
    Right: lol no.
    Centrist: ...

    I mean, it's not hard, is it?
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    And from the voters' point of view? Where did these centre-left moderates end up that would have voted Labour, but couldn't bring themselves to vote for 'hard left' Corbyn? They didn't end up voting for the centre-right LDs. They either voted for the nationalist SNP, or for the hard right Tories, or the neo-fascist Brexits. So I'm calling bullshit on this whole 'a moderate left leader would have won'.

    And per the latest Ashcroft polls, it appears that it was largely down to a percentage of Labour Leavers switching to the Tories. It would also be interesting to see how true this is, I certainly detect a small amount of it among some of the people I know.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I think it more likely that for this election at least, the 'centrists' didn't exist. And I'm not sure that they have existed for a while.

    Left: rights for all
    Right: lol no.
    Centrist: ...

    Left: free healthcare
    Right: lol no.
    Centrist: ...

    I mean, it's not hard, is it?

    I can't explain it. The whole thing is a fucking nightmare.

    The poorest have somehow swallowed enough magic mushrooms to hallucinate that the Tories will do anything positive for them and their lives. Those who should know better have sat back and let it happen.
  • Telford wrote: »
    I was always struck by the fact that although Corbyn and McDonnell had been in Parliament for many many years, no Labour leader ever trusted them enough to give them any sort of job. This was nothing to do with the right wing press.
    John McDonnell only entered Parliament in 1997 (as part of Tony Blair's landslide) so it would have been difficult for Kinnock to give him a Shadow Cabinet role.

    Jeremy Corbyn was busy writing for The Morning Star plus, as a member of the Campaign Group, it may have been thought he would not be a natural "fit"? In addition, Labour in opposition backed the government line on Sinn Fein and the IRA so appointing JC to a Shadow role would not have sat happily with that.

  • In addition, Labour in opposition backed the government line on Sinn Fein and the IRA so appointing JC to a Shadow role would not have sat happily with that.

    Even while the Conservative government was holding clandestine talks with the IRA...
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    I think this election result deserves some sober theological analysis.

    There’s a lot more from where that came https://youtu.be/jpgUKVAQcSs
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    In addition, Labour in opposition backed the government line on Sinn Fein and the IRA so appointing JC to a Shadow role would not have sat happily with that.

    Even while the Conservative government was holding clandestine talks with the IRA...

    I know. But then logic seems to melt like morning dew in and around Westminster.
  • I have to admit, the failure of the Lib Dems has me scratching my head. Admittedly, Swinson came across as naive, and the policy of revoke idiotic, but their crash gives the lie to the idea of the centre gaining power. I thought the LDs were centrism personified. I don't know what this says about Labour, but it casts doubt on the idea that we should revert to Blairism. As noted above, the young would vomit over this. Then again, somebody like Starmer is not very left.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    Blahblah wrote: »
    My goodness. This is going to be a huge amount of fun if the racist and bigoted Christian community swings behind Johnson as a harbringer of the Second Coming.

    I hate Christianity sometimes. At best it is a beautiful idea. At worst it is Nazi-supporting bullshit.

    This.

    BTW, I thought Trump was God's Anointed One? Can God really have two ?
    :scream:

  • My post election fb feed goes like this:
    SNP voters: Hahahaha! We’re off! Also, do move to Scotland.
    Tory voters: Some twee cartoon of piglet & pooh holding hands and a plea that we can still be friends.
    Labour voters: Oh shit. Anyway, here’s how to support your local food bank.

    Yup

    Agreed. The food bank bins in our local Tesco were full this morning...
  • So, anyone remember Operation Yellowhammer any more? "A little bit of bread and no cheese"? Even Marie Antoinette wished brioche on her nation.

    He will get his no deal because it's easiest for him. The MPs who protected us in the autumn have been voted out.

    But it's OK because those affected by disruption to the drinking water supply will be only in the hundreds of thousands. Remember to buy water purification tablets that can be used with rain water, as fuel supplies are likely to be disrupted as well.

    Or not, maybe he will get some kind of deal, IDK. But voting for anyone who would even threaten us with that is unbelievable.
  • Children, children! Do play nicely> (Note to host: that is ironic, given that this is Hell.)
  • My post election fb feed goes like this:
    SNP voters: Hahahaha! We’re off! Also, do move to Scotland.
    Tory voters: Some twee cartoon of piglet & pooh holding hands and a plea that we can still be friends.
    Labour voters: Oh shit. Anyway, here’s how to support your local food bank.

    Yup

    Agreed. The food bank bins in our local Tesco were full this morning...

    Part of me thinks that the quicker we let it go to shit, the faster we get rid of the Tories.

    I - and a great many other people - have been propping up the core functions of the state for the better part of a decade. Might it be time to simply withdraw that?
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    My post election fb feed goes like this:
    SNP voters: Hahahaha! We’re off! Also, do move to Scotland.
    Tory voters: Some twee cartoon of piglet & pooh holding hands and a plea that we can still be friends.
    Labour voters: Oh shit. Anyway, here’s how to support your local food bank.

    Yup

    Agreed. The food bank bins in our local Tesco were full this morning...

    Part of me thinks that the quicker we let it go to shit, the faster we get rid of the Tories.

    I - and a great many other people - have been propping up the core functions of the state for the better part of a decade. Might it be time to simply withdraw that?

    But they can wait you out for 5 years?
  • There is a line of reasoning that is utterly brutal but totally pragmatic: if people realise how shit it actually is, they're more likely to take to the streets and revolt. Yes, people will die, but they're dying now, hidden away in unheated bedsits and hospital corridors. Better get it all out in the open: if the fuckers want to kill me, they're going to have to waste a bullet.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    My post election fb feed goes like this:
    SNP voters: Hahahaha! We’re off! Also, do move to Scotland.
    Tory voters: Some twee cartoon of piglet & pooh holding hands and a plea that we can still be friends.
    Labour voters: Oh shit. Anyway, here’s how to support your local food bank.

    Yup

    Agreed. The food bank bins in our local Tesco were full this morning...

    Part of me thinks that the quicker we let it go to shit, the faster we get rid of the Tories.

    I - and a great many other people - have been propping up the core functions of the state for the better part of a decade. Might it be time to simply withdraw that?

    I'm not sure how you do that without utterly destroying individual people who are vulnerable.

    I'm reasonably sure that's the Tory plan; they think they can withdraw services because the church/es will just pick up the slack.

    Well we won't, you utter arses. You made this mess, you sort it out.
  • The best short rant I have seen on social media:

    The problem is not that politicians have lied, but that the electorate is OK with it.
  • TelepathTelepath Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    So Steve Peers thinks that a no-trade-deal disaster is avoidable: https://prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/what-would-a-conservative-majority-mean-for-brexit-exit-poll-boris-johnson whereas Chris Grey thinks it's probable: https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-brexit-dystopia-bequeathed-by-this.html

    To say nothing of everything else.

    [Hosting: The second link is messed up, and I can't seem to fix it. I shall seek assistance. /Hosting - Rossweisse]

    [fixed it with mighty admin-fu - Eutychus]
  • If we were going to strategically remove support from vulnerable people, the time to do it probably isn't five years before the next election.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin
    edited December 2019
    If I was a sociopathic demagogue, that's exactly when I'd do it. Straight after the election, publicly wash my hands and say, sorry: this is what was voted for.

    Then we'd see the effects of 20,000 police off the streets and all those closed fire stations.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    However, Labour will still need a moderate leader with sensible policies.
    As far as I was concerned, we'd hit the sweet spot. A democratic socialist whose spending plans would put us at a European average.

    But apparently, the right-wing press now have to pick the Labour party leader, so that was that.

    I was always struck by the fact that although Corbyn and McDonnell had been in Parliament for many many years, no Labour leader ever trusted them enough to give them any sort of job. This was nothing to do with the right wing press.

    Really? You're surprised that Kinnock and Blair didn't want anyone left wing in their shadow cabinets? Also, what makes you think either were looking to take the ministerial career path? Besides, the chances that either would be able to go 6 months before resigning in disgust over some awful crap the leadership were doing is minimal and the leaders knew that.

    When they got the chance to implement their ideas, they jumpd at it.
  • Well, in the next five years - my biggest desire is that we avoid an outright civil war.

    Following on from that, sufficient community organisation to protect the vulnerable.

    Following on from that enough community resistance to prevent the entire privatisation of key public services, so that there is at least something to build back from.
  • Simple monosyllabic slogans seem to be how you get ‘cut through’ nowadays - and fuck the policy detail. So labour should run with:
    • They don’t care about you: insert blindingly obvious clause here e.g. that’s why you can’t gp appointment x a million variations
    • Patriots don’t let their country crumble: so why is insert blinding obvious clause here e.g. so why is your school roof leaking
    • Invest to grow: insert blindingly obvious clause here e.g. jobs / economy / community
    • Great Britain is when we pull together: insert blindingly obvious clause / video montage with nostalgia here e.g. blitz, floods, olympics, street parties

    Actual policy platform should be effectively the edited highlights of the 2019 manifesto. Basically:
    • Nationalise one thing (railways cos most of the country wants that and it’s easy to explain you just do it each time a franchise ends or fails)
    • Green new deal = cos good jobs, good for planet and addresses housing
    • Some kind of viable social care plan cos no one has one

    Every social media ad should be matched by a newspaper ad and a billboard campaign on the same theme, and we should be doing this monthly, for the next five years.

    Should run a rebuttal unit, from now, responding to smears within 24 hrs.

    There should be a return of collective responsibility and message discipline with the parliamentary party.

    No candidate should be selected for any position without a five year social media content check.

    Labour should read all social media back for five years for every public position held by a post holder from another party - and content check - all hate speech should be reported to the Equalities commission and the police - each constituency party should set up a process for doing this for politicians in their own geographical area.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    @Doublethink - well said.

    Some interesting thoughts, but far too sensible for a fair proportion of the population of Borisland to grasp...
  • What really really really REALY gets me is that we have been told that we have 10 years to save the planet.

    And it has been made clear that we have to make fundamental, core, changes to our society, to our culture.

    And people watched Blue Planet 2 and saw the danger, the disaster that we are causing to our planet. We saw - even just the week before - the new Attenborough. And we all said "Oh this is terrible".

    And we have voted to not change.
  • And we have voted to not change.

    Because it turns out that some people, not just some companies, have stranded costs.
  • Or, too many voted to not change. Here 1153 voted to Demand Climate Action. Labour, LibDem, SNP, PC had decent policies on the environment ... and of those only the SNP won (and, it's unlikely to be their policies on the environment that did it for them). The Conservatives have no environmental policy at all, or rather they have a policy to continue screwing the planet as long as their rich donors are all right and can continue to rob the rest of the world of a future so that they'll have the means of buying their way out of the consequences.
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    And now the Labour Party are tearing themselves to pieces. Inevitable, I suppose, but there’s going to be even less opposition to / controls on Johnson. Lord have mercy 🕯.
  • I think it is inevitable, and even necessary. If they had a calm reasoned debate, I would be suspicious.
  • Nothing effective will be done about climate change as long as there is a lunatic in the White House who insists that the whole thing is a hoax.
  • On a slightly (VERY slightly!) more hopeful note, I see that the Green Party greatly increased its share of the vote in several places. Still only one MP at Westminster, alas, though Caroline Lucas (IMHO) is worth ten or more tory MPs...

    Next year's local elections may have a similar result, with increasing pressure on the Mad Mophead, and his lackeys, to take things more seriously.

    O look - a whole Flock of Pigs, passing overhead.... :grimace:
  • On a slightly (VERY slightly!) more hopeful note, I see that the Green Party greatly increased its share of the vote in several places. Still only one MP at Westminster, alas, though Caroline Lucas (IMHO) is worth ten or more tory MPs...

    She is worth a party full of Tories.

    The problem is, even though the vote went up, it is irrelevant in the current system and parliament.

    In a hung parliament, it would have been relevant - whoever had the power. But not in the hung drawn and quartered parliament we have.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Suspended
    edited December 2019
    I fear that unfortunately any MP who is not a Tory is simply a bit-part in the drama that is this parliament.

    Most of the real action will happen away from the House of Commons, so it seems like it would be an entirely fair thing for Caroline Lucas and other opposition MPs to find other ways to use their time rather than banging heads against that wall.

    The Tories will no doubt attempt to wear them out. The challenge is going to be avoiding the obvious traps.
  • On a slightly (VERY slightly!) more hopeful note, I see that the Green Party greatly increased its share of the vote in several places. Still only one MP at Westminster, alas, though Caroline Lucas (IMHO) is worth ten or more tory MPs...

    She is worth a party full of Tories.

    The problem is, even though the vote went up, it is irrelevant in the current system and parliament.

    In a hung parliament, it would have been relevant - whoever had the power. But not in the hung drawn and quartered parliament we have.

    This.

    Alas.

  • Doone wrote: »
    And now the Labour Party are tearing themselves to pieces. Inevitable, I suppose, but there’s going to be even less opposition to / controls on Johnson. Lord have mercy 🕯.

    Even with the most brilliant leader in the world, Labour aren't going to get much opposing done immediately after an election where the Tories won such a sweeping victory. There needs to be impassioned debate within the party, and this is the best time to have it.
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    Mm, I take your point and reluctantly agree.
  • where the Tories won such a sweeping victory

    They put on an extra, what, 200k votes? The final seat tally flatters them enormously, and in any other even vaguely proportional system, they'd be fuming on the opposition benches right now. Remember that.
  • Yes, very strange, a party with a minority vote, wins big. We're used to it!
  • Blahblah wrote: »
    Sterling is soaring and the share markets are going up.

    I'd be fascinated to know what the traders and stockbrokers know that I don't.

    I remember these halcyon days. Of last week.
  • Zac Goldsmith, rejected by his constituency, elevated to the peerage so he can go on in cabinet.
  • Apparently Johnson is waiting to see how Goldsmith and Morgan get on as Cabinet Ministers in the Lords. If it works, he might give that a dabble himself.
  • In other news, the Jewish Chronicle has managed to upset even the British Board of Deputies by publishing a comment piece by she-who-will-not-be-named suggesting that Islamophobia is Not A Real Thing.

  • Thatcher's back?
  • Yes, I was wondering who she-who-will-not-be-named might be. Mrs Rumpole? (But she was she who must be obeyed!)
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    Do not try to name Her! Or the Curse of Cthulhu will fall upon you, even worse than it has already!
    :scream: :scream:

    Those are not locks of hair, waving around the Bonce of the Mad Mophead.

    They are TENTACLES!
  • Blahblah wrote: »
    In other news, the Jewish Chronicle has managed to upset even the British Board of Deputies by publishing a comment piece by she-who-will-not-be-named suggesting that Islamophobia is Not A Real Thing.

    Stephen Pollard is such an arse.
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    Yes, I was wondering who she-who-will-not-be-named might be. Mrs Rumpole? (But she was she who must be obeyed!)

    Apart from anything else she's stated that the concept of Islamaphobia is in itself anti-Semitic.
This discussion has been closed.