Living with XY Chromosomes

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  • PG that link isn't working for me, but your story is.

    I am useless with DIY, although I did manage to paint most of the house a few years ago. My wife does all of the IKEA stuff. I just hold things. I get no satisfaction whatsoever from it. For me, DIY is like washing your car, time utterly wasted.



  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    @Pangolin Guerre I am with you on the crying, and I don’t care much how other people react - I see it as having an emotional range of expression that some others actually envy, too.

    On the practical / craft skills side, this article on mens’ crafting (knitting, sewing, lacemaking etc) is interesting and germane, in the context of an exhibition to profile their (artistic-level) work, when in earlier exhibitions only 3 men (vs 3754 women) had participated.

    It was especially interesting to read about knitting for two reasons. First, because of the report that some men would not knit in public for fear of homophobic attacks. Second, because I did not even know (until reading) that there was an upper echelon of ‘art knitting’ (There is an example art work, (by Kate Just) shown in the article).

    I personally have no craft skills or diy skills, but I can cook a bit and am very efficient at housework and gardening. Efficient, of course, is not always the same as effective...

  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    @Pangolin Guerre, your link doesn't work for me?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    The link was broken, but this link works
  • That link's fantastic - thanks PG. Their work contrasts painfully with mine - later this morning I have a health and safety meeting, where I will be harangued at great length over piles of paperwork required to demonstrate the safety of an already safe thing to people whose jobs depend on that paperwork. Meanwhile those guys broke their ankles and drowned if they were no good at it.

    I wish I'd been a lumberjack... :smile:
  • mousethief wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    @lilbuddha are you hear to listen to those of us who are male trying to make sense of what we are? Or are you here to make snarky comments and belittle us?
    I am listening. I am not making snarky comments. It is not my aim to belittle anyone. I am discussing the issues raised because this is a discussion board.

    It seems an awful lot like, "Don't talk about men, talk about women! We can be handy too!" Exactly what men are accused of doing to conversations women have about themselves.
    No. It is exploring what masculinity is. Were this in all-saints, I would have a different approach, if I participated at all. However, it being in one of the discussion forums, I am exploring the topics that arise.
    And your reading of my words is a bit bazaar. My point in that is that negative reaction to gender non-conformity is something all genders face.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    It's not just social pressure. Though I remember the shopkeeper's expression of incredulity when, in a rare moment of mother-daughter bonding, she bought me an electric drill.

    But I never got much beyond shelves because once I tried some avowedly simple project out of the DIY magazine it was obvious there was a whole hinterland of tools and equipment of which I had no experience. My mother didn't have a workshop either, but went to woodworking classes - but armed with a familiarity with saws and vices and mitre boxes and lathes that she picked up from her father.

    That may just be a feature of moving into an urban world, but it is easier to keep a sewing machine or a bag of knitting in a small flat than a workbench or a kiln.
  • edited December 2019
    Firenze wrote: »
    That may just be a feature of moving into an urban world

    That made me smile Firenze, here in what used to be the inner-city. I built a small shed to get the lathe out of the dining room (happy semi-D neighbour) but then replaced it with a harmonium. Our houses are so close together than if I'm not careful I can fill about 10 back yards with the stench of burning waste oil, if something goes wrong with the home foundry! :smile:

    (ETA - your 'hinterland' point is a really good one. When instructions say 'find a bit of brass rod in your scrap box' you've either got it or you haven't. Sewing machine stuff can be a bit like that, or electronics IME; it's daunting (and not at all cost-effective) to try to start those kind of projects by buying new everything on the list, and as a newcomer you're never quite sure what corners to cut, and what corners NOT to cut. Internet fora can be really good for that kind of knowledge, if you find a patient well-moderated one).
  • You're not wrong. Each job has its own tools, and they are incredibly specific.

    There's an incredible plumbing shop near to where I live. It's proper old school, and I feel compelled to learn the lingo *before* I go and get the part, as opposed to handing over the broken bit and asking for "another one of these".
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    At first glance I read 'Internet flora can be really good...'

    Would I have taken to knitting and sewing with such gay abandon without the maternal modelling? Probably, and been better at it, since I would have had to learn how to do it rather than assuming I could.

    Maybe that's the case with everything. We grow up assuming we will be/do X, and if we have the talent or the chutzpah or the inability to imagine an alternative, we do.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    There's an incredible plumbing shop near to where I live. It's proper old school, and I feel compelled to learn the lingo *before* I go and get the part, as opposed to handing over the broken bit and asking for "another one of these".

    I feel something perhaps like that in a butchers. 'What can I get you sir'...'well, I'd been hoping for some meat...' or barbers shop (not been for decades, perhaps because of this - ) '...errr, I was hoping to leave with shorter hair.'
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    'Dos of them there, por favor'* gets you most things.

    I can't tell round from chuck; I go by price - the cheaper it is the longer you cook it.

    *uttered by a classmate of Mr F on First Ever Time Abroad from NI.
  • We have a wonderful hardware shop in a local village. By now they are used to me describing what I want something to do, and then finding it for me.
  • We have a wonderful hardware shop in a local village. By now they are used to me describing what I want something to do, and then finding it for me.

    You'd be a fun customer to serve, but don't ever piss them off - you don't know what you might come home with :smile:

    Firenze - when you said you go by price, I guess I'm not meant to say 'give me 3 quids worth of the cheapest meat you've got'? (Actually, maybe that has potential, given the way the rest of our life here works. 'Have you got any bits no-one else likes to eat, preferably that you have to pay to have taken away by a licensed waste operator?' :smiley: ).
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I remember a witty speech at a Burn's Supper from someone who had been a diplomat posted to Switzerland. She had been endeavouring to make haggis - asked if they had the meats - 'Yes madam, but we don't sell them to feed people'

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    There's an incredible plumbing shop near to where I live. It's proper old school, and I feel compelled to learn the lingo *before* I go and get the part, as opposed to handing over the broken bit and asking for "another one of these".

    I feel something perhaps like that in a butchers. 'What can I get you sir'...'well, I'd been hoping for some meat...' or barbers shop (not been for decades, perhaps because of this - ) '...errr, I was hoping to leave with shorter hair.'

    Do they ask which of the 3 you'd like shortened?
  • edited December 2019
    :smile: If I were (more) bald, it might make the 'style' discussion bit easier - as it is, clippers are my friend and I'm the guy who smells faintly of WD40...

    But there's a corner of XY life we have not yet explored, pop-pickers - shall we segue local-radio style off in a new slap-head direction?
  • I used to have waist-length hair. I now just about have enough hair to justify going to the barbers every six weeks or so for a no.2.

    The rest of me? Oh, dear Lord. I realise that there is a vogue amongst younger, more groomed men for a bit of manscaping, but seriously, fuck that shit. I'll trim my earhair down to acceptable levels, but otherwise, no.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    manscaping

    It's generally true that I must refrain from blurting out to people who comment that I've lost hair how the rest of my dermis appears to have massively over-compensated for my scalp. It is clearly an overwhelming net gain of hair. I almost wonder if the loss on top is due to general corporeal limits of follicle production below the tree line, as it were.

    Some of my "lessons learned" from my recent return to the dating pool is how many intimate partners genuinely appreciate a localized reduction of coarse fur. I'm not one to follow fashion vogues in general, but I do see some clear functional benefits to some tactical manscaping.
  • edited December 2019
    Can't see the wood for the trees? :smile: I'm with DT, but then I'm long married and it seems the situation no longer (ahem) arises. (ETA, in wonderment - really - _how many_ intimate partners??).

    (Bring it on - out goes macrame for re-framing gender norms, in comes - knob jokes :smiley: ).
  • (Ah. That 'how many' was a straight quote from Rook, not a question - if enquiring minds want to know, mine isn't one of them!)
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    RooK wrote: »
    It's generally true that I must refrain from blurting out to people who comment that I've lost hair how the rest of my dermis appears to have massively over-compensated for my scalp. It is clearly an overwhelming net gain of hair.

    The late Peter Skellern used to complain that when he lost the hair from his head he was told it would grow on his chest, but instead it had come down his nose.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    It's generally true that I must refrain from blurting out to people who comment that I've lost hair how the rest of my dermis appears to have massively over-compensated for my scalp. It is clearly an overwhelming net gain of hair.

    The late Peter Skellern used to complain that when he lost the hair from his head he was told it would grow on his chest, but instead it had come down his nose.

    The nose hair isn't so bad, because you can face it squarely in the mirror. It's the bloody ear hair that is obnoxious, especially if one wears hearing aids that need to share the same space.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    RooK wrote: »
    Some of my "lessons learned" from my recent return to the dating pool is how many intimate partners genuinely appreciate a localized reduction of coarse fur. I'm not one to follow fashion vogues in general, but I do see some clear functional benefits to some tactical manscaping.

    Welcome to the depilatory hell which is the female lot (albeit not mine, having, like Herrick's Julia, a leg white and hairless as an egg).
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Firenze wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    Some of my "lessons learned" from my recent return to the dating pool is how many intimate partners genuinely appreciate a localized reduction of coarse fur. I'm not one to follow fashion vogues in general, but I do see some clear functional benefits to some tactical manscaping.

    Welcome to the depilatory hell which is the female lot (albeit not mine, having, like Herrick's Julia, a leg white and hairless as an egg).

    Indeed, a great many brave 40-something females I've had "those kinds of conversations" with have been very enlightening about the many facets of follicular wrangling. A commonly-expressed willingness to tolerate the frankly-problematic abrasions of coarse hairs on the shaft of a phallus (exacerbated by prolonged vigorous encounters) appears to often be related to a wish to rock a full Oregonian (local parlance for the opposite of a "Brazilian"). Which is sadly ironic, because the general dating scene seemingly forces most ladies to either suffer "depilatory hell" or have dramatically-reduced prospects - even though it's the male hairs that are actually uncomfortable.
  • Another way in which I've often felt less than manly is in not being hirsute. (This was particularly bad when at school, but that's a cruel environment however you fall out of what is perceived to be "normal".) Therefore I've always been bewildered by those men who are lucky enough to have hairy chests, but who then shave them.
  • Being a walking carpet isn't all it's cracked up to be...

    On the occasions I trouble the local municipal gym, you do get the ... I don't know what to say, really. I've never used weights, never needed to use weights, have no desire to use weights. Apparently it's a thing, but what really puts me off is the other men using the weights. They don't seem to the sort of men I'd want to be. Perhaps it's an air of hyper-masculinity that I'm just utter uncomfortable with. Do they read books? Do they make art? Do they have recipe books? I'm aware I'm stereotyping here, but I don't get that from the lads in the running club.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I'm aware I'm stereotyping here, but I don't get that from the lads in the running club.

    I was going to post something about competition, but now I wonder if it's not just straight vanity that puts me off, and its absence that makes a good scene even where people compete.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    ... I've always been bewildered by those men who are lucky enough to have hairy chests, but who then shave them.

    The grass is always greener ....

    Those hairy-chested men often also have hairy backs, for which there is a lot less demand.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I was going to post something about competition, but now I wonder if it's not just straight vanity that puts me off, and its absence that makes a good scene even where people compete.

    If the vanity is not straight, is it perhaps gay?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I'm sorry, I thought that I had deleted that post. Could a host please get rid of it?
  • As a gay man I'm not offended by it!

    I like the gym, when I get there, because I can go at my own pace without feeling judged. I've never been able to run, so trying to keep up with other people would make me feel inadequate.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I quickly thought of my post and made it. Reflection said that there may be some who would be offended and so I tried to remove it.
  • As a gay man I'm not offended by it!

    I like the gym, when I get there, because I can go at my own pace without feeling judged. I've never been able to run, so trying to keep up with other people would make me feel inadequate.

    tbf, I made sure that I could keep up with other people, before I joined the running club. Which, I suppose, fits in with knowing the names of the widgets before I go and buy them. I don't have much self-confidence (in public), but in private, I am hubris personified: almost everything I have done or am doing is driven by the simple statement "how hard can it be?"

    Obviously, some of the things turn out to be really very hard. But if I fail, I fail with very few people ever knowing about it. Is that why I don't like the weightlifting/bodybuilding aesthetic? That I shrink from anything that smacks of 'look at me'?
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Gee D,

    We try to avoid completely deleting posts. I think it is also probably fine, particularly with your clear desire not to offend anyone.

    Gwai,
    Epiphanies Host
  • RooK wrote: »
    Firenze wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    Some of my "lessons learned" from my recent return to the dating pool is how many intimate partners genuinely appreciate a localized reduction of coarse fur. I'm not one to follow fashion vogues in general, but I do see some clear functional benefits to some tactical manscaping.

    Welcome to the depilatory hell which is the female lot (albeit not mine, having, like Herrick's Julia, a leg white and hairless as an egg).

    Indeed, a great many brave 40-something females I've had "those kinds of conversations" with have been very enlightening about the many facets of follicular wrangling. A commonly-expressed willingness to tolerate the frankly-problematic abrasions of coarse hairs on the shaft of a phallus (exacerbated by prolonged vigorous encounters) appears to often be related to a wish to rock a full Oregonian (local parlance for the opposite of a "Brazilian"). Which is sadly ironic, because the general dating scene seemingly forces most ladies to either suffer "depilatory hell" or have dramatically-reduced prospects - even though it's the male hairs that are actually uncomfortable.
    You must date only white people or brown people who shave. Black female pubic hair can bring a rosy glow to white or light cheeks.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    edited December 2019
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    You must date only white people or brown people who shave.

    My experience is that bushes of all shades can be parted, but I'm also not much bothered by a light rosy glow.

    Admittedly, my understanding of the abrasive effect of a hairy dick is purely second-hand. Maybe you could fill us in.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    I thought dicks were glabrous.

    (ETA Having rather recklessly googled, I now know the shaft isn’t - you learn something new every day, however, as a lesbian I find this of little practical application.)
  • As a gay man, I find such knowledge of distressingly little application much of the time.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    I am now troubled by images of rampant cartoon cocks with crest-like mohawks. I blame Rook.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Gwai wrote: »
    Gee D,

    We try to avoid completely deleting posts. I think it is also probably fine, particularly with your clear desire not to offend anyone.

    Gwai,
    Epiphanies Host

    Thanks
  • Body hair is not an issue for me. I am of the fine blonde (checks chest) virtually invisible type. My eyebrows are invisible unless I have a bad sunburn, my legs, like Firenze's, are white and hairless. I have no need for hi-viz clothing if I wear shorts.

    I have seen ads for an American show called Unicorn, about the adventures of a newly single man on the dating circuit. He apparently has the characteristics of a rare bloke, hence the name of the show. I don't know what it is about him that makes him rare. A snippet I caught recently had him aggressively pursuing a woman for a date, and failing to take no for an answer. I got the distinct impression that it may have been a Harvey Weinstein production.

  • @asher originally posted: "How might we live well as men? What gives us life? What diminishes us?"

    I'd like to kickstart this discussion by raising those questions again. Any takers?
  • Currently, what diminishes me is the knowledge that I've just set myself on fire with a paper shredder. I mean, come on.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Any chance of a video?
  • I can send you an envelope containing rather a lot of crispy hair. I might actually have to go to the barbers later if I can't hide the fact that yes, I've set myself on fire with a paper shredder.
  • Do you think you're taking being a Hell Host too far?
  • Are men better at doing nothing than women? It certainly looks that way in my family, but that's not exactly a broad survey.
  • I think (from personal experience) that those who work outside of the home are better at getting away with doing nothing than those whose work is partially or primarily domestic labour.

    This has traditionally (at least in post-agrarian civilisations) been divided down gender lines, so men who go out of the house to work see their work ending when they leave their place of work. Women whose work encompasses domestic labour will always have work to do, from sun-up to long after sun-down, and moreover, it will be noted (if only by themselves) if that labour is incomplete or substandard.

    But further noting that it is the role, not the gender of the role-filler, that is the problem. I have to stop my paid work to do my domestic work, and vice versa, and there is always more work than hours in which to do it. Honestly, I'm exhausted, but it's been like this for decades and it's now just the water I swim in.
  • Re roles. I am father of daughters. Who have received violence from men. I'm completely intolerant of bigger and stronger men doing anything remotely intimidating. But that's not the point. My daughters may know how to use their knee, their right hook or to "use your words", but it isn't up to me and as much as I want to, and wanted to, I cannot protect them.

    Moving along, I ensured that my children all could do basic mechanical things, including electrical, plumbing, car, bicycle, camping skills. My 110 lb daughter who worked outside in the winter discussed how she jumped on the 1" wrenches to which she added a snipe (piece of pipe) to increase leverage and how she told off the men who didn't think she could manage the work. -- body size and physical capabilities do not determine actual ability when you can problem solve work-arounds. --lack of knowledge because you are male or female and raised in ways to emphasize some activities over others as your competencies is socialization not chromosomes.

    But do chromosomes make a difference? of course they do. You get different genitals, different hormone secretion, different secondary sexual characteristics. Medical people are experimenting on modifying the hormones and physical structures, but that doesn't over-rule the biology that underlies it.
This discussion has been closed.