2 other things, initially I misread your post last night on point 4, (in my defence, your honour, it was post carol service and I may have had a beer...) as that he should have experienced life as most of the U.K. do, which wouldn’t be at all achievable! I think I may have been reacting to that, rather than the idea of relating to most people, but I still stand by my previous post about how doable that actually is.
Also, I think so much of this is about language, and trying to be inclusive. Referring to theological colleges by nicknames such as Staggers is an absolute Grade A example of how not to appeal to people in the club.
We all misread! Not drinking alcohol, I don't experience that form of confusion but grapple with others.
The point I am making is that despite the efforts that have been made, choices are still being sought from a very narrow band of candidates who tend to be nominated by chums.
Yes, language is important but the whole "Staggers" thing is a bit boarding school and past its sell by date don't you think? It doesn't sit well with the kind of conversations I have here which is a UDA.
Also, I think so much of this is about language, and trying to be inclusive. Referring to theological colleges by nicknames such as Staggers is an absolute Grade A example of how not to appeal to people in the club.
Clearly I meant how not to appeal to people *outside* the club.
Oops!
...
- able to relate to the whole of life as enjoyed (or not) by the majority of people in the UK ...
@ExclamationMark can you name anyone who meets all the tests you lay down? Apart from having hands laid on you by the wrong people, do you even do so?
What do you mean by this? I don't understand
Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought you were a Baptist minister. If so, that puts you as much in the running to be the next Archbishop of York as I am in the running to be the next Pope.
@Jemima the 9th Wow. That must have been quite a carol service or post-carol-service session if you're not sure whether you might have had a beer or not.
A behind close doors appointment for a start, not chosen in open election. Not sure about the toast bit either
That covers but one of the points you made, being the one which deals with the method of appointment rather than the qualities of the new Abp. I agree that the method of "election" of bishops. archbishops in the CoE is best described as time-honoured rather than anything positive.
Yet your original past attacked him for not measuring up what you thought were the qualities necessary, which constituted the major points of your post. I ask again how he fails to meet those qualities.
From what I have seen he is not one to rock the boat (point 6). Surely that's a sign of conformity not an indication of radicalism? (E.g how open is he to sharing his Bishop's Palace lunches with the homeless)?
You made a set of very substantial assertions but have not yet faced up to answering them. Do you know if he has not shared lunches with the homeless or those in straightened circumstances? If you don't, you'd do better to withdraw this.
My bad. The internet is an interesting place. Other than my flawed source, the only other evidence I have that Cottrell supported Jeffrey John is Wikipedia, and I wouldn't trust Wikipedia alone. Does anyone here know if Cottrell supported John?
I heard SC retell that on being told of his selection for Reading, he asked whether Jeffrey John had yet been told. "Then let me call him first", he replied.
@Jemima the 9th Wow. That must have been quite a carol service or post-carol-service session if you're not sure whether you might have had a beer or not.
2 other things, initially I misread your post last night on point 4, (in my defence, your honour, it was post carol service and I may have had a beer...) as that he should have experienced life as most of the U.K. do, which wouldn’t be at all achievable! I think I may have been reacting to that, rather than the idea of relating to most people, but I still stand by my previous post about how doable that actually is.
Also, I think so much of this is about language, and trying to be inclusive. Referring to theological colleges by nicknames such as Staggers is an absolute Grade A example of how not to appeal to people in the club.
We all misread! Not drinking alcohol, I don't experience that form of confusion but grapple with others.
The point I am making is that despite the efforts that have been made, choices are still being sought from a very narrow band of candidates who tend to be nominated by chums.
Yes, language is important but the whole "Staggers" thing is a bit boarding school and past its sell by date don't you think? It doesn't sit well with the kind of conversations I have here which is a UDA.
Absolutely agree on the last point. I’d say it’s more than past its sell by, it's exclusive - though this may not be deliberate on the part of those using the terms. It reminds me very much of hearing Oxbridge graduates talking about matriculation, for example. (AFAICT it means joining the university).
Sorry, what’s a UDA? Googling just gets me the Ulster Defence Association, which I’m reasonably sure isn’t what you meant!
... the one God is pointing to as the selection is made. When we go our own way and ignore God's direction it always goes wrong, until we ask for something good to come out from our errors.
In real terms I'm not sure what that means. Probably a dead horse and certainly predominately another thread, but what is God meant to do apart from moving through whatever processes the processes move through?
While asking God to work through the processes we instigate by our own will, we can be sure that God is working through those processes we instigate by God's will. There is a difference. As you said, it's a tangent here, so here it ends.
How are you sure whether you are following God's will or your own will if the choices you discern don't break the the Great Commandment? If you have two or more honorable paths, how are you sure that you are the one who knows exactly what God has directed? Wait, you are a Roman Catholic, aren't you? Okay your Church has methods it finds adequate to discern such things. But, surely you are aware that there are many devoted Catholics who are convinced that the Roman Catholic Church has been off the rails since Vatican II, and even that Pope Francis is an anti-pope. They know the real mind of God.
When people start being sure that they can discern God's will in detail, be afraid, be very afraid. To me it is safer to assume that human will muddy things but to humbly trust that God's love and power can and will ultimately wash them clean.
I agree that if an individual starts being sure that they can discern God's will in detail, it's time to be wary. But the Church (no, I'm not a Roman Catholic, but I'm including it and every denomination of Christian church here) will have means by which God's will is discerned. God affirms his will to more than one person, in different ways. Much prayer goes into the appointment of bishops and archbishops, in the Churches that have them. In some places, the prayer continues night and day until God's will has been discerned.
It's not about nominating chums behind closed doors, it's about listening to everyone who suggests names, filtering out those who are clearly unsuitable, and listening to God, in prayer.
...
- able to relate to the whole of life as enjoyed (or not) by the majority of people in the UK ...
@ExclamationMark can you name anyone who meets all the tests you lay down? Apart from having hands laid on you by the wrong people, do you even do so?
What do you mean by this? I don't understand
Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought you were a Baptist minister. If so, that puts you as much in the running to be the next Archbishop of York as I am in the running to be the next Pope.
I am not in the running but as someone living in the UK who both directly and indirectly engages with and supports the established church, then I can share my thoughts. I don't need to prove my right to comment.
I do attend a Baptist church but my status there is irrelevant to this discussion: I am a Christian believer who believes we're all ordained. What's the reference to having hands laid on me by the wrong people got to do with it? If that is intended as a comment about denominational standpoints then fair enough - if it's not then why make it personal?
2 other things, initially I misread your post last night on point 4, (in my defence, your honour, it was post carol service and I may have had a beer...) as that he should have experienced life as most of the U.K. do, which wouldn’t be at all achievable! I think I may have been reacting to that, rather than the idea of relating to most people, but I still stand by my previous post about how doable that actually is.
Also, I think so much of this is about language, and trying to be inclusive. Referring to theological colleges by nicknames such as Staggers is an absolute Grade A example of how not to appeal to people in the club.
We all misread! Not drinking alcohol, I don't experience that form of confusion but grapple with others.
The point I am making is that despite the efforts that have been made, choices are still being sought from a very narrow band of candidates who tend to be nominated by chums.
Yes, language is important but the whole "Staggers" thing is a bit boarding school and past its sell by date don't you think? It doesn't sit well with the kind of conversations I have here which is a UDA.
Absolutely agree on the last point. I’d say it’s more than past its sell by, it's exclusive - though this may not be deliberate on the part of those using the terms. It reminds me very much of hearing Oxbridge graduates talking about matriculation, for example. (AFAICT it means joining the university).
Sorry, what’s a UDA? Googling just gets me the Ulster Defence Association, which I’m reasonably sure isn’t what you meant!
Sorry -- UDA is an Urban Deprivation Area - in this case in the bottom 7% of the UK. Seeking to reach all this community which includes a significant refugee stop off point is a zillion miles away from talking about Oxford and theological colleges. The theology here is on the level of food, drink and housing.
I’d say, of that list, he meets points 1,2,3,5 and 7, based on what others have said here, and a little of my own experience (I’m in his present diocese and I’ve heard him speak a few times). So that’s not bad.
What does a wimp from a theological college mean? (Wimp being a term possibly up for discussion in the living with Y chromosomes thread..) I’m not theologically educated, I’m pew fodder, but surely all priests go to theological college?
Surely point 4 is essential in understanding people's lives? Point 6 refers to the voice of the prophet - surely a national leader should have that? Point 8 is a bit tongue in cheek but is a way of relating to ordinariness and mess.
Sorry I didn't express myself clearly …. I was referring to someone who was/is lecturer in a college having chosen that route over parish ministry. They do rather tend to be a bit cloistered after a while.
I would not mind them being cloistered as this would give them a chance to work on their understanding of theology and scripture; in my experience of the academic world, the danger is the perpetual focus on meetings and administration, and the unhealthy aspects of that artificial world. The same would apply to anyone who had spent much time in corporate or other administrative sectors. Cloisters and pilgrimages might be very good places for them to be.
As far as selection goes, I have long advocated to my CoE friends the Barnabas method. Put the names of eligible candidates in a hopper and draw a lot. The Copts still use this for selecting patriarchs.
It's Christmas here under-downunda, and I don't want to tell Santa as he passes to re-route his sleigh away from those who make bad or wake the Baby Jesus
Comments
The point I am making is that despite the efforts that have been made, choices are still being sought from a very narrow band of candidates who tend to be nominated by chums.
Yes, language is important but the whole "Staggers" thing is a bit boarding school and past its sell by date don't you think? It doesn't sit well with the kind of conversations I have here which is a UDA.
Clearly I meant how not to appeal to people *outside* the club.
Oops!
Sorry. Couldn't resist that.
You made a set of very substantial assertions but have not yet faced up to answering them. Do you know if he has not shared lunches with the homeless or those in straightened circumstances? If you don't, you'd do better to withdraw this.
And what Enoch has said.
I heard SC retell that on being told of his selection for Reading, he asked whether Jeffrey John had yet been told. "Then let me call him first", he replied.
I'd call that supportive.
Hahaha! Quite.
Absolutely agree on the last point. I’d say it’s more than past its sell by, it's exclusive - though this may not be deliberate on the part of those using the terms. It reminds me very much of hearing Oxbridge graduates talking about matriculation, for example. (AFAICT it means joining the university).
Sorry, what’s a UDA? Googling just gets me the Ulster Defence Association, which I’m reasonably sure isn’t what you meant!
I agree that if an individual starts being sure that they can discern God's will in detail, it's time to be wary. But the Church (no, I'm not a Roman Catholic, but I'm including it and every denomination of Christian church here) will have means by which God's will is discerned. God affirms his will to more than one person, in different ways. Much prayer goes into the appointment of bishops and archbishops, in the Churches that have them. In some places, the prayer continues night and day until God's will has been discerned.
It's not about nominating chums behind closed doors, it's about listening to everyone who suggests names, filtering out those who are clearly unsuitable, and listening to God, in prayer.
I am not in the running but as someone living in the UK who both directly and indirectly engages with and supports the established church, then I can share my thoughts. I don't need to prove my right to comment.
I do attend a Baptist church but my status there is irrelevant to this discussion: I am a Christian believer who believes we're all ordained. What's the reference to having hands laid on me by the wrong people got to do with it? If that is intended as a comment about denominational standpoints then fair enough - if it's not then why make it personal?
Sorry -- UDA is an Urban Deprivation Area - in this case in the bottom 7% of the UK. Seeking to reach all this community which includes a significant refugee stop off point is a zillion miles away from talking about Oxford and theological colleges. The theology here is on the level of food, drink and housing.
I would not mind them being cloistered as this would give them a chance to work on their understanding of theology and scripture; in my experience of the academic world, the danger is the perpetual focus on meetings and administration, and the unhealthy aspects of that artificial world. The same would apply to anyone who had spent much time in corporate or other administrative sectors. Cloisters and pilgrimages might be very good places for them to be.
As far as selection goes, I have long advocated to my CoE friends the Barnabas method. Put the names of eligible candidates in a hopper and draw a lot. The Copts still use this for selecting patriarchs.
A gentle hostly reminder to place nice
It's Christmas here under-downunda, and I don't want to tell Santa as he passes to re-route his sleigh away from those who make bad or wake the Baby Jesus
/Hosting