Pedantry vs. Humpty-Dumptyism

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  • "England is a class-riven society."

    We've had this discussion several times on the Ship, but not in my experience. However, I accept the fact that others see this country differently.
  • Well, I grew up on a council estate. A lot of things seemed related to class.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Hugal wrote: »
    Classical music is [...] less instant than popular music. You have to listen to it properly. Popular music constantly borrows from classical.

    My understanding is that "classical music" was merely popular music from a different era.

    As for "listening to things properly", if you think there is a lack of nuance to be divined from modern music, then perhaps you're not listening to it properly.

    And, for the mindless consumers among us, it may surprise you to comprehend that all acts of creation borrow from earlier work. Classical music was nothing if not finessed echoes of earlier works, to evoke an emotional conversation with the past. This is true for all works of art, feats of engineering, and even forum posts.

    So it goes.
  • Rook - not even "echoes of earlier works"! Bach, for example, stole from Vivaldi when Vivaldi was still alive. They regarded themselves, and were certainly regarded by others, as craftsmen. If you design and build a very good chair, and people buy it, I might make a similar or samelike chair. No one today would accuse me of theft, just a lack of imagination. We're still suffering the hangover of the Romantic cult of genius (though it stretches back to Michelangelo's producing David from a flawed block, if not further back). Oh, and copyright.

    As regarding whether music is heard through the filter of class, I was fortunate in that in Grade 3 our music teacher started introducing us to short pieces as listening exercises. He was very good, teasing out our responses, etc. And this was at a small public (i.e., state-run) school in a small mining town where most people would be "working class". Perhaps it's for that reason that I find lilBuddha's assertions so unconvincing.
  • In re discussions of classical music, there's a weird eliding of different types of capital -- social, cultural, and financial. That's very American, in my experience. It's also wrong, even in America. I've heard more-or-less well-educated Americans opine that class in the US is all about money (perhaps, but only if money is interpreted broadly and inter-generationally). And my American students were completely bewildered when I tried to explain to them that neither Donald Trump not MBA players could be considered upper-class, whereas even a relatively penniless (but Groton and Yale-educated) member of a prominent New England family could be considered very upper class.

    Is classical music classless? Not at present anywhere in the anglosphere in my experience. It seems less class-bound in Germany, but it's not classless there, either. Any prominent German concert is filled with people cozying up to "Herr Doktor" so-and-so, the president of some major financial institution
  • The definition of classical music that appeals to me is that it is enduring music. Classical music is being written at this moment and will carry on being written, but it will often take time to know it. This is an argument I have at our church all the time, pointing out that trash music has been around for a long time too, and too much of it has found its way into our hymn books. I hold that we are committing a cultural offence by failing to expose our young people to the best of older music, and we do no better by failing expose everyone to the best of modern music.
  • The definition of classical music that appeals to me is that it is enduring music. Classical music is being written at this moment and will carry on being written, but it will often take time to know it. This is an argument I have at our church all the time, pointing out that trash music has been around for a long time too, and too much of it has found its way into our hymn books. I hold that we are committing a cultural offence by failing to expose our young people to the best of older music, and we do no better by failing expose everyone to the best of modern music.

    My problem is that it's so hard to find the best of modern music. There is SOOO much crap out there, one needs a guide. Best would be a guide who can say, "Well if you like them and them and them, then the hip-hop artist you would like best would probably be so-and-so." Lacking that, all hip-hop sounds the same to me and I am quite incapable of plowing my way through what I don't like to find the gems I would.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    My problem is that it's so hard to find the best of modern music. There is SOOO much crap out there, one needs a guide. . . Lacking that, all hip-hop sounds the same to me . . .

    Word. Similar problem for me with various kinds of contemporary music. It would help if some of the artists involved would discover that there are rhythms beyond 4/4 time. Nothing wrong with 4/4 time, mind you, but why not explore

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    . . . er, a few of the others.
  • You are missing out if you can't get into hip-hop.
  • I sometimes like small doses of hip-hop, if it has a happy feel to it. Same with rap.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Suspended
    edited December 2019
    Music is like sport, I think. Some have a very narrow focus and cannot appreciate even slight variations. Others like many things. Fortunately we are not all the same. We don't have to appreciate Touch Rugby and Wheelchair Basketball. But we don't have to belittle others who do.

    The incredible variation in music and sport and arts is part of the joy of life.

  • Blahblah wrote: »
    You are missing out if you can't get into hip-hop.

    No, I really don't think I am.
  • I'm certainly open to new music if performed well, and especially if I can participate, as in church. The thing that I have come to loathe and abhor in recent months is this vile practice of mixing two songs together to form a hybrid. Would anyone do that with two poems? Two plays? Would you (unless you are Peter Schickele and have the wit to get away with that kind of thing) take a couple of symphonies by different composers and mix what you regard as the best bits? Am outraged. Happy Christmas anyway.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Suspended
    edited December 2019
    Of course many hymns were originally poems.

    I can't think of a hymn that was merged from two poems by different writers, but I would be surprised if it had never happened.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Blahblah wrote: »
    I can't think of a hymn that was merged from two poems by different writers, but I would be surprised if it had never happened.
    A Great and Mighty Wonder is sung to the tune of Er ist ein Ros entsprungen and is apparently sometimes sung with verses from the latter interrelated.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Hugal wrote: »
    ...Earlier someone mentioned Bach as classical music. I had to stop the pedant in me say that Bach was not classical. He was Baroque.
    I know. But "classical" is the word that has been taken up for everything from plainchant to John Adams's most recent works. We pedants have to mumble our objections quietly to ourselves.
    The definition of classical music that appeals to me is that it is enduring music. ...I hold that we are committing a cultural offence by failing to expose our young people to the best of older music, and we do no better by failing expose everyone to the best of modern music.
    I agree.
    Blahblah wrote: »
    You are missing out if you can't get into hip-hop.
    Oh, I think not, and I gave it a fair shot.

  • Blahblah wrote: »
    You are missing out if you can't get into hip-hop.

    Idk, I say that about experimental music and people oddly don’t believe me.

  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    ...Earlier someone mentioned Bach as classical music. I had to stop the pedant in me say that Bach was not classical. He was Baroque.
    I know. But "classical" is the word that has been taken up for everything from plainchant to John Adams's most recent works. We pedants have to mumble our objections quietly to ourselves.
    And in our heads, say “with a small c, not a capital C.”

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    ... And my American students were completely bewildered when I tried to explain to them that neither Donald Trump not MBA players could be considered upper-class, ...
    That statement is very, very difficult either to believe or take seriously.

  • Enoch wrote: »
    ... And my American students were completely bewildered when I tried to explain to them that neither Donald Trump not MBA players could be considered upper-class, ...
    That statement is very, very difficult either to believe or take seriously.
    It reflects, it seems to me, a particular view—New England, perhaps?—of class and old money vs new money.

    Groton and Yale don’t necessarily count for too much in these parts.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    ... And my American students were completely bewildered when I tried to explain to them that neither Donald Trump not MBA players could be considered upper-class, ...
    That statement is very, very difficult either to believe or take seriously.
    It reflects, it seems to me, a particular view—New England, perhaps?—of class and old money vs new money.

    Groton and Yale don’t necessarily count for too much in these parts.

    Nor even in those. I grew up in Connecticut and we mostly regarded Yale people as annoying and dangerous pedestrians.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    ... And my American students were completely bewildered when I tried to explain to them that neither Donald Trump not MBA players could be considered upper-class, ...
    That statement is very, very difficult either to believe or take seriously.
    Based on your years of experience and close familiarity with American students?
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    One of the things you miss if you avoid hip-hop: Hamilton, the play by Lin-Manuel Miranda. Utterly fucking brilliant.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    "I" and "me" trip many people up. There was a meme that "I" is usually the right form, especially if you want to sound educated.
    Bad meme.
    As a general rule it's better to sound like you neither know nor care than like you care but don't know. Nine tenths of objectionable usages come from wanting to sound more formal or 'educated' than the context requires.

    In the same vein, I am hearing more and more incorrect usage of "myself". As in, "Myself and my nephew were witness to the horrible car wreck on Alaskan Way two nights ago." I see this so much now and it always makes me grind my teeth. Whatever happened to "My nephew and I were witness to the horrible car wreck...". If I point this out when I see it in print, I almost always get called a "grammar Nazi". God forbid we hold others to correct sentence structure. I suppose people think they sound smarter by speaking this way...to me, they just sound idiotic.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    ...Earlier someone mentioned Bach as classical music. I had to stop the pedant in me say that Bach was not classical. He was Baroque.
    I know. But "classical" is the word that has been taken up for everything from plainchant to John Adams's most recent works. We pedants have to mumble our objections quietly to ourselves.
    And in our heads, say “with a small c, not a capital C.”
    Yes.
    RooK wrote: »
    One of the things you miss if you avoid hip-hop: Hamilton, the play by Lin-Manuel Miranda. Utterly fucking brilliant.
    I don't avoid it. I just don't seek it out generally, and have missed Hamilton due to various things. I'm not avoiding it.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    edited December 2019
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    have missed Hamilton due to various things.

    I strongly recommend giving the original cast audio recording a solid listen. It was forced on me, and I spent the first few songs unable to get over "I don't really like hip-hop" but by the time the Revolution got to Yorktown I was hooked. When the final song of the play finished, I dried my tears and downloaded the materials required to apply for American citizenship.

    It's like that. And hip-hop as fuck.

    ETA: It wasn't until 1.5 years later that I actually got to see the play. Ho. Ly. Shit.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    I've seen enough of Hamilton in TV specials (mostly PBS) to get the general idea. Really good. And IIRC not quite all of the music is hip-hop.

    I liked the original (?) George III. I don't know if there was any reason for Eliza Hamilton (the Mrs.) to be white. In the clips I saw, she was the only white person. Maybe Lin-Manuel Miranda simply thought she was the best actress for the part?

    The one problem with Hamilton is the insane price of the tickets.
    :(
  • Snobbery in other countries is always hard to understand. I once taught "Gatsby" to a class that had no native English speakers, and were mainly German and Austrian. They struggled with the social dynamics; all these people were new money, with no family behind them, so why were there problems?
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Dave W wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    ... And my American students were completely bewildered when I tried to explain to them that neither Donald Trump not MBA players could be considered upper-class, ...
    That statement is very, very difficult either to believe or take seriously.
    Based on your years of experience and close familiarity with American students?
    @Dave W this comment may be more appropriate for the 'different languages' thread, but if there is a place where the ostentatious vulgarian named could be described as 'upper class' the term would have a different meaning there to what it means here.

    I'm afraid I don't really appreciate what 'MBA" and 'Groton' signify. They are terms that don't mean much in the dialect I speak.
  • Ray SunshineRay Sunshine Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    The5thMary wrote: »
    In the same vein, I am hearing more and more incorrect usage of "myself". As in, "Myself and my nephew were witness to the horrible car wreck on Alaskan Way two nights ago." I see this so much now and it always makes me grind my teeth. Whatever happened to "My nephew and I were witness to the horrible car wreck...". If I point this out when I see it in print, I almost always get called a "grammar Nazi". God forbid we hold others to correct sentence structure. I suppose people think they sound smarter by speaking this way...to me, they just sound idiotic.

    Yes, I've noticed that too. I suspect the speakers feel insecure about having to choose between "I" and "me" and hope that "myself" will let them off the hook.
  • The5thMary wrote: »
    In the same vein, I am hearing more and more incorrect usage of "myself". As in, "Myself and my nephew were witness to the horrible car wreck on Alaskan Way two nights ago." I see this so much now and it always makes me grind my teeth. Whatever happened to "My nephew and I were witness to the horrible car wreck...". If I point this out when I see it in print, I almost always get called a "grammar Nazi". God forbid we hold others to correct sentence structure. I suppose people think they sound smarter by speaking this way...to me, they just sound idiotic.

    Yes, I've noticed that too. I suspect the speakers feel insecure about having to choose between "I" and "me" and hope that "myself" will let them off the hook.

    I think it's not that either. It's a desire to add more gravitas which it is deemed I and Me cannot adequately convey.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    Dave W wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    ... And my American students were completely bewildered when I tried to explain to them that neither Donald Trump not MBA players could be considered upper-class, ...
    That statement is very, very difficult either to believe or take seriously.
    Based on your years of experience and close familiarity with American students?
    @Dave W this comment may be more appropriate for the 'different languages' thread, but if there is a place where the ostentatious vulgarian named could be described as 'upper class' the term would have a different meaning there to what it means here.
    Well, no shit! Class structures and signifiers aren’t the same everywhere!
    I'm afraid I don't really appreciate what 'MBA" and 'Groton' signify. They are terms that don't mean much in the dialect I speak.
    “MBA” was probably supposed to be “NBA”, and Groton is a swanky school with the motto “To serve is to rule.”
  • Enoch wrote: »
    I'm afraid I don't really appreciate what 'MBA" and 'Groton' signify. They are terms that don't mean much in the dialect I speak.
    I assumed that MBA (Masters of Business Administration) was a typo for NBA (National Basketball Association).

    Groton is what here is called a “prep school.” Think Eton or the like. Prep schools are much more of a “thing” in New England and the Northeast US than seems to be the case elsewhere in the country. Not that we don’t have them in the South and elsewhere, too, but they don’t seem to be a designator of class in quite the same way as in New England and the Northeast.


    As for “myself” instead of “me” or “I,” I’ve been hearing that for 40+ years—usually in a form like “If you have any questions, speak to Tom or myself.” I think it’s overcorrection, coupled with hearing enough other people do it that you think maybe it’s correct.

  • Yes, sounds like over-correction. However, that construction, speak to Tom or myself, sounds OK to me, maybe emphatic? However, myself in subject position is unusual, although in a coordinate phrase. I must watch out for it. I wonder if English is groping towards an equivalent of moi-meme, as with n-est ce pas, and innit?
  • Standard English only allows for a reflexive pronoun for actions done to the actor - I wash myself, I kick myself, I tell myself not to be pedantic. As a simple direct object only me is admitted. But the colloquial and business use of reflexives for direct objects ("direct that query to myself") has been going on for decades, and appears to be gradually spreading to subjects and regular objects.

    Of course, it's long had wider usage in Irish and possibly Scots English dialects. "Is that yourself, Seamus?". Or Fr Ted shaking after Dougal's practical joke with a statue of Our Lady - "I thought it was ... you know... Herself!"
  • Good points, Karl. This is why language change is fascinating, it is happening now, pedants notwithstanding. For myself, "direct that enquiry to myself", sounds fine. Wot a bubble bath.
  • Yes, sounds like over-correction. However, that construction, speak to Tom or myself, sounds OK to me, maybe emphatic? However, myself in subject position is unusual, although in a coordinate phrase. I must watch out for it.
    Oh, I frequently hear it in the subjective too: “Tom or myself will be glad to answer any questions.”

    The constant in how I hear “myself” (mis)used is the coordinate phrase.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Yes, sounds like over-correction. However, that construction, speak to Tom or myself, sounds OK to me, maybe emphatic? However, myself in subject position is unusual, although in a coordinate phrase. I must watch out for it.
    Oh, I frequently hear it in the subjective too: “Tom or myself will be glad to answer any questions.”

    The constant in how I hear “myself” (mis)used is the coordinate phrase.

    Nice one. I wonder if the "or" helps produce "myself"? (Mutters to ghost of father, I told you linguistics was ace!).
  • FWIW, I hear it with “and” in the subjective too.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    FWIW, I hear it with “and” in the subjective too.

    You are now an official informant, of the linguistics type. Fees are unfortunately very low.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    The most common place where I hear 'myself' used unnecessarily is in restaurants, as in 'And for yourself?' when taking orders. That is technically permissible, just over-formal; and would be unobjectionable if I'd just ordered for my children.
  • Incidentally in- needs prefixing to my direct objects upthread. Blame beer.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Incidentally in- needs prefixing to my direct objects upthread. Blame beer.

    That's what my mother said.
  • I find a construction like "He himself witnessed the theft yet denied the crime," where "himself" is an intensifier, like an "eo ipse" in Latin. Here it emphasises the subject rather than replacing it.
  • OH, sorry for the double post.

    I meant to mention on the topic of rap and hip hop... My local radio morning show some years ago introduced me to K'naan, a Somali Canadian rapper best known for the Coca Cola song (Wavin' Flag) for the 2010 FIFA World Cup. His debut CD, The Dusty Foot Philosopher, is a rather sophisticated piece of work (he uses an oud!).
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The5thMary wrote: »
    In the same vein, I am hearing more and more incorrect usage of "myself". As in, "Myself and my nephew were witness to the horrible car wreck on Alaskan Way two nights ago." I see this so much now and it always makes me grind my teeth. Whatever happened to "My nephew and I were witness to the horrible car wreck...". If I point this out when I see it in print, I almost always get called a "grammar Nazi". God forbid we hold others to correct sentence structure. I suppose people think they sound smarter by speaking this way...to me, they just sound idiotic.

    Yes, I've noticed that too. I suspect the speakers feel insecure about having to choose between "I" and "me" and hope that "myself" will let them off the hook.

    I think it's not that either. It's a desire to add more gravitas which it is deemed I and Me cannot adequately convey.
    Ugh. The word "Myself," used in that context, always makes me shudder.

  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The5thMary wrote: »
    In the same vein, I am hearing more and more incorrect usage of "myself". As in, "Myself and my nephew were witness to the horrible car wreck on Alaskan Way two nights ago." I see this so much now and it always makes me grind my teeth. Whatever happened to "My nephew and I were witness to the horrible car wreck...". If I point this out when I see it in print, I almost always get called a "grammar Nazi". God forbid we hold others to correct sentence structure. I suppose people think they sound smarter by speaking this way...to me, they just sound idiotic.

    Yes, I've noticed that too. I suspect the speakers feel insecure about having to choose between "I" and "me" and hope that "myself" will let them off the hook.

    I think it's not that either. It's a desire to add more gravitas which it is deemed I and Me cannot adequately convey.
    Ugh. The word "Myself," used in that context, always makes me shudder.

    It does me too, but it's not actually a surprising development. English lacks a series of reinforcing or emphatic pronouns - although in northern England we use phrases like "I love sausages, me", but that's not found in the South. French can use "moi, je...".

    English has a long history, derived from the Norman Invasion and its effects on the language, of seeing polysyllabic options as more formal and having greater gravitas. Hence we speak of having a choice of drinks, but a restaurant menu may tend to refer to a selection of beverages. In a piece of spoken or written language full of flowery language the short, Anglo-Saxon pronouns I and Me appear to some, I think, as too familiar and informal. The reflexives provide a two syllable alternative. I suspect another element is the business, and therefore formal, formulations 'our good selves' and so on.

    I don't use them myself in that way as they grate and current usage clearly still allows the simple pronouns.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    FWIW, I hear it with “and” in the subjective too.

    You are now an official informant, of the linguistics type. Fees are unfortunately very low.
    Ah, but the honor!

    KarlLB wrote: »
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The5thMary wrote: »
    In the same vein, I am hearing more and more incorrect usage of "myself". As in, "Myself and my nephew were witness to the horrible car wreck on Alaskan Way two nights ago." I see this so much now and it always makes me grind my teeth. Whatever happened to "My nephew and I were witness to the horrible car wreck...". If I point this out when I see it in print, I almost always get called a "grammar Nazi". God forbid we hold others to correct sentence structure. I suppose people think they sound smarter by speaking this way...to me, they just sound idiotic.

    Yes, I've noticed that too. I suspect the speakers feel insecure about having to choose between "I" and "me" and hope that "myself" will let them off the hook.

    I think it's not that either. It's a desire to add more gravitas which it is deemed I and Me cannot adequately convey.
    Ugh. The word "Myself," used in that context, always makes me shudder.

    It does me too, but it's not actually a surprising development. English lacks a series of reinforcing or emphatic pronouns - although in northern England we use phrases like "I love sausages, me", but that's not found in the South. French can use "moi, je...".
    I hear a similar usage around here: “She doesn’t like sausages, but me, I love them.”

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    That said, "Tom and myself" may be a notch up the scale from the "Me and Tom went to the movies" usage which (for some mysterious reason) infected boatloads of student narratives in the term just closed. I'm going to drop narratives from my spring term syllabus. Do these folks actually need practice writing informal essays when half of them can't produce complete sentences or develop coherent explanations?
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