Which gives your minister a wonderful, once-a-year, opportunity to carefully present them with the truth of the Incarnation.
An opportunity not by any means to be despised, or rejected.
(This may, in all fairness, lead to the question as to why they don't come to any other service!)
Perhaps he or she should be telling them that if they thing they're going to avoid the flames of hell by turning up once a year and singing a few carols, they need to think again. Tell them perhaps that if they wish to spend eternity seated among those robed in white and rejoicing in the joys at looking down upon the torments of those sentenced to everlasting damnation, turning up at least twice every Sunday of the year will be hardly enough!
Keep the lights on. The midnight 'candlelight' service is not a good idea because this is the worship time that attracts a lot of people into their only service of the year. It doesn't seem apt that their only experience of 'doing church' is divergent, unusual twinkle.
Very very much disagree. It was a midnight candle service that gave me my first taste of the numinous, and set me rolling on the path that led me to become a Christian.
Some of us do (well, almost). We had at least 20 burning this morning, plus votive lights lit by peeps before/after service, but I'm sure any Orthodox church would beat us hollow!
From a realistic point of view, unless your church is a mediaeval fane with no other means of lighting, your suggestion is hardly practical - but you knew that.
Which gives your minister a wonderful, once-a-year, opportunity to carefully present them with the truth of the Incarnation.
An opportunity not by any means to be despised, or rejected.
(This may, in all fairness, lead to the question as to why they don't come to any other service!)
Perhaps he or she should be telling them that if they thing they're going to avoid the flames of hell by turning up once a year and singing a few carols, they need to think again. Tell them perhaps that if they wish to spend eternity seated among those robed in white and rejoicing in the joys at looking down upon the torments of those sentenced to everlasting damnation, turning up at least twice every Sunday of the year will be hardly enough!
If that happens, you can be certain that they won't turn up for another year, if at all!
We don't normally run on quite such high candlepower as this morning, but what with it being The Baptism Of The Lord (in the C of E - no, not into the C of E....), and what with 3 baptisms (one baby, and 2 young adults), Father thought we ought to make it a special occasion by setting fire to as much as possible...
There's no better way to ruin something that's special than to make it ordinary.
This. And of course, a large part of what makes it special is that it’s Christmas, nighttime and the darkest time of the year. On a bright Sunday morning in 100° F August, it might not seem as special.
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
This. And of course, a large part of what makes it special is that it’s Christmas, nighttime and the darkest time of the year. On a bright Sunday morning in 100° F August, it might not seem as special.
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
Or for that matter, no one is preventing your having them at every service. But many of us like to make the Christmas services special, and this is one way of doing so.
Of course, Christmas here is in the heat of summer, so even at the midnight service it's usually still warm, with doors and windows wide open, various moths and insects around etc.
Bishop's Finger - very common here to start the service at 11 pm, so that while still allowing a reasonably early finish, communion takes place after midnight.
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
I need a "splutter" emoticon.
Not for scented ones, I agree. But candles in church have a very long history. How else were the catacombs lit? And how better to signify that Christ is Light? When one candle is lit from another, the flame of the first is not diminished: that's a symbol of sharing in love.
I think I’ve rarely been in a church service where there weren’t at least one or two candles lit, often more, so I’m guessing not many places have gotten your No-Place-for-Candles memo.
This looks like our "Mystery Worshipper" writ large - looks fascinating! Looking at the blurb, one might perhaps be concerned at the comment "Today people expect “mystagogy” rather than routine performances", as this has to then ask the question, "Should worshippers act as consumers; and, if they do, should churches be consciously pandering to their demands?"
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
That certainly seems to be the historical, if fading, view here. Certainly some of the visiting worship leaders look at the Advent candles like they might explode, or possibly start genuflecting and reciting Hail Marys when their back is turned.
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
That certainly seems to be the historical, if fading, view here. Certainly some of the visiting worship leaders look at the Advent candles like they might explode, or possibly start genuflecting and reciting Hail Marys when their back is turned.
We have Advent candles. We have always had Advent candles. The main danger isn't an outbreak of Popery but someone deciding they needed to be moved, then asking me to do it. I didn't realise it was in several bits until I picked it up ...
Thank you God for giving me the presence of mind not to utter the words that first sprang to mind as I watched in horror as various bits of the display bounced across the church.
We don't do postmortems as such. Rev T uses the form he had a college for giving feedback when various members of the congregation lead worship or preach. But immediately after the service he always says something really positive and leaves it at that.
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
That certainly seems to be the historical, if fading, view here. Certainly some of the visiting worship leaders look at the Advent candles like they might explode, or possibly start genuflecting and reciting Hail Marys when their back is turned.
My experience in URCs is that the reasons for an aversion to candles has far more to do with a perceived fire risk than anything theological. Sometimes it may even the bother of taking the precautions that those who perceive the risk demand.
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
This is perhaps regional. I think I could count on one hand the American Presbyterian or Reformed churches I have worshipped in that did not have candles—usually one largish one on a stand* or two on the Table, but sometimes more. They are considered quite normal, and in my experience have been common for pretty much all of my almost 6 decades. It’s the absence of them that might seem notable—and perhaps signal adherence to a very conservative strain of Presbyterianism.
In my experience, two candles on the Communion Table is also very common in Southern Baptist churches in these parts.
* In some instances, this is a true paschal candle; in others, it might be similar to a paschal candle, but without the inscriptions, etc. In others (like our place), the candle is shorter (maybe a foot tall) and wider than a typical paschal candle. Baptismal candles are lit from it.
I grew up in an area where there were a few Anglican churches that did not use candles. It was mainly a High Church neighbourhood, so the few Low/Evangelical shacks tended to be fairly forthright about it, and that included having no candles on the Communion Table. The few out and out Anglo-Catholic places were equally vehement about their churchmanship in the opposite manner.
Or (between my experience and yours) a Pond Difference.
Indeed. I was including Pond Differences in regional differences.
I have never known British Baptists to use baptismal candles.
Nor have I known Baptists here to use them.
Many Presbyterian churches here use them, though. They are lit and given with the suggestion that they be re-lit each year on the anniversary of the baptism. This is aimed primarily at those baptized as infants (which constitute the majority of our baptisms), as a way of helping children be aware of their baptism, but we give them to adults as well.
Our children's baptismal candles were kept on the dressers in their bedrooms, where they could be seen daily. But on the anniversaries of their baptisms, we placed his or her candle on the supper table next to a bowl of water, where it stayed lit throughout the meal. Baptism and their baptismal day were the focus of some, though not all, of the suppertime conversation.
The Church Of My Yoof (so low C of E that we were somewhere below the foundations, never mind the floorboards) did not even have a CROSS on display in the building, let alone candles!
O Popery! O Popery!
I can't recall any post-service PMs, as the Vicar did everything by the Book (1662 BCP), and nobody dared diverge from that Sacred Book.
If they did so dare, whether leading worship, or preaching, they would be instantly visited by the Vicar, and his Warden, and shown The Error Of Their Ways.
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
Which is, in fact, stupid, in my not so humble opinion. Fear is no way to run a church, even fear of looking like the Catholics.
I leave aside the irony of people not wanting candles because it's papist, but swallowing so many of the ideas of the Catholic Church (original sin, forensic model of atonement, etc.) with line, sinker, and hook attached.
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
A church is no place for candles.
[/quote]
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
My favourite service of the church year is all about the Candle (Paschal). There is something particularly wonderful about the light coming into the darkness that stirs the soul and adds to the triumphant nature of the Vigil.
As St Quacks is definitely A-C, we have rather a lot of candles to light during the Gloria, but I can understand why the love of them expressed at our end of the spectrum might make some places run a mile from the chandlers.
The usual #1 Post Mortem topic at St Oddballs' used to be the offertory. The organist plays at another church in the morning, and there they key the "dog's holiday" off the ushers rather than what the minister is doing. I have largely accepted defeat on that one, and now prepare the elements before the service.
The #2 PM point is the end of Communion where he tends to noodle too long evidently expecting me to do the ablutions at that point. I am old, old school and simply put the elements back on the Table and cover with a linen cloth; I'll get the washing up at the end of the service, which is why the final hymn is almost always something that is 8.7.8.7.D or D.C.M. - the eight line play over is usually enough for me to reverently consume and flush out the chalice.
We have to PM those two as regularly as clockwork every three months. Otherwise nothing much ever seems to go wrong that is not down to my lousy proof reading skills - which is why I stick to the BCP!
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
A church is no place for candles.
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
[/quote]
Like it! If youre gonna do candles, do it seriously and with style.
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
A church is no place for candles.
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
Like it! If youre gonna do candles, do it seriously and with style.
Wait, I thought candles have no place in a church?
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
A church is no place for candles.
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
Like it! If youre gonna do candles, do it seriously and with style.
Wait, I thought candles have no place in a church?
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
A church is no place for candles.
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
Like it! If youre gonna do candles, do it seriously and with style.
Wait, I thought candles have no place in a church?
Sometimes you can be too cartesian.
Oh, so we shouldn’t assume you actually mean what you say. Helpful to know.
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
A church is no place for candles.
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
Like it! If youre gonna do candles, do it seriously and with style.
Wait, I thought candles have no place in a church?
Sometimes you can be too cartesian.
Oh, so we shouldn’t assume you actually mean what you say. Helpful to know.
Helps to determine who it's pointless to talk with.
"dog's holiday" = doxology (also sometimes “ducks’ holiday”)
Normally the elements are made ready for communion during the offertory hymn. If the hymn is shorter than needed then the organist fills in until everything is ready, often finishing with something like a musical doxology. Some organists take their cue from what they can see of the person preparing. Others take their cue from when the ushers (= C of E sidesmen) go back down the aisle after presenting the collection.
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
Which is, in fact, stupid, in my not so humble opinion. Fear is no way to run a church, even fear of looking like the Catholics.
I leave aside the irony of people not wanting candles because it's papist, but swallowing so many of the ideas of the Catholic Church (original sin, forensic model of atonement, etc.) with line, sinker, and hook attached.
.
It's less fear and more about a maintaining identity. Non-conformists don't do the things that Anglicans or Catholics do. Which includes candles, using certain types of imagery or allowing the choir to sing stuff in Latin. We do our own thing. And our own thing is Preaching.
Sometimes the maintaining our identify thing can come with a nasty side order of anti-Catholic or Anglican sentiment. But not always, sometimes it's just about about maintaining those points of difference that make us Baptists. [It's really hard to explain]
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
Which is, in fact, stupid, in my not so humble opinion. Fear is no way to run a church, even fear of looking like the Catholics.
I leave aside the irony of people not wanting candles because it's papist, but swallowing so many of the ideas of the Catholic Church (original sin, forensic model of atonement, etc.) with line, sinker, and hook attached.
.
It's less fear and more about a maintaining identity. Non-conformists don't do the things that Anglicans or Catholics do. Which includes candles, using certain types of imagery or allowing the choir to sing stuff in Latin. We do our own thing. And our own thing is Preaching.
Sometimes the maintaining our identify thing can come with a nasty side order of anti-Catholic or Anglican sentiment. But not always, sometimes it's just about about maintaining those points of difference that make us Baptists. [It's really hard to explain]
1. There are many things that lots of churches "don't do" in order to maintain their identity. So - for instance - many Anglican churches don't do praise bands and worship songs because they don't want to be confused with the happy-clappy Charismatics. Or Reformed churches which don't do emotion because they're not Pentecostals. We all have our traditions to maintain. However ...
2. At the evangelical end of things, the boundaries are being increasingly blurred as I think there are some Anglican churches which behave (not just in worship) very like many Baptist or Independent churches. (Interestingly back in the late 1950s/early 1960s things were going the other way as there was a strong liturgical movement among Baptists). I think this reflects the fact that many Christian sit loose to denominational links; what they are more concerned about is worship style or theological position.
"dog's holiday" = doxology (also sometimes “ducks’ holiday”)
Normally the elements are made ready for communion during the offertory hymn. If the hymn is shorter than needed then the organist fills in until everything is ready, often finishing with something like a musical doxology. Some organists take their cue from what they can see of the person preparing. Others take their cue from when the ushers (= C of E sidesmen) go back down the aisle after presenting the collection.
I probably do not help matters by being one of those annoying clergy who actually read the rubrics, and as far as I can work it out the 1928 sequence for the offertory, which is the same as 1662 is:
1. Sentence(s) of Scripture, usually before, but theoretically during the collection.
2. Presentation of alms - at which point the doxology is sung
3. The elements are either brought to the altar or prepared depending on local custom.
4. Objects of intercession are announced before launching into the Prayer for the Church.
What often happens is that the elements are prepared at the Table and presented whilst the collection is taken, then the alms. There is a little studied ambiguity in the 1979 BCP as to the precise order things are done, probably because no-one was following the old rubrics in the first place.
I have dropped into the habit of preparing the elements before the service, as I usually know to within 3 or 4 the likely number of communicants - especially in the morning. The breadbox and the cruets are handy if we do have a last minute influx of visitors, but it is rare that I have to adjust the amount of bread. I can deal with small variations in attendance by breaking the large wafer into additional pieces. In the past I used only large wafers and would break them into four or six, which I found more convenient with a somewhat erratic attendance, and also preserves the symbolism of the broken bread.
"dog's holiday" = doxology (also sometimes “ducks’ holiday”)
Normally the elements are made ready for communion during the offertory hymn. If the hymn is shorter than needed then the organist fills in until everything is ready, often finishing with something like a musical doxology. Some organists take their cue from what they can see of the person preparing. Others take their cue from when the ushers (= C of E sidesmen) go back down the aisle after presenting the collection.
I belong to a United Church of Canada, which has Presbyterian/Methodist/Congregationalist roots. Our organizing structure is one of teams (which don't necessarily need to meet monthly, depending on their function), but the worship team does. It comprises reps from the music end, the youth end, the tech team (which prepares and displays the worship slides, and manages sound technology), the minister, the decorating group, and a couple of congregation members who provide feedback but are mainly there for the free lunch and a nap in the Oak Room. Sometimes the lay reader organizer (me) attends as well (I have a couple of less-competent readers; I just don't schedule them for important Sundays/services). So every meeting is two fold: a look back at recent services to ascertain what's going well, what's not going so well; and a look at future services, themes, etc.
That sounds as if it might be quite a large group, whereas, as enny fule kno, the best committee consists of two people, one of whom is permanently absent!
Seriously, though, I presume it works, otherwise you wouldn't do it, but we would find it rather top-heavy, IYSWIM.
The only time I've encountered a post mortem was my first Sunday in a new parish about fifteen years ago. A very hotline-to-God person grabbed me by the elbow and started steering me to what looked as if it was about to be a meeting. To. Discuss. The. Service.
WTF?
The liturgy was delivered in praise to God. The readers read. If they didn't read well a meeting wasn't needed to discuss it. The sermon was prought. If it was or wasn't prought well a meeting wasn't needed to attempt to mold all future sermons to the will of the hotline-to-God person and her self-appointed friends. The creed was proclaimed. The intercessions were offered (see readings above). The organist played. See above on readers. Thanksgiving was offered and elements of the encounter with God were served and received. See above. God's people went out into God's world - and had better missiological things to do than be controlled by a neurotic and her friends who for too long had sought to turn the liturgy in to a me-and-my-boyfriend-Jesus love fest.
dog's holiday = doxology but what exactly is a doxology.Perhaps wrongly I thought it was the form of the' glory be to the Father etc. why is it sung at the time mentioned -at the presentation of the gifts,if I have understood correctly ?
In the usage of many of us (including, in my experience, lower and middle of the candle Episcopalians), "doxology" in general does mean exactly that. But when the usage is the Doxology—let the listener hear the Capital C —it means this text or some variation of it:
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts.
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Traditionally, this text is sung at the presentation of the offering/gifts, and is sung to Old Hundredth, though other tunes might be used—a standard alternative being Lasst Uns Erfreuen (the tune for "All Creatures of our God and King"), which requires the addition of some Alleluias.
Comments
Very very much disagree. It was a midnight candle service that gave me my first taste of the numinous, and set me rolling on the path that led me to become a Christian.
Then illuminate every service with candles.
From a realistic point of view, unless your church is a mediaeval fane with no other means of lighting, your suggestion is hardly practical - but you knew that.
If that happens, you can be certain that they won't turn up for another year, if at all!
We don't normally run on quite such high candlepower as this morning, but what with it being The Baptism Of The Lord (in the C of E - no, not into the C of E....), and what with 3 baptisms (one baby, and 2 young adults), Father thought we ought to make it a special occasion by setting fire to as much as possible...
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
Or for that matter, no one is preventing your having them at every service. But many of us like to make the Christmas services special, and this is one way of doing so.
Of course, Christmas here is in the heat of summer, so even at the midnight service it's usually still warm, with doors and windows wide open, various moths and insects around etc.
Bishop's Finger - very common here to start the service at 11 pm, so that while still allowing a reasonably early finish, communion takes place after midnight.
@PhilipV, no one is forcing you or your church to have candlelight services on Christmas Eve. But if other places do have them, do them well and value them, why is that a problem for you?
[/quote]
A church is no place for candles.
Not for scented ones, I agree. But candles in church have a very long history. How else were the catacombs lit? And how better to signify that Christ is Light? When one candle is lit from another, the flame of the first is not diminished: that's a symbol of sharing in love.
Why in the world not?
I think I’ve rarely been in a church service where there weren’t at least one or two candles lit, often more, so I’m guessing not many places have gotten your No-Place-for-Candles memo.
I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
https://amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1532673019/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
That certainly seems to be the historical, if fading, view here. Certainly some of the visiting worship leaders look at the Advent candles like they might explode, or possibly start genuflecting and reciting Hail Marys when their back is turned.
Perhaps, @PhilipV , you'd like to tell us what you think should be placed in a church?
Possibly a separate thread might be called for, rather than derailing this one!
We have Advent candles. We have always had Advent candles. The main danger isn't an outbreak of Popery but someone deciding they needed to be moved, then asking me to do it. I didn't realise it was in several bits until I picked it up ...
Thank you God for giving me the presence of mind not to utter the words that first sprang to mind as I watched in horror as various bits of the display bounced across the church.
We don't do postmortems as such. Rev T uses the form he had a college for giving feedback when various members of the congregation lead worship or preach. But immediately after the service he always says something really positive and leaves it at that.
My experience in URCs is that the reasons for an aversion to candles has far more to do with a perceived fire risk than anything theological. Sometimes it may even the bother of taking the precautions that those who perceive the risk demand.
In my experience, two candles on the Communion Table is also very common in Southern Baptist churches in these parts.
* In some instances, this is a true paschal candle; in others, it might be similar to a paschal candle, but without the inscriptions, etc. In others (like our place), the candle is shorter (maybe a foot tall) and wider than a typical paschal candle. Baptismal candles are lit from it.
I have never known British Baptists to use baptismal candles.
Nor have I known Baptists here to use them.
Many Presbyterian churches here use them, though. They are lit and given with the suggestion that they be re-lit each year on the anniversary of the baptism. This is aimed primarily at those baptized as infants (which constitute the majority of our baptisms), as a way of helping children be aware of their baptism, but we give them to adults as well.
Our children's baptismal candles were kept on the dressers in their bedrooms, where they could be seen daily. But on the anniversaries of their baptisms, we placed his or her candle on the supper table next to a bowl of water, where it stayed lit throughout the meal. Baptism and their baptismal day were the focus of some, though not all, of the suppertime conversation.
O Popery! O Popery!
I can't recall any post-service PMs, as the Vicar did everything by the Book (1662 BCP), and nobody dared diverge from that Sacred Book.
If they did so dare, whether leading worship, or preaching, they would be instantly visited by the Vicar, and his Warden, and shown The Error Of Their Ways.
Which is, in fact, stupid, in my not so humble opinion. Fear is no way to run a church, even fear of looking like the Catholics.
I leave aside the irony of people not wanting candles because it's papist, but swallowing so many of the ideas of the Catholic Church (original sin, forensic model of atonement, etc.) with line, sinker, and hook attached.
.
A church is no place for candles.
[/quote]
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
As St Quacks is definitely A-C, we have rather a lot of candles to light during the Gloria, but I can understand why the love of them expressed at our end of the spectrum might make some places run a mile from the chandlers.
The #2 PM point is the end of Communion where he tends to noodle too long evidently expecting me to do the ablutions at that point. I am old, old school and simply put the elements back on the Table and cover with a linen cloth; I'll get the washing up at the end of the service, which is why the final hymn is almost always something that is 8.7.8.7.D or D.C.M. - the eight line play over is usually enough for me to reverently consume and flush out the chalice.
We have to PM those two as regularly as clockwork every three months. Otherwise nothing much ever seems to go wrong that is not down to my lousy proof reading skills - which is why I stick to the BCP!
Huh. Should let my cathedral know. We have eight on the high altar alone, never mind votives. And on Christmas and Easter we roll out 8 candelabra that go in the aisle. Also, our propensity for candles is one of the reasons we celebrate Candelmas, where all of the candles are blessed.
[/quote]
Like it! If youre gonna do candles, do it seriously and with style.
Sometimes you can be too cartesian.
Helps to determine who it's pointless to talk with.
Noted. Eppur si stulte.
(it's still stupid, in really bad Latin)
Normally the elements are made ready for communion during the offertory hymn. If the hymn is shorter than needed then the organist fills in until everything is ready, often finishing with something like a musical doxology. Some organists take their cue from what they can see of the person preparing. Others take their cue from when the ushers (= C of E sidesmen) go back down the aisle after presenting the collection.
It's less fear and more about a maintaining identity. Non-conformists don't do the things that Anglicans or Catholics do. Which includes candles, using certain types of imagery or allowing the choir to sing stuff in Latin. We do our own thing. And our own thing is Preaching.
Sometimes the maintaining our identify thing can come with a nasty side order of anti-Catholic or Anglican sentiment. But not always, sometimes it's just about about maintaining those points of difference that make us Baptists. [It's really hard to explain]
I get that.
1. There are many things that lots of churches "don't do" in order to maintain their identity. So - for instance - many Anglican churches don't do praise bands and worship songs because they don't want to be confused with the happy-clappy Charismatics. Or Reformed churches which don't do emotion because they're not Pentecostals. We all have our traditions to maintain. However ...
2. At the evangelical end of things, the boundaries are being increasingly blurred as I think there are some Anglican churches which behave (not just in worship) very like many Baptist or Independent churches. (Interestingly back in the late 1950s/early 1960s things were going the other way as there was a strong liturgical movement among Baptists). I think this reflects the fact that many Christian sit loose to denominational links; what they are more concerned about is worship style or theological position.
I probably do not help matters by being one of those annoying clergy who actually read the rubrics, and as far as I can work it out the 1928 sequence for the offertory, which is the same as 1662 is:
1. Sentence(s) of Scripture, usually before, but theoretically during the collection.
2. Presentation of alms - at which point the doxology is sung
3. The elements are either brought to the altar or prepared depending on local custom.
4. Objects of intercession are announced before launching into the Prayer for the Church.
What often happens is that the elements are prepared at the Table and presented whilst the collection is taken, then the alms. There is a little studied ambiguity in the 1979 BCP as to the precise order things are done, probably because no-one was following the old rubrics in the first place.
I have dropped into the habit of preparing the elements before the service, as I usually know to within 3 or 4 the likely number of communicants - especially in the morning. The breadbox and the cruets are handy if we do have a last minute influx of visitors, but it is rare that I have to adjust the amount of bread. I can deal with small variations in attendance by breaking the large wafer into additional pieces. In the past I used only large wafers and would break them into four or six, which I found more convenient with a somewhat erratic attendance, and also preserves the symbolism of the broken bread.
Seriously, though, I presume it works, otherwise you wouldn't do it, but we would find it rather top-heavy, IYSWIM.
That's not a criticism - just an observation!
WTF?
The liturgy was delivered in praise to God. The readers read. If they didn't read well a meeting wasn't needed to discuss it. The sermon was prought. If it was or wasn't prought well a meeting wasn't needed to attempt to mold all future sermons to the will of the hotline-to-God person and her self-appointed friends. The creed was proclaimed. The intercessions were offered (see readings above). The organist played. See above on readers. Thanksgiving was offered and elements of the encounter with God were served and received. See above. God's people went out into God's world - and had better missiological things to do than be controlled by a neurotic and her friends who for too long had sought to turn the liturgy in to a me-and-my-boyfriend-Jesus love fest.
The woman soon left and started her own church.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts.
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Traditionally, this text is sung at the presentation of the offering/gifts, and is sung to Old Hundredth, though other tunes might be used—a standard alternative being Lasst Uns Erfreuen (the tune for "All Creatures of our God and King"), which requires the addition of some Alleluias.