I have been on the Ship since 2001. I have rarely seen anything this stupid posted.
We are an ecumenical Baptist church. We have one candle, on the Communion Table. The vast majority of Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Reformed and Charismatic churches would have none (except at Christmas). Some might still consider their presence a dangerous sign of incipient Popery.
Which is, in fact, stupid, in my not so humble opinion. Fear is no way to run a church, even fear of looking like the Catholics.
I leave aside the irony of people not wanting candles because it's papist, but swallowing so many of the ideas of the Catholic Church (original sin, forensic model of atonement, etc.) with line, sinker, and hook attached.
.
It's less fear and more about a maintaining identity. Non-conformists don't do the things that Anglicans or Catholics do. Which includes candles, using certain types of imagery or allowing the choir to sing stuff in Latin. We do our own thing. And our own thing is Preaching.
Sometimes the maintaining our identify thing can come with a nasty side order of anti-Catholic or Anglican sentiment. But not always, sometimes it's just about about maintaining those points of difference that make us Baptists. [It's really hard to explain]
Seen from that angle it makes a good deal of sense.
Doxology usually means any short hymn of praise to God. The name comes from the Greek words for ‘glory’ and for ‘sayings’. Different versions are more current in different traditions.
In PDR’s setting there is an offertory hymn at the presentation of the gifts which concludes with (I’m guessing) an instrumental doxology on the organ. If the hymn is not long enough the organist fills in with other musical ‘twiddling’ bringing it to a close at the right time™ with the flourish of a musical doxology.
In the usage of many of us (including, in my experience, lower and middle of the candle Episcopalians), "doxology" in general does mean exactly that. But when the usage is the Doxology—let the listener hear the Capital C —it means this text or some variation of it:
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts.
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Traditionally, this text is sung at the presentation of the offering/gifts, and is sung to Old Hundredth, though other tunes might be used—a standard alternative being Lasst Uns Erfreuen (the tune for "All Creatures of our God and King"), which requires the addition of some Alleluias.
I've seen it sung at the end of a dramatic organ improvisation with a squadron of dark-suited business executives (serving as sidesmen/ushers) marching altarward with almsbasins overflowing with cash. Affluent, large suburban parish in the USA. Stirring and sickening all at once! (The Doxology is not what's sickening...the overhype of the presentation of the cash is.)
Doxology usually means any short hymn of praise to God. The name comes from the Greek words for ‘glory’ and for ‘sayings’. Different versions are more current in different traditions.
In PDR’s setting there is an offertory hymn at the presentation of the gifts which concludes with (I’m guessing) an instrumental doxology on the organ. If the hymn is not long enough the organist fills in with other musical ‘twiddling’ bringing it to a close at the right time™ with the flourish of a musical doxology.
No offertory hymn, usually, over here. What one usually happens is instrumental noodling whilst the sidemen shake down the congregation. The doxology starts, as far as I can tell, the minute they disappear from the organist's sight under the front of the gallery.
1. There are many things that lots of churches "don't do" in order to maintain their identity. So - for instance - many Anglican churches don't do praise bands and worship songs because they don't want to be confused with the happy-clappy Charismatics. Or Reformed churches which don't do emotion because they're not Pentecostals. We all have our traditions to maintain. However ...
2. At the evangelical end of things, the boundaries are being increasingly blurred as I think there are some Anglican churches which behave (not just in worship) very like many Baptist or Independent churches. (Interestingly back in the late 1950s/early 1960s things were going the other way as there was a strong liturgical movement among Baptists). I think this reflects the fact that many Christian sit loose to denominational links; what they are more concerned about is worship style or theological position.
Very true and it comes up in all sorts of ways. Usually someone discovers that despite worshiping somewhere for years, they can't do x or y because they haven't gone through the appropriate due process for baptism or membership etc. It used to cause upset, but the main response now is incomprehension that this is an issue. Because we're all Christians surely?!
Doxology usually means any short hymn of praise to God. The name comes from the Greek words for ‘glory’ and for ‘sayings’. Different versions are more current in different traditions.
In PDR’s setting there is an offertory hymn at the presentation of the gifts which concludes with (I’m guessing) an instrumental doxology on the organ. If the hymn is not long enough the organist fills in with other musical ‘twiddling’ bringing it to a close at the right time™ with the flourish of a musical doxology.
No offertory hymn, usually, over here. What one usually happens is instrumental noodling whilst the sidemen shake down the congregation. The doxology starts, as far as I can tell, the minute they disappear from the organist's sight under the front of the gallery.
And my experience in churches of various Reformation-related traditions over here is that, if there’s a choir (which there usually is except in some smaller churches), the choir sings an anthem during the, um, shake-down. Then the organist noodles into Old Hundredth, all in the congregation recognize that tune as their cue to be upstanding, and then the singing by all commences.
The Dog's Holiday (or whatever) is not, I think, commonly found in the C of E on this side of the Pond.
We have a long-ish hymn at the Offertory, whilst the elements are brought up, the altar prepared, and everything (and everybody) in sight duly censed.
Should the hymn not be quite long enough, one of our organists 'tweedles' (I think that's the correct term - 'noodling' is clearly an Americanism) a variation or several on the hymn tune. The other organist tends not to do that, so the censing is done in silence. I really must get hold of an Orthodox thurible with Bells...
Meanwhile, during the hymn, the collection has been taken up, and the basket placed reverently on a side altar, ready for the Treasurer to pick up after the service. No Elevation Of The Money here!!
The regular Sunday congregation is small enough for all this to be done without undue haste, so that everyone is ready for the start of the Eucharistic Prayer.
In ours (RC) we sing during the collection and I continue to noodle until the kids return from their kiddie church to bring everything up in a big procession. Then the kids do a show and tell of what they were doing then I continue to noodle during the offertory prayers until just before the Preface. That used to give me a satisfyingly long time to show to everyones satisfaction that my noodling skills are severely limited.
But now we have a deacon who gets all the bits and bobs ready on the altar and fills the chalices etc while the kids are showing and telling and promising not to kick their little sister etc, so the priest is straight into the offertory prayers and my noodling time has been slashed!
Can I ask if there is a bit of confusion here as to the meaning of the word "offertory"? I first encountered this in a Presbyterian church some years ago.
In my tradition and that of many others, the word "offertory" refers to the passing round of the collection bags (or whatever) and taking them to the front to be dedicated.
However am I right that in more sacramental traditions we're actually talking about presenting before God the elements which are to be used in the Eucharist?
In hymn terms, a doxology is a last verse that echos/ mimics the Gloria Patri: for example, at the end of Christ is made the sure foundation the doxolody verse is Laud and honour to the Father
Laud and honour to the Son
Laud and honour to the Spirit
Ever three and ever one.
Consubstantial, co-eternal
While unending ages run. Amen.
N.B. A doxology verse should always be finished off with an Amen.
Thanks, all of you who posted about the need for analyzing "what went wrong", without hurting anyone's feelings, or ignoring BCP instructions. A very interesting read is the Customary on the website of Church of the Advent, Boston. I assume it is still in print. No sloppy stuff allowed. Surely there is a middle ground which satisfies the desire for prepared, reverent worship, and just improvising the whole thing.
Maybe this prayer, attributed to Pope Clement , could be put to good use.
Almighty God, reveal to us what we do not know;
Perfect in us what is lacking;
Strengthen in us what we know;
And keep us faultless in your service,
Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen
In classic CofE terminology, the doxology usually means the prose version that is said/sung at the end of a psalm or prose canticle. "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost etc...".
I think what is being referred to in the earlier posts is the metrical version of that doxology which comes at the end of a metrical psalm in Long Metre (8. 8. 8. 8.). The reference to the Old Hundredth is probably an indicator that in places where this habitually sung when the collection is brought up, the tune it's sung to is the one normally used for the metrical version of the 100th psalm, All people that on earth do dwell.
As @TheOrganist has explained, versions exist in other metres.
In classic CofE terminology, the doxology usually means the prose version that is said/sung at the end of a psalm or prose canticle. "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost etc...".
In Orthodox hymnography in the Anglophone world that is technically known as the "GNE".
@TheOrganist and @Enoch, yes. For reasons I know not, among many Protestant churches on this side of The Pond (including in this instance some Episcopal churches), the particular doxological verse I quoted above came to be sung on its own, without the metrical psalm(s) to which it had previously been attached. Typically it was (and is) sung at the offertory as described, though in some places it was sung at the beginning of the service. And in the process, it went from being a doxology to being known as the Doxology.
1. There are many things that lots of churches "don't do" in order to maintain their identity. So - for instance - many Anglican churches don't do praise bands and worship songs because they don't want to be confused with the happy-clappy Charismatics. Or Reformed churches which don't do emotion because they're not Pentecostals. We all have our traditions to maintain. However ...
2. At the evangelical end of things, the boundaries are being increasingly blurred as I think there are some Anglican churches which behave (not just in worship) very like many Baptist or Independent churches. (Interestingly back in the late 1950s/early 1960s things were going the other way as there was a strong liturgical movement among Baptists). I think this reflects the fact that many Christian sit loose to denominational links; what they are more concerned about is worship style or theological position.
Very true and it comes up in all sorts of ways. Usually someone discovers that despite worshiping somewhere for years, they can't do x or y because they haven't gone through the appropriate due process for baptism or membership etc. It used to cause upset, but the main response now is incomprehension that this is an issue. Because we're all Christians surely?!
I have taken to printing house rules in the bulletin. It begins with "If you are a baptized, communicant member of your own church, you are welcome to join us in the Lord's Supper." On certain occasions when there are a lot of visitors I might also warn them that it is Taylor's not Welch's in the chalice.
Technically, Welch’s, not Welch. The story of British-born, American Wesleyan Methodist minister (and dentist) Thomas Bramwell Welch, who developed the pasteurization of unfermented grape juice specifically for use in Communion, is actually pretty interesting.
Can I ask if there is a bit of confusion here as to the meaning of the word "offertory"? I first encountered this in a Presbyterian church some years ago.
In my tradition and that of many others, the word "offertory" refers to the passing round of the collection bags (or whatever) and taking them to the front to be dedicated.
However am I right that in more sacramental traditions we're actually talking about presenting before God the elements which are to be used in the Eucharist?
Yes, but that is done at the same time (or during the same hymn) as the passing round of the collection bag/basket.
If it should be (say) a non-Eucharistic service, the offertory/collection would involve only the cash.
I realized that, perhaps given @Baptist Trainfan’s reference to first encountering confusion as to the meaning of the term “offertory” in a Presbyterian church, maybe I should weigh in a little more on this.
I'm not sure what Baptist Trainfan encountered. My understanding is that in Scotland, the elements are brought in by the elders during the singing of a psalm or hymn, traditionally Ps. 24. Whether that happens during or after the collection of offerings, I can't say. But at least in Presbyterian churches on this side of The Pond, the passing round of the collection plates/baskets and the presentation of the elements do not generally happen at the same time.
The long-standing tradition here is that the Table is prepared before the service starts, so that the elements are on the Table throughout the service. Just how long this tradition has been standing, and whether it predates the use of wee cuppies, I cannot say. Until recent decades, the practice was that the elements were placed on the Table and "decently covered" with a white linen cloth prior to the service. After the offertory (as in collection) and the obligatory singing of the Doxology ( ), the minister would call/invite the congregation to the Table, and then as a hymn was sung, elders would remove the white linen cloth and the lids from the wee cuppie trays. After communion, the lids and cloth were put back while the congregation sang another hymn, and then the remaining elements were removed from the Table after the service was over.
I haven't seen the Table covered in this way for a few decades, though it may still happen somewhere. I do occasionally see smaller linen cloths used to cover the plates/baskets of bread and and chalices until the hymn before Communion. (At our place, we only use wee cuppies twice a year now.) But the typical practice is still that the Table is prepared before the service, not during, and that after the collection of offering, the minister speaks the invitation and a hymn is sung. If there's any preparation that still needs to happen, it happens during that hymn.
Our liturgical books and guides have, for decades now, encouraged re-establishing the connection between the two offertories, as it were, by setting as the norm that the Table is prepared during the collection or, if already set, uncovered during the collection. And I occasionally see it done that way (and would very much like to see it done that way as standard practice). But having the Table prepared before the service seems to be one of those "we've always done it this way" things that is very deeply ingrained. Ditto the pattern of collection–Doxology–invitation to the Table–Communion hymn.
Thank you. British Baptist churches would usually (?always) follow the prepare-the-elements-and-place-them-on-the-table-before-the-service-starts format. Very often they are covered with a cloth which is removed immediately before the Communion, though I can't really see the point! (However in my last church we did occasionally have plaster dust drifting down from a crack in the ceiling so the covers did fulfil a purpose!)
Well, AIUI, elaborate baldachinos, or whatever, as well as linen cloths etc. were provided over/on altars in the Middle Ages, partly to prevent Bat Poo, and other undesirable thingies, falling onto/into the elements...
Yes, a lot of things that are done in church originally had a practical purpose, now (often) long lost in the Mists of Time. One compliment that was paid to Our Place some years ago was that the ceremonial and ritual we used at that date was very practical, and matter-of-fact.
We have progressed even further down that road since then, and pursue what to me is a satisfactorily minimalist routine...given that we insist on faffing about setting fire to candles, incense, and such-like...
Thank you. British Baptist churches would usually (?always) follow the prepare-the-elements-and-place-them-on-the-table-before-the-service-starts format. Very often they are covered with a cloth which is removed immediately before the Communion, though I can't really see the point! (However in my last church we did occasionally have plaster dust drifting down from a crack in the ceiling so the covers did fulfil a purpose!)
An excursus, but I had long not seen the point of the pall, which serves a similar purpose for we sacramentalists. Then, very early in my time at a church without walls (literally) in the Close to the Equator reaches of Oz, I poured the wine, added the minuscule drop of water, did all the make it holy stuff, epiclesis included of course, all the time ignoring the pall.
Just after Jesus dropped in and by aid of His Spirit and the mysteries of perichoresis and aforementioned epiclesis transformed the nice Taylors-equivalent into His Most Precious Blood I watched as a big lazy blowie (OZ-speak for blowfly) made its lazy but theatrical and circuitous route and kamikazied into the drink. It buzzed laconically for a moment or two and then expired.
Happily I suspect.
There have been big debates about the New Heavens and New Earth and the creatures that shall inhabit it. I think that blowie can lay a claim.
But he/she (I never found out) did raise a few issues about consumption and or reverent disposal.
@TheOrganist and @Enoch, yes. For reasons I know not, among many Protestant churches on this side of The Pond (including in this instance some Episcopal churches), the particular doxological verse I quoted above came to be sung on its own, without the metrical psalm(s) to which it had previously been attached. Typically it was (and is) sung at the offertory as described, though in some places it was sung at the beginning of the service. And in the process, it went from being a doxology to being known as the Doxology.
@Nick Tamen - That triggers the memory of a reference to Scottish Episcopal worship where, before they adopted the BCP under Queen Anne, which claimed that about the only thing to distinguish SEC worship from the Kirk was that the Piskies always sang the doxology at the end of the metrical psalms. Of course, the Piskie/Anglican tradition was pretty much Psalmody only until the turn of the 19th century with Tate and Brady ruling the roost for much of the 18th century.
I rather like the idea of the elders bring the elements up to the singing of Ps. 24, I assume in the Scottish Version. At our place I cannot quite get the two integrated , but the elements get moved from the credence table to the altar (I am afraid the Lutherans left us a large and very pretty stone thing which defies any other description) whilst the sidesman is taking the plate for a walk, so we are almost there.
In the First Order for Holy Communion in the United Reformed Church, largely if not completely following the Presbyterian pattern, the rubric for the Offertory states: "The bread and the wine may be brought to the table, with the gifts of the people. If the bread and wine are already on the table, they should now be uncovered". In fact I doubt very much if the elements are ever not on the Table already, but I may be wrong.
Presumably because the filling of the wee cuppies and the cutting of bread into cubes needs to be done carefully in a vestry beforehand and takes time?
I have inherited three churches which process the elements. This is done just after the offering, while we sing the communion hymn - sometimes the traditional Psalm 24. (Ye gates lift up your heads on high, to the tune St. George’s Edinburgh). But in fact that is not really long enough to begin singing, lead the elders out, pray over the elements, get the elders lined up and get them in again, even when we are only talking 4 or 6 elders, depending on the congregation. In fact, one of the factors in choosing the hymn is length, as well as content!
I was hoping you or another Kirk shipmate would weigh in, Cathscat. Thanks. And I had never heard about a prayer over the elements before they are brought in. What kind of prayer, exactly?
When I have seen a procession of the elements in a Presbyterian service here, the elders, who were not sitting as a group in the congregation, generally have basically slipped out during the (monetary) offering or, perhaps, at the start of the communion hymn, gathered back/narthex/wherever the elements are, and then brought them in during the singing of the communion hymn. No ceremony other than processing in which them. The minister doesn’t go to the back with the elders; rather, he or she waits at the Table.
On one occasion, I have seen the elders go to the back during the offertory and bring the elements forward at the same time that monetary gifts are brought forward.
FWIW, a similar pattern is followed at our place when the elements are on the Table from the start of the service—those elders serving Communion gather in the back at the start of the communion hymn and then come forward as a group during the last verse.
Presumably because the filling of the wee cuppies and the cutting of bread into cubes needs to be done carefully in a vestry beforehand and takes time?
Yes, but they can then be processed in on their trays and plates (see the posts above).
In the First Order for Holy Communion in the United Reformed Church, largely if not completely following the Presbyterian pattern, the rubric for the Offertory states: "The bread and the wine may be brought to the table, with the gifts of the people. If the bread and wine are already on the table, they should now be uncovered". In fact I doubt very much if the elements are ever not on the Table already, but I may be wrong.
The offerings of the people are collected. The bread and wine may be brought to the table or if already present are uncovered.
The only procession I know with the elements occurred at the beginning of the service but I can quite see how it might happen at that point in other churches of a Scots Presbyterian heritage*
*Phrased that awkward way as
a) English Presbyterianism is in the heritage of many churches which called themselves Congregational, certainly more than came from the Presbyterian Church of England.
b) The Presbyterian Church of England had congregations which were founded by members from a variety of Scottish Presbyterian churches
Hey @Nick Tamen there is so much that you just make up on the hoof, because no one tells you and there isn’t a book of words. When I realised tat the elders were waiting for me to pray, I did. I usually ask that we who serve may be blessed in our serving. My previous congregations had the elements in place at the beginning fo the service. There’s no one way or hard rules.
Many years ago I was told by an elderly con evo priest that it was wrong for the elements to be presented by laity, elders or sidesmen. He said that they are not our offerings to God. The communion elements are his gift to us and as such should be on the table, already present.
In the RC church the offering of bread and wine are accompanied by the other offerings of those present ,usually in the form of money. It wouldn't be practical if everyone present brought bread and wine. (Though perhaps in connection with this idea,in some churches those who propose to go to Communion will put an unconsecrated Host in the ciborium when they come in to church and this is brought up to the celebrant at the offertory ).
I have also heard it said that the real 'offertory' is the offering of the consecrated Host and Precious Blood to God above,which is the reason why the eucharistic liturgy is sometimes called 'The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass'
Comments
Seen from that angle it makes a good deal of sense.
In PDR’s setting there is an offertory hymn at the presentation of the gifts which concludes with (I’m guessing) an instrumental doxology on the organ. If the hymn is not long enough the organist fills in with other musical ‘twiddling’ bringing it to a close at the right time™ with the flourish of a musical doxology.
Hers didn't. They've since closed it.
I've seen it sung at the end of a dramatic organ improvisation with a squadron of dark-suited business executives (serving as sidesmen/ushers) marching altarward with almsbasins overflowing with cash. Affluent, large suburban parish in the USA. Stirring and sickening all at once! (The Doxology is not what's sickening...the overhype of the presentation of the cash is.)
No offertory hymn, usually, over here. What one usually happens is instrumental noodling whilst the sidemen shake down the congregation. The doxology starts, as far as I can tell, the minute they disappear from the organist's sight under the front of the gallery.
Very true and it comes up in all sorts of ways. Usually someone discovers that despite worshiping somewhere for years, they can't do x or y because they haven't gone through the appropriate due process for baptism or membership etc. It used to cause upset, but the main response now is incomprehension that this is an issue. Because we're all Christians surely?!
We have a long-ish hymn at the Offertory, whilst the elements are brought up, the altar prepared, and everything (and everybody) in sight duly censed.
Should the hymn not be quite long enough, one of our organists 'tweedles' (I think that's the correct term - 'noodling' is clearly an Americanism) a variation or several on the hymn tune. The other organist tends not to do that, so the censing is done in silence. I really must get hold of an Orthodox thurible with Bells...
Meanwhile, during the hymn, the collection has been taken up, and the basket placed reverently on a side altar, ready for the Treasurer to pick up after the service. No Elevation Of The Money here!!
The regular Sunday congregation is small enough for all this to be done without undue haste, so that everyone is ready for the start of the Eucharistic Prayer.
But now we have a deacon who gets all the bits and bobs ready on the altar and fills the chalices etc while the kids are showing and telling and promising not to kick their little sister etc, so the priest is straight into the offertory prayers and my noodling time has been slashed!
The lectionary reading/s. Retitle the readings and possibly the sermon as "The Voxology" in the Order of Service. That would appeal.
In my tradition and that of many others, the word "offertory" refers to the passing round of the collection bags (or whatever) and taking them to the front to be dedicated.
However am I right that in more sacramental traditions we're actually talking about presenting before God the elements which are to be used in the Eucharist?
If it should be (say) a non-Eucharistic service, the offertory/collection would involve only the cash.
Laud and honour to the Father
Laud and honour to the Son
Laud and honour to the Spirit
Ever three and ever one.
Consubstantial, co-eternal
While unending ages run. Amen.
N.B. A doxology verse should always be finished off with an Amen.
Maybe this prayer, attributed to Pope Clement , could be put to good use.
Perfect in us what is lacking;
Strengthen in us what we know;
And keep us faultless in your service,
Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen
Well, 'local custom' often comes into play!
I think what is being referred to in the earlier posts is the metrical version of that doxology which comes at the end of a metrical psalm in Long Metre (8. 8. 8. 8.). The reference to the Old Hundredth is probably an indicator that in places where this habitually sung when the collection is brought up, the tune it's sung to is the one normally used for the metrical version of the 100th psalm, All people that on earth do dwell.
As @TheOrganist has explained, versions exist in other metres.
In Orthodox hymnography in the Anglophone world that is technically known as the "GNE".
I have taken to printing house rules in the bulletin. It begins with "If you are a baptized, communicant member of your own church, you are welcome to join us in the Lord's Supper." On certain occasions when there are a lot of visitors I might also warn them that it is Taylor's not Welch's in the chalice.
Thanks - I knew of Taylor of course but had to guess at Welch.
I realized that, perhaps given @Baptist Trainfan’s reference to first encountering confusion as to the meaning of the term “offertory” in a Presbyterian church, maybe I should weigh in a little more on this.
I'm not sure what Baptist Trainfan encountered. My understanding is that in Scotland, the elements are brought in by the elders during the singing of a psalm or hymn, traditionally Ps. 24. Whether that happens during or after the collection of offerings, I can't say. But at least in Presbyterian churches on this side of The Pond, the passing round of the collection plates/baskets and the presentation of the elements do not generally happen at the same time.
The long-standing tradition here is that the Table is prepared before the service starts, so that the elements are on the Table throughout the service. Just how long this tradition has been standing, and whether it predates the use of wee cuppies, I cannot say. Until recent decades, the practice was that the elements were placed on the Table and "decently covered" with a white linen cloth prior to the service. After the offertory (as in collection) and the obligatory singing of the Doxology (
I haven't seen the Table covered in this way for a few decades, though it may still happen somewhere. I do occasionally see smaller linen cloths used to cover the plates/baskets of bread and and chalices until the hymn before Communion. (At our place, we only use wee cuppies twice a year now.) But the typical practice is still that the Table is prepared before the service, not during, and that after the collection of offering, the minister speaks the invitation and a hymn is sung. If there's any preparation that still needs to happen, it happens during that hymn.
Our liturgical books and guides have, for decades now, encouraged re-establishing the connection between the two offertories, as it were, by setting as the norm that the Table is prepared during the collection or, if already set, uncovered during the collection. And I occasionally see it done that way (and would very much like to see it done that way as standard practice). But having the Table prepared before the service seems to be one of those "we've always done it this way" things that is very deeply ingrained. Ditto the pattern of collection–Doxology–invitation to the Table–Communion hymn.
A bit like Tying Up The Cat (if you know that story).
Yes, a lot of things that are done in church originally had a practical purpose, now (often) long lost in the Mists of Time. One compliment that was paid to Our Place some years ago was that the ceremonial and ritual we used at that date was very practical, and matter-of-fact.
We have progressed even further down that road since then, and pursue what to me is a satisfactorily minimalist routine...given that we insist on faffing about setting fire to candles, incense, and such-like...
An excursus, but I had long not seen the point of the pall, which serves a similar purpose for we sacramentalists. Then, very early in my time at a church without walls (literally) in the Close to the Equator reaches of Oz, I poured the wine, added the minuscule drop of water, did all the make it holy stuff, epiclesis included of course, all the time ignoring the pall.
Just after Jesus dropped in and by aid of His Spirit and the mysteries of perichoresis and aforementioned epiclesis transformed the nice Taylors-equivalent into His Most Precious Blood I watched as a big lazy blowie (OZ-speak for blowfly) made its lazy but theatrical and circuitous route and kamikazied into the drink. It buzzed laconically for a moment or two and then expired.
Happily I suspect.
There have been big debates about the New Heavens and New Earth and the creatures that shall inhabit it. I think that blowie can lay a claim.
But he/she (I never found out) did raise a few issues about consumption and or reverent disposal.
There was no need for post-mortem.
Thank you!
'O - we make a sudden high-step up into the air at that point in the sanctuary, because there used to be a hassock on the floor there...'
A tale told by the late +Michael Perham, when conducting a course on the proper use of liturgy.
Though I think tying up a cat could be counterproductive
Not AFAIK - they'd just Always Done It.
@Nick Tamen - That triggers the memory of a reference to Scottish Episcopal worship where, before they adopted the BCP under Queen Anne, which claimed that about the only thing to distinguish SEC worship from the Kirk was that the Piskies always sang the doxology at the end of the metrical psalms. Of course, the Piskie/Anglican tradition was pretty much Psalmody only until the turn of the 19th century with Tate and Brady ruling the roost for much of the 18th century.
I rather like the idea of the elders bring the elements up to the singing of Ps. 24, I assume in the Scottish Version. At our place I cannot quite get the two integrated , but the elements get moved from the credence table to the altar (I am afraid the Lutherans left us a large and very pretty stone thing which defies any other description) whilst the sidesman is taking the plate for a walk, so we are almost there.
When I have seen a procession of the elements in a Presbyterian service here, the elders, who were not sitting as a group in the congregation, generally have basically slipped out during the (monetary) offering or, perhaps, at the start of the communion hymn, gathered back/narthex/wherever the elements are, and then brought them in during the singing of the communion hymn. No ceremony other than processing in which them. The minister doesn’t go to the back with the elders; rather, he or she waits at the Table.
On one occasion, I have seen the elders go to the back during the offertory and bring the elements forward at the same time that monetary gifts are brought forward.
FWIW, a similar pattern is followed at our place when the elements are on the Table from the start of the service—those elders serving Communion gather in the back at the start of the communion hymn and then come forward as a group during the last verse.
Yes, but they can then be processed in on their trays and plates (see the posts above).
Actually it is in the current Worship book as well though worded slightly differently
The only procession I know with the elements occurred at the beginning of the service but I can quite see how it might happen at that point in other churches of a Scots Presbyterian heritage*
*Phrased that awkward way as
a) English Presbyterianism is in the heritage of many churches which called themselves Congregational, certainly more than came from the Presbyterian Church of England.
b) The Presbyterian Church of England had congregations which were founded by members from a variety of Scottish Presbyterian churches
"... properly."
At which point the "fun" really begins, and either you convert them or they convert you.
I have also heard it said that the real 'offertory' is the offering of the consecrated Host and Precious Blood to God above,which is the reason why the eucharistic liturgy is sometimes called 'The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass'