Worship in other tongues
Urganda has posted an MW report of a glorious Evensong at Wells Cathedral: a beautiful act of worship in a beautiful place. However it has left me with a question - which may well be a Dead Horse but I can't recall it being discussed recently - about whether one should hold services in a language which isn't the "common tongue" and is thus unintelligible to the majority of people.
Granted, this was a "once off" annual tradition; and we were told that there was a printed introduction in English. Nevertheless one might want to ask, while acknowledging that worshippers' hearts were lifted up, how meaningful such a service would have been to people who were not familiar with Evensong? Indeed, was there any danger of this service being more "vaguely spiritual" a or aesthetic than expressely Christian? And might one even ask if Paul's injunction in 1 Corinthians 14 about "singing with the mind" is relevant here?
Granted, this was a "once off" annual tradition; and we were told that there was a printed introduction in English. Nevertheless one might want to ask, while acknowledging that worshippers' hearts were lifted up, how meaningful such a service would have been to people who were not familiar with Evensong? Indeed, was there any danger of this service being more "vaguely spiritual" a or aesthetic than expressely Christian? And might one even ask if Paul's injunction in 1 Corinthians 14 about "singing with the mind" is relevant here?
Comments
Presumably, this was the Roman Catholic service, and I suppose it is sung in Latin every day at Downside Abbey, but in general I should say that worship ought indeed to be conducted in the language of the majority of the people present.
In order to understand, one has to understand a lot more than the individual words.
Kyrie eleison
I'd venture to suggest that people who weren't familiar with Evensong (or even Vespers) might be unlikely to pop in to the cathedral on a Friday night to hear it. I agree with you that in the general case worship should be conducted in the vernacular. I also like chanting in Latin, and if you give me a choice between chants in Latin or a praise band in English, I'll take the Latin every time.
But I know what the Latin means, which for me is the difference between singing in Latin and Swahili. (And no, I wouldn't be able to follow a sermon preached in Latin.)
To a point, I could actually prefer praying in Latin - because I'm not fluent in Latin, it makes me think about the meaning of what I'm saying, rather than just chuntering through on autopilot. Sometimes when we recite the creed, I'm adding the Latin in my head to make me think about what we're saying.
Exchanges of this kind were pioneered by St Paul's and Westminster cathedrals in 1990 (I think) and they took their inspiration from the occasion when the monks of Ampleforth were invited to sing Vespers at Westminster Abbey on the day of Basil Hume's enthronement in 1976 - and I was there!
I don't think it matters a jot that some/many of those present won't have understood every word (although I'd be surprised if there wasn't an Order of Service with translations), the attitude of people will have been reverent and that can be enough.
When I was out in Venice as a student back in the mid 2000s, we had BCP communion every Sunday as that was what the congregation generally grew up on, whichever side of the Pond they hailed from. It was a bit of an education in a variety of ways, having grown up on ASB/CW eucharists, and having started on the steady slope to Anglo-Catholicism by then, but obviously appealed to their demographic.
I am a rarity in that I went to a state school and did A-Level Latin. Unfortunately my alma mater has had to drop it after GCSE now. I can therefore actually understand it, though I'm better at reading it than listening to it. The fact that so few people actually study it properly these days in the UK means that without translation it would be bordering on unintelligible to anyone who doesn't have any great knowledge of a romance language or two.
Of course services in a foreign language are much easier to follow at some level if you know the underlying form: I went to an Italian Mass a couple of times (Sitting at the back is the best way to see some of the dome mosaics at St Marks, and I wasn't going to miss the patronal High Mass at La Salute!)
My Latin is not good enough to be able to say that praying in it would be, for me, even a valid or beneficial spiritual practice. I'm not sure there's anyone else in the churches I regularly have any involvement with whose Latin is even up to my minimal memories of it.
A praise band in Latin would be sufficiently amusing that I'd have to try it out at least once, but I don't think the typical praise band fare would be improved by a Latin translation.
Maybe not improved, but it would be very difficult to make it worse.
That might not extend to translating literally every word said or sung into the usual language in the country in question, but I think it implies at least explaining what is being said or sung, much as a libretto does for opera.
Christianity may be transcendent, but it is not esoteric.
This is why I don't see the point of the OP. If it was the cathedral's standard approach, I would agree that ther was a question to answer. Nor was this done for the edification of the one-off visitor. This was done as a response of the cathedral to the occasion of the Week of Prayer for Christian Union. This, to me, is hospitality in action: making real space in the cathedral's life for something that is from outside. There is no attempt to seal it off in a "this is special" bubble, and I'm sure that the congregation was given the tools to understand what was happening.
But then it's explicitly acknowledged that this is a highly unusual service. At which point the whole basis for the OP kind of collapses.
It is quite likely that these people are being drawn in partly because it is in LATIN. In which case there is little point in turning it into English.
Well in general things should be understandable.
The centuries that the RC church spent insisting that Latin was God's own language are nothing more than a prime case of people holding onto a 'tradition' without understanding the rationale for its original existence.
If you want a particular piece of music that was composed in Latin then I would almost always be in favour of performing it in Latin. But then, the question should be why you're choosing to perform that particular piece of music in the context of a church service.
Having sung Vespers in Latin in my younger days - I am THAT old - I would think that sitting through five Latin psalms might stretch the concentration a bit. But that's a Vespers thing.
I have been to Mass in Latin, French, German, Italian, Swahili, Provencal and Welsh. But that is a different ball game because the structure helps you along so you can follow the action and plug in.
I remember going to Mass in Alsace in a beautiful modern chapel that overlooked the valley below. I was there with wife and kids and there was a bunch of German Boy Scouts and a couple of locals who probably spoke more Alasatian than French. The elderly priest came and chatted before Mass and then announced that he would celebrate in Latin as there was a mixture of languages in the congregation. The result was that he and I were the only people who knew the responses etc.
Didn't the BCP state that worship should be "Understanded of the people?" or somesuch, and didn't some Oxbridge colleges worship in Latin at times because you needed Latin to enrol?
Any road, as they say, I don't have any issue at all as long as folks have a translation in front of them. Most people can read these days.
Actually I think most praise band fare would be vastly improved by being in a language that few would understand, thus being spared from the banality of the sentiments expressed and the terrible doggerel used so to do.
Cathedral choirs (and others) often sing classical settings of the Mass in Latin, though most cathedrals provide the English translation in the service booklet, at least IME.
The 1662 BCP is 'legally' available in Latin (for use in the Universities) and in French (for use in the Channel Islands, AIUI). Our cathedral does an annual Evensong for the French Hospital (a Huguenot foundation), partly in French, and partly in English - but with translations provided. IIRC, one or two of the hymns were also in French.
We know that, at the time of the English Reformation there were some uprisings which protested against the use of English in the liturgy and we also know that at the more modern time of the change of language in the Catholic liturgy there were a number of people who protested against this . In time I think that most Catholic nowadays will take it as normal that the liturgy is celebrated in their own language. Fewer and ever fewer will remember the days of the regular Latin Mass. At that time those who were there regularly would have known what was going on, even if they did not understand every word.
But as our priest recently said 'the Church did not begin in the 1960s'. We have a long past and it is good sometimes to celebrate that past. Not very religious service has to be an evangelistic service which seeks to persuade people of the core teaching of Jesus Christ.
There can be times when we simply wish to lift up our hearts and minds to God and to sing his praises. such might have been that occasion of Latin Vespers.
On a personal level along with most Catholics of my age I would have regularly sung the following words in Latin (at one of the few times when lay people would participate verbally in the Latin liturgy)
O salutaris Hostia,quae coeli pandis ostium
Bella premunt hostilia,da robur fer auxilium.
Although I understand, better than most ,ecclesiastical Latin ,it is only relatively recently that I have understood exactly the meanings of the words - partly because the last line was divided in singing into 'da robur fer' and 'auxilium'. Nevertheless I knew and still know exactly in what context the words were used and exactly what they signified, even if I did not understand each word.
@Arethosemyfeet, whose cathedral was that? Wikipedia lists at least three?
Was that because the Gaelic psalm tradition belongs to a different denomination from that particular Cathedral, who wouldn't dream of doing anything that 'them up the road' might do, or was it because the choir doesn't know how to sing them?
I know the Downside/Wells context was different, but for the monastic community there is nothing alien in worshipping in Latin and people were simply invited to pray and worship along with them.
I understand the Reformation principle that worship should be in the common tongue, and no-one now contradicts that. But if you take it to an extreme it becomes a matter of the head ruling the heart, and although that might be religion for some people it's not how it always has been, or should be.
It was the SEC Cathedral. As I understand it the Gaelic psalm tradition was common to both the Presbyterians and Episcopalians (which shouldn't be surprising given Episcopalianism hung around in the Highlands more than the Lowlands after 1689) but the choir at St Mary's Cathedral in Edinburgh is in the English mould, with that repertoire. I think it would be unlikely that the SEC at a Gaelic Eucharist would refuse to use any form of Gaelic Psalmody, so my bet is on it being beyond the choir in the available rehearsal time. My limited experience suggests that it is harder as an English speaker to sing in Gaelic than it is in Latin.
The Other Cathedral in your neck of the woods of course has a chapel exclusively reserved for a Huguenot congregation who still meet weekly. My uncle has played for them and says that all the chat before and after is in English, as most of the congregation are British, but as soon as it starts it's in French.
That was my immediate thought actually.
Most people can pick up a few words in other languages anyway and often they do verse after verse in a different language with a different "cantor" so you get your "turn".
And I do recall Frere Roger saying that they used Latin as most of the "youth" actually quite liked the sound and cadence of it and appreciated its antiquity and universality. Also it was vaguely familiar while not sparking "old school trauma"
It is indeed true, I think, that in such a setting, the actual language used becomes less important than the praying, though IIRC most of the chants are available in the language of one's choice (well, sort of), online, and in the books published by Taize.
NB when I visited the entire gathering of several thousand singing in parts was accompanied by a single acoustic guitar who kept everyone in time and in tune. A very skilful player. The simplicity and starkness was deeply moving.
I've always parsed that as an imperative - Luce(? - Latin rusty)
'Quod amicum Jesu habemus' would be another one that doesn't fit the original tune. On the other hand, nor does 'Laude anima mea Regem cœli'.
But I think all three of you should have Prizes, anyway. I don't even know what the silly ditty means in English.
It may read that way, but grammatically it’s a third person singular subjunctive in the present active. It can probably be translated as a jussive subjunctive, so “let Jesus shine.”
Also, as may be clear, I’m a big fan of Latin and think that religions having a holy language is good. I’ve always been a fan of Christians knowing Latin and Ancient Greek, and worshipping in Latin, though I’m a bit in the minority.
Thank you @ECraigR for giving me something to say to our hymn-chooser on Sunday, on which inauspicious day the Shiny Song is scheduled to be bellowed...
...it’s...a jussive subjunctive, so “let Jesus shine.”
I see what you mean, and I agree - but it's not often that one can throw 'jussive subjunctive' into the conversation!
Someone further up this thread suggested that the language of worship should generally be intelligible, even if some of the words, phrases, and ideas, may not necessarily be understood at first.
An important point, IMHO.
I once preached a sermon which was completely undergirded by the word "proleptic" - but I never actually said it - although my wife guessed! After all, I'm trying to educate, inspire and challenge my listeners, not training them to pass a theology exam (which isn't to say that I don't want them to be theologically literate!)
'luceat lux vestra coram hominibus,ut videant opera vestra bona'
let your light shine before men,that they may see your good works,
'videant' is also subjunctive.
(English often uses helping verbs to 'help' form the subjunctive)
O heck - I had to look up 'proleptic' - ignoramus that I am!
But it's also necessary, these days, to remember that not all of our listeners even have English as their first language. This is perhaps especially true of churches in urban areas, and may explain (to a degree) why Our Place seems to attract people from other countries who at least are familiar with the general form of the Eucharist/Mass/Holy Communion.
They may not understand everything that is said (especially if it's me that's preaching), but at least they'll have some idea of what's going on. I think this point has also been made before on this thread.
But ISWYM. How does one go about helping a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual Assembly Of Faith to understand as much as possible of a 'normal' Sunday service (if there is such a thing)?
Incidentally, last Sunday we had people at Mass from the UK, Ireland, Nigeria, Barbados, the Philippines, India (Kerala, same as my Auntie), and Trinidad. A previous regular contingent of Poles has gone back to Poland, owing to Brexit
This is nothing exceptional, I think - it simply reflects the current demographics of our parish.