There are intensive driving courses where, I think, you start on the Monday morning with lesson 1 and finish with a driving test on Friday afternoon.
I would advise against these (indeed I'd like to see them banned and a driving hours requirement introduced). They might get you through the test but I cannot believe they will make you a good driver.
Something has to explain the appalling driving I see daily by people who have allegedly passed the test.
Okay, gimme advice, please. I have a 19-year-old with anxiety attacks who really needs to learn to drive in the very near future (going off to college). I can't decide whether I attempt to teach him myself or whether I pay somebody. Relevant info: we both have anxiety and even panic attacks, though I haven't had one in the car with him up to now--and we've done about 10 hours worth of driving in parking lots, etc. already. But I'm worrying about how I find someone competent and decent (had a terrible experience with my own school driving instructor) and will doubtless freak out if and when he's out tooling around with a stranger outside of eyeshot (will imagine crashes, etc.) At least I know he's not dead if I'm teaching him. Someone talk me off the ceiling here?
Lamb Chopped I found it less stressful to pay for driving lessons for my youngest brother than to teach him how to drive. It meant that my own nervousness wasn't getting in his way. He is a far better driver now than I could ever hope to be, while I only carry a drivers' licence for ID purposes.
Have any of his friends had lessons? If so they may be able to suggest an instructor.
Much less stressful, and better for your mother-child relationship to have someone else teach him! Doesn’t mean you can’t sit beside him for bouts of practice, rather than lessons (or is that not how it works in the States?). Even that might make you twitch! When my daughter was learning I used to sit on my hands, when sitting with her in practice drives, and still the hands would slide out and start wringing themselves without me noticing! And I do not suffer panic attacks....
I would certainly go for a professional driving instructor who is experienced in passing on the range of skills needed for driving. Also, however hard you try, if you’re anxious you will communicate anxiety.
I’m not being mean when I say your son will probably be safer on the road with a professional instructor than he would with you.
As for choosing an instructor, I second the advice from @Huia. Find out who’s got a good reputation for calmness and success.
Okay, gimme advice, please. I have a 19-year-old with anxiety attacks who really needs to learn to drive in the very near future (going off to college). I can't decide whether I attempt to teach him myself or whether I pay somebody. Relevant info: we both have anxiety and even panic attacks, though I haven't had one in the car with him up to now--and we've done about 10 hours worth of driving in parking lots, etc. already. But I'm worrying about how I find someone competent and decent (had a terrible experience with my own school driving instructor) and will doubtless freak out if and when he's out tooling around with a stranger outside of eyeshot (will imagine crashes, etc.) At least I know he's not dead if I'm teaching him. Someone talk me off the ceiling here?
Would an electric bicycle be an option instead of a car ?
Of all the friends of my teenage years, male and female, the only one who became (and has remained) an unconfident (and, frankly, at times dangerous) driver is the one who was taught by their father. Even before he was married his wife-to-be made a decision that she was either the driver or would pay for a cab home.
Bite the bullet and pay for lessons. Meanwhile, cast around friends who are good drivers and see if there is one who, if you pay the insurance for them on your car, is prepared to sit in for practice sessions.
will doubtless freak out if and when he's out tooling around with a stranger outside of eyeshot (will imagine crashes, etc.) At least I know he's not dead if I'm teaching him.
Once he's passed his test he'll be tooling about outside of eyeshot. Teaching him yourself will only delay the point at which you start imaging the worst.
I could not teach my daughter; I found that driving is now so instinctive with me (been driving for 37 years) that I could not explain it! Paid lessons were much better for her.
My daughter used an instructor who was recommended by a friend - you could get your son to ask his classmates / Scout friends for recommendations.
Re electric bicycle — he’s thinking about uni in Minnesota, so nope nope nope. Most everybody we know has taught their own kids (or the traditional boyfriend etc) which leaves me floundering. Must do research to find somebody.
I believe the AAA has driving instructors. I do not think it is good for parents to teach their children. Uncomfortable for both. You can ride along for the practice trips around town.
" The Driving Book: Everything New Drivers Need to Know but Don't Know to Ask"
I bought this book for my grand-daughter when she learned to drive, and she told me that she loves it and found it very helpful. It was $10.00 on Amazon. She is a very good driver as reported by her father who did practice trips with her after a professional did the teaching. Good Luck to your son.
For what it is worth Mr Image tried to teach me to drive a stick. I already knew how to drive, but had only driven an automatic. After his first lesson, I got up in the middle of the night, took the car out and taught myself. It saved our marriage.
I think £25 a lesson is about right, if part of a block booking, at least it was suggested I gave my granddaughter £50 for two driving lessons for her 17 th birthday. I wish I had not encouraged her.
Fast forward to her 18 th and she gets a car, having passed her test first time. Six months later, her car being fitted with a black box, the insurance company bumps up the premium as the box recorded her as doing 103 mph. Not long after, she crashes into another vehicle, though inattention, and her car is a write-off. As she needs a car to get to college ( really? ) her parents have made her use her savings to buy a new one( savings to which I had contributed) . Insurance is of course through the roof.
Keep teenagers off the road!
LC, most driving instructors have dual control cars so that the learner can’t crash during the lesson. I assume you don’t, so your son will definitely be safer with a paid instructor. But I would suggest he discusses the anxiety honestly with the instructor, and perhaps with a health professional if it’s at the level of panic attacks.
I'll have to ask about the dual controls--we know "a" driving instructor here (through other connections, not as a customer) who basically set up on his own with no equipment or anything, and he's abusive--as in, he hits his trainees. I can't believe he hasn't been arrested yet.
I insisted that our daughters should have lessons from a qualified instructor, and it was a good investment. Our cars have all had manual transmissions (apart from one exceeding brief aberration), so they abused someone else's clutch before being let loose with ours, and learned a lot about handling the car. But I still remember the feeling in my gut when an excited Younger Daughter phoned me at work and said, "Dad I just passed my test can I take the car to go over to Jenny's?"
I had two lessons from my Dad before I refused to have any more and a professional was paid for. I did not have an anxiety complaint then but was highly strung, Dad never had an anxiety complaint but was also highly strung. The atmosphere was not good in the car. I suspect yours would be a magnified version.
I think that you should ask about dual control and who accredits the driving instructors. The Government is the accrediting body in the UK.
I was about the only person in my year at secondary school (rural) who didn't learn to drive, as I really did not want to practice with my dad. As it was it took me about 2 years in my mid-20s to learn. (I just had lessons as our marriage was better off with me not practicing in Mr Dragon's car, most of which were quite big.) We now share a car, but I don't often drive, so I do sometimes forget we now have an auto (hybrid), and I need to put it into drive to pull off.
If he doesn't click with an instructor there is no harm in not booking more lessons and looking for a different one, either in a group or completely separate.
Do any instructors advertise at your son's college? I know licencing is a bit different in the states.
We gave our two lessons for their 17th birthday, having bought a cheap and cheerful runabout for their practice with us. Both are now confident and good drivers.
Just in case you haven't thought of this yet: check the yellow pages (in whatever form they are there, print or online) for places that specialize in beginners, nervous students, etc.
Also: when it's time for the driving part of the license test, some wise instructors take students to a DMV office in a low-traffic area, even in another town. Fewer problems to deal with during the test.
I think there are websites with driving instruction and practice. Some might be free. That could at least get your kid started and learning.
A customer service question for our well-meaning UK dwelling shippies:
Recently, I've been buying a few items from a number of UK country clothing stores online, over here in Continental WesShire. Most of these were quite efficient and with helpful, friendly customer service staff, if they ever need to be got in touch with.
One particular poor example of customer service I've found to be with Fifecountry.co.uk, who never reply to my e-mail enquiries, or only if I send them a second e-mail. They may react when I ring them, but occasionally I want things done in writing.
In addition, they never even notify you when your parcel is ready for shipping; which means: I order, pay online, they confirm the order... and total radio silence till several days later when the parcel finally gets here! So I have no clue if there is a delay due to items out of stock, or any other reasons. (On the very positive side, there are other UK-based shops who send you a tracking number, or who at least tell you when the items have left their store. Those are reliable, and get me the customer service I think I deserve in this day and age.)
Fifecountry (and the manufacturer Hoggs of Fife) apparently were founded in 1888, with a mail order business right from Day 1, but possibly have never arrived in the 20th, let alone the 21st century!
Question: Have any of you got any experience with Fifecountry? They're as dour as dour gets. IMO.
I think you are probably right that Hoggs of Fife haven’t moved into the 21st century. They are a fairly small firm IIRC and are probably using the internet to advertise without updating their response systems!
I've just had Jehovah's witnesses at the door and the only thing I could come up with that was true and kind to make them go away in one sentence was "sorry I'm a standard christian." (I'm Anglican which feels pretty standard and doesn't have the value judgement of "normal". Doesn't sound right though. Anyone got a better suggestion?
I like it, HelenEva! After all, they're two and can think of every sort of argument beforehand, and you're just the one unsuspecting door opener. Success, and that's what counts!
I guess I could come up with some rather acerbic remarks, given time to think, but these don't belong here. - I think your reply was very appropriate and humane.
I've just had Jehovah's witnesses at the door and the only thing I could come up with that was true and kind to make them go away in one sentence was "sorry I'm a standard christian." (I'm Anglican which feels pretty standard and doesn't have the value judgement of "normal". Doesn't sound right though. Anyone got a better suggestion?
Tell them you're Roman Catholic: they'll think you're beyond saving and beat a hasty retreat.
The local JWs where I live (one is my neighbour so knows quite a bit about me) know I am Catholic. They still come to my door, different ones each time, I guess because they see it as their duty. They start talking in a vague way, normally making some big sweeping statement. Last time they said 'I was just thinking - one thing we all have in common is that we all say the Lord's Prayer, don't we' (which of course isn't true, as plenty of people don't, but they knew it would apply to me).
I just quickly say, in a friendly way, 'Oh, you're Jehovah's Witnesses, aren't you?' and they say 'Yes.' And I say, with a smile, 'I'm not interested in that, but thank you for your concern.' They seem to like that - they smile back, look a bit relieved, and say 'Okay, thank you for opening the door,' and then they leave, and we part on friendly terms, because we've both thanked each other. It's a very quick way to get them to go. I have said things in the past which weren't so welcome - not deliberately rude, but wrong tone, or not soft wording, and I could see in their faces it wasn't the best thing to say, but now the way I do it is well-received.
I found that whipping out a Greek New Testament and attempting to consult them on the variants of a particular verse generally leads to a hasty "We really must be going." This must be done with enthusiasm of course, and then a forlorn look as they edge quickly away.
Until a few years ago my neighbors on both sides of my house were JW. We were all good friends, going out to dinner, playing cards and such. They even invited us to their parties where we were the only,"outsiders," there. I guess they knew it was hopeless and never tried to convert us. One neighbor has moved away but we still hang out with the other couple. One of the husbands even helped me with my Christmas lights a few years ago, when I no longer was into ladder climbing. The only lights in the neighborhood for a while as my other neighbor is Buddhist. New neighbors are Italian so I am guess RC although they do not seem to attend church. We all continue to hang out together, especially in the summer. I make Christmas cookies for everyone. JW neighbors and I joke that they are "Winter Cookies."
A retired minister I knew when I was young used to invite them in, ply them with scones and get them to play monopoly with him. He told them that they would be doing a lonely man a service, which was true. He told me that he was also doing his neighbours a service by keeping the JWs or Mormons (both were common in our town at that time) occupied. Of course, he was also well able to debate if he felt that was called for.
Back in my college days, we used to get them regularly. Once we had a very good-looking college lad with an older woman trainer. I'm afraid she dragged him away (and cancelled future meetings!) after we got too interested in one another...
One of our church members is a retired academic (and former Buddhist) so he is very well read and usually invites JWs (and Mormons) in and spends at least two hours teaching them. Our pastor does the same, in less moderate tones!
I just explain I was confirmed Roman Catholic. It’s quicker and a Hail Mary usually does the trick.
May have posted this before... The last time the JWs came, I had been outside splitting firewood and had the axe in my hand. As they started the conversation I looked down and ran a finger along the edge of the axe, testing it, while mentioning I was happy to see them, as I was elder in the presbyterian church. Unaccountably, they politely made their excuses and left. They haven't been back.
Re. JWs: I try and keep them talking - debating with me keeps them from other people. Lord P once managed to keep them talking for an hour.
The other alternative is to tell them you’ve had a blood transfusion.
My dad (who is agnostic) says he has a regular JW who comes to his home, a young African guy, and they've become friends. He comes in and they have a nice chat, not about religion at all, and enjoy each other's company. The JW always leaves a tract on the sofa, which my dad later uses to light his log fire (though he doesn't tell the JW he does that!)
I would actually quite enjoy chatting to a JW about their beliefs and culture, simply to find out more, from curiosity. When the Mormons came round, they were so open and sincere (plus it was pouring with rain outside) that I invited them in and I was fascinated to hear about the Mormon lifestyle. The JWs round here often tend to have a sort of fear and defensiveness about them though, and so I don't think either I or they would enjoy a chat! But when I was working agency shifts in care homes, I once worked with a young woman who was an ex-JW - she had a more unusual biblical name, so I asked if she'd been named from the Bible, and she was surprised I knew the name, so the conversation arose from that. She was very open, so I asked her lots of questions and it was very interesting. I asked her about the elect and other things. She was actually very positive about the JW community, even though she and her parents had been kicked out - she said it was a lovely upbringing, being part of a bigger community that cared for each other.
I'm curious if anyone has genuine, friendly chats with JWs, where you discuss and learn about each other's beliefs in a respectful way. Does this ever happen?
I'm curious if anyone has genuine, friendly chats with JWs, where you discuss and learn about each other's beliefs in a respectful way. Does this ever happen?
My wife is good at these. The JWs inevitably give up before she does, though.
She learned this at the feet of my father-in-law. One anecdote from his day is that he went to JW Bible study. When they all got out their Watchtowers, he made to leave: "oh, I thought we were studying the Bible!". "Why, how do you study the Bible?" Result: he lead the JW Bible study group for several months before being found out by the hierarchy.
My observation is also that the less JWs are treated like a cult in a country, the less they behave like one. The difference between how they go down in France and in the UK, and in how they respond, is notable.
I think it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that JWs stop being heterodox. They are very close to dispensationalist evangelicals in many ways, and there is precedent for groups returning massively to orthodoxy: the Christadelphians are a UK example.
In a job where I used to work I had a manager who had been raised JW (most of her family still was, but she was not) and a co-worker who was a recent convert to JW. The new convert was very ardent about her new faith* and very defensive. Our manager was very willing to talk about it -- she was knowledgeable but very objective. I felt comfortable asking her questions I never would have asked the new convert.
*So ardent, the last we saw of her she was moving across the country to marry, sight unseen, a man her "spiritual mother" wanted her to. She quit her job, sold her house and car, and even gave away her two dogs. I've often wondered how that worked out.
I'm curious if anyone has genuine, friendly chats with JWs, where you discuss and learn about each other's beliefs in a respectful way. Does this ever happen?
My late Granddad managed this. L & M visited him weekly for over a year, chatting in the hall rather than the living room, but always on a friendly basis. They swapped church anecdotes and family news. When he died they didn't feel like they could attend the service, but stood by the side of the road outside the cemetery as the hearse went past. I still see L working in the supermarket occasionally and we pass the time of day
I'm curious if anyone has genuine, friendly chats with JWs, where you discuss and learn about each other's beliefs in a respectful way. Does this ever happen?
My mother, who was a member of the Christian Science church, befriended their local JW visitor and they stayed good friends, enjoying the visits until they both grew old. I never understood it, but with hindsight, it was admirable, and I should remember it more often.
There were a few JW families living in the catchment area of the school were I first taught. I remember a boy called Kane who said told me very solemnly, "My Mum's a Jehovah's Witness, but Dad's Samoan".
Every week the Junior School held an Assembly, where amongst other things children stood up if had been their birthday that week and everyone sang Happy Birthday. One of the JW girls used to stand up nearly every week. The other children were mostly kind and didn't challenge her. As JWs don't celebrate birthdays I think she got in a lifetime's supply of the song in those two years.
I'm curious if anyone has genuine, friendly chats with JWs, where you discuss and learn about each other's beliefs in a respectful way. Does this ever happen?
When we lived in Georgia a while back a little elderly African American couple of JW's used to canvas our neighborhood about once a week. I worried for them, some of the neighbors were grumpy with them , but mainly because it got up to 100 degrees that summer.
So I started inviting them into the air-conditioning for an iced-tea and a rest. My dog fell in love with the woman and her big tote bag of pamphlets and peppermints so they played and cuddled, but the man felt he needed to be productive and gave me a long lesson each time. I was tempted to argue the (really rather silly) points, but in view of how old they were and their history, he had been a conscientious objector during WWI and suffered lots of hateful prejudice for it, I didn't have the heart to say anything that might shake their faith. They really were just the sweetest people.
I even hesitate to argue with the young Mormon missionaries and I have much more serious gripes with them due to their treatment of women and blacks, because it always seems like if one succeeds in destroying their faith in the LDS church they end up losing all faith rather than switch to a traditional Christian denomination.
Comments
I would advise against these (indeed I'd like to see them banned and a driving hours requirement introduced). They might get you through the test but I cannot believe they will make you a good driver.
Something has to explain the appalling driving I see daily by people who have allegedly passed the test.
Have any of his friends had lessons? If so they may be able to suggest an instructor.
I’m not being mean when I say your son will probably be safer on the road with a professional instructor than he would with you.
As for choosing an instructor, I second the advice from @Huia. Find out who’s got a good reputation for calmness and success.
Would an electric bicycle be an option instead of a car ?
Bite the bullet and pay for lessons. Meanwhile, cast around friends who are good drivers and see if there is one who, if you pay the insurance for them on your car, is prepared to sit in for practice sessions.
Once he's passed his test he'll be tooling about outside of eyeshot. Teaching him yourself will only delay the point at which you start imaging the worst.
I could not teach my daughter; I found that driving is now so instinctive with me (been driving for 37 years) that I could not explain it! Paid lessons were much better for her.
My daughter used an instructor who was recommended by a friend - you could get your son to ask his classmates / Scout friends for recommendations.
Re electric bicycle — he’s thinking about uni in Minnesota, so nope nope nope. Most everybody we know has taught their own kids (or the traditional boyfriend etc) which leaves me floundering. Must do research to find somebody.
" The Driving Book: Everything New Drivers Need to Know but Don't Know to Ask"
I bought this book for my grand-daughter when she learned to drive, and she told me that she loves it and found it very helpful. It was $10.00 on Amazon. She is a very good driver as reported by her father who did practice trips with her after a professional did the teaching. Good Luck to your son.
For what it is worth Mr Image tried to teach me to drive a stick. I already knew how to drive, but had only driven an automatic. After his first lesson, I got up in the middle of the night, took the car out and taught myself. It saved our marriage.
Fast forward to her 18 th and she gets a car, having passed her test first time. Six months later, her car being fitted with a black box, the insurance company bumps up the premium as the box recorded her as doing 103 mph. Not long after, she crashes into another vehicle, though inattention, and her car is a write-off. As she needs a car to get to college ( really? ) her parents have made her use her savings to buy a new one( savings to which I had contributed) . Insurance is of course through the roof.
Keep teenagers off the road!
I think that you should ask about dual control and who accredits the driving instructors. The Government is the accrediting body in the UK.
If he doesn't click with an instructor there is no harm in not booking more lessons and looking for a different one, either in a group or completely separate.
Do any instructors advertise at your son's college? I know licencing is a bit different in the states.
Just in case you haven't thought of this yet: check the yellow pages (in whatever form they are there, print or online) for places that specialize in beginners, nervous students, etc.
Also: when it's time for the driving part of the license test, some wise instructors take students to a DMV office in a low-traffic area, even in another town. Fewer problems to deal with during the test.
I think there are websites with driving instruction and practice. Some might be free. That could at least get your kid started and learning.
FWIW, YMMV. Good luck!
Recently, I've been buying a few items from a number of UK country clothing stores online, over here in Continental WesShire. Most of these were quite efficient and with helpful, friendly customer service staff, if they ever need to be got in touch with.
One particular poor example of customer service I've found to be with Fifecountry.co.uk, who never reply to my e-mail enquiries, or only if I send them a second e-mail. They may react when I ring them, but occasionally I want things done in writing.
In addition, they never even notify you when your parcel is ready for shipping; which means: I order, pay online, they confirm the order... and total radio silence till several days later when the parcel finally gets here! So I have no clue if there is a delay due to items out of stock, or any other reasons. (On the very positive side, there are other UK-based shops who send you a tracking number, or who at least tell you when the items have left their store. Those are reliable, and get me the customer service I think I deserve in this day and age.)
Fifecountry (and the manufacturer Hoggs of Fife) apparently were founded in 1888, with a mail order business right from Day 1, but possibly have never arrived in the 20th, let alone the 21st century!
Question: Have any of you got any experience with Fifecountry? They're as dour as dour gets. IMO.
I guess I could come up with some rather acerbic remarks, given time to think, but these don't belong here. - I think your reply was very appropriate and humane.
Tell them you're Roman Catholic: they'll think you're beyond saving and beat a hasty retreat.
I just quickly say, in a friendly way, 'Oh, you're Jehovah's Witnesses, aren't you?' and they say 'Yes.' And I say, with a smile, 'I'm not interested in that, but thank you for your concern.' They seem to like that - they smile back, look a bit relieved, and say 'Okay, thank you for opening the door,' and then they leave, and we part on friendly terms, because we've both thanked each other. It's a very quick way to get them to go. I have said things in the past which weren't so welcome - not deliberately rude, but wrong tone, or not soft wording, and I could see in their faces it wasn't the best thing to say, but now the way I do it is well-received.
I just explain I was confirmed Roman Catholic. It’s quicker and a Hail Mary usually does the trick.
ROTFL! Is the reference to occultist Alistair Crowley?
We certainly hope so.
The other alternative is to tell them you’ve had a blood transfusion.
I would actually quite enjoy chatting to a JW about their beliefs and culture, simply to find out more, from curiosity. When the Mormons came round, they were so open and sincere (plus it was pouring with rain outside) that I invited them in and I was fascinated to hear about the Mormon lifestyle. The JWs round here often tend to have a sort of fear and defensiveness about them though, and so I don't think either I or they would enjoy a chat! But when I was working agency shifts in care homes, I once worked with a young woman who was an ex-JW - she had a more unusual biblical name, so I asked if she'd been named from the Bible, and she was surprised I knew the name, so the conversation arose from that. She was very open, so I asked her lots of questions and it was very interesting. I asked her about the elect and other things. She was actually very positive about the JW community, even though she and her parents had been kicked out - she said it was a lovely upbringing, being part of a bigger community that cared for each other.
I'm curious if anyone has genuine, friendly chats with JWs, where you discuss and learn about each other's beliefs in a respectful way. Does this ever happen?
She learned this at the feet of my father-in-law. One anecdote from his day is that he went to JW Bible study. When they all got out their Watchtowers, he made to leave: "oh, I thought we were studying the Bible!". "Why, how do you study the Bible?" Result: he lead the JW Bible study group for several months before being found out by the hierarchy.
My observation is also that the less JWs are treated like a cult in a country, the less they behave like one. The difference between how they go down in France and in the UK, and in how they respond, is notable.
I think it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that JWs stop being heterodox. They are very close to dispensationalist evangelicals in many ways, and there is precedent for groups returning massively to orthodoxy: the Christadelphians are a UK example.
*So ardent, the last we saw of her she was moving across the country to marry, sight unseen, a man her "spiritual mother" wanted her to. She quit her job, sold her house and car, and even gave away her two dogs. I've often wondered how that worked out.
My late Granddad managed this. L & M visited him weekly for over a year, chatting in the hall rather than the living room, but always on a friendly basis. They swapped church anecdotes and family news. When he died they didn't feel like they could attend the service, but stood by the side of the road outside the cemetery as the hearse went past. I still see L working in the supermarket occasionally and we pass the time of day
Every week the Junior School held an Assembly, where amongst other things children stood up if had been their birthday that week and everyone sang Happy Birthday. One of the JW girls used to stand up nearly every week. The other children were mostly kind and didn't challenge her. As JWs don't celebrate birthdays I think she got in a lifetime's supply of the song in those two years.
So I started inviting them into the air-conditioning for an iced-tea and a rest. My dog fell in love with the woman and her big tote bag of pamphlets and peppermints so they played and cuddled, but the man felt he needed to be productive and gave me a long lesson each time. I was tempted to argue the (really rather silly) points, but in view of how old they were and their history, he had been a conscientious objector during WWI and suffered lots of hateful prejudice for it, I didn't have the heart to say anything that might shake their faith. They really were just the sweetest people.
I even hesitate to argue with the young Mormon missionaries and I have much more serious gripes with them due to their treatment of women and blacks, because it always seems like if one succeeds in destroying their faith in the LDS church they end up losing all faith rather than switch to a traditional Christian denomination.