Altar Servers

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  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    edited March 2020
    angloid wrote: »
    Many Anglicans have taken on board the post-Vatican 2 practice, and will prefer concelebration over a priest taking the deacon's role. It seems neat and tidy, but I am less and less convinced about the theology. A priest isn't just a former deacon: ordination to the priesthood does not eradicate the diaconate IMHO. Any more than any clergy person ceases to be a member of the Laos or people of God. And just as it doesn't make sense to have a multitude of deacons swanning around the sanctuary, it doesn't make much sense either to have more than one vested priest. The whole congregation are 'concelebrants'; the role of the priest is to focus their offering by presiding over the whole celebration, and you can only have one president at a time.

    Absolutely. There was one paterfamilias in the upper room, and the presider's task inter alia is to re-present his actions. A friggin' rugby scrum of scruffy also-rans is as ugly a dramatic act as it would be if half a dozen or more MacDuffs sauntered around nuking Macbeth.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Angus wrote: »
    My daughters, 13 and 10, are both servers. They describe their most vital functions as stopping the Priest setting his robes on fire and ensuring that he has his glasses or holding liturgy books at the correct viewing distance...

    That's good of them, but surely not proper practice. Those are tasks for the sub-deacon.

    The deacon's role if the celebrant be a bishop, but in my experience I have found that the roles of acolyte and subdeacon can flow together rather easily.

    At Our Lady Joy of All Who Procrastinate the server is usually in cotta/surplice and cassock, but I have been drafted in wearing my civvies at low masses, owing to years of keeping one sort of minister (of the Crown) from going off the rails, evidently I can do it for the other sort.

    Over the years I have seen the acolyte both cassocked and not, and whether or not it clericalizes and ossifies the clergy/laity divide really depends on the luggage the observer brings into the room.

    Fans of the subdiaconate might be interested in knowing that there is at least one subdeacon wandering around the Church of Ireland when I last heard, having been ordered as such in the former Rhodesia, and never having proceeded further in the ordination route.

    There is one Sydney parish to which the Abp appointed a bishop as rector. It used be one of the leading parishes in Oz under the previous rector. Alas, it has gone down the candle and downhill since. We visit occasionally to catch up with friends. Next time we're there, I'll look out and see whether the practice you describe is implemented.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Those bits that trace their ancestry through the western side of the Great Schism rather than one of the Orthodox traditions, but excluding the Eastern Rite Catholics as I understand they retain the subdiaconate.

    I suppose it's difficult to categorise those of us who are Western Orthodox. We trace our liturgical and spiritual ancestry from our ancestors in the faith in the pre-schism west, but received more directly from those who preserved the Orthodox heritage in the east post-schism. We certainly consider ourselves to be part of the western Church. I suppose as we aren't plentiful we might fly below most people's radar, but our subdeacons exist, (I was one until last September).
  • Gee D wrote: »
    [
    There is one Sydney parish to which the Abp appointed a bishop as rector. It used be one of the leading parishes in Oz under the previous rector. Alas, it has gone down the candle and downhill since. We visit occasionally to catch up with friends. Next time we're there, I'll look out and see whether the practice you describe is implemented.

    Fr Mandarin is a retired bishop. Other than wearing a pectoral cross and a purple zuccheto and cincture, the only noticeable difference if he take a service is that he gives the blessing by making 3 crosses in the air. He only goes into 'pointy hat' mode when we have a visiting bishop, or he is acting in his 'Society' bishop role.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    He makes the sign of the Cross!!!! I was told that the bishop I described had to be persuaded just to hold his hand up at the Absolution and the Blessing, let alone make the sign.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    St Quacks is rather 'I can't believe it's not Roman', so kind of the opposite end of the spectrum from Sydney.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    He makes the sign of the Cross!!!! I was told that the bishop I described had to be persuaded just to hold his hand up at the Absolution and the Blessing, let alone make the sign.

    I remember my regional bishop in Melbourne, when I was a curate, obviously had a sense that his hands wanted to do something when he was giving the blessing, but knew equally that any twitch of his arm might be a salute to papery and the devil. He used to clutch his miscreant arm with its counterpart, desperately trying to ensure it remained firmly near his groin.

  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    My wife says my usual reaction to anyone suggesting concelebration is the closest to 'the resting bitch face' that she has ever seen on a male of the species. I am not quite sure why I react that way as academically I get it, but emotionally I cannot get past the fact that when Anglicans concelebrate it usually looks like a total dog's breakfast, and I prefer the traditional celebrant, deacon, sub-deacon arrangement.

    In this diocese, celebrating with help will usually be either priest and reader playing lion and unicorn, or the usual eastward facing priest and server low celebration. About the only time there is a Communion with multiple assistants is diocesan council. In my old parish, which was a bit higher than St Oddball's we could only scrape up enough servers for a Gospel procession at Christmas, Easter, and Whitsunday. OTOH, I nearly always had one assistant when celebrating, and being self-service was so rare I think I used to write 'no server!' in the comments column.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Zappa wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    He makes the sign of the Cross!!!! I was told that the bishop I described had to be persuaded just to hold his hand up at the Absolution and the Blessing, let alone make the sign.

    I remember my regional bishop in Melbourne, when I was a curate, obviously had a sense that his hands wanted to do something when he was giving the blessing, but knew equally that any twitch of his arm might be a salute to papery and the devil. He used to clutch his miscreant arm with its counterpart, desperately trying to ensure it remained firmly near his groin.

    The old Low Church thing around where I lived was for the priest to raise the right, or both arms at the blessing - the holding on to the family jewels approach would have been considered excessive.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Zappa wrote: »
    He used to clutch his miscreant arm with its counterpart, desperately trying to ensure it remained firmly near his groin.

    Did he think that playing with himself would be more acceptable?

    Pendragon - my tagline on the old ship was that not everyone in Sydney was a Sydney Anglican. That's still true, but the Abp has done his best to change things.
  • PDR wrote: »
    My wife says my usual reaction to anyone suggesting concelebration is the closest to 'the resting bitch face' that she has ever seen on a male of the species. I am not quite sure why I react that way as academically I get it, but emotionally I cannot get past the fact that when Anglicans concelebrate it usually looks like a total dog's breakfast, and I prefer the traditional celebrant, deacon, sub-deacon arrangement.

    I have the same kind of reaction when Anglican colleagues start complaining about how few concelebrations they see or take part in. I get it, I suppose. But I just don't 'feel' it, and maybe I really don't understand what's supposed to be going on. But to me it's just mucking about with a formula that already works well enough with one chief, and at least one indian to help with the table stuff. From the congregational side it looks confusing at best, and like a fight at a clergy-conference at worst, in my opinion.
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    Anselmina wrote: »
    I have the same kind of reaction when Anglican colleagues start complaining about how few concelebrations they see or take part in. I get it, I suppose. But I just don't 'feel' it, and maybe I really don't understand what's supposed to be going on. But to me it's just mucking about with a formula that already works well enough with one chief, and at least one indian to help with the table stuff. From the congregational side it looks confusing at best, and like a fight at a clergy-conference at worst, in my opinion.

    One local parish has a large contingent of both stipendiary and non-stipendiary priests, and used to have large concelebrations quite often. It looked like a wall-o'-chasubles to me. With a new rector, I think that has stopped and they now have a solemn Mass with three scared monsters, er, sacred ministers.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Pendragon - my tagline on the old ship was that not everyone in Sydney was a Sydney Anglican. That's still true, but the Abp has done his best to change things.
    I did laugh when having read this, I was flicking through the Church Times vacancies page to find ads looking for A-C priests for Brisbane and Sydney!

    St Quacks is in a very liberal evangelical diocese but the Powers That Be currently are more supportive of our being the opposite end of the candle than some of their predecessors.

    Because we have an eastward facing, against the wall, high altar, and no nave one, anymore than 4, 6 at a push, concelebrants would not fit. We can just about fit the local Society Fathers in for the Triduum services, but when we've hosted big events the rest of the clergy have taken over the choir stalls.

    When we had the confirmation service last year, Fr Duck didn't concelebrate, just the bishops, which led to the sighting of that lesser spotted garment from the vestry cupboards, a green cope!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Pendragon wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Pendragon - my tagline on the old ship was that not everyone in Sydney was a Sydney Anglican. That's still true, but the Abp has done his best to change things.
    I did laugh when having read this, I was flicking through the Church Times vacancies page to find ads looking for A-C priests for Brisbane and Sydney!

    When we had the confirmation service last year, Fr Duck didn't concelebrate, just the bishops, which led to the sighting of that lesser spotted garment from the vestry cupboards, a green cope!

    Not sure where you're from. Brisbane is the opposite to Sydney - a few low and evangelical churches, the rest catholic.

    Copes are common in MOTR to high Anglican churches in Sydney, chasubles still being banned.
  • Mid UK, although I am a southerner by upbringing. I do have relatives in Oz though, spread out from Brisbane. The Church Times is the weekly newspaper that reports on the CofE and other Anglican goings on.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    You would expect a search for A-C priests in Brisbane. I know of one such parish in Sydney that is looking for a new rector. A real worry will be that the Abp (probably ++Glenn's successor) will simply let them run out of time to nominate and then make his (being Sydney it will be his) own appointment.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Brisbane used to have a reputation for being MOTR-leaning-catholic, but that would be going back a bit now. I assume that it has gone pretty liberal now, which is what MOTR-leaning-catholic places have tended to do over the past 30 years.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    pretty much, yes
  • Barnabas_AusBarnabas_Aus Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Gee D wrote: »
    You would expect a search for A-C priests in Brisbane. I know of one such parish in Sydney that is looking for a new rector. A real worry will be that the Abp (probably ++Glenn's successor) will simply let them run out of time to nominate and then make his (being Sydney it will be his) own appointment.

    That Sydney parish is one of the two ads in the Church Times. The other is the Brisbane parish from which a former rector was consecrated a bishop in the Anglican Catholic Church, and which describes itself in the ad as a shrine church.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I shall look, thanks for the guidance. I was chatting yesterday to one of the parishioners in Sydney (about a totally non-church-related topic) and mentioned the experience of another Sydney parish where just the procedure I mentioned seems to have been adopted. And of course, there's nothing a parish can do about it.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    You would expect a search for A-C priests in Brisbane. I know of one such parish in Sydney that is looking for a new rector. A real worry will be that the Abp (probably ++Glenn's successor) will simply let them run out of time to nominate and then make his (being Sydney it will be his) own appointment.

    That Sydney parish is one of the two ads in the Church Times. The other is the Brisbane parish from which a former rector was consecrated a bishop in the Anglican Catholic Church, and which describes itself in the ad as a shrine church.

    It comes, or used to, with an interesting rectory. Don't apply if you have pets (or height phobia).
  • EvangelineEvangeline Shipmate Posts: 27
    Gee D wrote: »
    I shall look, thanks for the guidance. I was chatting yesterday to one of the parishioners in Sydney (about a totally non-church-related topic) and mentioned the experience of another Sydney parish where just the procedure I mentioned seems to have been adopted. And of course, there's nothing a parish can do about it.

    Only medium to long term strategy I can see is putting up candidates for ordination -through Moore College of course. An AC parish I know has had 3 ordinands over last 3 years but 2 have pursued ordination in other dioceses and through other academic institutions. Between them the stole parishes need to get some men (and women but it would be difficult to keep women who could be ordained in other places to be kids and women's workers) ordained through Moore. We need an AC MTS!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    At least if they have their Moore College degree, they'll also have done the necessary biblical Greek. ++Glenn used the lack of that as a means of weeding out recommendations. A couple of those recommended were given appointment on the basis that they finish the Greek course within 2 years - pretty hard work for a man learning a new parish, and perhaps with a young family to help care for.

  • EvangelineEvangeline Shipmate Posts: 27
    Well yes exactly! Is the current vacancy being discussed the one just down the road from our former schools?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I think so. Prospects look grim.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Can I go back to your comments about the role of women? ++Glenn has made it clear that if a woman who has been ordained as a priest comes to Sydney, he will (subject to the usual tests) license her as a deacon and it's then a matter for the rector and parish council to decide just what role she performs. He will not take action to stop her acting as the priest she is. There are problems with that of course; it means that her role is up to a man to decide in the first instance, but it is a start. Who knows what any new Abp will permit.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    That Sydney parish is one of the two ads in the Church Times. The other is the Brisbane parish from which a former rector was consecrated a bishop in the Anglican Catholic Church, and which describes itself in the ad as a shrine church.
    What does it mean by a 'shrine church'? Does it mean it has a valuable relic or that it expects people to come on pilgrimage to it from distant places, venerate someone/thing and then go home, and has no real regular congregation, regular rhythm Sunday by Sunday, parish life or local residents? Or does it mean something completely different.

    Apart from Walsingham, where, incidentally there's also a quite separate parish church at the other end of the village, I can't offhand think of a church in England that one could really describe as a shrine church.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Not shrine in that sense, but in the sense of a leading church of that denomination.
  • EvangelineEvangeline Shipmate Posts: 27
    Gee D wrote: »
    Can I go back to your comments about the role of women? ++Glenn has made it clear that if a woman who has been ordained as a priest comes to Sydney, he will (subject to the usual tests) license her as a deacon and it's then a matter for the rector and parish council to decide just what role she performs. He will not take action to stop her acting as the priest she is. There are problems with that of course; it means that her role is up to a man to decide in the first instance, but it is a start. Who knows what any new Abp will permit.

    Yes, one thing is for sure she is never going to be a Rector in Sydney, so she will find a very limited number of options for full-time employment if she is called to Parish ministry. More importantly, if you are a woman called to ordained Parish ministry I can't imagine too many roles open to you that wouldn't amount to squandering your talents (in the Biblical sense).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Yes, you need a parish accepting that women have as valid a role in ministry as do men, with sufficient funds to employ someone full-time as a curate/assistant. I'm not going to go down the line that it would suit a woman with child-caring responsibilities........
  • EvangelineEvangeline Shipmate Posts: 27
    edited March 2020
    Gee D wrote: »
    Yes, you need a parish accepting that women have as valid a role in ministry as do men, with sufficient funds to employ someone full-time as a curate/assistant. I'm not going to go down the line that it would suit a woman with child-caring responsibilities........

    The part-time women and children's ministry positions cater to that although they vary I know some women who were exploited by those positions, paid a bare minimum for the hours they taught SRE, were at Playgroup and Sunday School-no payment or entirely inadequate time for preparation and all the extra ministry follow-up etc. Imagine a Rector being expected to prepare his sermon and Bible studies in unpaid time-we might as well reduce all Rectors' hours to about 24 hours per week. That said the Parishes I have been at have been very generous in time allowed for ministry preparation etc for employed staff. Like everywhere there are good and bad places to work.

    There are very few Parishes that fit your description-maybe 10. I knpw a Parish who were pretty desperate for an assistant Priest but they're high & couldn't entertain the idea of an ordained women as only Priests can preside & unfair burden on male staff if FT assistant can't take communion services. There's always a reason...
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    We'd be happy with a woman as the Rector and can see no credible reason against it. Happy with a woman as full time associate as well. But I doubt that the funds would run to that, so it may have to be part-time.
  • EvangelineEvangeline Shipmate Posts: 27
    Gee D wrote: »
    We'd be happy with a woman as the Rector and can see no credible reason against it. Happy with a woman as full time associate as well. But I doubt that the funds would run to that, so it may have to be part-time.

    You might be, the Abp. wouldn't appoint a woman as Rector though-even a woman who has been priested elsewhere, Associate yes but that's really up to the Priest, so long as the woman can be licensed. I know women Priests who won't be Deaconed in Sydney because it is demeaning and in a sense undermines their orders elsewhere, I can understand where there're coming from.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Unfortunately you're right - no way would the Abp appoint one - but no harm in wishing. I can certainly understand that attitude.
  • DrSLDrSL Shipmate Posts: 5
    I agree with the Dean of Exeter concerning altar servers. At a low Mass two are essential but, at High Mass, particularly in a large building, there are jobs for a crucifer, thurifer and boat boy, acolytes and MC. When we had a visit from our Archbishop this was supplemented by a second crucifer carrying the Metropolitan Cross in front of His Grace.

    As an aside, when, at 'High' Mass, in a certain well-known Cathedral in Northern France one summer holiday quite a number of years ago my second son, the MC in our local Cathedral, whispered to me as we were leaving "If I had been the celebrant I would have stuck my boot up that altar boy's a****"

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