I'm slightly puzzled when people *automatically* assume that "Chinese virus" is racist. The flu in a horrible epidemic about 100 years ago was dubbed "Spanish flu". Maybe that was meant as racist, but I've never heard so. Also "German measles" (rubella).
Leaving aside whether ascribing a disease a nationality and/or ethnicity is racist and plays into well-know tropes of disliked ethnic groups as disease-ridden vermin, such names are counterproductive on a practical level. Dubbing a disease "the Spanish flu" actually misdirected a lot of effort and vigilance based on the false assumption that Spain was the center of contagion. (I don't know if the same is true of the "German measles", but it wouldn't surprise me.)
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
Why doesn't Trump use the normal description like everyone else? Whenever Trump uses language different to any other leader, he's playing politics. And normally pandering to racists. Why should this be any different?
I'm slightly puzzled when people *automatically* assume that "Chinese virus" is racist. The flu in a horrible epidemic about 100 years ago was dubbed "Spanish flu". Maybe that was meant as racist, but I've never heard so. Also "German measles" (rubella).
I don't use the term T used. And he says/does all sorts of horrible, racist things. But naming a disease after the place where it's thought to have started is pretty normal, AIUI.
Point of fact, the influenza of 1918 started at Ft Dix, Kansas when a cook first came down with it. Yes, we know who started it. It spread from American to Europe when the troops at Ft Dix were shipped to Europe during WWI. Allied censors, though, sought to keep it quiet because of the war effort. Spain, though, was neutral and not subject to censorship. Their reporters were free to report on this new flu that was impacting their country.
Likewise, with German measles. It got that name because of three German physicians were the first ones to describe the disease. Another thought is the original name for rubella (which means little red), was germane (ie, little) measles.
Are you aware that Chinese and Asian people in general were subjected to abuse before he called it this. Are you also aware that Asian people have distinct physical appearance features which can result in them being specifically targetted? And that the WHO has previously come out with advice to not label it such because of the inevitable discrimination and stigmatization.
I understand your argument, but if you look at German person or a Spanish person - well go ahead and tell me how you'd know who was who. What are the markers which would allow for group targetting? We don't call Down's Syndrome mongolism anymore do we?
This man knows exactly what he's doing and he chose his words deliberately. He's appealing to his base. Do a search for Chinese discrimination covid or similar and see what you find. And you'll also find that the articles of racist abuse against Chinese people started by at least January 2020.
I'm slightly puzzled when people *automatically* assume that "Chinese virus" is racist. The flu in a horrible epidemic about 100 years ago was dubbed "Spanish flu". Maybe that was meant as racist, but I've never heard so. Also "German measles" (rubella).
I don't use the term T used. And he says/does all sorts of horrible, racist things. But naming a disease after the place where it's thought to have started is pretty normal, AIUI.
My concern is not about blaming T. It's people *automatically* assuming that the term is racist, when other diseases have been similarly named. (Not particularly here, but in general.) When I was a kid, the term "German measles" was still in use, and it didn't seem to be racist. As I wrote that post, though, it did occur me that it might be called that because of resentment against the Germany re wars.
I'm aware of anti-Chinese and anti-Asian discrimination, both historic and current. It was and is horrible.
I haven't personally used the term "Chinese virus" at all. It didn't occur to me. But I could have casually used it, due to the examples I mentioned. (IIRC, there are many others.)
I said I am "slightly puzzled", and that's what I meant. I also said "Maybe that was meant as racist, but I've never heard so." re Spanish flu and German measles, and that's what I meant. I was just trying to figure that out.
Trump's not naming the virus. He's re-naming it after the entire world medical community has named it. Why would he do such a thing? One reason stands out as probable.
German = white people.
Chinese = not white people.
German is a nationality.
Chinese, and other Asian is defined as race.
Consider if we called HIV - AIDS the "gay disease". Which of course we kind of did. And how'd that go?
We haven't gotten around to evangelical TV people calling this virus judgement on ther Chinese for being atheist most probably because the infection rate there is in control, unlike, particularly the UK. Which the CBC discussed today as ideological, not data-driven and responsible for the acceleration of cases there.
We haven't gotten around to evangelical TV people calling this virus judgement on ther Chinese for being atheist
The thought did occur to me that it's judgment on the USA not only for electing you-know-who but for failing to impeach him when we had the chance. Also judgment on the world for kissing his fat bottom instead of denouncing him for the fraud that he is.
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
The thought did occur to me that it's judgment on the USA not only for electing you-know-who but for failing to impeach him when we had the chance. Also judgment on the world for kissing his fat bottom instead of denouncing him for the fraud that he is.
Problem with that theory is that Iran has definitely NOT kissed his fat bottom.
Germany is mostly white, and in the USA (where the Resident is), is seen as a white country. China is mostly Chinese (although not all Han ethnicity), and even views Chinese-Americans who visit to be Chinese nationals. Talking about race is not racist.
Calling this the Chinese flu, as Resident Trumpf did, is a dogwhistle to racists. I'm really happy that people on this forum do not recognize that dogwhistle. However, I assure you that the MAGA crowd knows exactly what it means, and they will hide behind your "but it's not racist" excuse as fast as they can. That's what a dogwhistle is for.
Calling this the Chinese flu, as Resident Trumpf did, is a dogwhistle to racists. I'm really happy that people on this forum do not recognize that dogwhistle. However, I assure you that the MAGA crowd knows exactly what it means, and they will hide behind your "but it's not racist" excuse as fast as they can. That's what a dogwhistle is for.
The modern Republican party mostly functions by demonization. It's hard to demonize an invisible enemy like a virus, but it's very easy to dust off all the old Yellow Peril tropes.
As I understand it, Germany is (traditionally) not just a nationality. There are two German races: Nordic (blond hair, blue eyes) and Aryan (brown hair, brown eyes, and related to the top caste of India).
(How the angry guy with the weird mustache got away with calling a Nordic "ideal" appearance "Aryan"...)
And modern Germany seems to be really uncomfortable with people of other backgrounds becoming citizens or permanent residents. AIUI, that's been an issue with guest workers, too.
Germany is mostly white, and in the USA (where the Resident is), is seen as a white country.
And they are wrong about it being a "white country".
So you get morons, just as many Dems as right wingers, from the States who insist that they are "German" because their great-great-grandfather was German. They don't speak a word, never been there either. But when a delegation from Germany comes over, including an 2nd generation German [ Nationality ] who happens to be Asian, they refuse to believe that she can be German and want to know what she is really. Honestly, every other (real) German aka the delegation thinks the "Germans" are douchebags.
German isn't a race it's a nationality.
Spanish isn't a race it's a nationality.
Irish isn't a race it's a nationality.
"Scotch" isn't a race it's a nationality egg or a drink.
Chinese isn't a race it's a nationality.
As I understand it, Germany is (traditionally) not just a nationality. There are two German races: Nordic (blond hair, blue eyes) and Aryan (brown hair, brown eyes, and related to the top caste of India).
(How the angry guy with the weird mustache got away with calling a Nordic "ideal" appearance "Aryan"...)
And modern Germany seems to be really uncomfortable with people of other backgrounds becoming citizens or permanent residents. AIUI, that's been an issue with guest workers, too.
I'm going to guess that you aren't German and don't know any either?
And modern Germany seems to be really uncomfortable with people of other backgrounds becoming citizens or permanent residents. AIUI, that's been an issue with guest workers, too.
Utter nonsense. Where did you get that information?
My son is a German citizen, his partner is too (from Georgia). They started as guest workers then got residency, then citizenship.
Their close friends are originally French, Portuguese, Kenyan, Australian, Canadian and Indian. All are now German citizens, some are married to Germans and some are married to each other. All have bilingual and trilingual children. My granddaughter will be trilingual (English, Georgian and German). They are absolutely welcomed and part of their community. And so am I when I visit - which is very often. I just got back home to England on Monday and my husband flew out to Germany the day after.
We love it there and every effort we make at speaking German, with people we don’t know, is accepted with grace and friendliness. Even more so with our (many) German friends.
We love it there and every effort we make at speaking German, with people we don’t know, is accepted with grace and friendliness. Even more so with our (many) German friends.
The few times I've been to Germany I have amused the locals with what I remember from my high school German, but my efforts have always seemed to be appreciated. My interactions prove that Germans do indeed have a sense of humor.
Why doesn't Trump use the normal description like everyone else?
Because he's as far from normal as the devil is from the heavenly banquet.
Ahhh, but the Devil fell from Grace. Trump just tried to grab her thingy.
One sad thing about my visit to Israel is that it is difficult to tell whether the people in Jerusalem's market are Arabs or Jews. They are only distinguishable when they wear traditional garb.
One great thing about our most recent trip to America was that every face we saw could be an Australian face. Its only in the last 15 years that could be said, as more people from Africa have immigrated here and become citizens. Here is my favorite song celebrating our diversity. I apply it to the planet, not just Australia. I am, you are we are all human.
--Where did I get the idea about (traditionally) two German races? Possibly from one of my long-ago German teachers who was from Germany. Possibly from text books. Possibly from mainstream news stories or travel shows. Nothing I came up with my own. But it was more than one thing.
I remember being surprised when I heard that real Aryans, as I described, are related to the top caste in India. Given the hellish regime of that angry guy, it was surprising that a) Germans either didn't know that or somehow suppressed it; b) knowingly or not, accepted a group of Germans with that heritage; and c) applied the name of the Aryan-rooted group to the other group--and got away with it.
--No, I'm not German. I don't currently know anyone from Germany in the offline world. I don't know whether I know anyone online, given the nature of the Interwebs.
--This isn't about one racial group (of *any* kind, *anywhere*) being better than anyone else. All races/ethnicities are *absolutely* equal, and all people (of whatever race/ethnicity or other differences) are *absolutely* equal.
--As to modern Germany not being comfortable with long-term immigrants: many news stories over many, many years, specifically saying that. In very mainstream news. Including in the last 20-30 years or so. Guest workers of other ethnicities being frustrated, because it was extremely difficult to get citizenship. Resentment towards large groups of refugees, some years back when European countries were expected to take in refugees. IIRC and AIUI, Angela Merkel spoke very much in favor of welcoming refugees and started doing it--but ran into trouble, because there was a lot of anti-immigrant feeling. IIRC, she had to modify her plans, or back off a little in her statements.
This is why I've periodically said--in other discussions--that if Germany (and other countries) are really that uncomfortable with having foreigners of other ethnicities come in, and pass on that discomfort to the foreigners of other ethnicities, then maybe it would be better for *everyone*--especially the foreign workers--if they just didn't let them in.
And I'm very much aware that my country, the US, tends to be just as bad. ISTM the US is more culpable than Germany, because the US is and always has been a nation of immigrants.
I was listening to the briefing this morning when they asked him why he insists on calling it the Ch
Virus. Of course, he said it came from there. And then he said, "They tried to blame it on American soldiers. You just don't do that."
Good God! This is like a five-year-old claiming someone else did it first.
My five-year-old grandson is more mature than you know who.
--Where did I get the idea about (traditionally) two German races? Possibly from one of my long-ago German teachers who was from Germany. Possibly from text books. Possibly from mainstream news stories or travel shows. Nothing I came up with my own. But it was more than one thing.
I remember being surprised when I heard that real Aryans, as I described, are related to the top caste in India.
Ding-ding-ding-ding . . . this rings faint bells from my undergrad days (more than 50 years ago now) when I took 4 years of German instruction from a weird and terrifying native-born German named Budde (don't recall his first name). He must then have been around 50 -- of an age to have lived through WWII, though I don't know where he spent that time. I do recall he only took attendance on Jewish High Holy Days. I got As, apparently on the blondeness of my hair and the blueness of my eyes, because the amount of German fluency I now retain wouldn't propel a miniature dirt-bike once around the inside of a donut.
@Golden Key your vague memories of school lessons and things you have vaguely seen on the news don’t wash.
I have lived experience.
‘Oh I don’t know you, you’re only on the Interweb.’ is an insult to this wonderful community called the Ship. I’ve shared my photos on here for goodness sake, do you still think me - and my experiences - are not real?
No, I'm not German. I don't currently know anyone from Germany in the offline world. I don't know whether I know anyone online, given the nature of the Interwebs.
So you believe your own prejudice and vague ideas above my experience for the last ten years?
--I didn't deny anyone's experience. Show me where I said that, please.
--As to prejudice: most people have some. I try to be aware of mine, and work on the ones I'm aware of.
--If you're specifically referring to the traditional idea of two German races, that was never about prejudice--mine or anyone else's. There was nothing in my mind, my posts, or in what I heard that said one was better than the other.
--This all started because I'd heard something that didn't make sense to me: people in the world *other than T* saying "Chinese virus", and others *automatically* assuming (and that is what I posted) that was a racist remark. I *asked* why, on this thread, because I knew of other diseases that were named for places. I also said that prejudice *could* be involved with "Spanish flu" and "German measles", but I didn't know of that.
--I was not remotely defending T. Much of what he says/does is very racist.
--I was simply trying to figure out something I didn't understand, so I *asked*.
--If you're referring to what I said about Germans (in general) having a dislike of foreign workers and refugees
who want to stay, that is (as I said) because of many, many mainstream news stories about that.
An example from the German news service Deutsche Welle (DW):
The whole thing is pertinent. In the Q & A, there's this, between the interviewer and Mr. Sofuoglu:
After all these years, many Turks in Germany still don't feel accepted. What is the cause of this?
It's because of this lack of sense of belonging. To think that after 55 years here, some still don't have certain voting rights, that there are still latent forms of everyday racism, that people with Turkish-sounding names have difficulty finding a job or a place to live. In school, too, there are problems if you are from Turkey.
This is mainstream enough that, remembering stories about Turkish guest workers, I searched on "Turkish guest workers Germany", and got many hits with Duck Duck Go. The first page of results starts right away with stories about difficulties, and ill feelings towards the Turks. There are other stories I could quote, but I'd wind up going over the link limit.
The reference was to the refugee crisis in the summer of 2015, when Merkel’s open-border policy allowed almost a million refugees to enter Germany – a decision widely blamed for helping the rightwing, populist and anti-immigrant Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) into the Bundestag in elections last year.
This is part of the mainstream news about that fraught refugee situation. I searched Duck Duck Go on "Merkel refugee crisis". Lots of pertinent hits on the first page.
--I made a point of saying that my country, the US, *does the same sort of thing*, and *is more culpable* because of being a nation of immigrants.
--Boogie, if you've had a better experience, if you have other knowledge, that's great! I was going by what I'd heard in the mainstream news, repeatedly, over decades. I think Shipmates discussed some of this at the time of the 2015 refugee crisis.
But I still think to say ‘Germans in general’ and give a sweeping generalisation about how they feel about/treat foreign works and refugees is prejudiced.
My son’s town had a huge US military base which house 6000 personnel. It closed down, so they gave over the whole base to caring for refugees.
My son, all his friends of many and various nationalities and me, over the ten years he has lived there have had a much much better experience than you describe.
I find the U.K. (government) very unfriendly to refugees and workers from abroad (See Brexshit) and plenty of English people agree with them - they recently voted for them in large numbers.
Germany is streets ahead of us. The whole of the population of the former west Germany still pay a ‘solidarity tax’ to the former East Germany to help them catch up economically, nearly 30 years later.
I remember, some years ago when we did Bed and Breakfast inour house, a young German lad stayed with us. He was really uncomfortable and embarrassed to see a black newscaster on the BBC.
So Pelosi and Schumer are against universal cash payments. Trump will send out the cheques and look like a hero, or he'll run on how the Democrats didn't allow him to respond to the crisis.
You would think they'd be in favor of doubling the amount the fartletter-in-chief suggested, wouldn't you?
That's pretty much Schumer's position. (Haven't found a source for @chrisstiles' claim about Pelosi, but my guess is it's a similar mischaracterization.)
I've heard questions have been raised about whether people on disability, on full disability because they can't work, should get the payout. I can see both sides of that one.
Should there be some sort of needs test before you get it? Like me. I'm on full paid leave, not losing anything so far, in fact I'm saving money by staying home. Should I get a cash payment? I'd sure like one... I'd use it to pay down some credit card debt. But is it fair and just?
You would think they'd be in favor of doubling the amount the fartletter-in-chief suggested, wouldn't you?
That's pretty much Schumer's position. (Haven't found a source for @chrisstiles' claim about Pelosi, but my guess is it's a similar mischaracterization.)
Both of them (see the tail of that article) want to use a means tested system instead (anyone who has been means tested should be able to give an insight as to how much more complex that makes claiming something when you need it)
Should there be some sort of needs test before you get it?
I think that redistribution should happen at the tax and revenue end rather than at the spending end. Needs tests should be cut to a minimum.
Chrisstiles has already referred to the bureaucratic hassle needs tests impose upon claimants. (They also have a bureaucratic cost for administrators.)
Also, means tested benefits are invidious. There will be people who don't quite meet the tests who are tempted to look with resentment upon those who do. (Also people tend to overestimate the size of benefits they don't receive.)
Public benefits such as libraries or health services or pensions that are used by the better off tend to be better defended.
People who do receive benefits may feel stigmatised or failures for having to receive them.
There is also a perverse incentive trap as those who just meet the benefit criteria stand to become worse off when their circumstances improve if they lose the benefits. Trying to mitigate that effect makes the benefits more complicated to administer.
The effects reinforce each other. For example, the invidious nature prompts politicians to impose more stringent or complex tests which are harder for the people who need the benefits to apply for and negotiate.
Benefits should be as universal as feasible. They're due to all citizens as citizens, not as charity cases. The wealthy who don't need them should contribute more rather than receiving less.
Comments
Leaving aside whether ascribing a disease a nationality and/or ethnicity is racist and plays into well-know tropes of disliked ethnic groups as disease-ridden vermin, such names are counterproductive on a practical level. Dubbing a disease "the Spanish flu" actually misdirected a lot of effort and vigilance based on the false assumption that Spain was the center of contagion. (I don't know if the same is true of the "German measles", but it wouldn't surprise me.)
Why doesn't Trump use the normal description like everyone else? Whenever Trump uses language different to any other leader, he's playing politics. And normally pandering to racists. Why should this be any different?
Because he's as far from normal as the devil is from the heavenly banquet.
Thx for the link. Interesting. There's a related article on the same site:
"China Epicenter of 1918 Flu Pandemic, Historian Says
According to new research by a Canadian historian, the 1918 flu outbreak that killed 50 million people originated in China." (History.com)
And there are logical reasons for how it spread.
Point of fact, the influenza of 1918 started at Ft Dix, Kansas when a cook first came down with it. Yes, we know who started it. It spread from American to Europe when the troops at Ft Dix were shipped to Europe during WWI. Allied censors, though, sought to keep it quiet because of the war effort. Spain, though, was neutral and not subject to censorship. Their reporters were free to report on this new flu that was impacting their country.
Likewise, with German measles. It got that name because of three German physicians were the first ones to describe the disease. Another thought is the original name for rubella (which means little red), was germane (ie, little) measles.
Are you aware that Chinese and Asian people in general were subjected to abuse before he called it this. Are you also aware that Asian people have distinct physical appearance features which can result in them being specifically targetted? And that the WHO has previously come out with advice to not label it such because of the inevitable discrimination and stigmatization.
I understand your argument, but if you look at German person or a Spanish person - well go ahead and tell me how you'd know who was who. What are the markers which would allow for group targetting? We don't call Down's Syndrome mongolism anymore do we?
This man knows exactly what he's doing and he chose his words deliberately. He's appealing to his base. Do a search for Chinese discrimination covid or similar and see what you find. And you'll also find that the articles of racist abuse against Chinese people started by at least January 2020.
Here's my original post from page 108:
My concern is not about blaming T. It's people *automatically* assuming that the term is racist, when other diseases have been similarly named. (Not particularly here, but in general.) When I was a kid, the term "German measles" was still in use, and it didn't seem to be racist. As I wrote that post, though, it did occur me that it might be called that because of resentment against the Germany re wars.
I'm aware of anti-Chinese and anti-Asian discrimination, both historic and current. It was and is horrible.
I haven't personally used the term "Chinese virus" at all. It didn't occur to me. But I could have casually used it, due to the examples I mentioned. (IIRC, there are many others.)
I said I am "slightly puzzled", and that's what I meant. I also said "Maybe that was meant as racist, but I've never heard so." re Spanish flu and German measles, and that's what I meant. I was just trying to figure that out.
Chinese = not white people.
German is a nationality.
Chinese, and other Asian is defined as race.
Consider if we called HIV - AIDS the "gay disease". Which of course we kind of did. And how'd that go?
We haven't gotten around to evangelical TV people calling this virus judgement on ther Chinese for being atheist most probably because the infection rate there is in control, unlike, particularly the UK. Which the CBC discussed today as ideological, not data-driven and responsible for the acceleration of cases there.
The thought did occur to me that it's judgment on the USA not only for electing you-know-who but for failing to impeach him when we had the chance. Also judgment on the world for kissing his fat bottom instead of denouncing him for the fraud that he is.
Racist much?
German doesn't equal "white".
Yeah. So it doesn't equal "white".
No, it's a nationality. You can be white Chinese, you can be mixed race Chinese.
Calling this the Chinese flu, as Resident Trumpf did, is a dogwhistle to racists. I'm really happy that people on this forum do not recognize that dogwhistle. However, I assure you that the MAGA crowd knows exactly what it means, and they will hide behind your "but it's not racist" excuse as fast as they can. That's what a dogwhistle is for.
The modern Republican party mostly functions by demonization. It's hard to demonize an invisible enemy like a virus, but it's very easy to dust off all the old Yellow Peril tropes.
As I understand it, Germany is (traditionally) not just a nationality. There are two German races: Nordic (blond hair, blue eyes) and Aryan (brown hair, brown eyes, and related to the top caste of India).
(How the angry guy with the weird mustache got away with calling a Nordic "ideal" appearance "Aryan"...)
And modern Germany seems to be really uncomfortable with people of other backgrounds becoming citizens or permanent residents. AIUI, that's been an issue with guest workers, too.
And they are wrong about it being a "white country".
So you get morons, just as many Dems as right wingers, from the States who insist that they are "German" because their great-great-grandfather was German. They don't speak a word, never been there either. But when a delegation from Germany comes over, including an 2nd generation German [ Nationality ] who happens to be Asian, they refuse to believe that she can be German and want to know what she is really. Honestly, every other (real) German aka the delegation thinks the "Germans" are douchebags.
German isn't a race it's a nationality.
Spanish isn't a race it's a nationality.
Irish isn't a race it's a nationality.
"Scotch" isn't a race it's a nationality egg or a drink.
Chinese isn't a race it's a nationality.
Chinese isn't a race it's a nationality.
I'm going to guess that you aren't German and don't know any either?
Utter nonsense. Where did you get that information?
My son is a German citizen, his partner is too (from Georgia). They started as guest workers then got residency, then citizenship.
Their close friends are originally French, Portuguese, Kenyan, Australian, Canadian and Indian. All are now German citizens, some are married to Germans and some are married to each other. All have bilingual and trilingual children. My granddaughter will be trilingual (English, Georgian and German). They are absolutely welcomed and part of their community. And so am I when I visit - which is very often. I just got back home to England on Monday and my husband flew out to Germany the day after.
We love it there and every effort we make at speaking German, with people we don’t know, is accepted with grace and friendliness. Even more so with our (many) German friends.
The few times I've been to Germany I have amused the locals with what I remember from my high school German, but my efforts have always seemed to be appreciated. My interactions prove that Germans do indeed have a sense of humor.
Ahhh, but the Devil fell from Grace. Trump just tried to grab her thingy.
One sad thing about my visit to Israel is that it is difficult to tell whether the people in Jerusalem's market are Arabs or Jews. They are only distinguishable when they wear traditional garb.
One great thing about our most recent trip to America was that every face we saw could be an Australian face. Its only in the last 15 years that could be said, as more people from Africa have immigrated here and become citizens. Here is my favorite song celebrating our diversity. I apply it to the planet, not just Australia. I am, you are we are all human.
--Where did I get the idea about (traditionally) two German races? Possibly from one of my long-ago German teachers who was from Germany. Possibly from text books. Possibly from mainstream news stories or travel shows. Nothing I came up with my own. But it was more than one thing.
I remember being surprised when I heard that real Aryans, as I described, are related to the top caste in India. Given the hellish regime of that angry guy, it was surprising that a) Germans either didn't know that or somehow suppressed it; b) knowingly or not, accepted a group of Germans with that heritage; and c) applied the name of the Aryan-rooted group to the other group--and got away with it.
--No, I'm not German. I don't currently know anyone from Germany in the offline world. I don't know whether I know anyone online, given the nature of the Interwebs.
--This isn't about one racial group (of *any* kind, *anywhere*) being better than anyone else. All races/ethnicities are *absolutely* equal, and all people (of whatever race/ethnicity or other differences) are *absolutely* equal.
--As to modern Germany not being comfortable with long-term immigrants: many news stories over many, many years, specifically saying that. In very mainstream news. Including in the last 20-30 years or so. Guest workers of other ethnicities being frustrated, because it was extremely difficult to get citizenship. Resentment towards large groups of refugees, some years back when European countries were expected to take in refugees. IIRC and AIUI, Angela Merkel spoke very much in favor of welcoming refugees and started doing it--but ran into trouble, because there was a lot of anti-immigrant feeling. IIRC, she had to modify her plans, or back off a little in her statements.
This is why I've periodically said--in other discussions--that if Germany (and other countries) are really that uncomfortable with having foreigners of other ethnicities come in, and pass on that discomfort to the foreigners of other ethnicities, then maybe it would be better for *everyone*--especially the foreign workers--if they just didn't let them in.
And I'm very much aware that my country, the US, tends to be just as bad. ISTM the US is more culpable than Germany, because the US is and always has been a nation of immigrants.
Virus. Of course, he said it came from there. And then he said, "They tried to blame it on American soldiers. You just don't do that."
Good God! This is like a five-year-old claiming someone else did it first.
My five-year-old grandson is more mature than you know who.
Ding-ding-ding-ding . . . this rings faint bells from my undergrad days (more than 50 years ago now) when I took 4 years of German instruction from a weird and terrifying native-born German named Budde (don't recall his first name). He must then have been around 50 -- of an age to have lived through WWII, though I don't know where he spent that time. I do recall he only took attendance on Jewish High Holy Days. I got As, apparently on the blondeness of my hair and the blueness of my eyes, because the amount of German fluency I now retain wouldn't propel a miniature dirt-bike once around the inside of a donut.
Yikes! My teacher wasn't like that, though. A nice, good person. And had gone through WWII.
I'm sorry you went through that.
Whatever it was I came across that explained about two German races, it didn't say one was better than the other.
I have lived experience.
‘Oh I don’t know you, you’re only on the Interweb.’ is an insult to this wonderful community called the Ship. I’ve shared my photos on here for goodness sake, do you still think me - and my experiences - are not real?
So you believe your own prejudice and vague ideas above my experience for the last ten years?
I don’t know what to say
--I didn't deny anyone's experience. Show me where I said that, please.
--As to prejudice: most people have some. I try to be aware of mine, and work on the ones I'm aware of.
--If you're specifically referring to the traditional idea of two German races, that was never about prejudice--mine or anyone else's. There was nothing in my mind, my posts, or in what I heard that said one was better than the other.
--This all started because I'd heard something that didn't make sense to me: people in the world *other than T* saying "Chinese virus", and others *automatically* assuming (and that is what I posted) that was a racist remark. I *asked* why, on this thread, because I knew of other diseases that were named for places. I also said that prejudice *could* be involved with "Spanish flu" and "German measles", but I didn't know of that.
--I was not remotely defending T. Much of what he says/does is very racist.
--I was simply trying to figure out something I didn't understand, so I *asked*.
--If you're referring to what I said about Germans (in general) having a dislike of foreign workers and refugees
who want to stay, that is (as I said) because of many, many mainstream news stories about that.
An example from the German news service Deutsche Welle (DW):
'Turks in Germany still lack a sense of belonging': It's been 55 years since Germany's recruitment agreement with Turkey. But many Turks still don't feel well integrated, says Gökay Sofuoglu, chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany (TGD)."
The whole thing is pertinent. In the Q & A, there's this, between the interviewer and Mr. Sofuoglu:
This is mainstream enough that, remembering stories about Turkish guest workers, I searched on "Turkish guest workers Germany", and got many hits with Duck Duck Go. The first page of results starts right away with stories about difficulties, and ill feelings towards the Turks. There are other stories I could quote, but I'd wind up going over the link limit.
--From the Guardian, in 2018:
Angela Merkel stands firm as Germany's refugee row intensifies:
Dispute could bring down coalition government, while leaders of France and Italy debate EU immigration policy
This is part of the mainstream news about that fraught refugee situation. I searched Duck Duck Go on "Merkel refugee crisis". Lots of pertinent hits on the first page.
--I made a point of saying that my country, the US, *does the same sort of thing*, and *is more culpable* because of being a nation of immigrants.
--Boogie, if you've had a better experience, if you have other knowledge, that's great! I was going by what I'd heard in the mainstream news, repeatedly, over decades. I think Shipmates discussed some of this at the time of the 2015 refugee crisis.
--If I somehow insulted you, I'm sorry.
But I still think to say ‘Germans in general’ and give a sweeping generalisation about how they feel about/treat foreign works and refugees is prejudiced.
My son’s town had a huge US military base which house 6000 personnel. It closed down, so they gave over the whole base to caring for refugees.
My son, all his friends of many and various nationalities and me, over the ten years he has lived there have had a much much better experience than you describe.
I find the U.K. (government) very unfriendly to refugees and workers from abroad (See Brexshit) and plenty of English people agree with them - they recently voted for them in large numbers.
Germany is streets ahead of us. The whole of the population of the former west Germany still pay a ‘solidarity tax’ to the former East Germany to help them catch up economically, nearly 30 years later.
That's pretty much Schumer's position. (Haven't found a source for @chrisstiles' claim about Pelosi, but my guess is it's a similar mischaracterization.)
Both of them (see the tail of that article) want to use a means tested system instead (anyone who has been means tested should be able to give an insight as to how much more complex that makes claiming something when you need it)
Chrisstiles has already referred to the bureaucratic hassle needs tests impose upon claimants. (They also have a bureaucratic cost for administrators.)
Also, means tested benefits are invidious. There will be people who don't quite meet the tests who are tempted to look with resentment upon those who do. (Also people tend to overestimate the size of benefits they don't receive.)
Public benefits such as libraries or health services or pensions that are used by the better off tend to be better defended.
People who do receive benefits may feel stigmatised or failures for having to receive them.
There is also a perverse incentive trap as those who just meet the benefit criteria stand to become worse off when their circumstances improve if they lose the benefits. Trying to mitigate that effect makes the benefits more complicated to administer.
The effects reinforce each other. For example, the invidious nature prompts politicians to impose more stringent or complex tests which are harder for the people who need the benefits to apply for and negotiate.
Benefits should be as universal as feasible. They're due to all citizens as citizens, not as charity cases. The wealthy who don't need them should contribute more rather than receiving less.