The thing is, SoF is that rare bird on the internet where uninformed blather doesn't get a pass, but gets called on. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts - so if you think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser, you need to have some thing concrete to back that assertion (something other than the Daily Mail, a publication so unreliable even Wikipedia have told their editors to stop citing it).
Telford needs to realise that 'shit or get off the pot' is how we work. Scrolling or disengaging doesn't discourage that except in the very softest terms and, let's face it, none of us are going outside more often.
I appreciate that the optics of the dogpile aren't great. But is it really worse than repeating unsubstantiated rumour or outright lies and us all rolling our eyes and spinning the scroll wheel. I would argue not. A little intellectual rigour and something resembling a backbone are all we ask - passive aggressive 'pity me' stances suggest that there's little substance to Telford's opinions. We don't ask much, but we do ask people to think before posting in Purgatory.
Several recent Hell threads have been attempts to explain to Shipmates rather than dog piles. But the way the Ship works, if polite challenges on threads, as have been happening, change nothing, then the only way the issue can be pursued is in Hell as personal attacks are not allowed outwith Hell.
So although the OP is posted with ire, the message is still clear, that for all of us, posting without backing up our assertions gets us challenged. It means 90% of the time I spend ages backing up the things I want to say if I post in Purgatory and even more so for the sorts of threads that are now in Epiphanies. This sometimes means I don't post at all, because I can't find the information that confirms my idea, and I end up chasing down a rabbit hole and discover something completely different.
If I do get caught in saying something that cannot be backed up with credible sources, then the sensible thing to do is apologise and put my hands up that I've been careless.
Folks can lack any intellectual rigour and still argue sensibly.
Experience is also a good teacher imo. It doesn’t make anything ‘true’ but it often does help to clear the fog. (As I very much hope our PM is discovering right now).
@Telford if after claiming that the UK government had never reversed its covid-19 policy, you were confronted by a link to a direct quote by a cabinet minister stating that it had, you were to acknowledge the mistake instead of playing the victim, you might get on a little better here.
In fairness to Telford, the link was to Jeremy Hunt, who hasn't been a Cabinet minister since Theresa May resigned.
@Telford if after claiming that the UK government had never reversed its covid-19 policy, you were confronted by a link to a direct quote by a cabinet minister stating that it had, you were to acknowledge the mistake instead of playing the victim, you might get on a little better here.
In fairness to Telford, the link was to Jeremy Hunt, who hasn't been a Cabinet minister since Theresa May resigned.
That's true, though he is now Chair of the Health Select Committee with a remit to scrutinise the workings of his former department - so not Right Honourable Random MP either.
Of the three phrases:
Herding Cats
Knitting Fog
Playing Chess with a Pigeon
-I'd argue that the best name for an alternative rock band is Knitting Fog.
Of the three phrases:
Herding Cats
Knitting Fog
Playing Chess with a Pigeon
-I'd argue that the best name for an alternative rock band is Knitting Fog.
Yes, but Playing Chess with a Pigeon is by far the most graphic!
Of the three phrases:
Herding Cats
Knitting Fog
Playing Chess with a Pigeon
-I'd argue that the best name for an alternative rock band is Knitting Fog.
Yes, but Playing Chess with a Pigeon is by far the most graphic!
Could that be the name of the first album? The cover art could be pretty dank*. Envisioning pigeons, statues, droppings....
Can I say something, please? Yes, I was irritated by the way our friend Telford dug in his heels and kept on repeating unsupported assertions. I also recognise that it is extremely unusual for Alan to get so riled.
But - at the risk of being accused of junior hosting or even being called to Hell myself - can I say how upset I've become at the way this thread has gone. I know we're in Hell; but ITSM that people pile on their posts in a way which isn't helpful and can cause real pain. I know that some will say, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", and I know that a lot of us are stressed at the moment and want to find some release.
But I feel that these threads tend to gain a negative life of their own which is tangential to the real issue in play and demeans our life together. In other words, I just want to shout out: "PLEASE STOP!"
Every so often you read a post from someone who is kind, reasonable and worthy of noting. This is one of them.
Can I say something, please? Yes, I was irritated by the way our friend Telford dug in his heels and kept on repeating unsupported assertions. I also recognise that it is extremely unusual for Alan to get so riled.
But - at the risk of being accused of junior hosting or even being called to Hell myself - can I say how upset I've become at the way this thread has gone. I know we're in Hell; but ITSM that people pile on their posts in a way which isn't helpful and can cause real pain. I know that some will say, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", and I know that a lot of us are stressed at the moment and want to find some release.
But I feel that these threads tend to gain a negative life of their own which is tangential to the real issue in play and demeans our life together. In other words, I just want to shout out: "PLEASE STOP!"
Every so often you read a post from someone who is kind, reasonable and worthy of noting. This is one of them.
Well, no. You're obviously moved by the alignment even slightly in your favour - ignoring how this "kind, reasonable, and worthy" person found you super fucking annoying and wrong.
But @Baptist Trainfan's interest is more likely, based on long observation, to be based on concern for who we Shipmates are collectively - divined from how we treat the stupid and foolish. Not actually any positive regard for you, specifically.
Even so, xe is wrong. Hell does have rules regarding decorum, but they are intentionally loose to permit the sort of venting required when amazingly idiotic fuckfaced shit-spewers, such as yourself, are congenitally incapable of interacting in a sensible manner on other, more civilized boards. We dogpile, not because of the pile, but because of the frustration with human limitations that is best to not let fester under polite veneer. Hell is about burning away pleasantries to reveal the truth.
Thank you, @Alan Cresswell . I was this close to starting this thread myself.
@Telford, you only have enemies if you make enemies. There are any number of people on the ship who have conservative theological views. Look at @Lamb Chopped, who is very conservative theologically, but doesn't make enemies left and right and as far as I know has never been called to Hell. Indeed she is looked up to by many on the ship and her contributions are often sought out. Why should that be? It's because she doesn't make an ass of herself. Because when she makes a mistake, she owns it. Because she backs up her assertions with evidence and reasoning. Because she doesn't whine and whimper when someone disagrees.
All things you, too, could learn to do. I've learned how to do all of these things perfectly, ask any shipmate. I exaggerate. But anyway look to her example not mine.
Thank you, @Alan Cresswell . I was this close to starting this thread myself.
You must be gutted that he beat you to it.
The fact is that these type of threads exist just to encourage bullying. The title tells you all you need to know.
My last post in this nasty thread. Feel free to pile it on as I will not be responding.
Translation: La la la la la la I'm not listening, I don't care what you think!
The Ship has various rules but it comes down mostly to Don't be a Jerk! When lots of people are telling you that you're being a jerk, you don't think it's possible that they have a point?
I do think it's worth trying to explain, even in Hell but I may well be wrong about that.
Yep, I was wrong.
@Telford, you are not the first to have the MO, and sadly you won't be the last. It has two steps:
1. Be a jerk
2. When people complain about said jerkiness, play the victim.
What's unusual about you (unique?) is that your jerkiness was of a sufficiently high level to cause Alan to make the Hell-call. That is an achievement (of sorts).
If I came across as saying I was racing anyone to start this thread, that was not my intent and I apologize. I merely meant to say that the thought was bubbling in my head for days and I was glad Alan did it.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
I don't think I've been called to Hell, or called anyone there. However, I was once disagreeing with another Shipmate (blackdog?) and he called himself there because he thought I was about to do so. That was a bit odd.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
Heh. I called RooK to Hell once, when he was bemoaning his virgin state.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
I have dim memories of someone calling everyone to Hell. We aim to be fully inclusive here.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
I have never (personally) been called to Hell. I still don't know if that's a measure of success or failure?
I do think that Hell works extraordinarily well at allowing thorough and rigorous discussion on all the other boards.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
Heh. I called RooK to Hell once, when he was bemoaning his virgin state.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
Heh. I called RooK to Hell once, when he was bemoaning his virgin state.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
Heh. I called RooK to Hell once, when he was bemoaning his virgin state.
It felt good to finally belong.
Still, nothing quite holds a candle to Alan calling Erin to Hell. That was a masterpiece.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
Heh. I called RooK to Hell once, when he was bemoaning his virgin state.
We need links to those masterpieces - the calling of Erin and the calling of God to hell.
MT, Thanks for the kind words. I have in fact been called to Hell once, by JimT, long ago on the vintage Ship. It's an experience everyone should have, right?
Now I feel left out.
Heh. I called RooK to Hell once, when he was bemoaning his virgin state.
We need links to those masterpieces - the calling of Erin and the calling of God to hell.
Comments
Telford needs to realise that 'shit or get off the pot' is how we work. Scrolling or disengaging doesn't discourage that except in the very softest terms and, let's face it, none of us are going outside more often.
I appreciate that the optics of the dogpile aren't great. But is it really worse than repeating unsubstantiated rumour or outright lies and us all rolling our eyes and spinning the scroll wheel. I would argue not. A little intellectual rigour and something resembling a backbone are all we ask - passive aggressive 'pity me' stances suggest that there's little substance to Telford's opinions. We don't ask much, but we do ask people to think before posting in Purgatory.
So although the OP is posted with ire, the message is still clear, that for all of us, posting without backing up our assertions gets us challenged. It means 90% of the time I spend ages backing up the things I want to say if I post in Purgatory and even more so for the sorts of threads that are now in Epiphanies. This sometimes means I don't post at all, because I can't find the information that confirms my idea, and I end up chasing down a rabbit hole and discover something completely different.
If I do get caught in saying something that cannot be backed up with credible sources, then the sensible thing to do is apologise and put my hands up that I've been careless.
Experience is also a good teacher imo. It doesn’t make anything ‘true’ but it often does help to clear the fog. (As I very much hope our PM is discovering right now).
In fairness to Telford, the link was to Jeremy Hunt, who hasn't been a Cabinet minister since Theresa May resigned.
That's true, though he is now Chair of the Health Select Committee with a remit to scrutinise the workings of his former department - so not Right Honourable Random MP either.
Herding Cats
Knitting Fog
Playing Chess with a Pigeon
-I'd argue that the best name for an alternative rock band is Knitting Fog.
Indeed.
However, I've never seen a hell-call spin off a hell-call before... could fun!
Yes, but Playing Chess with a Pigeon is by far the most graphic!
Or not been paying attention...
Could that be the name of the first album? The cover art could be pretty dank*. Envisioning pigeons, statues, droppings....
* I believe "dank" is modern slang for swell.
Every so often you read a post from someone who is kind, reasonable and worthy of noting. This is one of them.
Well, no. You're obviously moved by the alignment even slightly in your favour - ignoring how this "kind, reasonable, and worthy" person found you super fucking annoying and wrong.
But @Baptist Trainfan's interest is more likely, based on long observation, to be based on concern for who we Shipmates are collectively - divined from how we treat the stupid and foolish. Not actually any positive regard for you, specifically.
Even so, xe is wrong. Hell does have rules regarding decorum, but they are intentionally loose to permit the sort of venting required when amazingly idiotic fuckfaced shit-spewers, such as yourself, are congenitally incapable of interacting in a sensible manner on other, more civilized boards. We dogpile, not because of the pile, but because of the frustration with human limitations that is best to not let fester under polite veneer. Hell is about burning away pleasantries to reveal the truth.
Today, the truth is that you suck.
Or, as Bart Simpson said, prove it is possible to suck and blow at the same time.
@Telford, you only have enemies if you make enemies. There are any number of people on the ship who have conservative theological views. Look at @Lamb Chopped, who is very conservative theologically, but doesn't make enemies left and right and as far as I know has never been called to Hell. Indeed she is looked up to by many on the ship and her contributions are often sought out. Why should that be? It's because she doesn't make an ass of herself. Because when she makes a mistake, she owns it. Because she backs up her assertions with evidence and reasoning. Because she doesn't whine and whimper when someone disagrees.
All things you, too, could learn to do. I've learned how to do all of these things perfectly, ask any shipmate. I exaggerate. But anyway look to her example not mine.
You must be gutted that he beat you to it.
The fact is that these type of threads exist just to encourage bullying. The title tells you all you need to know.
My last post in this nasty thread. Feel free to pile it on as I will not be responding.
You don't have to respond. You just have to learn.
No, I thanked him. Try reading for content. For a change.
Translation: La la la la la la I'm not listening, I don't care what you think!
The Ship has various rules but it comes down mostly to Don't be a Jerk! When lots of people are telling you that you're being a jerk, you don't think it's possible that they have a point?
Yep, I was wrong.
@Telford, you are not the first to have the MO, and sadly you won't be the last. It has two steps:
1. Be a jerk
2. When people complain about said jerkiness, play the victim.
What's unusual about you (unique?) is that your jerkiness was of a sufficiently high level to cause Alan to make the Hell-call. That is an achievement (of sorts).
AFZ
But, I didn't get the memo that there's a Hell-call competition, a race to be the first to call someone or calling more people than anyone else.
Use of my old strapline, almost. How did I miss it?
Now I feel left out.
Try teaching a pig to sing
Heh. I called RooK to Hell once, when he was bemoaning his virgin state.
Calling the devil to Hell seems like kind of a coals to Newcastle type move...
I have dim memories of someone calling everyone to Hell. We aim to be fully inclusive here.
I have started quite a few Hell threads about non-shipmates....
I have never (personally) been called to Hell. I still don't know if that's a measure of success or failure?
I do think that Hell works extraordinarily well at allowing thorough and rigorous discussion on all the other boards.
AFZ
South Dakota?
Virginia, surely?
It felt good to finally belong.
Still, nothing quite holds a candle to Alan calling Erin to Hell. That was a masterpiece.
We need links to those masterpieces - the calling of Erin and the calling of God to hell.
Priceless!
Would it be this one?
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000382;p=1
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000243;p=1
AFZ
Though, I also couldn't be bothered to call no one to Hell
I can't find the thread where I was called to Hell. I can't actually remember who called me or why.