God of Concrete, God of Steel

2

Comments

  • I'd be curious on a linguist's take on the difference between "you" and "thee"/"thou"- to my ear, at least, the older language generally bears syllabic stress better than the modern language, such that many older texts don't take well to simple substitution of modern for traditional pronouns.



  • I thought of the new Lord's Prayer as well. In my experience it's only familiar to people who go to church. For passers by it's an unhelpful stumbling block.
  • I thought of the new Lord's Prayer as well. In my experience it's only familiar to people who go to church. For passers by it's an unhelpful stumbling block.

    Though I suppose can be a problem for liturgy generally - something that meaningful for regulars in part because of its complexity could be pretty bewildering for people new to the exercise. We've tried to mitigate this for our High Mass with a fulsome explanatory order of service, but inevitably some people are going to be turned off and want something less involved.

    I think it may not just be a newcomers thing. As a young-ish choirboy I was drawn to intricacies of the old (1962) Canadian Book of Common Prayer, and as a university student there were things that spoke to me about Anglo-Catholic worship as I experienced it long before I tried to get my head around the theology behind it. I think there may be different liturgical sensibilities at work here at all stages of the process.
  • I thought of the new Lord's Prayer as well. In my experience it's only familiar to people who go to church. For passers by it's an unhelpful stumbling block.
    Which is why, if folk want the Lord's Prayer at a funeral or a wedding, I invariably use the traditional version.

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Odd, too, that despite being aimed at sacralising the modern world of industry, it still addresses God as 'thine'.[/quote]I'm trying to think of a better description than odd. The thees, thines and thous have to go as much as possible. You and yours fit easily (save for the odd rhyme) and are the words used in speech these days. The older forms don't set aside church as special but as not a part of the normal world (using "normal" in its strictest sense).
    I'm afraid that hymns re-written to "modernize" the pronouns are one of the things I loath most heartily in the entire world. I have no objection to singing hymns using the more common contemporary forms of pronouns, etc -- as long as they were written that way. But I see no good reason to change well-known and well-loved hymns to introduce new words nobody knows.

    It's always struck me as odd, too, that people only to insist on these modernizations in church. No one objects to Shakespeare being performed in Jacobean English (okay, I'm sure someone objects, because there are all sorts of weirdos out there). But, for some reason, a good number of people seem to think that "Guide me, O thou Great Redeemer" would be improved by replacing the second-personal singular pronoun with "you." More often than not, I am sure, the main motivation is to have something that can be copyrighted.

    I am not for a moment suggesting that hymns need to be written in Early Modern English. But I do strongly object to the idea that older hymns must always be re-written. I also like many example of contemporary architecture, but I wouldn't propose tearing down Amiens Cathedral and rebuilding it in a more contemporary style.

    At least it occasioned one good joke, when someone asked if the Navy Hymn should be rewritten so that the refrain would be "Hear us when we call to you/ For those upon the sea so blue."
    I wasn't commenting on altering old hymns. My point is that this was a new hymn, supposed to sound cool, modern, where-it's-at and with-it. I accept that it was written in Sheffield, but by the time it was written, even in Sheffield only the older generation still naturally used the second person singular. So why, if you're trying to sound cool, modern, where-it's-at and with-it, stick with 'thine'?

    I stand by my 'odd'.

  • It is odd. And it seems to stem from the belief that "Thou/Thou/Thine" are somehow the correct words to use when addressing the Deity, when of course they are merely archaic singular pronoun forms.

    Actually I think that the failure to appreciate this has done harm to the Church in another way, in that injunctions to "you" in the Authorised Version (such as in the Pauline epistles) have been read as comments being made to individual readers, rather than to the body of believers - in other words, as personal when they should be collective.
  • It is odd. And it seems to stem from the belief that "Thou/Thou/Thine" are somehow the correct words to use when addressing the Deity, when of course they are merely archaic singular pronoun forms.

    And the belief that this is the respectful way to address a superior, whereas it is actually the relaxed way of talking to a friend. (I hope I've got that round the right way. @Ruth, can you confirm please?)
  • edited April 2020
    It is odd. And it seems to stem from the belief that "Thou/Thou/Thine" are somehow the correct words to use when addressing the Deity, when of course they are merely archaic singular pronoun forms.

    And the belief that this is the respectful way to address a superior, whereas it is actually the relaxed way of talking to a friend. (I hope I've got that round the right way. @Ruth, can you confirm please?)

    That was broadly true in English "as she was spoke" before about the 17th century. It's still true in the few dialects of English where it's still used (although more commonly pronounced and spelled "tha" than "thou" these days).* It's similar to the German "du," the French and Italian "tu," the Spanis "tú," etc.

    But in the KJV and the BCP, it's simpler than that. The second-person singular is always "thou" in those texts, and "you" is reserved for the plural, with no distinction as to levels of respect. Actually, "you" is reserved for the second person plural accusative. The second person plural nominative is "ye."

    *Allegedly, parents in the North of England are known to tell a child how to use polite language by saying "tha 'thas' that 'thas' tha, and not afore." I hope that's true, because it is wonderful.
  • For those who appreciate concrete and steel church architecture, I hope we don't get to see too much of this sort of thing in the future, as the church crumbles along with the fabric of society:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Peter%27s_Seminary,_Cardross
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    I thought of the new Lord's Prayer as well. In my experience it's only familiar to people who go to church. For passers by it's an unhelpful stumbling block.
    Which is why, if folk want the Lord's Prayer at a funeral or a wedding, I invariably use the traditional version.

    I wonder if this is true of younger generations though (in the UK at any rate)? Whereas most middle-aged people went to schools where the Lord's Prayer (probably the old version) was used daily at assembly, is that in any way true for the 30s and younger? Presumably in church schools it still happens, but in the majority of secular ones, despite the letter of the law, I don't think assemblies have much liturgical content*. I may be wrong of course and simply going on my children's school in the 1990s. [*I nearly said 'not much Christian content', but I think in the matter of values and morality they have much. Just not explicit worship.]

    So there will soon be a majority of the population (maybe already is) for whom the Lord's Prayer in any version is totally unfamiliar.
  • Alas, probably that is all too true - along with any concept of God, Jesus, the Bible etc. etc., all set to become even more alien as the church continues to vanish into historical obscurity.
  • Alas, probably that is all too true - along with any concept of God, Jesus, the Bible etc. etc., all set to become even more alien as the church continues to vanish into historical obscurity.

    Given the role the church has had and the destruction it has caused for the last 1700 years, that is unlikely.

  • Allegedly, parents in the North of England are known to tell a child how to use polite language by saying "tha 'thas' that 'thas' tha, and not afore." I hope that's true, because it is wonderful.

    I suppose the Elizabethan would be "Thou 'thou-est' them that 'thou-est' thee, and not before." Or in the imperative, " 'Thou' thou them that 'thouest' thee..."

    What lovely tongue twisters.
  • As far as I can tell, in the UK if non church goers know anything religious it's the slightly modernised version of the Lord's Prayer (who art). However, this is regarded as dangerously trendy by one of the churches I serve!
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I'm old enough to have learnt the Lord's Prayer, and still instinctively say it, with 'which art' and 'them that'. I'm not a 1662 enthusiast, but all services really were 1662 and nothing else until I was well past formative years.

  • Out of curiosity, when did “which art” become “who art” in the UK? I’m familiar with “which art”, but only because I’ve sung it from UK editions of choir music.
  • I think it's "who art" in the 1928 Prayer Book, but don't know if that was the first time the wording was changed.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    edited April 2020
    It is ‘who art’ in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer from The Episcopal Church (USA), but still ‘which art’ in the English ‘Prayer Book as Proposed’ of the same year.
  • The mystery deepens... :wink:

    The Common Worship Order One Holy Communion service gives the traditional version as an option, but with 'WHO art' and 'THOSE who'. The same is found in the traditional language version of the whole service.

    In the 1662 BCP, we find 'WHICH art' and 'THEM that' in the Lord's Prayer in Morning Prayer/Evening Prayer/The Lord's Supper.
    :confused:

  • BroJames wrote: »
    It is ‘who art’ in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer from The Episcopal Church (USA), but still ‘which art’ in the English ‘Prayer Book as Proposed’ of the same year.

    It's been "who art" in America since the first American BCP in 1789.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I didn’t know that - though looking at it online now it seems that it was still, at that time ‘in earth as it is in heaven’,
  • And what about those pesky Scottish "debts" and "debtors" - not to mention omitting "and ever"!
  • And what about those pesky Scottish "debts" and "debtors"
    You mean the way it is in the Authorized (King James) Version? :wink:

  • Well, he was Scottish.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    edited April 2020
    When I preside BCP occasionally I still "which art" and "them that", , and "in earth," but ... far more important ... when did "bishops and curates" segue into "bishops, priests and deacons" and "indifferently minister" alter to "impartially"? ... but I fear this is a tangent
  • Yes, and worrying about all these changes is keeping me awake o'nights...
    :grimace:
  • We still have bishops and curates here! Another local church says they are BCP, but use 1928. My faithful regard them as sandal wearing hippies.

  • Allegedly, parents in the North of England are known to tell a child how to use polite language by saying "tha 'thas' that 'thas' tha, and not afore." I hope that's true, because it is wonderful.

    I suppose the Elizabethan would be "Thou 'thou-est' them that 'thou-est' thee, and not before." Or in the imperative, " 'Thou' thou them that 'thouest' thee..."

    What lovely tongue twisters.

    Yes, and there's also the probably apocryphal Yorkshire saying 'T i'nt in t'tin,' meaning 'It isn't in the tin.' A tin, of course, is a receptacle made of tin, often called a can elsewhere.

  • Allegedly, parents in the North of England are known to tell a child how to use polite language by saying "tha 'thas' that 'thas' tha, and not afore." I hope that's true, because it is wonderful.

    I suppose the Elizabethan would be "Thou 'thou-est' them that 'thou-est' thee, and not before." Or in the imperative, " 'Thou' thou them that 'thouest' thee..."

    What lovely tongue twisters.

    Yes, and there's also the probably apocryphal Yorkshire saying 'T i'nt in t'tin,' meaning 'It isn't in the tin.' A tin, of course, is a receptacle made of tin, often called a can elsewhere.

    Not so apocyphal I think @Gamma. I can hear my late father-in-law, Darfield-born but over 40 years in Australia, speaking that exact sentence as he looked for something in the shed.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    I had a parishioner who insisited in praying in tongues whenever she had the opportunity, whose glossolalia was exactly t i'nt in t'tin i'nt in t'tint i'nt in t'tint i'nt in t'tint i'nt in t'tint
  • QohelethQoheleth Shipmate
    Back to the OP, the "modern" hymnbook of my youth (Hymns & Songs, 1969) sets GofC to New Horizons by Francis Westbook, but I can only recall using Te Laudant Omnia, which is appropriate.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    In my experience, tha' is only used by the most elderly even in Yorkshire. Generally it's only used by anyone under about 80 to deliberately invoke the sense of First Day Down Pit, Ee, ah'll never forget, we lived seventeen of us in a cardboard box in road, but it were 'ome to us, don't bloody know they're born today...

    Barnsley may be different, but Barnsley is to the rest of Yorkshire as Yorkshire is to the rest of England when it comes to whippets, flat caps and coal in the bath.

    Back in the day Sheffielders were called Dee-dahs owing to an idiosyncratic pronunciation of thee and thou. It remains the only place I know where here rhymes with there and road has two syllables.
  • I can remember hearing older people around Batley and Dewsbury pronouncing road like that in the early 1980s, and 'neet' for 'night' and 'watter' for 'water' and much else that sounded unfeasibly Yorkshire to my ears ... but yes, it was more of a South Yorkshire thing.

    It would seem from Zappa's account that yea verily, 'talkin' broad' is the angelic tongue. And there's me thinking that Welsh was the language of heaven ...

    What has this got to do with the OP? Well, we could have a Barnsley or Sheffield version of the hymn:

    God o' concrete, God o' steel,
    Yank yon' lever, grisp that wheel,
    'T'i'nt in t'tin, tha don't get owt for nowt,
    Pay for th'own ale, it's not my shout,
    Where thee-ar's muck there's brass, it's blood-deh messy,
    Git ahrt o'mah ro-ard tha southern Jessie ...
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    In my experience, tha' is only used by the most elderly even in Yorkshire. Generally it's only used by anyone under about 80 to deliberately invoke the sense of First Day Down Pit, Ee, ah'll never forget, we lived seventeen of us in a cardboard box in road, but it were 'ome to us, don't bloody know they're born today...

    Barnsley may be different, but Barnsley is to the rest of Yorkshire as Yorkshire is to the rest of England when it comes to whippets, flat caps and coal in the bath.

    Back in the day Sheffielders were called Dee-dahs owing to an idiosyncratic pronunciation of thee and thou. It remains the only place I know where here rhymes with there and road has two syllables.

    The most distinctive feature of the Sheffield accent that I have noticed is the exaggerated pronunciation of the long 'ee' and 'oo' vowels. Very deeeeep and smooooth.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    I think “road” may also have two syllables in the Bridgend area.

    When I worked in the main council office there, almost 20 years ago, a woman used to appear at the end of the main room shortly before midday and shout “Trolley!” which was the cue to go and buy snacks. I’m sure the word “trolley”, as she pronounced it, contained about a dozen vowel sounds.
  • What I would say is that there is enough commonality between the South Yorkshire accent and the West Yorkshire accent for locals not to be able to detect the difference when the accent is mild. My accent has been mistaken for educated South Yorkshire by locals while if you know my past it is Educated West Yorkshire at best (in truth it is a hotchpotch of accents the majority of which are Northern or Midlands English)
  • PDRPDR Shipmate

    Allegedly, parents in the North of England are known to tell a child how to use polite language by saying "tha 'thas' that 'thas' tha, and not afore." I hope that's true, because it is wonderful.

    I suppose the Elizabethan would be "Thou 'thou-est' them that 'thou-est' thee, and not before." Or in the imperative, " 'Thou' thou them that 'thouest' thee..."

    What lovely tongue twisters.

    Yes, and there's also the probably apocryphal Yorkshire saying 'T i'nt in t'tin,' meaning 'It isn't in the tin.' A tin, of course, is a receptacle made of tin, often called a can elsewhere.

    Erm - having said those very words, I can assure you it is not as apocryphal as you think...
  • Ok. It's not apocryphal.

    We seem to have digressed onto accents. At the risk of prolonging the tangent I agree with Jengie Jon that there isn't as much discernible difference between mild West Yorkshire and mild South Yorkshire accents these days. I can remember when the Leeds and Bradford accents were noticeably distinct with Pudsey some kind of mid-point between the two - or 'the both' as we'd have said in South Wales.

    And to agree with Aravis that there could be any number of vowel sounds within 'road' in the Bridgend area. KarlLB will correct me if I'm wrong but it would be 'ro-add' in Sheffield but more like 'row-wed' or 'roared' in Bridgend.

    Anyhow -

    'God of concrete, God of steel,
    God of apple-cores and orange peel,
    God of any darn thing we feel
    Will give a hymn contemporary appeal,
    Help us all to mend our ways
    And not use doggerel in praise.'
  • To my mind - and I know it's been mentioned before - the nadir of "modern" hymnody was reached in the song "Autumn Days", where we were enjoined to be thankful for "a "picked-up engine that's been stuttering and stalling" and "jet planes meeting in the air to be refuelled" - evocative imagery for 1960s children, yes, but somehow not things for which we would thank God. (And the latter doesn't appear at all seasonal, anyway!)
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    To my mind - and I know it's been mentioned before - the nadir of "modern" hymnody was reached in the song "Autumn Days", where we were enjoined to be thankful for "a "picked-up engine that's been stuttering and stalling" and "jet planes meeting in the air to be refuelled" - evocative imagery for 1960s children, yes, but somehow not things for which we would thank God. (And the latter doesn't appear at all seasonal, anyway!)

    Why not thank God? Admittedly as you imply it is dated, and jet planes are an environmental problem rather than a delight these days. But any wonder - 'natural', technological, scientific, artistic - is to be celebrated and is a gift of God, even if we often misuse them (that's another debate). And it's a catchy tune.
  • I take your point; and of course the 60s were the time when we revelled in human ingenuity and the idea of "progress". It's the environmental impact I'm most concerned for - and the fact that inflight refuelling has nothing to do with autumn!
  • I'd heard it was intended as a kids' song. It had some unlikely defenders too, if I remember rightly. I remember people whose worship tastes were decidedly not populist saying it was much maligned.

    I think the problem with a lot of this stuff is that it does date very quickly. 'The rich man in his castle / The poor man at his gate / God made them high and lowly / And ordered their estate.'

    Some relatives of mine have found a conducive spiritual home in their local Methodist church - but for the hymns.

    They were expecting rousing Wesleyan stuff but it's all whiney stuff about how privileged we all are and aren't doing enough for [the poor], [the environment], [the poor and the environment] (delete as appropriate).

    As much as I understand and sympathise with the sentiments, I can't really see the point of singing this to each other every Sunday morning.

    'Oh Lord, we've not done this, we've not done that ..'

    Ok, I get that in the context of a liturgical general confession - 'through negligence, through weakness, through our own deliberate fault', but in hymnody?

    To my mind there are two equal and opposite errors in much contemporary hymnody and chorus/worship song-nody. On the one hand you've got the 'Me, me, me,' stuff and Jesus is My Boyfriend business so rightly excoriated on these boards, and on the other you've got bland liberal hymnody which is all about apologising to God for being middle class - like as if that's going to make any difference.

    'Lord, we've not done ...'
    'Well get off your backsides and do it then, don't just come in here and sing about it ...'
  • I think the problem with a lot of this stuff is that it does date very quickly. 'The rich man in his castle / The poor man at his gate / God made them high and lowly / And ordered their estate.'

    Which very likely wasn't intended to mean what most people today think it does (after all, remember how it ended up for the rich man and the poor man in Luke's gospel). But, whatever its intention, it is clumsy and had dated badly enough that Percy Dearmer cut that verse in the English Hymnal in 1906.
  • :lol:

    I remember attending a Methodist church once, many aeons ago, and being disappointed then at not having a single Wesley hymn to bellow out!

    The subjective stuff dates - the objective stuff doesn't, which is perhaps why the ancient Office Hymns (despite some rather archaic translations) still work today.
  • I remember attending a Methodist church once, many aeons ago, and being disappointed then at not having a single Wesley hymn to bellow out!
    Which is why I am disappointed not to have Metrical Psalms on "Songs of Praise" when it comes from Scotland. Are they not sung any more?

  • I've not seen Songs of Praise for a good while, but they did always seem to include Welsh hymns in the minor key whenever it came from Wales, so yes, some Scottish metrical Psalms wouldn't go amiss.

    They did tend to bung in a whishty-whishty tin whistle or a bodhran or something just to make things sound a wee bit more Celtic whenever they were on the Celtic Fringe.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    I'd heard it was intended as a kids' song. It had some unlikely defenders too, if I remember rightly. I remember people whose worship tastes were decidedly not populist saying it was much maligned.
    <snip> ...'

    At least "If I were a butterfly" had good subjunctive grammar and Moltmanian theology
  • I remember attending a Methodist church once, many aeons ago, and being disappointed then at not having a single Wesley hymn to bellow out!
    Which is why I am disappointed not to have Metrical Psalms on "Songs of Praise" when it comes from Scotland. Are they not sung any more?

    I've definitely heard the BBC broadcast a Free Church of Scotland service (in English), which naturally included metrical psalms. Of course, they regularly broadcast services in Gaelic with psalm singing.

    As an aside, I know it's fashionable in the UK to bash the BBC's religion programming. But I have always been, and remain, deeply impressed by its astonishing breadth. Some of the individual programs are perhaps a bit naff (or more than a bit). But it remains remarkable that a national broadcaster in an increasingly secular country continues to broadcast multiple religious services in three languages. Looking at available episodes, I can see offerings from all four of the British Anglican churches (Churches of England and Ireland, the Church in Wales, and the SEC), the Roman Catholics, Baptists, and at least three types of Presbyterians. There are also programs from Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish and Secular Humanist perspectives. There's certainly nothing comparable to that kind of breadth from any American provider or network of providers.
  • I'm not bashing the BBC at all - merely whoever it is that chooses the Scottish hymns. Some years ago my gripe was that SoP was ignoring modern worship songs, and that's no longer true. I also think that it's got more nimble in reacting to current events although I get the impression that they've cut back on the actual recording sessions in recent years.

    I take the point about the Gaelic hymns on (presumably) BBC Alba, we have a Welsh equivalent on S4C here (and very good it is).
  • We almost always have a metrical psalm as our first hymn, though the Church Hymnary (4th edition) is a bit patchy so it's not always possible to offer the lectionary psalm. This results in a game of "match the theme" to find the closest metrical psalm or, failing that, another hymn that features some of that psalm. Our (I suppose I must say former now she's confined to the home following a stroke) organist retained a copy of (I think) CH2 which had divided pages so you could easily mix and match metrical psalms with different tunes.
Sign In or Register to comment.