Toad by name, Toad by nature

245

Comments

  • I can't speak for the rest of you but I don't like being hated. It's happened to me several times in my life and it's frightening.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate

    Caissa wrote: »
    I have had a hard time taking this Hell call seriously. When I read the "offensive" post I chuckled. I must be a dumb Canuck.

    I know! I laughed as soon as I saw someone had called Simon Toad to Hell. I thought what's this? It's impossible to make him mad and if he said anything offensive he was probably kidding.

    I've been so bored lately that I've longed for a good drawn out Hell fight made up of furious people with their heels dug in ready to take the thread to full escalation, burning all bridges behind them.

    We'll have to poke someone much more hot headed than Simon.

    [No I'm not volunteering.]



  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    I can't speak for the rest of you but I don't like being hated. It's happened to me several times in my life and it's frightening.

    This resonates with me.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    I can't speak for the rest of you but I don't like being hated. It's happened to me several times in my life and it's frightening.
    If one reads Simon Toad's posts preceding the one that kicked this off, it is fairly clear that he was reacting to what he perceived as anti-American. The post that irked you seems more an attempt to illustrate by example than any real animosity towards the English.
    Do I think it was a bit OTT, yes. Does it translate to Simon hates the English? Not IMO.
    That you got peeved is understandable, but saying Simon hates you? A bit OTT itself.
  • He says he hates the English. I am English. Maybe I have no sense of humour, but I found nothing funny in what he said.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    anoesis wrote: »
    I believe the entire membership of Sein Fein, Plaid Cymru and the SNP just turned and looked at you in disbelief.

    Hi DT - I'm aware of all these organisations and at least a glancing, potted version of their histories, and I don't get what you're trying to say. Happy to take a beating with a clue stick though - I was aware that such a post might get under some shirts, but I read Hugal's post as being basically a shrug - 'so? mistakes were made, let's move on', which is a shedload easier to say if you're not in a position where the sequelae of those mistakes is still playing out in your life and your environs every day...

    I was replying to Hugal, I didn’t see your post (prolly a timing / web caching issue). I don’t think the nationalist parties in the U.K. would accept that “There is no British empire anymore. Former colonies are independent and self governing.“

    Well I am from the North, lived in London for 27 years and now live in South Wales I have come across all sorts of opinions.
    My point was not to with the relationships within Britain. Former colonies are just that former colonies. They have their own governments. When I went to Ghana their was a feeling of being Ghanian. A feeling of having it’s own culture made up of many local cultures. The US is its own country.
    Believe me I am very aware of the animosity towards England from the other members of the union, and from regions within England to London. That was not my point.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    He says he hates the English. I am English. Maybe I have no sense of humour, but I found nothing funny in what he said.
    i didn’t say I thought he was attempting humour, I said I thought he was making a point.
    He thought the thread was being anti-American, so he posted an anti-English screed so the English would understand how it feels.
    My read anyway

  • Hugal wrote: »
    anoesis wrote: »
    I believe the entire membership of Sein Fein, Plaid Cymru and the SNP just turned and looked at you in disbelief.

    Hi DT - I'm aware of all these organisations and at least a glancing, potted version of their histories, and I don't get what you're trying to say. Happy to take a beating with a clue stick though - I was aware that such a post might get under some shirts, but I read Hugal's post as being basically a shrug - 'so? mistakes were made, let's move on', which is a shedload easier to say if you're not in a position where the sequelae of those mistakes is still playing out in your life and your environs every day...

    I was replying to Hugal, I didn’t see your post (prolly a timing / web caching issue). I don’t think the nationalist parties in the U.K. would accept that “There is no British empire anymore. Former colonies are independent and self governing.“

    Well I am from the North, lived in London for 27 years and now live in South Wales I have come across all sorts of opinions.
    My point was not to with the relationships within Britain. Former colonies are just that former colonies. They have their own governments. When I went to Ghana their was a feeling of being Ghanian. A feeling of having it’s own culture made up of many local cultures. The US is its own country.
    Believe me I am very aware of the animosity towards England from the other members of the union, and from regions within England to London. That was not my point.

    I think nationalists would argue Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are *currently* colonies - and there is something very obvious that could be done about that.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    The famous Kent State photograph. I was in high school when it happened, and I will never forget it.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    As an Australian with an English father and a mother with significant Irish heritage, watching this is fucking painful.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    I can't speak for the rest of you but I don't like being hated. It's happened to me several times in my life and it's frightening.

    I don't hate you, Robert. On the contrary, I find you to be pleasant and reasonable. I can see why you have reacted in this way, but the post you complain of wasn't the one intended to wake a poster up to his ignorance and you were not the target. The post that I wrote to mark @Kwesi was this one:
    I can get very passionate here. Its easy for me to slip into anti-English stuff, even though, or perhaps because I am at least two-thirds English, and my Grandfather was born in Blackpool. I think you are putting a very rosy view of little England, a view decidedly not shared by other Europeans. You do realise that the English are loathed, don't you @Kwesi I don't just mean a little bit, or historically. The English as a nation are deeply hated. So many times when I traveled in Europe in the 1990's our reception was decidedly frosty until people worked out we weren't English.

    Please note that I am putting to you the paragraph that I feel went too far. The first draft was worse, a full on rant, but I cut it down.

    I react emotionally when the Americans are talked about as if they are an undifferentiated borg cube (shout out to the Sci-fi thread in Heaven). I wanted to remind Kwesi that the English are also viewed that way, and are also hated in that way. I used my stock response to emotional upset: aggression and attack. It is a response I am continuing to work on, because it is problematic in my life and on the ship.

    I am not sorry for the paragraph you posted originally. To my mind, even standing on its own, it is clearly not an attack. It points instead at the ridiculousness of my anti-English feelings. It makes it crystal clear that the foundation for my feelings is the cricket. You can be forgiven for not knowing that Douglas Jardine was the English Captain in the Bodyline Ashes series in 1932/3. You can be forgiven for not knowing what the Bodyline series refers to. You mightn't have heard that English crowds treated Dave Warner to a going over in the most recent Ashes series. You mightn't have caught the reference to Steve Smith. Five of the nine reasons I give for my feelings are squarely related to one thing: Cricket. The other four are ancient shibboleths trotted out whenever English crimes are mentioned.

    I can't understand why you would be offended by that paragraph and not offended by the barb I shot in Kwesi's direction. I can't understand why you highlighted that paragraph, the self-deprecating one followed by other paragraphs which explain what and why I am doing, and not the one that I should have edited out or at least put in less inflammatory terms.

    It's like you read "I hate the English..." and stopped there. Now that is an understandable thing. I get that. But I would like you now to read further, and realise that this does not mean that I hate you, that I hate any other English shipmate, or indeed that I hate England or the English people. I love cricket, I love the ashes, I love it when we beat the English. It feels like I'm a part of our great national victory over the ancient foe. It is friendly sporting rivalry.

    I can think of reasons to do with the Troubles and the IRA bombing campaigns that might well cause an English person to react in a similar way to what I suspect you have done. In the 1990's, I was a guest in the home of a bloke in Ireland who remained deeply upset at the treatment he received in England from his workmates and the police in the aftermath of one of those pub bombings. I know that the fate of Ireland is unresolved, and the consequences of violence there and in the UK is present right now. So perhaps an ancient shibboleth for me is a present reality for you.

    I do not hate you Robert. I like you.

  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    As an Australian with an English father and a mother with significant Irish heritage, watching this is fucking painful.

    It would be interesting to me to know why. Your heritage is the same as my mother's, and is the same as mine, one generation removed.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It's like you read "I hate the English..." and stopped there. Now that is an understandable thing. I get that. But I would like you now to read further, and realise that this does not mean that I hate you, that I hate any other English shipmate, or indeed that I hate England or the English people.

    It's like you wrote something general and then expected people to ignore what you wrote.

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    As an Australian with an English father and a mother with significant Irish heritage, watching this is fucking painful.

    It would be interesting to me to know why. Your heritage is the same as my mother's, and is the same as mine, one generation removed.

    Because I don't give a shit about what some of my forebears might possibly have done to some of my other forbears. Not that I'm aware of any of my English ancestors being in any kind of position where they could have inflicted damage on the Irish (as opposed to, say, repairing their bicycles for them).

    But even if they had, carrying that around as if it has the slightest relevance to me makes zero sense. Sure, there are parts of the world where historical issues continue to have an effect like that, but do you seriously think modern Australia is one of them? As far as I can see, caring about who is Protestant and who is Catholic stopped being a thing about 50 years ago. Anglo-Celtic is about the most boring, and the most privileged, ancestry that an Australian can have. About the only interesting thing is that the Irish side gives me a bit more chance of having a convict ancestor, which these days is cool. Not that we found one.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    He says he hates the English. I am English. Maybe I have no sense of humour, but I found nothing funny in what he said.
    i didn’t say I thought he was attempting humour, I said I thought he was making a point.
    He thought the thread was being anti-American, so he posted an anti-English screed so the English would understand how it feels.
    My read anyway

    This.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    As an Australian with an English father and a mother with significant Irish heritage, watching this is fucking painful.

    It would be interesting to me to know why. Your heritage is the same as my mother's, and is the same as mine, one generation removed.

    Because I don't give a shit about what some of my forebears might possibly have done to some of my other forbears. Not that I'm aware of any of my English ancestors being in any kind of position where they could have inflicted damage on the Irish (as opposed to, say, repairing their bicycles for them).

    But even if they had, carrying that around as if it has the slightest relevance to me makes zero sense. Sure, there are parts of the world where historical issues continue to have an effect like that, but do you seriously think modern Australia is one of them? As far as I can see, caring about who is Protestant and who is Catholic stopped being a thing about 50 years ago. Anglo-Celtic is about the most boring, and the most privileged, ancestry that an Australian can have. About the only interesting thing is that the Irish side gives me a bit more chance of having a convict ancestor, which these days is cool. Not that we found one.

    Why is that fucking painful though? Unless you mean 'slightly irritating' by those words...
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    It's like you read "I hate the English..." and stopped there. Now that is an understandable thing. I get that. But I would like you now to read further, and realise that this does not mean that I hate you, that I hate any other English shipmate, or indeed that I hate England or the English people.

    It's like you wrote something general and then expected people to ignore what you wrote.

    You of all people should know about reading in context.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    You of all people should know about reading in context.

    You and all people should know that some things context can't excuse.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Why is that fucking painful though? Unless you mean 'slightly irritating' by those words...

    Because people are looking at you and probably making generalisations about what jerks Australians are.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    It all makes me think of this poem by A. E. Housman
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    Neither the Ireland nor the England ST refers to still exist. Ireland is now mostly a European secular country, and England is a post-colonial mess with no friends and little by way of advantages. This is the problem with relationships between former colonies and the original coloniser - both have moved on, and (with a few exceptions) always talk past each other. It's probably inevitable, but it should be done consciously.
  • I was born in England but there are huge aspects of the culture around me (in which I live and move and have my being) that I find reprehensible. I was born with few "advantages" and over the course of my lifetime people have unerringly pointed out my failings and those of my "background." I find it reprehensible that my ancestors were exploited as slave labour, imprisoned with neither trial nor evidence. I find it painful beyond belief that our much vaunted NHS failed both my parents publicly and without remorse. I find it unacceptable that when I move in certain social groups I am expected to join in their condemnation of the "others" - they seemingly can't tell from my accent and behaviour that I am "other."

    I decry the passive aggressive way of life that the UK is fast adopting - why can't we be open and honest yet gracious? I laugh when someone calls me British or English: I am proudly Anglo Saxon mixed with Roma.

    Yet whilst I can appreciate Toad's comments, I can't understand them (I'm not him) nor can I agree. Emotion drives to pitch point but much as I find life in England not to my taste or liking, I can't hate it. I deplore the casual and not so casual racism; I abhor past exploitation but I'm trying to make my way today to live in justice and to be merciful to all. I gain nothing with hatred, I triumph with grace.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    I can't speak for the rest of you but I don't like being hated. It's happened to me several times in my life and it's frightening.
    If one reads Simon Toad's posts preceding the one that kicked this off, it is fairly clear that he was reacting to what he perceived as anti-American. The post that irked you seems more an attempt to illustrate by example than any real animosity towards the English.
    Do I think it was a bit OTT, yes. Does it translate to Simon hates the English? Not IMO.
    That you got peeved is understandable, but saying Simon hates you? A bit OTT itself.

    Nice bit of victimsplaining. You could listen to what he said, instead. That would be nice.
  • I find it reprehensible that my ancestors were exploited as slave labour, imprisoned with neither trial nor evidence.
    I struggle with the assumptions made about our ancestors when discussing historic exploitation. My English ancestors were farm labourers exploited by upper class landowners; my great great great grandfather was George Loveless, leader of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, deported to Australia for swearing an oath (though in reality for forming a trade union). My ancestors then moved to the factories in the industrial revolution, to be exploited by middle class capitalists in the cotton mills and die early deaths from industrial diseases and poor diets.
    Am I supposed to hate the upper and middle classes collectively? Or just the English ones?
  • I find it reprehensible that my ancestors were exploited as slave labour, imprisoned with neither trial nor evidence.
    I struggle with the assumptions made about our ancestors when discussing historic exploitation. My English ancestors were farm labourers exploited by upper class landowners; my great great great grandfather was George Loveless, leader of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, deported to Australia for swearing an oath (though in reality for forming a trade union). My ancestors then moved to the factories in the industrial revolution, to be exploited by middle class capitalists in the cotton mills and die early deaths from industrial diseases and poor diets.
    Am I supposed to hate the upper and middle classes collectively? Or just the English ones?

    Hate is not something I mentioned. I have a view on the past - like we all do. The fact that the abuse happened within living memory (and yes, I am included in that) leads me to have to deal with it today.

    You've mentioned before that you go to church in Cambridge. Well it all happened in a South Cambridgeshire village where my family have provably lived since the 1500's.

    A couple of examples. I always wondered why I was baptised in a village away from home - I assumed it was because that was the village my mum came from. Just before he died, my dad (then nearing his 85th birthday) told me why: the shame remained with him to that day. I wasn't christened in my home village because the vicar refused to do it: apparently my dad didn't go to church often enough (well he did work 7 days a week feeding animals but went when he could ) and besides which, he (the Vicar) didn't christen children from "that estate."

    Roll forward to December 2015: Cambridge Crematorium. My dad (in his coffin) is forced to wait on the A14. The hearse can't even come on site. The funeral prior to his overruns by 45 minutes - yes you heard 45 minutes. A mourner for that funeral collapses as they leave the chapel -- luckily in my immediate family there are 3 trained nurses of a variety of disciplines. The Crem has neither a first aid kit nor a first aider on duty - the daughters do the necessary. As a result of the overrun (not the fault of the collapse) it's so late that, of the 150+ people there very few can come to the hall as they're elderly, its dark and it's now Cambridge rush hour. On the car park that is the A14.

    All of that is stuff that happens except when I contact the Crem just to raise a question, I twice get the brush off. I discover the funeral before Dad's was a "great and the good." Most Crems I know kick you out 5 mins after going over.

    It's only when I contact under the full titles that I have and remind them that I hold degrees (note the plural) from the University next door, that they start to poop themselves. Until then I am the son of a deceased Farm Labourer and they make assumptions accordingly. Full refund plus donation to charity follows (well the whole lot went to Charity). That stunk because sadly there is still the great divide in places like Cambridge - don't even get me started on the social bias in Addenbrookes Hospital.

    I don't struggle with assumptions - it's long been a case of dealing with reality. I can't hate though I an only try to put things right for the future.

  • Class was a moveable feast in past times - wasn't Thomas Cromwell the son of a blacksmith, became a mercenary and had to be rescued starving? Thrived until Henry VIII, until he didn't and was beheaded. And those who irritated his great, great nephew Oliver Cromwell tended not to thrive, either.

    The Who Do You Think You Are? Danny Dwyer episode was an illustration of this.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    Cromwell and Wolsey were exceptional men who still dealt with prejudice after they were raised from the dusty ground. For every one of them, there were a very large number of people who were denied the chance to advance, or even conceived that it was possible. I think those things haven't really changed, but we throw a blanket of fantasy over our social rigidity, called equality of opportunity.

    Note the 'we'. The Anglosphere is more or less the same on this and many other things. We like to think Britain is more rigid, but I don't believe it for a second. Equality of opportunity is an opium for the masses.

    I enjoyed the poem, @BroJames. Still unpacking it.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Neither the Ireland nor the England ST refers to still exist. Ireland is now mostly a European secular country, and England is a post-colonial mess with no friends and little by way of advantages. This is the problem with relationships between former colonies and the original coloniser - both have moved on, and (with a few exceptions) always talk past each other. It's probably inevitable, but it should be done consciously.
    England can say she's moved on, but the problems her past engendered still live.
    And the UK* does have power. It is only sitting in the UK that one can be divorced from her current influence. The UK mightn't be in the same class as the US, China or Russia, but neither is she in the same as Luxembourg. Was speaking to a South African about Brexit and was informed that SA was very attentive as their economy is tied to Britain.
    Both coloniser and colonies have moved on, but it is not as simple as that.

    *and England especially within the UK
  • Hate is not something I mentioned. I have a view on the past - like we all do. The fact that the abuse happened within living memory (and yes, I am included in that) leads me to have to deal with it today.
    The comment about hate wasn’t directed towards you (my apologies for not being clearer on that, my quoting of you was supposed to follow on what you said about ancestors). You clearly say that you are trying to live in justice and to be merciful to all and that is something I, too, feel passionate about.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Why is that fucking painful though? Unless you mean 'slightly irritating' by those words...

    Because people are looking at you and probably making generalisations about what jerks Australians are.

    Relax, Orfeo. I'd hazard another generalisation. That some people are thinking what a jerk Simon Toad is, not Australians in general.

    I can see the context for his remarks and what he was getting at. The way he expressed himself was still jerkish though.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Why is that fucking painful though? Unless you mean 'slightly irritating' by those words...

    Because people are looking at you and probably making generalisations about what jerks Australians are.

    @Simon Toad why don't you just apologize and let it rest? It's not like you're lilbuddha who is apparently constitutionally incapable of apologizing.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Much of what has been said about England on this thread is almost right. The English have for a long time been made to feel ashamed of being English. We have had to be British. Whilst politically England has been strong culturally being English has been bad. Most English people have identified more with their locality than England. Devolution of power from Westminster has actually allowed the English to be more proud of being English. As I said I live in South Wales and to be honest day to day no one cares I am English.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Why is that fucking painful though? Unless you mean 'slightly irritating' by those words...

    Because people are looking at you and probably making generalisations about what jerks Australians are.

    Relax, Orfeo. I'd hazard another generalisation. That some people are thinking what a jerk Simon Toad is, not Australians in general.

    I can see the context for his remarks and what he was getting at. The way he expressed himself was still jerkish though.

    Aha! That I can come at.

    @mousethief says I should apologise, while continuing his private war with lilbuddha in the same breath...

    I do apologise for acting like a jerk.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    @mousethief says I should apologise, while continuing his private war with lilbuddha in the same breath...

    Yes, I think she should apologize too. Was that not plain?
    I do apologise for acting like a jerk.

    Thank you.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ...I am not sorry for the paragraph you posted originally. To my mind, even standing on its own, it is clearly not an attack. It points instead at the ridiculousness of my anti-English feelings. It makes it crystal clear that the foundation for my feelings is the cricket. ...You mightn't have heard that English crowds treated Dave Warner to a going over in the most recent Ashes series. ...
    Oh, there was a David Warner who played/plays cricket? I thought you meant the actor, who played Evil in Time Bandits.

  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    ...I am not sorry for the paragraph you posted originally. To my mind, even standing on its own, it is clearly not an attack. It points instead at the ridiculousness of my anti-English feelings. It makes it crystal clear that the foundation for my feelings is the cricket. ...You mightn't have heard that English crowds treated Dave Warner to a going over in the most recent Ashes series. ...
    Oh, there was a David Warner who played/plays cricket? I thought you meant the actor, who played Evil in Time Bandits.

    :killing_me
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    @Simon Toad - all respect to you Simon, for being willing to be open about your own inherited antipathies.

    And none to those who refuse to read your post in the spirit in which it was meant.

    All the unhellish posts on this thread indicate that there are real issues around the feelings we have about our own and other countries and cultures.

    It may be something of a cliche about expatriates that they carry away with them a set of ideas about the country & culture they leave that are slow to change, free of the need to compromise in changing circumstances.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    My husband is U. S. Air Force. He was stationed at Upper Heyford RAB for three years. When WWII ended it was agreed that the U.S. would "keep a presence" in England, at our own expense, as a favor. They seem to hate us for it.

    For my sake, my husband had kindly put England at the top of his "wish list" for assignments, ahead of his own Hawaii. I was thrilled. England had been my dream vacation, forever, as my reading life was almost always spent in England.

    I was so excited I didn't sleep on the seven hour flight and I was still ecstatic when we landed, but by the time I had made it through Heathrow I had learned that as much as I loved them they sure didn't like me.

    We spent three years hearing shop and restaurant owners as well as ordinary people we came in contact with mutter, "I hate Americans," or "I hate Yanks," deliberately loud enough for us to hear. We didn't have to say a word, just watching us eat set them off. If I did have occasion to talk my accent brought out some really nasty comments based on the movie "Deliverance'" about what an incestuous racist I must be.

    We were happy to fly home to our next base in Georgia. We didn't make it out of the Atlanta airport before someone looked at us and said, "I hate Yankees."

    Russ wrote: »

    It may be something of a cliche about expatriates that they carry away with them a set of ideas about the country & culture they leave that are slow to change, free of the need to compromise in changing circumstances.

    My family is from West Virginia, but my oldest brother moved to San Francisco in 1967. For the rest of his life he compared his lovely, progressive adopted city with the West Virginia of the 1950's.

  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    I can tell you for free Twilight that there are plenty of Australians who are perfectly happy to have American services based here, and coming here for R&R. There are many who are not, of course, but they are wrong.

    My own personal wish is to have as many American personnel and as much American hardware on Australian soil as we can fit. It is in part for reasons of domestic politics. It allows the argument to be made that even if there is an arsehole like Trump in the White House, it will be too expensive for him not to come to our defence.

    And we will likely need that in the next 30 or so years, heaven forbid. China has indicated they will be imposing a tariff on Australian barley imports,and have made dark hints about our other exports. We had the temerity not to trust the WHO when it delayed the designation of a pandemic, and call for an inquiry into the early stages of Covid-19. While I wouldn't expect China to allow international investigators onto its soil without controlling them, our Government rarely if ever talks about China off the cuff (yes, even Dutton plans his attacks and gets approval, he just makes it sound like he doesn't). They are our biggest trading partner and we walk a fine line. They always come back at us, calling us lackeys of the Americans and playing tricks with our trade. We are not lackeys. We are bonded cousins.

    @Russ while I find myself endlessly fascinating, I am also very interested in identity, how we construct it for ourselves, why we choose to emphasise different parts. I find it enthralling. I also like a bit of argy-bargy, just on the QT, but only if its the friendly variety.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    My husband is U. S. Air Force. He was stationed at Upper Heyford RAB for three years. When WWII ended it was agreed that the U.S. would "keep a presence" in England, at our own expense, as a favor. They seem to hate us for it.

    While not excusing the rudeness, perhaps the idea that you are doing the UK a favour by making us prime targets for Soviet/Russian missile attacks is a contributing factor to hostility to Americans around US bases.
  • I'm sorry you experienced such hostility on British soil - or should that be more explicitly - 'English soil', Twilight.

    There's no excuse for such rudeness.

    I could cite examples of jerkish behaviour by US personnel based on UK soil - as indeed elsewhere in Europe - but that doesn't excuse the crassness of the behaviour you encountered.

    Coming back to Mr Toad. Fair do's, mind. I'm happy to accept the apology for jerkish behaviour as someone who is Anglo-Welsh and who has himself proven capable of far more jerkish behaviour than Simon Toad has demonstrated.

    I often like to quote the 12th century cleric, Gerald of Wales (Giraldus Cambriensis) who wrote, 'I am sprung from the Princes of Wales and the Barons of the Marches, and when I see injustice in either race, I hate it.'
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Twilight wrote: »
    My husband is U. S. Air Force. He was stationed at Upper Heyford RAB for three years. When WWII ended it was agreed that the U.S. would "keep a presence" in England, at our own expense, as a favor. They seem to hate us for it.

    While not excusing the rudeness, perhaps the idea that you are doing the UK a favour by making us prime targets for Soviet/Russian missile attacks is a contributing factor to hostility to Americans around US bases.

    The U. S. has downsized our presence in England since we were there in 1993. The Upper Heyford base is now RAF. We were only ever there by invitation and request. We were always ready to leave anytime your government had thought we were making things more, rather than less, dangerous for you.

    While we were there we visited a cemetery that contained the graves of over 10,000 American soldiers killed there during WWII. We heard an Englishwoman snarl, "Americans act like they won the war when all they did was help out a little." Was that you?

    I don't know any American who thinks we won WWII single handed and I don't know any who expect thanks or appreciation from any of you for "helping out a little." I was only surprised that so many, like you, are so angry at us for it.
  • @Twilight - sometimes your countrymen do you no favours. As someone who is not anti-American, summer in tourist areas of London used to reduce me to avoiding Americans or anyone looking like an American tourist (wearing a Hawaiian shirt, hung about by cameras): too many American tourists rudely expecting me to act as tour guide to misnamed places. Polite requests did have me going out of my way to show people where they wanted to go, rude demands not so much. "Hey! you there" standing in the way and not letting me past, "where is the Albert and Victoria Museum?" reads as rude here, particularly to someone rushing to something else. (It's the Victoria and Albert Museum.) And at the time, living in South Kensington, in student residences, we were asked directions 10 or 15 times a day.

    Working in Selfridges on a student job one summer, mostly the tourists were lovely, but one or two Americans were rude, demanded waitress service in a cafeteria, which when my job was to clear and clean tables in an area, and just keep doing it fast, was a problem. They complained loudly and vociferously about things we could do nothing about - like the Coca Cola and digestive biscuits not being to American standards and nothing like a Graham cracker. And sniffed and got ruder when I apologised and said I'm sorry, that's just the way Coco Cola and digestive biscuits are here, because seriously how was I supposed to magic up American versions? While everything piled up around us and I was getting legitimate abuse for not doing my job.
  • I feel very embarrassed by comments such as the one you overheard in the cemetery, Twilight and whilst I wouldn't say they were representative, it is a view I've come across.

    I have come across the opposite view as well, particularly on F***book - that the USA won the war single-handedly. Not that FB is any platform to take as indicative of public opinion in any country.

    It is a fact, though that there are a few war movies which make British and other allied achievements into American ones. That isn't a purely US phenomenon. The French complained that the recent Dunkirk film overlooked their contribution. Some French units fought to the last to enable the BEF to escape.

    Apparent US arrogance and particularism - real or perceived - by no means justifies the kind of rude and pig-ignorant comments you unfortunately encountered over here.

    If it's any consolation, I always go out of my way to greet or assist US or any other tourists I encounter here, particularly if they are somewhere away from the regular tourist haunts.

    I'd love to invite Mr Twilight and yourself here to show you a few places and hopefully meet a few people who could compensate for the jerks who gave you a hard time the last time you were here.
  • MMMMMM Shipmate
    Twilight, I agree with Gamma Gamaliel.

    MMM
  • Twilight wrote: »
    Twilight wrote: »
    My husband is U. S. Air Force. He was stationed at Upper Heyford RAB for three years. When WWII ended it was agreed that the U.S. would "keep a presence" in England, at our own expense, as a favor. They seem to hate us for it.

    While not excusing the rudeness, perhaps the idea that you are doing the UK a favour by making us prime targets for Soviet/Russian missile attacks is a contributing factor to hostility to Americans around US bases.

    The U. S. has downsized our presence in England since we were there in 1993. The Upper Heyford base is now RAF. We were only ever there by invitation and request. We were always ready to leave anytime your government had thought we were making things more, rather than less, dangerous for you.

    While we were there we visited a cemetery that contained the graves of over 10,000 American soldiers killed there during WWII. We heard an Englishwoman snarl, "Americans act like they won the war when all they did was help out a little." Was that you?

    I don't know any American who thinks we won WWII single handed and I don't know any who expect thanks or appreciation from any of you for "helping out a little." I was only surprised that so many, like you, are so angry at us for it.

    I don't know where you got the idea that I was angry at you. I was just trying to shed some light on your unfortunate experience.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    It is hilarious to hear English complain about Yank tourists given the English behaving badly on holiday reputation.
  • Indeed.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited May 2020
    We each have our own faults when abroad. I'm sure Americans hate our habits when we're there, just as we aren't fond of their bad habits when there.

    Squeaky purity is not necessary to be able to comment on these things.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    We each have our own faults when abroad. I'm sure Americans hate our habits when we're there, just as we aren't fond of their bad habits when there.
    Americans love Brits. Even to the extent that a black Brit is elevated above being black.
    Squeaky purity is not necessary to be able to comment on these things.
    Of course. Just putting things in balance.

  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    It is hilarious to hear English complain about Yank tourists given the English behaving badly on holiday reputation.

    Is that an accurate report about the character of every English person travelling abroad, or merely a lazy generalisation?
This discussion has been closed.