There are quite a few cemeteries where the total number of graves and memorials is that high. The Cambridge Cemetery is the main cemetery for US causalities of WWII.
I've often meant to ask - with this shortage of paid leave, quite apart from travel how do you guys do stuff? - who looks after the kids during school holidays for example?
We'd like to know this, too.
In my own family growing up--we had a succession of highly unsatisfactory teenage babysitters (you know, got caught having sex on the couch with the kids around, that sort of thing) and then at age 10, my mother decided I was old enough to watch, cook for and feed the other two (9 and 6). My niece is doing much the same thing right now with her two boys. The eldest is I think 12.
For younger children, one works out a haphazard series of places to "stash" them, which may include Grandma, a neighbor family with an adult at home, a summer camp (alas, all too short--usually two weeks--and generally 9 to 3 or so each day, which means being late to the office and early out (much frowned upon by supervisors!) or paying extravagant rates for before and aftercare (assuming it's provided, which it isn't, sometimes). In a few (hopefully rare) cases, people have been known to bring their kids to work, or to put them in the car outside with strict orders not to get into trouble or talk to strangers (yeah, I'm horrified too). The basic assumption of managers etc. across the board is, "You chose to have a child, you deal with the fall-out." Which explains our falling birth-rate, at least among those who plan.
You can ask similar questions of "how do you manage to have surgery?" and the like. For the unprivileged among us, we blow our annual vacation on it (=two weeks, generally), and hope like hell we can get the scheduling right, and have no complications, and feel guilty about destroying the family chance to go anywhere or do anything else that year.
I tell you, it sucks.
You have my sympathy and for that matter my admiration - I'd be in the psych wing. Except I'd be too afraid I couldn't afford to be.
In addition to what @Lamb Chopped said, here at least there are day camps and summer programs, for those who can afford them. Some are pricey, while others are more reasonable or even aimed more at low income families.
The local Parks and Recreation program here does a good summer day camp, which is subsidized by local government and is aimed at lower income families. It also provides summer jobs to older teens; my son worked as a day camp counselor one summer, and other kids I know have done things like park maintenance. The local network of YMCAs also does summer/out-of-school programs (as well as after school programs), and provides scholarships and other financial assistance for them.
Just out of interest, and a bit of a tangent, where was the cemetery with some 10,000 US war graves? Normandy?
I can't think of anywhere in the UK with that many war graves of any nationality.
It's a debt in response to lives lost and broken, forged in bloody fellowship. To disrespect them is dishonorable at the very least, but to be annoyed at annoying behavior is human. American war graves near Australia are in the Coral Sea.
Yeah, I had a boss who fucking would not give me time off to visit dying relatives, only time to go to the funerals after they were dead. (Screw him, I went anyway.) And the same guy had the chutzpah to tell me that I should have told the surgeon to get on MY schedule, because we might have had a proofreading emergency!
Never have I been so relieved as the day he fired me.
Please, Miss, not me, Miss, I’ve never spent much time in Kerygmania and would never dream of posting there.
MMM
Never you, dear! Your name always makes me think of Minnesota and the 3 M Scotch tape and post-it company, so vital to us all. No her name was something like Mary Magdalene Magnolia.
I was acquainted with her in the online version of Real Life. I just confirmed her name, looked her up on Facebook, and discovered that she's friends with seven current and former Shippies. I am not particularly tempted to renew the acquaintance.
Listen you fucking muppet. I didn't make any generalisation in the bit you quoted. If you read for comprehension, you'd have noticed that. The only duck sound you heard was your voice trying to escape from your tightly clenched arse.
It is hilarious to hear English complain about Yank tourists given the English behaving badly on holiday reputation.
Some English? All English? What behaviour in particular? Could you be more explicit?
Or you could, you know, apologise.
Read. The. Fucking. Sentence.
Simple thing for even such a simple mind.
Let your own simple mind understand that "English" complaining is your lazy way of not naming the specific Shipmates (who happen to be English) that you were meaning to refer to.
Good lord, but stupid pills are in abundance on this thread. I did not refer to or mean any shipmates, nor in the bit quoted actually make a generalisation at all. Lazy are those not reading for fucking context and those letting their prejudice flavour their interpretation.
So let me get this straight. When you said:
It is hilarious to hear English complain about Yank tourists given the English behaving badly on holiday reputation.
None of the English that were complaining were here on the Ship? It had precisely nothing to do with the previous content of the thread?
You might think stupid pills are in abundance, but that suggests you swallowed a few before counting and mixed a couple of non sequitur capsules in as well.
Personally I don't think it's stupid to assume that a post in a thread has some general connection with what has gone before, but apparently now I can't assume that your contributions to the conversation are relevant.
There is the Normandy American War Cemetery of St Laurent which has according to its publicity 9388 burials of American service people who died during the campaigns in Normandy. That is ,I suppose, give or take a few, 10 000. It is a chilling experience to walk through it. Not far away there is a much smaller British War cemetery at Notre Dame de la Délivrande and indeed a very moving German War cemetery just outside of Isigny sur mer.
The American cemetery is just outside of Colleville which has since WW2 added to its name that of Montgomery, Colleville-Montgomery.
Just checked the name of the German cemetery which is La Cambe- 21,222 German combattants are buried there -making La Cambe the largest of the various German cemeteries in Normandy (80 000 dead)
These times must not come back.
Reading this thread it seems like there are a lot of shitty employers in the US. I haven't heard as many horror stories about employment in Canada because we have comparatively stronger employment legislation.
Re how Americans manage to work around limited vacation, etc.:
--Chiming in with what other American Shipmates have said. When and where I grew up, it was still expected that most kids would have an adult member of the household available after school, on vacations, when a kid was out sick, possibly even for a daytime meeting with a teacher or principal.
Some kids had an adult or an older sibling. Some went to day camp, sleep-away camp, various classes, vacation Bible school, etc.. Some probably went to the library. Some worked--often picking berries, having been collected early in the morning by a repurposed school bus, and dropped off afterwards, and some families used the money to pay for the kid's school clothes. Others babysat. Some kids were more or
less on their own, alone or hanging out with other kids. Etc.
--As to doing things on vacation: If we have any (paid) vacation time at all, we often take a stay-cation*. We may stay at home, catching up on household projects, doctor appointments, surgery (as LC said), and sleep. We may play tourist around town or in nearby areas, just for the day.
--I'm going to say something, and will try to say it respectfully. IME, it periodically needs to be said; and this seems to be a really good time to do that; and I'm in a state of mind where I think I can navigate it. So please bear with me.
America isn't necessarily what you think it is. In a past convo, someone said that the US "is aspirational" for many folks. That's true. But it's not *just* that. Any more than *your* various countries--which *are* aspirational/inspirational for many Americans--are just:
--literature, music, and other arts;
--Stonehenge, King Arthur, and Picadilly Square;
--the Sydney Opera House, Great Barrier Reef, and Crocodile Dundee;
--Paris, wine, and the French Alps;
--maple syrup, moose, and the Calgary Stampede;
--the Great Wall, the Terra Cotta Army, and silk;
--Mt. Kilimanjaro, diamonds, and Timbuktu
--Sun Goddess Amaterasu, sushi, and tech;
--Pyramids, ruins, and lucha libre (masked fighting);
etc. I tried to think of where I know Shipmates live, and chose details accordingly. I realized I could go on for a long time, so stopped. Apologies to anyone left out. (And remember: I'm saying these countries *aren't* just other people's image of them.)
A good deal of negative feeling toward the US have been expressed on the Ship, over the years: directly, indirectly, loudly, and whispered. That is very grating for American Shipmates, over the years. God knows evil things have been done in the name of the US, are being done, and will be done in the future. Unfortunately, democracy doesn't mean you can necessarily change things. But America isn't just the bad things, any more than your countries are just whatever bad things are in their history, present, and future. I'm not going to list things, but you can all think of negative things about your countries' past, present, and future. And how it might feel to have that rubbed in your faces, over and over.
So maybe we can cut each other's countries--and each other--some slack. There's more to us and our countries than any of that.
*In a past convo, I explained that, and LC and others did, too. Non-Americans seemed to have a hard time believing it.
Just checked the name of the German cemetery which is La Cambe- 21,222 German combattants are buried there -making La Cambe the largest of the various German cemeteries in Normandy (80 000 dead)
These times must not come back.
I know exactly what you mean, but the comment jars with me. I can't help thinking that these times are with us somewhere on the planet for almost every single day between the end of the war in Europe and today.
--As to doing things on vacation: If we have any (paid) vacation time at all, we often take a stay-cation*. We may stay at home, catching up on household projects, doctor appointments, surgery (as LC said), and sleep. We may play tourist around town or in nearby areas, just for the day.
The effect of this is that those Americans we notice as tourists in our nations are a small subset of the American population. These are the few Americans able to take a long vacation in another country (indeed, the subset of those who want to); those who have enough money to pay for flights, hotels etc; those who have sufficient annual leave to be able to afford the time (or, who are retired). Added to which, it's the subset of those who do things that mean they get noticed - the majority of tourists just get on with being tourists visiting the sights and eating in the over priced restaurant near the attractions when the locals know there are better and cheaper places just round the corner, and don't see the need to wear Hawaiian shirts in London or carry a Jessops* store around their neck, much less make a nuisance of themselves stopping locals going about their business.
Listen you fucking muppet. I didn't make any generalisation in the bit you quoted. If you read for comprehension, you'd have noticed that. The only duck sound you heard was your voice trying to escape from your tightly clenched arse.
It is hilarious to hear English complain about Yank tourists given the English behaving badly on holiday reputation.
Some English? All English? What behaviour in particular? Could you be more explicit?
Or you could, you know, apologise.
Read. The. Fucking. Sentence.
Simple thing for even such a simple mind.
Let your own simple mind understand that "English" complaining is your lazy way of not naming the specific Shipmates (who happen to be English) that you were meaning to refer to.
Good lord, but stupid pills are in abundance on this thread. I did not refer to or mean any shipmates, nor in the bit quoted actually make a generalisation at all. Lazy are those not reading for fucking context and those letting their prejudice flavour their interpretation.
So let me get this straight. When you said:
It is hilarious to hear English complain about Yank tourists given the English behaving badly on holiday reputation.
None of the English that were complaining were here on the Ship? It had precisely nothing to do with the previous content of the thread?
You might think stupid pills are in abundance, but that suggests you swallowed a few before counting and mixed a couple of non sequitur capsules in as well.
Personally I don't think it's stupid to assume that a post in a thread has some general connection with what has gone before, but apparently now I can't assume that your contributions to the conversation are relevant.
The comment was aimed at the the English referenced in Twilight's post. CK mentioned American tourist encounters, but she differentiated between polite and rude and I wasn't referencing her. Though apologies to @Curiosity killed if she felt insult. If there are English here that behave as the English in Twilight's encounter do, then they are included in my comment. Which was simply about the irony of confronting American tourists about their bad behaviour before they had a chance to behave in any fashion, good or ill, when it precisely mirrors English tourists in Europe.
Simon Toad - you are undoubtedly correct when you say that World War 2 and the millions who died have not ended cruelty, torture and enslavement of others. Those of us of a certain age will remember in varying ways the horrors of the Second World War, what led up to it and what came after it. There are now many others who still have to learn much about it and war in general.
It behoves us, however, as human beings ,and not just people of faith, to do our best to make the world we all live in a better place.
It may be that perfection can only be achieved in Heaven, but we have to continue to work towards it.
the majority of tourists just get on with being tourists visiting the sights and eating in the over priced restaurant near the attractions when the locals know there are better and cheaper places just round the corner, and don't see the need to wear Hawaiian shirts in London or carry a Jessops* store around their neck, much less make a nuisance of themselves stopping locals going about their business.
I just saw something interesting in this -- we may solve our differences, yet!
To my mind, Curiosity Killed had every right to be annoyed by rude Americans demanding directions, but I can't quite understand Alan's example of the bad American as one who wears Hawaiian shirts in London.
If the average American encountered a British tourist wearing white knee socks and shorts in Texas we would smile and be delighted. Once while in Mexico, wearing a West Virginia T-shirt, a couple of Mexican men pointed at me and shouted, "Possum pie!" We all laughed in joy. I was pleased they knew something about my state even if it was a ridiculous stereotype from 50's TV.
I'm thinking maybe one reason we Americans offend British people so much is that we just don't have the same regard for "proper" as you do.
I once had a little tiny girl in England ask me, "Why don't you speak proper English?" She sounded a bit huffy about it. I think an American child in the reverse situation would just say, "You talk funny," and seem happy about it.
I think one could do a psychological treatise on why. ISTM, from listening to older folks, at least some of it started during WWII. Adding political dynamics, declining empire, entertainment, etc. and then topping it with actual tourists behaving badly
I just picked on the stereotype of "typical" American tourist as sometimes portrayed in our (fortunately) rare Pond Wars. The point being the tourists you notice are those who by their clothing or actions stand out. That will be a subset of all the tourists which includes those you don't notice. The same goes for the British tourist in white knee socks and shorts, this is someone you notice and immediately recognise as not from around here but you don't notice the majority of tourists in less outlandish (as in, not common in the land you happen to be in) clothing.
I'm not sure I've ever met an American in a Hawaiian shirt, except when wearing that shirt was a bit of a gag (I think it was Scot who arranged for people meeting up for a Santa Fe meet to wear Hawaiian shirts so that they could be recognised ... which makes the point for me, the majority of Americans passing through the airport would not be wearing such shirts and so the chance of going up to a complete stranger thinking they're a Shipmate and getting it wrong was low).
Re tourism. Best is to enjoy yourself, try to fit in, and be polite. It's best if the locals mostly don't notice you IMHO until you get into conversation.
I think one could do a psychological treatise on why. ISTM, from listening to older folks, at least some of it started during WWII. Adding political dynamics, declining empire, entertainment, etc. and then topping it with actual tourists behaving badly.
Yes! While we were in England I heard a comedian on the radio describe an old WWII vet: "Twitching by the fire, muttering about those damn Yanks coming around taking our girls with their canned peaches."
We loved that. Just recently when hubs and I couldn't find canned peaches here in the supermarket, I said, "Now how will we ever get British girls?"
I'm not sure I've ever met an American in a Hawaiian shirt, except when wearing that shirt was a bit of a gag
I work with several for whom a Hawaiian shirt is their choice of everyday garb, plus a couple for whom such a shirt would be a sober and muted choice. But they are a relatively small minority.
There's another stereotype of the American who learns that you're from England, and immediately asks if you know his good friends the Smiths who live in London. I've actually had this very conversation (with a lovely rather maternal American lady who seemed to feel obliged to chat to my then-student self during some dreary period hanging around in an airport). I had to explain to her that whilst I did live in London, so did several million other people, and that I knew where Hampstead Heath was, but had never to my knowledge been to whichever street her friends lived on. (I've had the same conversation with several American friends who poke fun at this stereotype, but I think the lady in question was being quite genuine.)
But, of course, the thousands of Americans I've sat by in airports who have been normally polite don't stick in one's memory.
I'm thinking maybe one reason we Americans offend British people so much is that we just don't have the same regard for "proper" as you do.
I think there's truth in that. I've lived in the US for getting on for two decades, and my teeth still get set on edge a bit when I go to a restaurant and some cheerful young waiter introduces themselves as Bill or Kaylie or whatever, asks after my health, and generally acts like they are a close friend.
We've been lucky to be able travel a fair amount in various European countries in the last five years, and one of the things that's become increasingly apparent is how it can sometimes be challenging to travel in a foreign country without making yourself look like an idiot. All sorts of regular everyday things (shops, restaurants, rail and bus travel, etc.) are done subtly differently in different places, and some places seem to be more tolerant of inevitable tourist error than others. I sometimes wish we could go everywhere twice - the first time to get the hang of the place, and the second time to apply the lessons learned the first time around (maybe with a better grasp of the language as well...).
I've lived in the US for getting on for two decades, and my teeth still get set on edge a bit when I go to a restaurant and some cheerful young waiter introduces themselves as Bill or Kaylie or whatever, asks after my health, and generally acts like they are a close friend.
Except for when my dad was stationed in Okinawa, which hardly counts since I was so young, I've lived here my whole life, and I wish to God servers weren't told to do this. Ever since I read this article by an American living in Finland I've wished I had been born there -- not having to say "hello" to everyone in the office every time you run across them sounds like heaven. But I think if I moved there it would feel weird to be around so many people not sporting the stereotypical American cheery (over-)friendliness.
There's another stereotype of the American who learns that you're from England, and immediately asks if you know his good friends the Smiths who live in London.
I had that kind of thing happen to me frequently when I lived in Northern Ireland. I would be standing in a bus queue chatting with those nearby, and someone, noticing I was American, would say, "Do you know so-and-so? He lives in New Jersey."
This never bothered me. I just said "No, I'm sorry," and let it go. It wasn't something to get annoyed about.
We even do it to ourselves! Moo lives in Virginia, I lived in West Virginia, not the western part of Virginia, but a whole different state, and fellow Americans will ask me if I know someone from Richmond. (It's in Virginia.)
I'm thinking maybe one reason we Americans offend British people so much is that we just don't have the same regard for "proper" as you do.
I think there's truth in that. I've lived in the US for getting on for two decades, and my teeth still get set on edge a bit when I go to a restaurant and some cheerful young waiter introduces themselves as Bill or Kaylie or whatever, asks after my health, and generally acts like they are a close friend.
I've never felt offended by it, but the friendliness can feel like flirting. It typically isn't, and I never assume it is.
I've noticed reciprocating the friendliness results in better service.
Server bingo is a terrible game..... Billy or Kaylee prancing up to the table while you're deep in conversation or with a mouthful "how are the first few bites tasting". And push the boat out on picking up the wine bottle and refilling our glasses. You have no idea Billy-Kaylee if we want more wine just now, and who gets to drink it.
I know they've got no choice, so try not to get mad about it. But I DO get a bit ticked off if they consistently wait until I've just taken a bite to ask.
As for "Do you know So-and-so?" I got this about celebrities when people here found out I was from Southern California (ha! as if), and I get it about synodical leadership now that I'm in the Midwest. One guy seriously thought we went to lunch with the church president every week or some such, and got pissy because he thought we had "undue influence"! Like he'd know who we were.
True story. 1975. I'm in Barbados living in a $2/night youth hostel which comes with breakfast. Doing chores gets you supper and I found they were good with me collecting sea urchins and spearing fish. Some Dutch guy shows up as I'm gathering up my catches and starts going on about a friend from Toronto "do you know him" about which I talked over him letting him know I was from 2500 miles from there. Then he says who it is and yes I knew him. I still hate that Dutch bastard.
There is a really hilarious series of skethches done by Harry (enfield) & Paul (whitehouse) about a stereotypical pair of American tourists in London. They are kind of a gentle poke, I reckon. Here is an example.
Please note that these two comedians are noted bastards who pick on everybody, including, notably, South Africans, posh English people, and Nelson Mandela. I find some of the Mandela ones a scream, but they also cross a line for me on racism. That's not their only sketches that cross the line on racism either...
Typically, most of their income comes from tips. Any base pay is usually very low. So they have ample reason to make nice with the customers.
I bloody hate that about America and I bet most of you do too. Like, every time its mentioned I want to rant and rage. I am not an introvert, but my default position is 'shut up go away'. I would prefer to tip people who leave me the hell alone!!!!!
Typically, most of their income comes from tips. Any base pay is usually very low. So they have ample reason to make nice with the customers.
I bloody hate that about America and I bet most of you do too. Like, every time its mentioned I want to rant and rage. I am not an introvert, but my default position is 'shut up go away'. I would prefer to tip people who leave me the hell alone!!!!!
The proper people to be angry with are not the servers.
I understand that the waitstaff have no choice but to behave that way to me. They can be massively surprised if you behave nicely to them in return. As a solo traveller I didn't usually have someone else to talk to.
The one time I was truly enraged, though, was when I did a day bus tour, and the package put together by the bus company asked us to tip the driver. Myself and the other Australians on the tour basically wanted to say how about you fucking pay your employee properly instead of asking us to cough up extra money for him? It was one thing for the driver himself to ask, but having his employer ask was beyond the pale.
I got "So you went to the University of Washington. Did you know....?" The University of Washington had 50,000 students when I was there. Also, "So you worked at Boeing. Did you know....?" Boeing had 200,000 employees when I worked there.
I understand that the waitstaff have no choice but to behave that way to me. They can be massively surprised if you behave nicely to them in return. As a solo traveller I didn't usually have someone else to talk to.
The one time I was truly enraged, though, was when I did a day bus tour, and the package put together by the bus company asked us to tip the driver. Myself and the other Australians on the tour basically wanted to say how about you fucking pay your employee properly instead of asking us to cough up extra money for him? It was one thing for the driver himself to ask, but having his employer ask was beyond the pale.
The more this thread goes on, the more I'd like to take Twilight to Nantwich where the inhabitants tended a plot of initially very boggy ground where an American airman died when his Typhoon crashed after his breathing equipment failed on a high altitude exercise.
Gradually, it developed into a lovingly tended memorial to all US war dead and the town takes very seriously an annual commemoration for this pilot and for all US personnel who died during WW2.
At the time, it was believed from the erratic motion of the falling plane that the pilot had recovered consciousness in time to steer it away from the houses and into the marsh beside the river Weaver. More recent research suggests that he wouldn't have recovered consciousness at all. Nevertheless, the site became associated with the bravery and sacrifice of US service personnel and has been cared for and celebrated accordingly ever since.
Rightly so.
As much as I wince and cringe at some of Twilight's accounts of downright rude and unpleasant treatment by British people, a small child saying, 'you talk funny' doesn't strike me as particularly galling. I've had little kids say similar things to me about my South Walian accent and not been offended.
If the child had said, 'You talk with a funny US accent,' I could understand the reaction.
On the tourist thing ... I don't think an American wearing a Hawaiian shirt in London or anywhere else would turn a hair - not these days, in the 1950s or '60s perhaps. No, rather I think it was used as a shorthand for a particular type of US tourist that - rightly or wrongly - British people would find aggravating.
There are British tourists abroad who are equally aggravating. It doesn't mean that we find all US tourists or all Americans aggravating.
The stereotype is a minority. The aggravation may be in the eye of the beholder.
As for Pond War style anti-American sentiments here on Ship. Yes, there have been all too many examples and I've been very guilty of it at times.
I'm very sorry that the Twilights didn't get a better reception over here and if there was anything I could do to make amends for that, I would.
On the 'loudness' or apparant 'brashness' thing and national stereotypes in general, my eldest was intrigued to learn during a recent trip to Japan that non-English speaking Japanese were said to be able to distinguish between British and American visitors and sometimes between British and other Europeans. She was told that Americans tended to be larger and louder - and inadvertently intimidating. American accents sounded rather harsh and strident to their ears and although they didn't believe that US visitors were ought to cause intentional harm or offence, they sometimes found them to act in ways that were culturally inappropriate or which could be construed as rude.
My first thought was that they'd obviously not come across a bunch of British lager louts in Benidorm or loud and lairy hen-party groups or lads on the razz. Or the type of British tourist who insists on talking.loudly.and.slowly.to.someone.who.doesn't.speak.a.word.of.English.as.if.this.will.make.them.understand.
The big culturally inappropriate action by Americans (and others) in Japan is tipping. Which is a cultural minefield in whichever country you visit (and whatever nationality we are it's probably the most important thing to find out about the nation you're visiting). In Japan leaving a tip is highly offensive - the implication being that you consider the management to not be paying their staff enough or that the service you received was in some way better than the service they'd have given for any other customer. It's not unheard of for wait staff to chase down someone who's left loose change on the table to return it. I even managed to get chased down without leaving a tip ... and I still don't quite understand what happened except it was something to do with "wrong change" and the waitress left happy after she'd exchanged some of the coins in the handful of change I'd taken out of my pocket for coins which had exactly the same value.
I'm thinking maybe one reason we Americans offend British people so much is that we just don't have the same regard for "proper" as you do.
I think there's truth in that. I've lived in the US for getting on for two decades, and my teeth still get set on edge a bit when I go to a restaurant and some cheerful young waiter introduces themselves as Bill or Kaylie or whatever, asks after my health, and generally acts like they are a close friend.
I've never felt offended by it, but the friendliness can feel like flirting. It typically isn't, and I never assume it is.
I've noticed reciprocating the friendliness results in better service.
I'm very happy when anyone serving is friendly. I always aim to be friendly myself so appreciate it in others. Very rarely does anyone cross a boundary and Mrs M and I have had some lovely meals that have been enhanced by those bringing the food to us.
On the 'loudness' or apparant 'brashness' thing and national stereotypes in general, my eldest was intrigued to learn during a recent trip to Japan that non-English speaking Japanese were said to be able to distinguish between British and American visitors and sometimes between British and other Europeans. She was told that Americans tended to be larger and louder - and inadvertently intimidating. American accents sounded rather harsh and strident to their ears and although they didn't believe that US visitors were ought to cause intentional harm or offence, they sometimes found them to act in ways that were culturally inappropriate or which could be construed as rude.
My first thought was that they'd obviously not come across a bunch of British lager louts in Benidorm or loud and lairy hen-party groups or lads on the razz. Or the type of British tourist who insists on talking.loudly.and.slowly.to.someone.who.doesn't.speak.a.word.of.English.as.if.this.will.make.them.understand.
Well yes. Because lager louts in Benidorm don't get as far as Japan. You don't go to Japan for the sun and the beach.
The more this thread goes on, the more I'd like to take Twilight to Nantwich where the inhabitants tended a plot of initially very boggy ground where an American airman died when his Typhoon crashed after his breathing equipment failed on a high altitude exercise.
Gradually, it developed into a lovingly tended memorial to all US war dead and the town takes very seriously an annual commemoration for this pilot and for all US personnel who died during WW2.
At the time, it was believed from the erratic motion of the falling plane that the pilot had recovered consciousness in time to steer it away from the houses and into the marsh beside the river Weaver. More recent research suggests that he wouldn't have recovered consciousness at all. Nevertheless, the site became associated with the bravery and sacrifice of US service personnel and has been cared for and celebrated accordingly ever since.
Rightly so.
As much as I wince and cringe at some of Twilight's accounts of downright rude and unpleasant treatment by British people, a small child saying, 'you talk funny' doesn't strike me as particularly galling. I've had little kids say similar things to me about my South Walian accent and not been offended.
If the child had said, 'You talk with a funny US accent,' I could understand the reaction.
I'm very sorry that the Twilights didn't get a better reception over here and if there was anything I could do to make amends for that, I would.
Thanks for your kind words GG. I probably made everything sound worse than it was, for example the little English girl saying "Why don't you speak properly?" amused me and the "You talk funny" was, as I said, a supposition of mine if the situation was reversed, or what I imagined an American child would say.
My years there couldn't have been all bad because I remain an Anglophile, still reading books set in England, glued to PBS every Sunday night watching whatever they've borrowed from the BBC. I loved riding the bus and eavesdropping on everyday conversations that sounded faintly Monty Python-ish to my ears. I was allowed to take free classes at Oxford under your wonderful continuing education program. I ate the best Indian food ever in Banbury. I discovered wine-gums and Dime bars at the newsagents. I read four or five newspapers everyday and took a shameful interest in the scandals of the Queen's annus horribilis. I walked to the farm store almost daily and appreciated the breath taking beauty of the country. The dogs, cats, chickens, and cows, loved me. Only the sheep were standoffish.
IMO, the traveller should attempt to learn a reasonable amount about the host country, especially in regarding common interactions. And should behave respectfully.
Members of the host country should have tolerance for travellers not perfectly blending in.
And both should be aware that regardless of how right they think their own behaviour is, the other group thinks this as well.
Though, the onus is more on the traveller as they are making the choice.
The big culturally inappropriate action by Americans (and others) in Japan is tipping. Which is a cultural minefield in whichever country you visit (and whatever nationality we are it's probably the most important thing to find out about the nation you're visiting).
I do remember it being very straightforward in Japan when we went there some years ago. But it can be quite difficult to get clear, consistent, reliable advice on this issue for some other countries. You consult three sources and get three slightly different answers, or you get something like "not common among locals but increasingly expected from foreigners". Or not at all for bars, small amounts for normal restaurants, but consistently with North American standards for expensive restaurants with an international clientele (as one guidebook once put it). I don't *think* we ate at any restaurants in the last category on our last trip but I'm not 100% sure.
I suppose the underlying problem is the fiction that a tip is a gratuity, at the discretion and in the amount thought appropriate by the giver. The reality is that most cultures have quite fixed expectations of whether, when, and how much, and if these were more clearly communicated life would be much easier for everyone.
If everyone was paid a regular, living wage it would be even easier for everyone. No one should have to depend on the kindness of strangers to feed their families and pay their bills.
I hate tipping. I was embarrassed to receive them during my short stint as a waitress and I'm always embarrassed to give tips as they make me feel like a creepy sort of Lady Bountiful, deciding who is deserving and of how much.
I’ve never worked in the hospitality industry, so I don’t really have any sense of how people in the industry feel about it here. It’s become such a standardized thing in Canada that it feels like just a predictable part of the cost of the meal/haircut/whatever from my perspective.
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I can't think of anywhere in the UK with that many war graves of any nationality.
You have my sympathy and for that matter my admiration - I'd be in the psych wing. Except I'd be too afraid I couldn't afford to be.
The local Parks and Recreation program here does a good summer day camp, which is subsidized by local government and is aimed at lower income families. It also provides summer jobs to older teens; my son worked as a day camp counselor one summer, and other kids I know have done things like park maintenance. The local network of YMCAs also does summer/out-of-school programs (as well as after school programs), and provides scholarships and other financial assistance for them.
It's a debt in response to lives lost and broken, forged in bloody fellowship. To disrespect them is dishonorable at the very least, but to be annoyed at annoying behavior is human. American war graves near Australia are in the Coral Sea.
Never have I been so relieved as the day he fired me.
So let me get this straight. When you said:
None of the English that were complaining were here on the Ship? It had precisely nothing to do with the previous content of the thread?
You might think stupid pills are in abundance, but that suggests you swallowed a few before counting and mixed a couple of non sequitur capsules in as well.
Personally I don't think it's stupid to assume that a post in a thread has some general connection with what has gone before, but apparently now I can't assume that your contributions to the conversation are relevant.
The American cemetery is just outside of Colleville which has since WW2 added to its name that of Montgomery, Colleville-Montgomery.
These times must not come back.
--Chiming in with what other American Shipmates have said. When and where I grew up, it was still expected that most kids would have an adult member of the household available after school, on vacations, when a kid was out sick, possibly even for a daytime meeting with a teacher or principal.
Some kids had an adult or an older sibling. Some went to day camp, sleep-away camp, various classes, vacation Bible school, etc.. Some probably went to the library. Some worked--often picking berries, having been collected early in the morning by a repurposed school bus, and dropped off afterwards, and some families used the money to pay for the kid's school clothes. Others babysat. Some kids were more or
less on their own, alone or hanging out with other kids. Etc.
--As to doing things on vacation: If we have any (paid) vacation time at all, we often take a stay-cation*. We may stay at home, catching up on household projects, doctor appointments, surgery (as LC said), and sleep. We may play tourist around town or in nearby areas, just for the day.
--I'm going to say something, and will try to say it respectfully. IME, it periodically needs to be said; and this seems to be a really good time to do that; and I'm in a state of mind where I think I can navigate it. So please bear with me.
America isn't necessarily what you think it is. In a past convo, someone said that the US "is aspirational" for many folks. That's true. But it's not *just* that. Any more than *your* various countries--which *are* aspirational/inspirational for many Americans--are just:
--literature, music, and other arts;
--Stonehenge, King Arthur, and Picadilly Square;
--the Sydney Opera House, Great Barrier Reef, and Crocodile Dundee;
--Paris, wine, and the French Alps;
--maple syrup, moose, and the Calgary Stampede;
--the Great Wall, the Terra Cotta Army, and silk;
--Mt. Kilimanjaro, diamonds, and Timbuktu
--Sun Goddess Amaterasu, sushi, and tech;
--Pyramids, ruins, and lucha libre (masked fighting);
etc. I tried to think of where I know Shipmates live, and chose details accordingly. I realized I could go on for a long time, so stopped. Apologies to anyone left out. (And remember: I'm saying these countries *aren't* just other people's image of them.)
A good deal of negative feeling toward the US have been expressed on the Ship, over the years: directly, indirectly, loudly, and whispered. That is very grating for American Shipmates, over the years. God knows evil things have been done in the name of the US, are being done, and will be done in the future. Unfortunately, democracy doesn't mean you can necessarily change things. But America isn't just the bad things, any more than your countries are just whatever bad things are in their history, present, and future. I'm not going to list things, but you can all think of negative things about your countries' past, present, and future. And how it might feel to have that rubbed in your faces, over and over.
So maybe we can cut each other's countries--and each other--some slack. There's more to us and our countries than any of that.
*In a past convo, I explained that, and LC and others did, too. Non-Americans seemed to have a hard time believing it.
I know exactly what you mean, but the comment jars with me. I can't help thinking that these times are with us somewhere on the planet for almost every single day between the end of the war in Europe and today.
* A chain of camera and photography shops.
It behoves us, however, as human beings ,and not just people of faith, to do our best to make the world we all live in a better place.
It may be that perfection can only be achieved in Heaven, but we have to continue to work towards it.
To my mind, Curiosity Killed had every right to be annoyed by rude Americans demanding directions, but I can't quite understand Alan's example of the bad American as one who wears Hawaiian shirts in London.
If the average American encountered a British tourist wearing white knee socks and shorts in Texas we would smile and be delighted. Once while in Mexico, wearing a West Virginia T-shirt, a couple of Mexican men pointed at me and shouted, "Possum pie!" We all laughed in joy. I was pleased they knew something about my state even if it was a ridiculous stereotype from 50's TV.
I'm thinking maybe one reason we Americans offend British people so much is that we just don't have the same regard for "proper" as you do.
I once had a little tiny girl in England ask me, "Why don't you speak proper English?" She sounded a bit huffy about it. I think an American child in the reverse situation would just say, "You talk funny," and seem happy about it.
I'm not sure I've ever met an American in a Hawaiian shirt, except when wearing that shirt was a bit of a gag (I think it was Scot who arranged for people meeting up for a Santa Fe meet to wear Hawaiian shirts so that they could be recognised ... which makes the point for me, the majority of Americans passing through the airport would not be wearing such shirts and so the chance of going up to a complete stranger thinking they're a Shipmate and getting it wrong was low).
Yes! While we were in England I heard a comedian on the radio describe an old WWII vet: "Twitching by the fire, muttering about those damn Yanks coming around taking our girls with their canned peaches."
We loved that. Just recently when hubs and I couldn't find canned peaches here in the supermarket, I said, "Now how will we ever get British girls?"
I work with several for whom a Hawaiian shirt is their choice of everyday garb, plus a couple for whom such a shirt would be a sober and muted choice. But they are a relatively small minority.
There's another stereotype of the American who learns that you're from England, and immediately asks if you know his good friends the Smiths who live in London. I've actually had this very conversation (with a lovely rather maternal American lady who seemed to feel obliged to chat to my then-student self during some dreary period hanging around in an airport). I had to explain to her that whilst I did live in London, so did several million other people, and that I knew where Hampstead Heath was, but had never to my knowledge been to whichever street her friends lived on. (I've had the same conversation with several American friends who poke fun at this stereotype, but I think the lady in question was being quite genuine.)
But, of course, the thousands of Americans I've sat by in airports who have been normally polite don't stick in one's memory.
I think there's truth in that. I've lived in the US for getting on for two decades, and my teeth still get set on edge a bit when I go to a restaurant and some cheerful young waiter introduces themselves as Bill or Kaylie or whatever, asks after my health, and generally acts like they are a close friend.
Except for when my dad was stationed in Okinawa, which hardly counts since I was so young, I've lived here my whole life, and I wish to God servers weren't told to do this. Ever since I read this article by an American living in Finland I've wished I had been born there -- not having to say "hello" to everyone in the office every time you run across them sounds like heaven. But I think if I moved there it would feel weird to be around so many people not sporting the stereotypical American cheery (over-)friendliness.
I had that kind of thing happen to me frequently when I lived in Northern Ireland. I would be standing in a bus queue chatting with those nearby, and someone, noticing I was American, would say, "Do you know so-and-so? He lives in New Jersey."
This never bothered me. I just said "No, I'm sorry," and let it go. It wasn't something to get annoyed about.
I've noticed reciprocating the friendliness results in better service.
As for "Do you know So-and-so?" I got this about celebrities when people here found out I was from Southern California (ha! as if), and I get it about synodical leadership now that I'm in the Midwest. One guy seriously thought we went to lunch with the church president every week or some such, and got pissy because he thought we had "undue influence"! Like he'd know who we were.
Typically, most of their income comes from tips. Any base pay is usually very low. So they have ample reason to make nice with the customers.
Please note that these two comedians are noted bastards who pick on everybody, including, notably, South Africans, posh English people, and Nelson Mandela. I find some of the Mandela ones a scream, but they also cross a line for me on racism. That's not their only sketches that cross the line on racism either...
I bloody hate that about America and I bet most of you do too. Like, every time its mentioned I want to rant and rage. I am not an introvert, but my default position is 'shut up go away'. I would prefer to tip people who leave me the hell alone!!!!!
The one time I was truly enraged, though, was when I did a day bus tour, and the package put together by the bus company asked us to tip the driver. Myself and the other Australians on the tour basically wanted to say how about you fucking pay your employee properly instead of asking us to cough up extra money for him? It was one thing for the driver himself to ask, but having his employer ask was beyond the pale.
Nobody should ask to be tipped. Spoils the point.
Gradually, it developed into a lovingly tended memorial to all US war dead and the town takes very seriously an annual commemoration for this pilot and for all US personnel who died during WW2.
At the time, it was believed from the erratic motion of the falling plane that the pilot had recovered consciousness in time to steer it away from the houses and into the marsh beside the river Weaver. More recent research suggests that he wouldn't have recovered consciousness at all. Nevertheless, the site became associated with the bravery and sacrifice of US service personnel and has been cared for and celebrated accordingly ever since.
Rightly so.
As much as I wince and cringe at some of Twilight's accounts of downright rude and unpleasant treatment by British people, a small child saying, 'you talk funny' doesn't strike me as particularly galling. I've had little kids say similar things to me about my South Walian accent and not been offended.
If the child had said, 'You talk with a funny US accent,' I could understand the reaction.
On the tourist thing ... I don't think an American wearing a Hawaiian shirt in London or anywhere else would turn a hair - not these days, in the 1950s or '60s perhaps. No, rather I think it was used as a shorthand for a particular type of US tourist that - rightly or wrongly - British people would find aggravating.
There are British tourists abroad who are equally aggravating. It doesn't mean that we find all US tourists or all Americans aggravating.
The stereotype is a minority. The aggravation may be in the eye of the beholder.
As for Pond War style anti-American sentiments here on Ship. Yes, there have been all too many examples and I've been very guilty of it at times.
I'm very sorry that the Twilights didn't get a better reception over here and if there was anything I could do to make amends for that, I would.
My first thought was that they'd obviously not come across a bunch of British lager louts in Benidorm or loud and lairy hen-party groups or lads on the razz. Or the type of British tourist who insists on talking.loudly.and.slowly.to.someone.who.doesn't.speak.a.word.of.English.as.if.this.will.make.them.understand.
Well yes. Because lager louts in Benidorm don't get as far as Japan. You don't go to Japan for the sun and the beach.
Thanks for your kind words GG. I probably made everything sound worse than it was, for example the little English girl saying "Why don't you speak properly?" amused me and the "You talk funny" was, as I said, a supposition of mine if the situation was reversed, or what I imagined an American child would say.
My years there couldn't have been all bad because I remain an Anglophile, still reading books set in England, glued to PBS every Sunday night watching whatever they've borrowed from the BBC. I loved riding the bus and eavesdropping on everyday conversations that sounded faintly Monty Python-ish to my ears. I was allowed to take free classes at Oxford under your wonderful continuing education program. I ate the best Indian food ever in Banbury. I discovered wine-gums and Dime bars at the newsagents. I read four or five newspapers everyday and took a shameful interest in the scandals of the Queen's annus horribilis. I walked to the farm store almost daily and appreciated the breath taking beauty of the country. The dogs, cats, chickens, and cows, loved me. Only the sheep were standoffish.
Members of the host country should have tolerance for travellers not perfectly blending in.
And both should be aware that regardless of how right they think their own behaviour is, the other group thinks this as well.
Though, the onus is more on the traveller as they are making the choice.
I do remember it being very straightforward in Japan when we went there some years ago. But it can be quite difficult to get clear, consistent, reliable advice on this issue for some other countries. You consult three sources and get three slightly different answers, or you get something like "not common among locals but increasingly expected from foreigners". Or not at all for bars, small amounts for normal restaurants, but consistently with North American standards for expensive restaurants with an international clientele (as one guidebook once put it). I don't *think* we ate at any restaurants in the last category on our last trip but I'm not 100% sure.
I suppose the underlying problem is the fiction that a tip is a gratuity, at the discretion and in the amount thought appropriate by the giver. The reality is that most cultures have quite fixed expectations of whether, when, and how much, and if these were more clearly communicated life would be much easier for everyone.
I hate tipping. I was embarrassed to receive them during my short stint as a waitress and I'm always embarrassed to give tips as they make me feel like a creepy sort of Lady Bountiful, deciding who is deserving and of how much.