I’ve never worked in the hospitality industry, so I don’t really have any sense of how people in the industry feel about it here. It’s become such a standardized thing in Canada that it feels like just a predictable part of the cost of the meal/haircut/whatever from my perspective.
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
If everyone was paid a regular, living wage it would be even easier for everyone. No one should have to depend on the kindness of strangers to feed their families and pay their bills.
I hate tipping. I was embarrassed to receive them during my short stint as a waitress and I'm always embarrassed to give tips as they make me feel like a creepy sort of Lady Bountiful, deciding who is deserving and of how much.
I hate this for just the same reason, but we overcome our creepy feelings because we've been (after a sort) in similar positions to those serving us, and we know the difference the $ can make. And so we over-tip in a pretty big way (at least, I'm pretty sure they fight over us when they see us coming).
I would totally be up for abolishing tipping and increasing proper wages by a large amount. Let the server keep his/her dignity.
There's another stereotype of the American who learns that you're from England, and immediately asks if you know his good friends the Smiths who live in London.
I had that kind of thing happen to me frequently when I lived in Northern Ireland. I would be standing in a bus queue chatting with those nearby, and someone, noticing I was American, would say, "Do you know so-and-so? He lives in New Jersey."
This never bothered me. I just said "No, I'm sorry," and let it go. It wasn't something to get annoyed about.
I was working in Haiti on a mission hospital. An USA colleague asked me if I knew x from Australia. We are small but were approaching 20 million people at the time.
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
I’ve never worked in the hospitality industry, so I don’t really have any sense of how people in the industry feel about it here. It’s become such a standardized thing in Canada that it feels like just a predictable part of the cost of the meal/haircut/whatever from my perspective.
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
I wonder if that is true or if it perception and, if true, is it true across the board?
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
And do all tips get declared on tax returns?
Yes, they do. And if said tips are not as large as the nameless bureaucrats in DC think they should be, said bureaucrats just assess taxes on the amount they believe the server(s) in question should have earned. It is a terrible system.
Sometimes, the kind of cafe, pizza parlor, etc. where you pick your food up at the register has a tip jar right there. That doesn't bring in what tipping at the table would, but it's something.
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
And do all tips get declared on tax returns?
Yes, they do. And if said tips are not as large as the nameless bureaucrats in DC think they should be, said bureaucrats just assess taxes on the amount they believe the server(s) in question should have earned. It is a terrible system.
I was informed of this taxation system by a barman in Canada. It just seems ridiculous.
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
And do all tips get declared on tax returns?
Yes, they do. And if said tips are not as large as the nameless bureaucrats in DC think they should be, said bureaucrats just assess taxes on the amount they believe the server(s) in question should have earned. It is a terrible system.
Why do I suspect that there's massive tax avoidance going on at the same time as some other poor sods being shafted?
If the restaurant staff declare their tip amounts on tax forms the CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) accepts the self declaration. They don't accept someone declaring no tips or widely deviating from co-workers. Not sure how that's not fair. Why should anyone not declare 30 to 50% of their income? The level of hourly wage is another matter in my view
Also in Canada: if the tips are pooled and distributed by the employer, they're pensionable and insurable. So they're taxed, but that entitles the employee to slightly better pension and/or (un)employment benefits. Of course, some employees would still prefer immediate tax-free cash over a future ill-defined benefit.
The downside is that employers use all sorts of illegal and barely legal methods to take tip money away e.g. taking a percentage for breakage or paying for dine-and-dash. And that is why even when I pay with plastic, I usually leave a cash tip. At least that way, my server gets to decide what to do with it - declare it, share it, keep it, whatever.
I spent a few summers as a housekeeper and desk clerk at a unionized establishment that was explicit about tips not being required or expected precisely because we were paid a fair wage. It was still delightful to get the occasional tip. Most delightful was the very jet lagged German visitor who tipped me $20 (in 1990!) for delivering extra pillows.
If the restaurant staff declare their tip amounts on tax forms the CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) accepts the self declaration. They don't accept someone declaring no tips or widely deviating from co-workers. Not sure how that's not fair. Why should anyone not declare 30 to 50% of their income? The level of hourly wage is another matter in my view
I suspect that any poor bugger who for whatever reason isn't getting the tips he is expected to get is accused of under reporting. He's the poor sod being shafted. Meanwhile someone at the top of the tip distribution can get away with genuinely underreporting.
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
And do all tips get declared on tax returns?
Yes, they do. And if said tips are not as large as the nameless bureaucrats in DC think they should be, said bureaucrats just assess taxes on the amount they believe the server(s) in question should have earned. It is a terrible system.
Why do I suspect that there's massive tax avoidance going on at the same time as some other poor sods being shafted?
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
And do all tips get declared on tax returns?
Yes, they do. And if said tips are not as large as the nameless bureaucrats in DC think they should be, said bureaucrats just assess taxes on the amount they believe the server(s) in question should have earned. It is a terrible system.
Why do I suspect that there's massive tax avoidance going on at the same time as some other poor sods being shafted?
Which is why waiters all drive Ferraris?
There's a long distance between "can afford to live reasonably comfortably in NY City" and the sort of conspicuous wealth you're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a handful of waiters, there and in DC, maybe SF too, at very high end restaurants who have customers who tip lavishly and in some cases not all that money makes it onto their tax return.
Because the CRA has wide access to financial records, including banking, and the business's, and they predict what is going with AI, they probably do pretty well. I get auditted about something every year. They're not terrible to deal with, and often quite pleasant really. Example: I had a large "late payment" fee issue with them, explained in a letter how this made no sense given the circumstances, and the principle of fairness had them decide in my favour. Not that a testimonial is data and that a waiter/waitress would be treated as nicely.
The more this thread goes on, the more I'd like to take Twilight to Nantwich where the inhabitants tended a plot of initially very boggy ground where an American airman died when his Typhoon crashed after his breathing equipment failed on a high altitude exercise.
Here's a moving story about an American pilot after whom we named a school, in the town where I grew up. One of the older guys in my church, who died fairly recently, was one of the school children whose lives were saved by the pilots actions. The pilot is still remembered.
Here's a moving story about an American pilot after whom we named a school, in the town where I grew up. One of the older guys in my church, who died fairly recently, was one of the school children whose lives were saved by the pilots actions. The pilot is still remembered.
Something similar happened near Washington, DC in the 1940s.
Simon Toad - you are undoubtedly correct when you say that World War 2 and the millions who died have not ended cruelty, torture and enslavement of others. Those of us of a certain age will remember in varying ways the horrors of the Second World War, what led up to it and what came after it. There are now many others who still have to learn much about it and war in general.
It behoves us, however, as human beings ,and not just people of faith, to do our best to make the world we all live in a better place.
It may be that perfection can only be achieved in Heaven, but we have to continue to work towards it.
@Forthview I regretted my comment. It was right, but it was obvious and trite (which I am looking up to check if I'm using the word right). Yep. It was trite. Your response, on the other hand, was full of grace.
There is a really hilarious series of skethches done by Harry (enfield) & Paul (whitehouse) about a stereotypical pair of American tourists in London. They are kind of a gentle poke, I reckon. Here is an example.
Please note that these two comedians are noted bastards who pick on everybody, including, notably, South Africans, posh English people, and Nelson Mandela. I find some of the Mandela ones a scream, but they also cross a line for me on racism. That's not their only sketches that cross the line on racism either...
I absolutely love this sketch, but not for the snide 'look at those stupid Americans crossing boundaries' response that the comedians are going for. Harry Enfield is a masterful mimic, and a masterful observer of people and he has a certain type of American down. When I look at that sketch in particular what hits me in the eye is the fundamental kindness and decency of the two Americans. They cross boundaries like a Christian should cross boundaries - to form a relationship with a stranger. The stranger is uncomfortable, the boundary crossing is extreme, the sexualised banter both gentle and outrageously inappropriate, and that's the comedy. But a relationship, however brief, is formed.
The exchange that for me shows Enfield's genius is when the husband compliments his wife, his wife is pleased by the compliment, and the husband, oblivious, turns it into a joke. The camera focuses on the wife's reaction. I love that. I wish Enfield wasn't such a nasty bastard. The other sketches with this couple don't have the same quality for me.
Here's a moving story about an American pilot after whom we named a school, in the town where I grew up. One of the older guys in my church, who died fairly recently, was one of the school children whose lives were saved by the pilots actions. The pilot is still remembered.
Funnily enough there's similar in the very place that started this tangent. I live just along the valley from Upper Heyford in an equally small and rural place. In Upper Heyford churchyard there's a memorial to the two USAF personnel killed in 1992 when their plane came down short of the runway (narrowly missing one of the pubs and the bus stop). That still gets lovingly looked after every year by the villagers. "From all your friends at Upper Heyford"
I am trying out a new podcast today, Pax Britannica, a narrative history of the British Empire beginning with James I/VI. My motive is two-fold. Good Simon wishes to further his knowledge of such a pivotal institution in the life of his country, and perhaps dispel some false beliefs he holds.
Bad Simon wants to mine the history to bolster his argument that the British Empire was basically crap, and a confidence trick beefed up by the Americans to further the glory of their petty rebellion. Bad Simon likes this argument because it slags off both the USA and the UK. Bad Simon thinks like Puck in A Midsummer Night's Dream
Sometimes, the kind of cafe, pizza parlor, etc. where you pick your food up at the register has a tip jar right there. That doesn't bring in what tipping at the table would, but it's something.
When I worked at a Starbucks location in Atlanta, GA, we had a tip jar near the cash registers. In addition to taking orders from the usually impatient self-involved jerks, I had to keep an eagle eye on the tip jar. I can't count the number of times some idiot assumed the tip jar (that had a sign on it, in big letters: TIPS), was for getting change for their purchases! Or, just outright stealing from it.
Don't get me started about the assistant managers who stole some of the tips so that they didn't have to share with coworkers they didn't like...
Comments
The people I know who have worked as waiters all prefer tipping because, regardless of the fact that they sometimes get stiffed by bad customers, they think they make more money with the tip system than they'd make if they were paid a better wage and tips were removed. (Basically, they make more money than people in similar non-tipped customer service roles such as shop assistants.)
I hate this for just the same reason, but we overcome our creepy feelings because we've been (after a sort) in similar positions to those serving us, and we know the difference the $ can make. And so we over-tip in a pretty big way (at least, I'm pretty sure they fight over us when they see us coming).
I would totally be up for abolishing tipping and increasing proper wages by a large amount. Let the server keep his/her dignity.
I was working in Haiti on a mission hospital. An USA colleague asked me if I knew x from Australia. We are small but were approaching 20 million people at the time.
It was my high school history teacher...
And do all tips get declared on tax returns?
I was informed of this taxation system by a barman in Canada. It just seems ridiculous.
Why do I suspect that there's massive tax avoidance going on at the same time as some other poor sods being shafted?
The downside is that employers use all sorts of illegal and barely legal methods to take tip money away e.g. taking a percentage for breakage or paying for dine-and-dash. And that is why even when I pay with plastic, I usually leave a cash tip. At least that way, my server gets to decide what to do with it - declare it, share it, keep it, whatever.
I spent a few summers as a housekeeper and desk clerk at a unionized establishment that was explicit about tips not being required or expected precisely because we were paid a fair wage. It was still delightful to get the occasional tip. Most delightful was the very jet lagged German visitor who tipped me $20 (in 1990!) for delivering extra pillows.
I suspect that any poor bugger who for whatever reason isn't getting the tips he is expected to get is accused of under reporting. He's the poor sod being shafted. Meanwhile someone at the top of the tip distribution can get away with genuinely underreporting.
There's a long distance between "can afford to live reasonably comfortably in NY City" and the sort of conspicuous wealth you're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a handful of waiters, there and in DC, maybe SF too, at very high end restaurants who have customers who tip lavishly and in some cases not all that money makes it onto their tax return.
DT
HH
Here's a moving story about an American pilot after whom we named a school, in the town where I grew up. One of the older guys in my church, who died fairly recently, was one of the school children whose lives were saved by the pilots actions. The pilot is still remembered.
Something similar happened near Washington, DC in the 1940s.
@Forthview I regretted my comment. It was right, but it was obvious and trite (which I am looking up to check if I'm using the word right). Yep. It was trite. Your response, on the other hand, was full of grace.
I absolutely love this sketch, but not for the snide 'look at those stupid Americans crossing boundaries' response that the comedians are going for. Harry Enfield is a masterful mimic, and a masterful observer of people and he has a certain type of American down. When I look at that sketch in particular what hits me in the eye is the fundamental kindness and decency of the two Americans. They cross boundaries like a Christian should cross boundaries - to form a relationship with a stranger. The stranger is uncomfortable, the boundary crossing is extreme, the sexualised banter both gentle and outrageously inappropriate, and that's the comedy. But a relationship, however brief, is formed.
The exchange that for me shows Enfield's genius is when the husband compliments his wife, his wife is pleased by the compliment, and the husband, oblivious, turns it into a joke. The camera focuses on the wife's reaction. I love that. I wish Enfield wasn't such a nasty bastard. The other sketches with this couple don't have the same quality for me.
Funnily enough there's similar in the very place that started this tangent. I live just along the valley from Upper Heyford in an equally small and rural place. In Upper Heyford churchyard there's a memorial to the two USAF personnel killed in 1992 when their plane came down short of the runway (narrowly missing one of the pubs and the bus stop). That still gets lovingly looked after every year by the villagers. "From all your friends at Upper Heyford"
Bad Simon wants to mine the history to bolster his argument that the British Empire was basically crap, and a confidence trick beefed up by the Americans to further the glory of their petty rebellion. Bad Simon likes this argument because it slags off both the USA and the UK. Bad Simon thinks like Puck in A Midsummer Night's Dream
Poor Smeagol. Smeagol only wants to know more about the Empire, precious.
When I worked at a Starbucks location in Atlanta, GA, we had a tip jar near the cash registers. In addition to taking orders from the usually impatient self-involved jerks, I had to keep an eagle eye on the tip jar. I can't count the number of times some idiot assumed the tip jar (that had a sign on it, in big letters: TIPS), was for getting change for their purchases! Or, just outright stealing from it.
Don't get me started about the assistant managers who stole some of the tips so that they didn't have to share with coworkers they didn't like...
Ugh! Tips...
Got it in one.
You've nailed it.