Obnoxious old man picked the wrong old lady to harass
windsofchange
Shipmate
So I'm at this grocery store yesterday that I go to regularly because it's out of the way and rarely crowded.
I'm really stressed out, because I'm listening to the news about all the protests, and worrying about what's going to happen next.
I turn off the radio, grab my face mask, and start putting it on as I get out of the car.
In the car next to me, this old* guy (*probably my age; I'm old too!) is watching me, and he calls out to me, "You know, those face masks don't work."
I sigh, having done this same conversation online with idiots online, and prepare to ignore him, when he adds, "because you're still gorgeous!" Then gives me this big smile and wink, like he thinks he's Mr. Hot Stuff of the nursing home.
At that point, I really started seething, and the resulting words out of my mouth weren't pretty.
Honestly, do men in 2020 really think that kind of thing works? Did it *ever* work?
And does anyone else understand why it irritated the livin' crap out of me? All that was missing was, "Smile! You'll look so much better!"
I'm really stressed out, because I'm listening to the news about all the protests, and worrying about what's going to happen next.
I turn off the radio, grab my face mask, and start putting it on as I get out of the car.
In the car next to me, this old* guy (*probably my age; I'm old too!) is watching me, and he calls out to me, "You know, those face masks don't work."
I sigh, having done this same conversation online with idiots online, and prepare to ignore him, when he adds, "because you're still gorgeous!" Then gives me this big smile and wink, like he thinks he's Mr. Hot Stuff of the nursing home.
At that point, I really started seething, and the resulting words out of my mouth weren't pretty.
Honestly, do men in 2020 really think that kind of thing works? Did it *ever* work?
And does anyone else understand why it irritated the livin' crap out of me? All that was missing was, "Smile! You'll look so much better!"
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
"Thank you" would have been all that was required.
No, I didn't feel like giving him a "thank you." Random, unsolicited "compliments" from men I don't know make me super nervous. Call me crazy.
That kind of thing can freak me out, too.
Thanks!! Glad someone gets it.
Yes, I suppose that would be more socially acceptable than suggesting he get back in his car and finish what he'd obviously started before going into the store. (Not that I actually said that -- I think -- but it would have been accurate.)
I also get it. Some men feel that they are entitled to say any little thing that pops into their tiny little brains to women they don't know. Back in the fogs of antiquity (1990), I was riding a Seattle city bus and was scowling and depressed because I had just endured a grueling therapy session. I wanted to be left alone but some man seated nearby called out to me, "Honey, you're too beautiful to be making such an angry face! Give me a smile, darling!"
I ignored him, hoping he would take the hint. Of course not. He was on a mission, by golly. He said something similar and I looked him right in the face and said, "Eff off and leave me alone, you prick!"
I got kicked off the bus for using "threatening language". So, yeah, I absolutely get it.
Yes! That's just it! And I've gotten the "smile, it's not that bad!" a few times as well!!
I may need to get that on a T-shirt!!
What would she be thanking him for? Being a jerk?
I guess I was out sick the day they taught that in How To Be A Woman 101.
...though I just rewatched the series finale of "Downton Abbey", and I'm having fun imagining various women there speaking The5thMary's "Eff off and leave me alone, you prick!"
Lady Violet (the Dowager Duchess) is the obvious choice for a priceless delivery. But I think each of the women in the top couple of tiers of characters could put her own marvelous spin on the line. Better yet: get ALL of them together to surround a creep, yelling and muttering and growling the line.
(What, me? Issues?
Where's a brick wall when you need one?
Asher
Just a heads-up: with the pandemic; quarantine; the crap in (Wash.) DC; Minneapolis, and Mr. Floyd, and all the fallout; #MeToo, both in daily life and ongoing revelations; etc., I suspect a whole lot of women are really on edge right now and will be for some time. Might be wise for men posting on this thread to post very carefully.
Yes.
I was very pretty once upon a time, I never thanked men for compliments - just commented back on some aspect of their appearance. Which always put them on the back foot.
I can really see the usefulness of the hijab!
I don't think this constitutes stereotyping.
One of these regulars was a wiry old guy who I had a bit of a soft spot for, because his accent suggested he came from the same part of 'Lunnon' as my dear departed Dad. Now this guy was the furthest thing from a sleaze that I could possibly imagine, but one day he tried to strike up a conversation with a couple of very young girls who were working on the mats next to us, and they were...reluctant, and awkward, and nonetheless polite while still being reticent, and basically you know exactly the kind of thing. I mean, they were eighteen, or something! Well, this guy wound up by gently scolding them for their manner, and telling them they might as well smile, because it didn't cost anything!
It it source of ongoing regret to me that I kept quiet, instead of standing up for the right of those girls to just be able to attend the gym to exercise, unmolested - that I didn't tell him that they owed him nothing, not even notice, that it was up to them when they smiled and who they smiled at and why, that it was not their moral duty to ensure that they were pretty and pleasing to every man they might tangentially encounter on their way through life. Because he never tried any of that crap on me, seemed to regard me as a real person, so he might have listened to me, might have learned.
I wish I had stopped and pointed out that I was chronologically qualified to be the mother of any of them, and would they now be going to proudly inform their actual mothers that they were now one with the men who had harassed and commented on her (oh yes) in the day (and perhaps yet).
I suspect both plenty of both men and women are feeling on edge. I also imagine plenty of women are glad to have the chance to post here in a strong, unrestrained way, because our voice is often belittled or ignored, with men 'correcting' us, speaking over us, interpreting our lives for us, telling us how we should respond, and this happens a lot on the Ship.
I'd say as a general thing, not just for this thread, at this time, it would be wise for men to post very carefully. In general, listen to women's perspectives when they talk about these things. Don't assume they're wrong. Don't tell them what they should have done or felt. Don't start mansplaining the situation. Don't start talking about what a great guy you are. Don't make it about you. Just listen, properly listen, try to understand a perspective you may not have considered, and be open to the idea that there are many things you haven't experienced and don't know.
(Same also for us white people when black people or any ethnic minority talk about their experiences of racism. Whitesplaining is a thing too, and I suspect many of us have done it.)
Worse have been the crass remarks that, as a single male, I'll have "no trouble" finding a new partner and the very embarrassing offers to warm my lonely bed - unbelievable.
No, I didn't tell people to f*ck off but it was rampant sexism.
* delete/expand as you wish
These days I am bothered about the increasing obnoxious sexism of younger men. We used to talk about 'new men'. These days an increasing number of young men seem to be 'old men'.
And that's a real problem. It feels like there is a sexist counter-revolution under way. As an old man who has some claim to have both learned the importance of being a 'new man' and made changes in that direction, this baleful counter-revolution bothers me a lot.
I'm sorry for the BS you continue to experience.
It doesn't seem too relevant here, where the issue is more the systemic sexism of a patricharchal society, which has a long history of oppression of women, and women are tired of it. Because your experiences don't change or undermine this - they are a separate issue.
In the same way, if there was a thread where black people were venting about the systemic racism of society, and the racist shit they deal with on a daily basis, it would be kind of inappropriate and insensitive for white people to turn the conversation to themselves, and the times when some black people were insensitive to them, and made a sweeping stereotype about white people.
But equally, it's Hell, and if men want to make this all about themselves, and play a 'We're just as oppressed as you' game, I suppose there's nothing to stop them. But I am really not sure what you're after in your post. Are you genuinely spoiling for a fight, wanting to undermine the impact and relevance of male oppression in women's everyday lives, and make it into an oppression competition? Or are you wanting to vent your frustrations and grief about a painful situation where some women were insensitive to you? Because a new thread might be better for the latter.
The fact that the stereotypes engendered in societal oppression of women also has a knock-on negative effect on men is all the more reason for men to stand with women against it, rather than see it as an oppression competition.
To decide on the level of danger isn't easy, even in daylight in public places. Someone rebuffed for a compliment or an advance can turn nasty very quickly and then I have to deal with being followed home or out to a parking lot, verbally threatened or assaulted. People in a crowded place can melt away very quickly at any hint of conflict, so they may not think to call the police or speak up, offer support. I don't know that most men understand the dread that accompanies this kind of experience because fear changes a great deal for women in everyday life. It might be easier to gauge the level of risk with pugnacious or amorous men in a pub, but assessing if the person standing in front of you winking and smirking might be drunk, high on drugs or under-medicated for some behavioral disorder can be crucial in deciding how to manage the situation.
Much of the time, I don't want the rudeness or intrusive behaviour to escalate. At some point encounters that begin 'innocuously enough' with micro-aggressions can turn violent. That means smiling or laughing in agreement, and saying nothing, walking away as quickly as possible,. Afterwards I feel I should have done more on my own behalf, shut him up, sworn or mocked him. These encounters leave me feeling passive and helpless, furious, determined to do better next time.
And that is so tricky because most people (and I'm talking here mostly about men) don't realise how they come across in these exchanges. They use micro-aggressions as a learned pattern because that is how they have been socialised, because it lets them feel in control, because it feels satisfying to see a woman flustered or at a loss for words. They don't feel like bullies or predators; they would describe themselves as harmless or a bit of a clown. They 'mean no harm' and they see no reason to change their style in interacting. It works for them.
Whenever I've turned around with a sarcastic retort or told the man concerned to fuck off, the shock and disbelief shown by the man who addressed me as well as bystanders has made me feel not just that I over-reacted, but that I sounded out of control. Anger in women is often seen as inappropriate and hysterical. And often the man involved then has an opening to pursue me with protestations of innocence or outrage, trying to calm me down, assure me he meant nothing bad, that he's one of the good guys and I should give men a second chance etc. It never ends well.
Ewwww. Pity you didn't tell them to fuck off. As for the bedwarmers, may I suggest a long, slow look from face down to feet then back up from the feet, moving to the face, a short stare--and then a sudden headshake as of complete disbelief, as you turn to walk away--all in complete silence.
My personal experience as a man who is husband, brother, parent, uncle, is that yes, this is my experience, if I understand what is meant by "knock on". And I'm particularly sensitive about it all. But I'm a man, so it is isn't about me at all. Parallel: because I have an adopted First Nations sister, black nephews and brother in law, and a Chinese sister in law, doesn't mean I get to claim anything from their experiences of racism. I think the role of me with harassment of women is to not tolerate it from others, and to follow instructions of the women.
@TheOrganist I can't imagine the challenges you and your family faced during your wife's illness and death.
I'm so sorry to hear that some people were so rude, destructive, hurtful and disrespectful.
Asher
Thank you? WTF? For what?
Yes, I understand why this is irritating.
Your obnoxious old man seems to be the retired version of the stereotypical builder, catcalling women from construction sites. I've never understood why men seem to feel the need to do this kind of thing. I'm a man, and this just confuses me. What outcome are they expecting? Do they think being obnoxious is funny? Do they genuinely think this crap is appreciated? Why do they think it's OK to impose themselves on people like this? I'd love to be able to at least explain what's going on in their heads, but it makes no sense to me.
I recognize that it happens a lot - but I can't explain why.
There was a great phrase in one of the articles that I suspect applies here: men overestimate women's interest in receiving ... attention from them.
In the same way, a woman could say to TheOrganist, 'Are you sure it was about your gender?' and then give the example of how, when she was widowed, neighbours asked if she wanted help with housework, and naively conclude that clearly it's unrelated to gender.
All these things happen to a small extent to both genders, and can be unrelated to gender. But in addition to that is the whole history of gender stereotyping, where it does happen, and frequently, because of gender. A man has the privilege of knowing that any annoying comment telling him to smile is at least not because of his gender. It is not about any societal assumption that his gender has an obligation to look pretty, which involves smiling and being generally agreeable,
Similarly we all know there are stereotypes that cooking, cleaning, ironing, etc., are a woman's domain. And those stereotypes will be in play when a man is newly single.
One of the things men sometimes say, when a woman expresses that random men complimenting her looks is unwelcome, is 'Well, I'd be really pleased and flattered if a woman complimented me on my looks.' As if the woman is somehow ungrateful. The man being completely oblivious to the gender power games and dynamics. In a similar way, I could say that I'd be quite happy if someone (if I were in the position of being newly single - or in general, as I've always been single) asked me how I was coping with housework. People do ask me, in fact, and I appreciate their concern. But this is because I know this is nothing to do with gender stereotypes and assumptions, and everything to do with me as an individual who genuinely struggles with housework and organisation, and am open about that fact. So I don't say 'Well, gee, I'd be grateful and you should have thanked them for your concern,' to TheOrganist, because I understand the gender stereotypes at play, and how it's not the same.
Now, add to this what MaryLouise said about the very real dangers to women if they do challenge a man's sexist assumptions. This is where the power inequality comes in. If a random woman tells you to smile, or makes some comment about liking your looks, and you tell her to fuck off, you are not likely to be in danger. The power balance is unequal here.
Brilliant!
Just before quarantine took effect, I was walking in the mall when an older man commented on my appearance. The first thing that popped out of my mouth was, "Bless your heart", and I kept going. It is to be hoped that he understood the intent of those words.
When I was a very young woman, and in the midst of a Singularly Bad Day, a man I saw at the time as an old fart (he was probably in his late 40s or early 50s) pulled the, "Hey, sweetie, smile! You're too pretty to look so glum!" crap on me. I snapped, and snarled, "What the hell gives you the right to say that? Fuck off!" I honestly thought he was going to knock me down, he was so angry, complete with arm cocked to punch me out.
Since then I have worked at not reacting, purely out of physical fear. But, oh, the things I think...
Miranda is walking down a street, and is in a very bad mood. A construction worker cat calls her with a very specific proposition.
M: You want me to what? And then you're going to do *what*? Ok, right here, right now.
CW: Hey, take it easy, lady! I'm married!
M: You're talking to me like that, and you're married? What a gavon!*
*Italian insult.