The immune-system overdrive idea can be googled under "cytokine storm."
As for why men seem to have a disadvantage in the current virus sweeps, I've seen (but can't evaluate) the idea that there is some protective thingamabob (technical term of art) on or derived from the X chromosome, and having two such chromosomes is a bit more protective. But who knows?
I seem to remember reading in the not too distant past, though not "properly" reading with citations etc., that there is such a thing as "man flu" with men being more susceptible to getting it more intensely, which might be a related phenomenon. (It was in a proper sort of source, not just a passing note in dubious media, but I haven't followed it up yet.)
There is the notion that XXs have a better immune system, since they are born with all the eggs they'll ever make. And to reinforce that, some of the genes that handle the immune system are only found on the X chromosome.
Hypothesis: "Man Flu" is the manifestation of what happens when the subliminal alignment of males with toxic masculinity falters in the face of needing to admit weakness.
Or, more simply put, our delusions of "manliness" need to make excuses for our mere humanity.
Getting back to an earlier theme, I've surprised myself. I don't think I'm a particularly violent person, but something I'm really missing is my occasional Martial Arts for Old Farts group.
Getting back to an earlier theme, I've surprised myself. I don't think I'm a particularly violent person, but something I'm really missing is my occasional Martial Arts for Old Farts group.
We often conceptualize ourselves as being fundamentally our cognitive selves. But the awkward truth is that our cognitive capacity is bootstrapped on top of a survival-oriented meat machine, which has built-in positive feedback mechanisms for physicality which enhance survival. Annoyingly, these feedback mechanisms are not often well-suited for our current civilized circumstances. Mostly the hoard-all-the-calories response to systemic stress, but I suspect that there is also a common physical urge to behaviours that would make us more-difficult to eat by smilodons. Hence the common addiction to running or working out, and the lizard-brain joy of simulated combat.
...says the guy who has spent waaaaay too much time chatting neurobiology speculatively with psychologists over beers/wine. I'm weird like that.
Going mad with the lockdown, doing lots of P&D whilst listening to 'Infinite Monkey Cage' podcasts.
I half remember on the 'sex' podcast that men generate sperm throughout their lifetime, and that this is linked to more faults in both male generated X and Y (telemere degredation?), and that (generally - they did specify generally) X eggs are generated prior to age related degredation. Somehow the female-inherited bits did lots of correction work....
Amongst the assembled professors this female approach ("!) was seen as A GOOD THING.
I wondered - as I tackled a tricky painting-behind-the-radiator bit, whether this might feed into the increased incidence of LD in men (turning the clock back to earlier pages of this thread).
Anyway, in the absence of opportunities to fight, may I recommend cycling.
Given that toilet paper is much in the news, has there been any discussion as to why men use less than women? In the past I always had to stock up if women came to stay.
Presumably this relates to the astonished comment from my teenage son when we were discussing toilet roll usage in our household: "Wait! WHAT? Women use toilet paper when they pee??"
Yes, we like to dry ourselves, we can't just shake it about! And then a lot more cleaning up can be required when you have your period..
Does that help answer the question or is that too much information?!
Presumably this relates to the astonished comment from my teenage son when we were discussing toilet roll usage in our household: "Wait! WHAT? Women use toilet paper when they pee??"
Yes, we like to dry ourselves, we can't just shake it about! And then a lot more cleaning up can be required when you have your period..
Does that help answer the question or is that too much information?!
Very useful. As a single gay man I have little knowledge of the female body, I'm afraid.
Presumably this relates to the astonished comment from my teenage son when we were discussing toilet roll usage in our household: "Wait! WHAT? Women use toilet paper when they pee??"
Yes, we like to dry ourselves, we can't just shake it about! And then a lot more cleaning up can be required when you have your period..
Does that help answer the question or is that too much information?!
Very useful. As a single gay man I have little knowledge of the female body, I'm afraid.
Presumably this relates to the astonished comment from my teenage son when we were discussing toilet roll usage in our household: "Wait! WHAT? Women use toilet paper when they pee??"
Yes, we like to dry ourselves, we can't just shake it about! And then a lot more cleaning up can be required when you have your period..
Does that help answer the question or is that too much information?!
Very useful. As a single gay man I have little knowledge of the female body, I'm afraid.
It's a sprinkler rather than a hose, essentially.
At my age, my own plumbing becomes more a sprinkler than a hose.
This morning's Start the Week is entitled The Genetic Gender Gap and is slated to discuss XX chromosomes and why women are surviving coronavirus better.
This morning's Start the Week is entitled The Genetic Gender Gap and is slated to discuss XX chromosomes and why women are surviving coronavirus better.
There are two people in my house. One XX, one XY. Previously, the XY person only visited on a Saturday evening. It was noticeable then that the loo roll needed replacing on Sunday, but not again until the following week. Currently, the rolls need replacing after about a day and a half. This seems to be related to the number of sitting down visits made by each person, not that I am monitoring, apart from worrying about replacing the rolls under current circumstances. I do not suppose that the guts are particularly affected by the X and Y chromosomes, or that any general rules can be either made or countered by a single case.
So, this is an offshoot from a conversation on the reproductive responsibilities thread. I’ll do my best to share my thoughts / reflections.
It comes out of the observations that males, for various reasons, are not as forthcoming as females in sharing their experiences. They internalise their struggles, and that this leads to the high rate of suicides in men.
I love reading the reflections of women on their experiences, because they help me understand how different the struggles women and girls are from anything I’ve experienced. Threads like the current one in Hell are useful, because they give me a glimpse into what life is like being a woman. Those kinds of spaces are so helpful for women, and are becoming more prevalent - there are some unwritten principles - to share without judgement, a safe space to vent, an encouragement of the sharing of a wide variety of female experiences, a validation and valuing of female experiences, a solidarity between women, and that men are better off shutting up and listening.
I'm aware how important those spaces are to women, and that there are still a lot of places in society where women are ignored, treated unfairly and objectified.
But I'm also aware that those kinds of spaces are even rarer for men. Whether that's because men don't want them, or they don't know how to make them / find them, I dunno. And my feeling is that even here on the Ship, where we're mostly very deliberate about making those spaces free for women, the same doesn't always go for men. Thinking about those unwritten principles, we seem less bothered about hearing different male experiences, male experiences aren't validated or valued. There's not always the non-judgemental space for sharing*. There's less solidarity (probably because of the shame a lot of us men feel for the simple fact of our gender). Yes, we have this thread, but it was a bit of a battle to even have it.
I suppose in the reproductive responses thread there were a lot of descriptions about what males are like, but in a sense those were pretty at odds with the reflections and experiences of the actual men on the thread. I think @lilbuddha is right in that this is probably down to the narrowish demographic of the Ship. Half of me is interested in hearing what more men think and experience, and the other half stands embarrassed and ready to judge the privilege / sexism / entitlement / misogyny that gets found when that can of worms is opened.
Personally, I find it much easier to talk to women. I live with all women in my family. I've generally had more female friends than male. Heck, I wanted to be female for a chunk of my childhood (see Transgender thread). But I think there is a big chunk of male experience that doesn't get shared (aside from shallow "banter" in certain contexts). There are some great role models - I linked to the How Do You Cope podcast in the other thread, and those guys are great at normalising men honestly sharing their emotions. I don't have many conclusions or questions other than, as @Doc Tor said: "there's certainly something going on". What are the ways that men can be encouraged to share, and how to we break this shitty bravado that stops us doing it? Is it down to the darkness that seems to exist in more men than women**? I know we've talked about it a bit on this thread, but I still don't feel like I've got many answers. Does anyone have any good stories of hope or example?
*I totally understand the natural response of, "Men have had the platform for millennia. We've heard enough male voices." But I'd counter that with the suggestion that it's a narrow range of (often alpha) male voices that get heard, and there are a lot of men who struggle in various ways to understand where they fit in the world and also don't get their voices heard. I also understand the notion that a lot of experiences that women go through are much worse and harder to deal with than those men go through. Or that it's that men are losing their superior status and they're not losing out, just becoming more equal. But I'd respond with the reality that a it's not a competition, and anyone's difficulties are real to themselves, and they need help getting through them, not judgement.
**By darkness, I'm talking about the violence that seems to be more inherent in men than women, judging by crime, anyhow. And obviously I'm talking big picture trends, not individuals.
My experience of teenage boys suggests that they may be able to break down and talk to a woman/girlfriend/friend-who's-a-girl, somewhere out of sight, but they do not feel able to do so in front of their peers. If there's the slightest hint of anyone arriving who may mock or jeer the shutters go back down again. And they are embarrassed to be reminded of the incident afterwards.
Yeah, it’s tragic. Some people do seem to be able to break through sometimes. I read the late Mary Previte’s (inspirational) memoirs about the youth centre she administered, and it seems that giving them a voice (they made a newspaper for the centre, for example) and setting an example from all the staff made a difference. And that’s kids, what about all the adults that bottle all their rubbish up and never process it?
My experience (personal, in work, and in volunteering with men in offender-resettlement and homelessness projects) is that the stereotypes of men uniting around a common task (rather than, say, 'to talk') are often true, and other rather cheesy stereotypes about the potential positive influence of elders in groups of mixed age can also be true. It was a major lost opportunity when one centre turfed a lot of my old lags out as they were making the re-employment stats look bad - when really their presence was making the place look steady and cool-ish for the young guys coming in, and making them feel less of a prize prick surrounded by social workers. Luckily we found a home elsewhere, and some more outliers have come in.
I get on well with men, more than mixed groups, although I need to find groups with a shared goal or interest (see above). There's quite a lot of slagging but it's subtle, and carefully pitched, and respects quite complex hierarchies often wrt who is (genuinely) funny, and truthful, and self-deprecating - and entertaining! (Not me - that's not what I bring). Such groups take a long time - many years - to gel, in my experience. I don't 'lead' my group - that didn't turn out to be the thing I was best at, but the guy that really does that role in practice, needs me there to make the ostensible reason for the meeting run happily and productively. It's quite complicated, when you think about it.
We talk about some quite heavy stuff - a couple have cancer, one is dying, one is going to drink himself dead in not so long if he doesn't ease up, another is trying again to get dry and has been trying for 20 years or so, others have serious mental illness. All have complicated and sometimes broken family relationships. We have a great time. It took a very long time to get here - the first couple of decades were less rewarding!
The group works better as a men's group than mixed - we have tried both over the years.
I strongly feel that clear divide in relating is an unconscious cultural aspect we have mostly been groomed to carry.
Much of my adult life has been based around coming to terms with how I am "warm" and not "cool", despite the pressures to avoid emoting I now recognize that my emotional sensitivity is perfectly normal. Being middle-aged, it is rare to find male peers who are willing to be as vulnerable as I am, so I do gravitate towards female friends. Still, even my male friends tend to come out of their shells in conversation with me - over time - and reveal a deep need for the exact same kind of experiential emotional discourse we stereotype women as being better at.
Comments
As for why men seem to have a disadvantage in the current virus sweeps, I've seen (but can't evaluate) the idea that there is some protective thingamabob (technical term of art) on or derived from the X chromosome, and having two such chromosomes is a bit more protective. But who knows?
Quite the opposite, says she, twirling her mustache and looking shifty.
Or, more simply put, our delusions of "manliness" need to make excuses for our mere humanity.
Fascinating. They were saying the old story literally earlier this week on R4's science programme.
The 'old' story still has legs: https://www.bionews.org.uk/page_148371
Take home message I'd get from a quick google review is "Jury out, not enough evidence yet to confirm post-natal oogenesis in humans"
We often conceptualize ourselves as being fundamentally our cognitive selves. But the awkward truth is that our cognitive capacity is bootstrapped on top of a survival-oriented meat machine, which has built-in positive feedback mechanisms for physicality which enhance survival. Annoyingly, these feedback mechanisms are not often well-suited for our current civilized circumstances. Mostly the hoard-all-the-calories response to systemic stress, but I suspect that there is also a common physical urge to behaviours that would make us more-difficult to eat by smilodons. Hence the common addiction to running or working out, and the lizard-brain joy of simulated combat.
...says the guy who has spent waaaaay too much time chatting neurobiology speculatively with psychologists over beers/wine. I'm weird like that.
I half remember on the 'sex' podcast that men generate sperm throughout their lifetime, and that this is linked to more faults in both male generated X and Y (telemere degredation?), and that (generally - they did specify generally) X eggs are generated prior to age related degredation. Somehow the female-inherited bits did lots of correction work....
Amongst the assembled professors this female approach ("!) was seen as A GOOD THING.
I wondered - as I tackled a tricky painting-behind-the-radiator bit, whether this might feed into the increased incidence of LD in men (turning the clock back to earlier pages of this thread).
Anyway, in the absence of opportunities to fight, may I recommend cycling.
Asher
Yes, we like to dry ourselves, we can't just shake it about! And then a lot more cleaning up can be required when you have your period..
Does that help answer the question or is that too much information?!
Heck, I go through napkins at warp speed eating one-bite crackers.
Neither was I. I'm not up on most aspects of squishy science, so tend to listen to those who are and take it on trust.
Very useful. As a single gay man I have little knowledge of the female body, I'm afraid.
It's a sprinkler rather than a hose, essentially.
If you wish to understand bras, imagine your balls were the size of oranges / grapefruit.
The CALM project is specifically aimed at trying to support men in an accessible way.
Imagine?
They're still aching....
At my age, my own plumbing becomes more a sprinkler than a hose.
I'd heard that was the reason women were bad drivers. (It was a joke!)
Thanks, I'll listen on BBC sounds
It comes out of the observations that males, for various reasons, are not as forthcoming as females in sharing their experiences. They internalise their struggles, and that this leads to the high rate of suicides in men.
I love reading the reflections of women on their experiences, because they help me understand how different the struggles women and girls are from anything I’ve experienced. Threads like the current one in Hell are useful, because they give me a glimpse into what life is like being a woman. Those kinds of spaces are so helpful for women, and are becoming more prevalent - there are some unwritten principles - to share without judgement, a safe space to vent, an encouragement of the sharing of a wide variety of female experiences, a validation and valuing of female experiences, a solidarity between women, and that men are better off shutting up and listening.
I'm aware how important those spaces are to women, and that there are still a lot of places in society where women are ignored, treated unfairly and objectified.
But I'm also aware that those kinds of spaces are even rarer for men. Whether that's because men don't want them, or they don't know how to make them / find them, I dunno. And my feeling is that even here on the Ship, where we're mostly very deliberate about making those spaces free for women, the same doesn't always go for men. Thinking about those unwritten principles, we seem less bothered about hearing different male experiences, male experiences aren't validated or valued. There's not always the non-judgemental space for sharing*. There's less solidarity (probably because of the shame a lot of us men feel for the simple fact of our gender). Yes, we have this thread, but it was a bit of a battle to even have it.
I suppose in the reproductive responses thread there were a lot of descriptions about what males are like, but in a sense those were pretty at odds with the reflections and experiences of the actual men on the thread. I think @lilbuddha is right in that this is probably down to the narrowish demographic of the Ship. Half of me is interested in hearing what more men think and experience, and the other half stands embarrassed and ready to judge the privilege / sexism / entitlement / misogyny that gets found when that can of worms is opened.
Personally, I find it much easier to talk to women. I live with all women in my family. I've generally had more female friends than male. Heck, I wanted to be female for a chunk of my childhood (see Transgender thread). But I think there is a big chunk of male experience that doesn't get shared (aside from shallow "banter" in certain contexts). There are some great role models - I linked to the How Do You Cope podcast in the other thread, and those guys are great at normalising men honestly sharing their emotions. I don't have many conclusions or questions other than, as @Doc Tor said: "there's certainly something going on". What are the ways that men can be encouraged to share, and how to we break this shitty bravado that stops us doing it? Is it down to the darkness that seems to exist in more men than women**? I know we've talked about it a bit on this thread, but I still don't feel like I've got many answers. Does anyone have any good stories of hope or example?
*I totally understand the natural response of, "Men have had the platform for millennia. We've heard enough male voices." But I'd counter that with the suggestion that it's a narrow range of (often alpha) male voices that get heard, and there are a lot of men who struggle in various ways to understand where they fit in the world and also don't get their voices heard. I also understand the notion that a lot of experiences that women go through are much worse and harder to deal with than those men go through. Or that it's that men are losing their superior status and they're not losing out, just becoming more equal. But I'd respond with the reality that a it's not a competition, and anyone's difficulties are real to themselves, and they need help getting through them, not judgement.
**By darkness, I'm talking about the violence that seems to be more inherent in men than women, judging by crime, anyhow. And obviously I'm talking big picture trends, not individuals.
The quantity of paper used per visit may also depend strongly on the diet and gut fauna of the visitor.
I get on well with men, more than mixed groups, although I need to find groups with a shared goal or interest (see above). There's quite a lot of slagging but it's subtle, and carefully pitched, and respects quite complex hierarchies often wrt who is (genuinely) funny, and truthful, and self-deprecating - and entertaining! (Not me - that's not what I bring). Such groups take a long time - many years - to gel, in my experience. I don't 'lead' my group - that didn't turn out to be the thing I was best at, but the guy that really does that role in practice, needs me there to make the ostensible reason for the meeting run happily and productively. It's quite complicated, when you think about it.
We talk about some quite heavy stuff - a couple have cancer, one is dying, one is going to drink himself dead in not so long if he doesn't ease up, another is trying again to get dry and has been trying for 20 years or so, others have serious mental illness. All have complicated and sometimes broken family relationships. We have a great time. It took a very long time to get here - the first couple of decades were less rewarding!
The group works better as a men's group than mixed - we have tried both over the years.
Much of my adult life has been based around coming to terms with how I am "warm" and not "cool", despite the pressures to avoid emoting I now recognize that my emotional sensitivity is perfectly normal. Being middle-aged, it is rare to find male peers who are willing to be as vulnerable as I am, so I do gravitate towards female friends. Still, even my male friends tend to come out of their shells in conversation with me - over time - and reveal a deep need for the exact same kind of experiential emotional discourse we stereotype women as being better at.