Fuck you, you thick-as-pig-shit bootlicking asshat

jbohnjbohn Shipmate
@Twilight - screw you.

As a Minneapolitan, who has seen first hand both racism and brutality of the MPD, and the results upon my beloved city, I say to you, unreservedly, get fucked with a rusty implement of your choosing.Your amazingly tone deaf defense of both murderous cops and rapist young men of wealth and privilege here:

https://forums.shipoffools.com/discussion/comment/300257/#Comment_300257

makes me ill. I don't think it's possible to be quite as stupid as one would need to be to make those comments, so I'll go with you being just an asshole and closet racist.

Your whataboutism is amazing. As is your willingness to accept the bullshit spewed by the Minneapolis Police Department - even as the video evidence says otherwise.

TL;DR - fuck off and die.


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Comments

  • Read this @Twilight : https://www.gq.com/story/making-myself-essential "I've Spent Months Fighting Coronavirus in the ER. Police Violence Is What Really Scares Me
    For a Black doctor, simply getting to the hospital feels like the most dangerous part. "

  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    jbohn wrote: »
    @Twilight - screw you.

    As a Minneapolitan, who has seen first hand both racism and brutality of the MPD, and the results upon my beloved city, I say to you, unreservedly, get fucked with a rusty implement of your choosing.Your amazingly tone deaf defense of both murderous cops and rapist young men of wealth and privilege here:

    https://forums.shipoffools.com/discussion/comment/300257/#Comment_300257

    makes me ill. I don't think it's possible to be quite as stupid as one would need to be to make those comments, so I'll go with you being just an asshole and closet racist.

    Your whataboutism is amazing. As is your willingness to accept the bullshit spewed by the Minneapolis Police Department - even as the video evidence says otherwise.

    TL;DR - fuck off and die.


    I don't think I've ever seen or read anything from the Minneapolis Police Dept. It may be all over your local news, but not so much in Ohio.

    I don't know why you think college boys who get drunk at parties, make-out with equally drunk girls and don't notice they've passed out should be forever reviled for their crimes while at the same time think men who premeditate home invasions and assault women with guns should have that little thing swept under the carpet with all forgiven and forgotten, but that's your opinion and I do think you're entitled to it.

    The only "murderous cop" I've defended is 26 year old, new to the job, Kueng who is black. How does that fit with your charge of racist?

    I have to ask, where does "boot licking" come in? Isn't that sort of contradictory to "tone deaf?" If I was out to boot lick I would be very careful to only say things that echo the dominant, prevailing opinion of the ship. Like you!
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Read this @Twilight : https://www.gq.com/story/making-myself-essential "I've Spent Months Fighting Coronavirus in the ER. Police Violence Is What Really Scares Me
    For a Black doctor, simply getting to the hospital feels like the most dangerous part. "

    That's terribly sad. It echoes some of the concern I have for all the doctors, nurses, and other essential workers who've had to continue to go to their jobs and do them in the midst of all this. For me that includes the police I've seen in my town, continuing to do their jobs, answering the usual domestic violence calls and the almost daily calls to Walmart to revive the people who have over-dosed on opioids, leaning over their unmasked bodies to save them, sometimes the same person twice in a day.

    My best friend is an ER nurse here and her son is a cop. They're both truly dedicated to helping others. I don't see why I have to hate one of them right now to convince you or anyone else that I'm not a racist. I also don't see why this story of this good black doctor and what he has to face everyday is put on me as though it's something I caused.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    My best friend is an ER nurse here and her son is a cop. They're both truly dedicated to helping others. I don't see why I have to hate one of them right now to convince you or anyone else that I'm not a racist. I also don't see why this story of this good black doctor and what he has to face everyday is put on me as though it's something I caused.

    You don't have to hate cops. I'm glad your friend's son is a good man. Lots of cops are good men. The problem is that good men also contribute to the problem, because of the ways that black communities in particular are policed.

    Derek Chauvin is not a good man. He's an aggressive thug who put on a uniform to help him push people around. His killing of George Floyd was merely the latest incident in a whole career of aggressive thuggishness.

    But not all the people who are killed when they don't need to be are killed by thugs like Chauvin. Some of them are killed when good men are put in bad situations. The solution to this kind of problem is to not get in to the situation in the first place. This is what some of the calls for a different style of policing, or for some problems to be responded to by social workers, mental health specialists, or whatever, are about. Teach de-escalation, rather than aggression and control. Give those good men better training, to make it more likely that an incident can be resolved without someone getting killed.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    I don't know why you think college boys who get drunk at parties, make-out with equally drunk girls and don't notice they've passed out should be forever reviled for their crimes while at the same time think men who premeditate home invasions and assault women with guns should have that little thing swept under the carpet with all forgiven and forgotten, but that's your opinion and I do think you're entitled to it.

    Literally no one has said this, and while you insist on repeating it as if it's true, you're simply doubling down on your wrongness.

    No. One. Has. Said. This.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Twilight wrote: »
    I don't know why you think college boys who get drunk at parties, make-out with equally drunk girls and don't notice they've passed out should be forever reviled for their crimes while at the same time think men who premeditate home invasions and assault women with guns should have that little thing swept under the carpet with all forgiven and forgotten, but that's your opinion and I do think you're entitled to it.

    Literally no one has said this, and while you insist on repeating it as if it's true, you're simply doubling down on your wrongness.

    No. One. Has. Said. This.

    Well who do you think jbohn was talking about when he said, "rapist young men of wealth and privilege?" I mentioned Brock Turner in the first place to contrast the national reaction to him vs the national reaction to Floyd. The media, particularly the national news is what I've been talking about for days although people want to turn it into me thinking Floyd deserved the treatment he got. So I was comparing reactions and sure enough jbohn and others are still just horrified over Turner.

    I notice that every time Turner is mentioned his race and his parent's financial status come up. Should that really matter? You think a poor black man would have got harsher charges? I don't think a poor black man would have ever been charged in the first place with something so minor and unproven. Turner is definitely not responsible for his stupid father. Do you think people should be penalized for the type of father he has? The country was after this young man from the very first because he was white and considered rich.

    Derek Chauvin is not a good man. He's an aggressive thug who put on a uniform to help him push people around. His killing of George Floyd was merely the latest incident in a whole career of aggressive thuggishness.

    But not all the people who are killed when they don't need to be are killed by thugs like Chauvin. Some of them are killed when good men are put in bad situations. The solution to this kind of problem is to not get in to the situation in the first place. This is what some of the calls for a different style of policing, or for some problems to be responded to by social workers, mental health specialists, or whatever, are about. Teach de-escalation, rather than aggression and control. Give those good men better training, to make it more likely that an incident can be resolved without someone getting killed.

    Do you really think I need to be told that Derek Chauvin is not a good man when I have said repeatedly that he should be convicted of murder?

    You're just using this thread as another excuse to pontificate and repeat what everyone else has already said.

  • jbohnjbohn Shipmate
    Twilight wrote: »
    I don't know why you think college boys who get drunk at parties, make-out with equally drunk girls and don't notice they've passed out should be forever reviled for their crimes
    That's a charitable BS description. Another, less charitable one was that he was found raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. And that both the judge and his wealthy father could think only of not harming his future. Not a thought on what he'd already done to hers.
    Twilight wrote: »
    while at the same time think men who premeditate home invasions and assault women with guns should have that little thing swept under the carpet with all forgiven and forgotten
    Literally no one here is saying this. They are, however, saying that attempting to pass a fake $20 bill (IF that indeed happened; we'll likely never know) isn't a capital crime. And even if it was, it isn't the job of a power-tripping cop to make that decision. (Or anyone, at least in Minnesota - we've not had a death penalty here for many years now.)
    Twilight wrote: »
    but that's your opinion and I do think you're entitled to it.
    Bless your heart.
    Twilight wrote: »
    The only "murderous cop" I've defended is 26 year old, new to the job, Kueng who is black. How does that fit with your charge of racist?
    That would be more the "oh, that poor white kid didn't know he was raping that girl" in contrast to the "that scary black man was in prison, so it's understandable the cop kneeled on his fucking neck for almost nine minutes and ignored both another cop (Kueng, I believe) and bystanders telling him to stop killing the man". (And yes, before you try to weasel on by, I know those aren't direct quotes.)
    Twilight wrote: »
    I have to ask, where does "boot licking" come in? Isn't that sort of contradictory to "tone deaf?" If I was out to boot lick I would be very careful to only say things that echo the dominant, prevailing opinion of the ship. Like you!
    Here you go, O Unable To Fucking Google It One:
    Boot licker
    Someone that kisses cops asses and thinks that all cops are perfect angels that would not and could not do wrong...<snip>
    https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Boot%20Licker
  • Twilight wrote: »
    You think a poor black man would have got harsher charges? I don't think a poor black man would have ever been charged in the first place with something so minor and unproven.

    If the victim was white? He'd be lucky not to be lynched. Certainly he could expect to be put away for some time and be registered as a sex offender.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    I know I'm old and out of date, after all I didn't know bootlicker had a new meaning, but I know it's not 1950 and people aren't regularly lynching black men for being with white women. I went with a black man for most of 1979 and a few hillbillies made comments as they passed us on the street, but we never ran into any real trouble.

    Remember Turner's victim has no memory beyond talking to him at the party. Others at the party saw them go happily out the back door together.

    When I was in college it would have been something everyone joked about the next day, "Were you at the Tri-Sig party? They were doing jello shots and everyone got completely wasted, Jessica here was so far gone she went out back with Jared Smith and passed out while they were doing it. He was so drunk he didn't even know she had passed out! LOL" Jessica blushes and says she really needs to cut back...at least until finals are over. "
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Read this @Twilight : https://www.gq.com/story/making-myself-essential "I've Spent Months Fighting Coronavirus in the ER. Police Violence Is What Really Scares Me
    For a Black doctor, simply getting to the hospital feels like the most dangerous part. "

    Thanks for posting that.

    I was wanting to say more, but I can't even think of the words to do justice to this man's courage in the face of such terror, and his generosity in just doing his job.
  • Twilight, you seem to be very invested in defending Brock Taylor. At the same time, you keep rehashing the "no angel" storyline for George Floyd. You defended Nick Sandmann and gave Nathan Phillips the "no angel" treatment. You did the same thing to Trayvon Martin while defending George Zimmerman.

    You tell us black men aren't lynched "regularly" any more for interracial relationships. You tell us that you dated a black man (for less than 12 months) but never had "any real trouble." You bring up the number of white men killed by police. When confronted, you always seem to think you're being picked on for expressing a minority opinion and not going along with the mob.

    You may genuinely believe you are not racist, but your posts fit a pattern and your Shipmates have no other data to work from.

    And then there's this:
    ... When I was in college it would have been something everyone joked about the next day ....

    Brett Kavanagh also thought sexual assault was funny.



  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate
    ^^This.^^

    But for good measure, let me relate a story of something that happened to a friend in college. (Yes, it really did happen to a friend, and not me).
    So she was at a party at a friend's house one night, and quite drunk, had the spins, went to lie down on a bed in the dark. A guy came in and got up on the bed beside her. She didn't object. Then he got his dick out, and she said, "Oh god, gross!" - then she blacked out. When she came to, she became aware that he'd fucked her. (Although, props, what a good guy, he had used a condom). How was she aware of this, given she'd been unconscious at the time? She had been a virgin.
    Now, based on what I hear Twilight saying, this is no big deal for a variety of reasons, namely, she was passing out drunk, and, I mean, lying on a bed, so what did she expect? - and, given she wasn't conscious at the time, how could she possibly have found anything about the experience traumatic - or even distasteful? It's not like it could've hurt, or anything, right? - because, unconscious.
    This was twenty-five years ago, and my friend hasn't had a drink since. You know why? Because she did find the experience deeply traumatic. For one thing, she doesn't know how many other guys trooped in after to take a turn.
    But the shittest thing? The shittest, shittest, thing? She thinks that because [despite her state] she didn't clearly say, "Put that thing away - I am not interested in having sex with you," that the blame ultimately lies with her, which cuts me up like you would not believe.

    And this? OMG...
    Twilight wrote: »
    Remember Turner's victim has no memory beyond talking to him at the party. Others at the party saw them go happily out the back door together.
    Because every woman, ever, who walked out a back door with a guy did so in the full expectation that they would wind up having sex - preferably in an alley, 'cos, yeah, that's just extra-special...
    Twilight wrote: »
    When I was in college it would have been something everyone joked about the next day, "Were you at the Tri-Sig party? They were doing jello shots and everyone got completely wasted, Jessica here was so far gone she went out back with Jared Smith and passed out while they were doing it. He was so drunk he didn't even know she had passed out! LOL" Jessica blushes and says she really needs to cut back...at least until finals are over. "
    My questions here would be:
    1.)How the fuck was Jared so drunk that he was unable to distinguish a conscious person from an unconscious one (the difference is considerable) - and yet simultaneously sufficiently non-drunk enough to be able to get and maintain an erection?
    2.)In a situation where everyone already regards it as a joke what option does Jessica really have other than to act a bit sheepish and play along to the crowd? Fucking none, that's what. Not if she doesn't want to be isolated as a frigid unfriendly humourless lesbian trouble-making man-hating life-wrecking tool who can't take a simple joke, for god's sake.
    3.) Why is Jared not also blushing and admitting he needs to cut back until finals are over? He was also very drunk and partook of an act which your scenario at least suggests he might not have engaged in if he were more sober.

    I mean, really. Here we still are, after all these years. Getting fucked while unconscious? Shameful. Fucking someone who's unconscious, although not something you can do while unconscious, and therefore an intentional act - merely inadvisable...

    CUT. THIS. SHIT. OUT.
  • Who the fuck willingly consents to being fingered next to a dumpster? Location alone calls bullshit on that one.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Twilight, you seem to be very invested in defending Brock Taylor. At the same time, you keep rehashing the "no angel" storyline for George Floyd. You defended Nick Sandmann and gave Nathan Phillips the "no angel" treatment. You did the same thing to Trayvon Martin while defending George Zimmerman.

    You tell us black men aren't lynched "regularly" any more for interracial relationships. You tell us that you dated a black man (for less than 12 months) but never had "any real trouble." You bring up the number of white men killed by police. When confronted, you always seem to think you're being picked on for expressing a minority opinion and not going along with the mob.

    You may genuinely believe you are not racist, but your posts fit a pattern and your Shipmates have no other data to work from.

    And then there's this:
    ... When I was in college it would have been something everyone joked about the next day ....

    Brett Kavanagh also thought sexual assault was funny.



    Thank you, Soror Magna, for saving me the trouble of wracking my memory and a slew of other threads. Twilight, I hope you'll read what Soror Magna has to say and take it to heart. I too have noticed this ongoing tussle you engage in periodically, of calling out someone's criticism of racist behavior by backtracking around to how the victim of the racism was no angel either.

    Who is?

    Do only perfectly-behaved humans get to claim victim status when that's thrust upon them? Take a look at the stats Ruth posted elsewhere about the extent to which Black men get arrested in LA for crimes at three the rate at which members of other races get arrested. Are we to believe, over years and years of record-keeping, that Black people really are so consistently more criminal than everybody else? It beggars credulity.

    Look inside yourself, Twilight, and wonder where the impulse springs from to get annoyed and upset when posters here express guilt, or sorrow, or outrage over racial injustice while you seem willing to come, at least partially, to its defense. What does it mean to you, that a flawed and ordinary and far-from heroic black man, was robbed of his life -- far less any hope of justice -- in full public view, without the slightest suggestion that this was out of the ordinary, by representatives of "law and order" in this ordinary, flawed citizen's society?

  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    You know what all those cases have in common? Not race. Angry lynch mobs frothing with hatred for someone without ever making the slightest attempt to open their minds to what the other side might have been thinking or feeling, just a huge group of hounds baying for blood and saying, "Don't bother me with the facts, if you do you're on the wrong side."

    Take Turner again. You all say drunkenness is no excuse for the man but it seems to absolve the women from any responsibility at all. No one has said she should have made it clear she didn't want any more tea. Why not? Because she was passed out drunk? I thought that was no excuse. Remember there was no penetration in the Brock Turner case so the " if he was so drunk where did he get an erection?" thing doesn't apply. His case was not the same as the stranger in bed with your friend. They left together. The dumpster in the back yard has been brought out time and again but it was dark and they probably didn't even see it. If she didn't think they were going to the backyard to make out why did she think they were going there? They had come in the front door.

    Want to know where they are now? The victim with no memory of the event has written a book about it and is once again enjoying her fame and hallowed position in the feminist community. Brock Turner was registered for life as a sex offender, was told he could never take part in swimming competition so had to gave up his Olympic dreams and was kicked out of college.

    He's still living with his parents and after having to move three times because of picketing outside their home they have settled in Bellbrook Ohio, just a few miles from me so I know it's definitely not a "wealthy" community. He works in a factory where his boss says he's a good worker who "keeps his head down. " Satisfied? Or should he have been castrated for continuing to pour that tea and not noticing that she probably didn't want anymore?

    Contrary to what all of you believe, I know I'm not racist, by my standards and that's all I care about. I was brought up to see "treating everyone the same" and colorblindness as the ideal but I know that is far from the ideal now. I see the new standard all over and it's now a case of you must favor the person of color over the white, the poor over the rich, the woman over the man, or else you're wrong. I've been called racist on the TV boards simply for saying I didn't like a certain black contestant on "Survivor." I think Biden is going to lose the race for president if he doesn't pick a black woman for VP regardless of qualifications.

    I'm not going to change there. I'm still going to try to see all people as equals and I'm not going to try to right all the wrongs of the past through the latest case. I'm not inclined to make Brock Turner pay for every guy who ever knowingly raped a clearly non-consensual woman. I'm not going to make officer Keung pay for what Chauvin did. I didn't think O. J. should have got away with murder because lots of black men had been railroaded in the past.

    If more of the cases I've tried to defend involve black people it's because that's where the public favoritism is right now. The angry lynch mobs are after the white people now and I find them almost as hideous as the ones in the past. I think the angry mob members are the descendants of the people who used to gang together to pin scarlet letters on the Hester Roons but slut-shaming is out now so instead they're gleefully sewing a big "N" on Roseanne or Paula Deen. People just love to sanctify their hate. Soror Magna even seems to be keeping a score card against others for her own hating pleasure. Yes, racism is wrong, just like adultery, but I don't think we should permit ourselves to be that judgmental.



    You want me to look at myself and find racism? Maybe some of you should look at yourself and wonder if you ever think for yourself or just keep following the conventional liberal position of the moment. Ask yourself why you give yourself permission to hate white men on such a grand scale and only apply the "look for the goodness in everyone" as @Fineline was saying she does, to people like George Floyd and never to a Turner or God forbid a Chauvin?

    You also might want to ask yourself when sex among young people quit being a fun thing shared between two attracted people and became a nasty thing that the man always inflicts on the woman who couldn't possibly be willing -- because ew.

    As for racism in New York City? I'm just not going to take responsibility for that.
  • Twilight wrote: »

    I'm not going to change there.

    The only meaningful phrase in that avalanche of rationalisation that means anything. You are either too stupid or too prejudiced. I don't know why these good people bother, except to relieve their feelings.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Twilight wrote: »

    I'm not going to change there.

    I don't know why these good people bother, except to relieve their feelings.

    Why? For the same reason you came out of the woodwork. To collect lots of praise from your friends who are bravely speaking up against racism on a liberal message board.

    In 1964, in college in West Virginia, I dated a black student, something that had never been done before on that campus and it meant most of the student body quit speaking to me. That took a certain amount of courage and conviction.

    I'd like all those here who have asked me to prove I'm not a racist to tell me what you've done to stand against racism and prove it to me.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited June 2020
    Twilight wrote: »
    You know what all those cases have in common? Not race. Angry lynch mobs frothing with hatred for someone without ever making the slightest attempt to open their minds to what the other side might have been thinking or feeling, just a huge group of hounds baying for blood and saying, "Don't bother me with the facts, if you do you're on the wrong side."

    Take Turner again. You all say drunkenness is no excuse for the man but it seems to absolve the women from any responsibility at all. No one has said she should have made it clear she didn't want any more tea. Why not? Because she was passed out drunk? I thought that was no excuse. Remember there was no penetration in the Brock Turner case so the " if he was so drunk where did he get an erection?" thing doesn't apply. His case was not the same as the stranger in bed with your friend. They left together. The dumpster in the back yard has been brought out time and again but it was dark and they probably didn't even see it. If she didn't think they were going to the backyard to make out why did she think they were going there? They had come in the front door.

    Want to know where they are now? The victim with no memory of the event has written a book about it and is once again enjoying her fame and hallowed position in the feminist community. Brock Turner was registered for life as a sex offender, was told he could never take part in swimming competition so had to gave up his Olympic dreams and was kicked out of college.

    He's still living with his parents and after having to move three times because of picketing outside their home they have settled in Bellbrook Ohio, just a few miles from me so I know it's definitely not a "wealthy" community. He works in a factory where his boss says he's a good worker who "keeps his head down. " Satisfied? Or should he have been castrated for continuing to pour that tea and not noticing that she probably didn't want anymore?

    Contrary to what all of you believe, I know I'm not racist, by my standards and that's all I care about. I was brought up to see "treating everyone the same" and colorblindness as the ideal but I know that is far from the ideal now. I see the new standard all over and it's now a case of you must favor the person of color over the white, the poor over the rich, the woman over the man, or else you're wrong. I've been called racist on the TV boards simply for saying I didn't like a certain black contestant on "Survivor." I think Biden is going to lose the race for president if he doesn't pick a black woman for VP regardless of qualifications.

    I'm not going to change there. I'm still going to try to see all people as equals and I'm not going to try to right all the wrongs of the past through the latest case. I'm not inclined to make Brock Turner pay for every guy who ever knowingly raped a clearly non-consensual woman. I'm not going to make officer Keung pay for what Chauvin did. I didn't think O. J. should have got away with murder because lots of black men had been railroaded in the past.

    If more of the cases I've tried to defend involve black people it's because that's where the public favoritism is right now. The angry lynch mobs are after the white people now and I find them almost as hideous as the ones in the past. I think the angry mob members are the descendants of the people who used to gang together to pin scarlet letters on the Hester Roons but slut-shaming is out now so instead they're gleefully sewing a big "N" on Roseanne or Paula Deen. People just love to sanctify their hate. Soror Magna even seems to be keeping a score card against others for her own hating pleasure. Yes, racism is wrong, just like adultery, but I don't think we should permit ourselves to be that judgmental.



    You want me to look at myself and find racism? Maybe some of you should look at yourself and wonder if you ever think for yourself or just keep following the conventional liberal position of the moment. Ask yourself why you give yourself permission to hate white men on such a grand scale and only apply the "look for the goodness in everyone" as @Fineline was saying she does, to people like George Floyd and never to a Turner or God forbid a Chauvin?

    You also might want to ask yourself when sex among young people quit being a fun thing shared between two attracted people and became a nasty thing that the man always inflicts on the woman who couldn't possibly be willing -- because ew.

    As for racism in New York City? I'm just not going to take responsibility for that.

    If she was that drunk, then she was in no position to give consent her consent to Turner to do anything and, according to the Wiki account of the case, her injuries were consistent with being sexually assaulted. It's more than possible he saw how drunk she was and decided to use the situation to his own advantage and got caught in the act by two other students.

    His life was ruined because of his own actions. Your entire post reads like victim blaming.

    I'd also like to take issue with this part of @jbohn's OP:
    I say to you, unreservedly, get fucked with a rusty implement of your choosing.

    Assuming the photo in the profile is you, using sexually violent language like this towards a woman doesn't help your case however wrong-headed you think she is. It's time the rusty farm implement followed the statue of Edward Colston into the river. And, unlike the statue, stayed there.
  • Who the fuck willingly consents to being fingered next to a dumpster? Location alone calls bullshit on that one.

    Apparently any number of people willingly consent to sex in public toilets. Given that, I'm not sure we can rule out the idea that someone would consent to sexual activity behind a dumpster.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    ...
    In 1964, in college in West Virginia, I dated a black student ....

    You said it was 1979. Are you having trouble keeping your "some of my best friends are black" stories straight?

    See, I don't keep scorecards on anybody. I read and remember what my Shipmates write. That's not hateful. It's the whole fucking point of this place.
    ... I'd like all those here who have asked me to prove I'm not a racist to tell me what you've done to stand against racism and prove it to me....

    Sorry, honey, that's not why we're here. Some of your posts appear racist. (And sexist.) It's up to you to prove to your readers whether that matters to you or not.

    If you want to call others out for their racism or their lack of anti-racism, you'll have to start those threads yourself. This one's for you.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    I've been given so much reading matter, I thought I would contribute in kind.

    So much of this written in 2015 still applies and a white cop killing a black man is just one point.https://thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion
  • Twilight wrote: »
    I've been given so much reading matter, I thought I would contribute in kind.

    So much of this written in 2015 still applies and a white cop killing a black man is just one point.https://thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion

    You have to be a paid-up member to access this. Sorry, I did try.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    I've been given so much reading matter, I thought I would contribute in kind.

    So much of this written in 2015 still applies and a white cop killing a black man is just one point.https://thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion

    I can't access it either, so what the link says is moot - and as has been discussed in the Styx thread on links, we don't just post links in lieu of our arguments.

    @Twilight - given that literally everybody is reading your posts in the same way, your assertion that "I'm not going to change" looks likes it's being made despite the evidence, rather than because of it.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    That's odd, I know I've never paid them a penny.

    So No Prophet gets to post links but I don't? Okay.

    It's a long article with too much to try and paraphrase, but basically he compares Antiracism to religion with a few prophets and preachers like Toni Morrison and Coates, a "creed" of issue statements, and white privilege as original sin, something white people are born with, to need confess and constantly atone for, even unto teaching it to very young children as a sort of Sunday School.

    As with all religions, there are questions that can't really be answered and should never be asked, such as why do we care so much about a few white cops killing black men and while never asking about the thousands of black men who murder black men every year.

    He thinks focusing on this religion, particularly to converting white people to the acknowledgement of their own sinfulness (privilege), is not a good use of time and effort when the focus should be on practical concrete changes, such as good black men and good police working together within neighborhoods to weed out the thugs who are killing their young men.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    Twilight wrote: »
    As with all religions, there are questions that can't really be answered and should never be asked, such as why do we care so much about a few white cops killing black men and while never asking about the thousands of black men who murder black men every year.

    That one can be answered readily. We care about cops killing people, in particular, because they do so as agents of the public good. As agents, in fact, of ourselves. Cops killing people are very precisely our responsibility. They do, after all, work for us.

    Private citizens killing other private citizens - we care, of course. But we are not responsible in the same way.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Twilight wrote: »
    ...
    In 1964, in college in West Virginia, I dated a black student ....

    You said it was 1979. Are you having trouble keeping your "some of my best friends are black" stories straight?

    See, I don't keep scorecards on anybody. I read and remember what my Shipmates write. That's not hateful. It's the whole fucking point of this place.

    It's pretty hateful, when you are always so eager to jump to negative conclusions. In 1964 I was a freshman in college and briefly dated a black student. In 1979 I was a divorced woman who had a serious relationship with a black man for almost a year. Both are true. If I was going to lie on the internet I'd be making you assholes like me.
    ... I'd like all those here who have asked me to prove I'm not a racist to tell me what you've done to stand against racism and prove it to me....

    Sorry, honey, that's not why we're here. Some of your posts appear racist. (And sexist.) It's up to you to prove to your readers whether that matters to you or not.

    If you want to call others out for their racism or their lack of anti-racism, you'll have to start those threads yourself. This one's for you.

    Ah yes, I forgot you're strictly in the business of passing judgments.

    You're calling a 73 year-old woman honey and accusing me of sexism?


    Here's another question then: When the white woman in Mississippi accused Emmett Till of making lewd comments to her, do you think it was important to believe her? Is speaking against her "victim blaming?"

    On the Ship of Fools Supreme Court however you answer the question will determine if you're sexist or racist.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I can read the Daily Beast piece Twilight linked to, and I'm here to tell you it's bullshit.
  • Re the Daily Beast article link:

    I didn't have any trouble with it. I wonder if there's somehow a wall if you're outside the US? I know there are things on the BBC site I can't access from the US.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    So No Prophet gets to post links but I don't? Okay.

    It's a long article with too much to try and paraphrase, but basically he compares Antiracism to religion with a few prophets and preachers like Toni Morrison and Coates, a "creed" of issue statements, and white privilege as original sin, something white people are born with, to need confess and constantly atone for, even unto teaching it to very young children as a sort of Sunday School.

    As with all religions, there are questions that can't really be answered and should never be asked, such as why do we care so much about a few white cops killing black men and while never asking about the thousands of black men who murder black men every year.

    He thinks focusing on this religion, particularly to converting white people to the acknowledgement of their own sinfulness (privilege), is not a good use of time and effort when the focus should be on practical concrete changes, such as good black men and good police working together within neighborhoods to weed out the thugs who are killing their young men.

    No Prophet at least posted a link with a thumbnail precis. I could also read the link. So there's that.

    As to "good black men and good police working together within neighborhoods to weed out the thugs who are killing their young men", I'm guessing that the thugs they'll be targeting aren't in uniform and share a station house with the 'good police'.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Well I've had time to think about this through the Zen of vacuuming and decided that one area where the religion and anti-racist analogy doesn't work for me is the labeling part. All sorts of people call themselves Christians and with a few obvious Trump-like exceptions we don't question their self-assessment. We don't keep a list in our heads of Unchristian Things They Did like taking the Lord's name in vain on Jan 12, 2004 and spending money on a luxury car on May 5, 2015. We don't then call them to Hell to tell them they aren't Christians.

    Racism is different because we don't take a person's word for it. We make the call for them and search diligently for back-up evidence.

    So, by your definitions, I agree, I am a racist and a sexist.

    I have a different definition than you do. For instance I agree that there is such a thing as white privilege, but I don't think it's anything I have to despair over. It definitely is a privilege to be born white and not be followed around stores by security or stopped and frisked by police. I'm sorry those things happen and they need to be corrected.

    It's also a privilege for people to be born without handicaps, have high IQ's, look great, or be talented in the arts. As an off-key singer it's never been lost on me that good singers are welcomed and valued in churches far beyond people like me. Study after study has demonstrated how good looking people get hired faster than ordinary ones. One of the best privileges going is sports talent. I doubt that Venus Williams or Beyonce would trade places with me. So I think sometimes we just need to deal with what we have and it doesn't help anything to try to make the good singers feel guilty about it.

    I'll also never go along with "believe women." It's not true that women never lie about these things and it's not fair that a man has to consider whether the woman is too drunk for consent, while she doesn't have to consider if he is too drunk for consent. I intend to keep looking at rape charges as I would do with any criminal charge with a critical eye that says the accuser has the burden of proof.

    Like Malcolm X said, "I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against." If always siding with the person of color or the female means you think I'm racist and sexist, so be it.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited June 2020
    Twilight wrote: »
    ...
    I'll also never go along with "believe women." It's not true that women never lie about these things and it's not fair that a man has to consider whether the woman is too drunk for consent, while she doesn't have to consider if he is too drunk for consent. I intend to keep looking at rape charges as I would do with any criminal charge with a critical eye that says the accuser has the burden of proof.

    Consent has to be mutual. If either party is too drunk, they cannot consent, that’s the whole point.

    In the case you cited, SHE had passed out and HE was lying on top of her, behaving in an ungentlemanly manner. When challenged he tried to run away. The attempt to run away suggests that he knew that he was doing wrong and would be in trouble if he was caught. And he’s the one you’re asking me to feel sorry rather than her?!
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    I feel the need to point out that black-on-black violence is a product of a structurally racist society.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    See, now there's the patronizing , Lady Bountiful attitude from liberal whites that I would really hate if I was black. Our society is structurally racist, just as it is structurally sexist, but I and my fellow citizens who happen to be black are self-determining, autonomous people in charge of our own moral decisions. You can't make us do violence to anyone.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    See, now there's the patronizing , Lady Bountiful attitude from liberal whites that I would really hate if I was black. Our society is structurally racist, just as it is structurally sexist, but I and my fellow citizens who happen to be black are self-determining, autonomous people in charge of our own moral decisions. You can't make us do violence to anyone.

    You can, however, create the social and political conditions that make violence both more likely and self-perpetuating. Moral decisions are not made in a vacuum.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    I agree that everything matters from daycare through college and all influences in between, but to imply black people can't make good moral decisions unless white people arrange their environment for them is treating then like children. MLK led protests of African Americans bearing signs saying "We are men!" and feminists at that time were telling men that, "Yes, we can work while we're pregnant without having a miscarriage and, no, we aren't going to burst into tears if they give us jobs in a factories and overhear the men say cuss words."

    Both blacks and women worked hard to be treated like strong equals who could handle any sort of position. Lately, it seems like all our hard work has been undermined by attitudes of, "Oh the poor girl, she isn't responsible for getting herself to a party and back." and, "Oh the poor African American he can't get through life unless white people give him handouts and make excuses for him."
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    What the actual fuck, Twilight?
    You posted something that's racist. Period. That doesn't make you a racist, by itself. Stop overreacting and trying to kitchen-sink your defense in your need to "Always Face Against The Majority". Your bravery is as undeniable as your willingness to be an idiot about it.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    I'll also never go along with "believe women." It's not true that women never lie about these things and it's not fair that a man has to consider whether the woman is too drunk for consent, while she doesn't have to consider if he is too drunk for consent.

    What evidence do you have for this? Women can certainly rape* drunk men. If a man is too drunk to consent, and a woman has sex with him, she's a rapist. There's a whole list of reasons why this isn't a common thing.

    *Depending on your jurisdiction, a woman having sexual contact with a non-consenting man either commits rape or sexual assault.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    Both blacks and women worked hard to be treated like strong equals who could handle any sort of position. Lately, it seems like all our hard work has been undermined by attitudes of, "Oh the poor girl, she isn't responsible for getting herself to a party and back." and, "Oh the poor African American he can't get through life unless white people give him handouts and make excuses for him."

    Again, no one has said this. No one. You're tilting at windmills, and we're all standing around wondering WTAF is going on.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    @Twilight, among the things that always stick with me about the Brock Turner case is the way that his daddy sniveled that poor little Brockie was suffering far too much for "20 minutes of action," and didn't enjoy eating his favorite steaks anymore. If Turner was unable to consummate his "20 minutes of action," that's almost certainly due to his own drunkenness; in any case, he certainly deserves no sympathy. Thank God those grad students came along when they did, or Chanel Miller could have died of his brutality. The whole thing is absolutely inexcusable, and I am appalled that you think otherwise.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    RooK wrote: »
    What the actual fuck, Twilight?
    You posted something that's racist. Period. That doesn't make you a racist, by itself. Stop overreacting and trying to kitchen-sink your defense in your need to "Always Face Against The Majority". Your bravery is as undeniable as your willingness to be an idiot about it.

    Seconded, almost. I think everyone is racist and the sooner we all woke up to that fact and addressed our own internal racism the better. This goes maybe x4 for white people in Europe and its post-colonial outliers.


    Twilight wrote: »
    See, now there's the patronizing , Lady Bountiful attitude from liberal whites that I would really hate if I was black. Our society is structurally racist, just as it is structurally sexist, but I and my fellow citizens who happen to be black are self-determining, autonomous people in charge of our own moral decisions. You can't make us do violence to anyone.

    This is a very very very important point. Hyper-important. We touchy-feely types need to print this out and nail it to our dunny door. I used a dunny once that had a print out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion nailed to the noticeboard at eye-level, next to a WWF call to save the koalas. It was a weird juxtaposition.

    I know this is important because every time I try to excuse wrongdoing by pointing to childhood poverty my wife chucks her slipper at me. I love my wife, and am very proud of her achievements. She went to the same high school as former Australian Test Cricket Captain, Ricky Ponting, who also grew up in straightened circumstances. Yay for the welfare state!!!
  • missed edit window: Brave Harold Yarwood from Yorkshire didn't captain the English Test team, even though he was the most feared fast bowler of his day. No. It was the ponce Jardine, with the judgement of a pineapple, who got the nod and almost caused a riot at the Adelaide Oval.
  • Simon Toad--

    ;) {Ponders.}

    Oh, that's about that "cricket" thing you folks go on about, right?
    ;)
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    missed edit window: Brave Harold Yarwood from Yorkshire didn't captain the English Test team, even though he was the most feared fast bowler of his day. No. It was the ponce Jardine, with the judgement of a pineapple, who got the nod and almost caused a riot at the Adelaide Oval.

    Oh goodie, homophobia to go with the racism, like dogshit dropped onto a cowpat.
  • RooK wrote: »
    What the actual fuck, Twilight?
    You posted something that's racist. Period. That doesn't make you a racist, by itself. Stop overreacting and trying to kitchen-sink your defense in your need to "Always Face Against The Majority". Your bravery is as undeniable as your willingness to be an idiot about it.

    Exactly. Admit it, apologise, accept the life lesson and vow to do better next time. Admitting to yourself that you said the bad thing isn't a nice feeling, but it's better than doubling down and refusing to admit it at all.

    I also love the fact that you will always speak up for the underdog. I just wish you'd pick your underdog more carefully.

    A man who uses a drunk woman like a thing for his own pleasure and would have walked away when he was done if he hadn't been spotted doesn't deserve anyone's compassion.

    Chanel Miller didn't write her book to get all the lolz from the liberal, feminist establishment - whatever the hell that is - but to remind people that she is a person, created in the image of God, who deserved / deserves better.

    As for the rest of it, no one here is saying those things. If that's what you're listening too at home, please change the channel.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    missed edit window: Brave Harold Yarwood from Yorkshire didn't captain the English Test team, even though he was the most feared fast bowler of his day. No. It was the ponce Jardine, with the judgement of a pineapple, who got the nod and almost caused a riot at the Adelaide Oval.

    Oh goodie, homophobia to go with the racism, like dogshit dropped onto a cowpat.

    Was Jardine gay? I had no idea. I called him a ponce because he was a rich turd from a wealthy background. Daddy was a lawyer don't you know. Wikipedia tells me Jardine was educated at Winchester, no less, and went on to New College Oxford. Was he a catholic, do you think?

    I first met the word ponce in the famous bar scene in Withnail and I, where it is spoken by a drunk Irishman a little smaller than me. The gentleman is rather threatening, but the only person who is actually accused of being gay in the scene is that drunken Irishman. I attach the scene for your reference.

    I used the word as a general insult, but I appreciate (genuinely) that it has been used and is used in a homophobic manner. Is it archaic in the UK? It certainly is in Australia, if it was ever used.

    Would you say that Withnail and I is a homophobic movie? It might well be. I found the character of Uncle Monty delightful (clip attached), but it was certainly a comic portrayal. And the fear of I, the genuine fear, was that homophobic, or was he just uncomfortable with the idea of being ravaged by Monty? I think the scene in the bar, and his drug-induced fear of being fucked in the arse, suggests that the character of I is indeed homophobic, reflecting the public mores of young men in the 1960's (and beyond). And having watched the clip I just linked, there is no doubt in my mind. I is homophobic.

    Its interesting, @Arethosemyfeet . Do you think the portrayal of such a homophobic character as I is acceptable in the film? And do you have any comment about the substantive issue I raised in my earlier post, or are you just in the mood to be judgy?


    But more importantly, the cricketer is Harold Larwood. My apologies.
  • I'm just not in the mood for homophobic insults, whether the target is gay or not.
  • so judgy without engaging it is.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    so judgy without engaging it is.

    No. Judgy would be calling you a homophobe. Or commenting on your tedious tendency to try and work cricket into things.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Twilight wrote: »
    You want me to look at myself and find racism? Maybe some of you should look at yourself and wonder if you ever think for yourself or just keep following the conventional liberal position of the moment. Ask yourself why you give yourself permission to hate white men on such a grand scale and only apply the "look for the goodness in everyone" as @Fineline was saying she does, to people like George Floyd and never to a Turner or God forbid a Chauvin?

    Why am I being quoted here out of context? Link? I thought I said everyone was a mix of good and bad. I don't, by the way, look for the good in literally everyone, as I don't know everyone, and wouldn't have time to look for good in them all even if I did, as there are billions of people in the world. I look for good in people I have to deal with, as a way of connecting positively with them, but also observe their flaws and failings and bad aspects, and adjust my dealings with them accordingly. I also speak out against bad I see. Looking for good in people does not mean condoning racism, nor failing to look at one's own motivations with a critical eye, and observing one's own prejudices. Please don't use me to support what you are saying here, Twilight, as I think you've kind of got it skewed.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    ....
    Both blacks and women worked hard to be treated like strong equals who could handle any sort of position. Lately, it seems like all our hard work has been undermined by attitudes of, "Oh the poor girl, she isn't responsible for getting herself to a party and back." and, "Oh the poor African American he can't get through life unless white people give him handouts and make excuses for him."

    No, what happened was women and people of colour and other minorities discovered that equality on paper was just that. Equality on paper is not equity in the real world.

    Women discovered that being "equal" meant still getting paid less and fighting for maternity benefits - because if you want to be "equal" to men you can't get pregnant. Ironically, we're also still fighting for access to birth control and abortion. We discovered that we are still classified as madonnas or whores and still blamed for being raped except when we're told we lie about being raped. Black Americans found that while Jim Crow was supposedly gone, he was replaced by the war on drugs, mass incarceration, prison labour, under-resourced education, red-lining, discrimination, voter suppression, and relentless police abuse. Justice is not a handout.

    So fuck off with your "all our hard work has been undermined". The really hard work is just beginning.
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