Let's put lilbuddha in charge

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Comments

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    @Lamb Chopped - that quote wasn't from me. It was lilbuddha here, here I did say:
    I don't know Exclamation Mark, but many of the things he says ring true about settled traveller families I've worked with
    and
    Just like with Exclamation Mark - you're asserting that he cannot possibly have any Roma or traveller heritage, with, I suspect, precisely zero experience of settled Roma or travellers in the UK. here

    and this here:
    Coming back to this, and assuming that what is meant is a conversation not an attempt at conversion, and not as a defence of Exclamation Mark but an explanation what it was like growing up in rural Britain in the late 60s and 70s for me, and the 90s for my daughter. I suspect Exclamation Mark remembers earlier.


    and @lilbuddha I've come across that red hair with fair freckled skin combination in the Afro-Caribbean community before - for example, this guy. One of the mixed race, obviously Caribbean heritage kids I worked with had a blue-eyed, fair-haired grandmother and mother, but the rest of his family had all shades of skin, hair and eyes. His father and grandfather were very much black Caribbean.
    Fuck me. It is not her hair colour or freckles that are contra indicators to blackness. It is her basic features. The man in the link you gave has features typivally associated with blackness. This very pale young lady has those features as well. And "black" features and colour vary like Hell even in Africa. None of which is about the point I was making.
    Until you demonstrate you are actually reading what I am saying and address my answers to your statements instead of leapfrogging them, I'm not sure engaging with you makes any sense.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    With due caution as I may well be wrong - is it possible that the problem we're encountering is different definitions of the term "white"? I mean, in one definition it may be possible to be both "white" and "GRT" (as for example if a GRT person self-described themselves as both GRT and white) and in another definition "white" means "people from the dominant culture" and therefore excludes GRT people? That could explain how we have two schools of thought about whether someone GRT is or is not "white".
    Incidentally I had no idea what GRT meant before this thread and I also had no idea the A in BAME meant Asian so I'm certainly no expert.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    HelenEva wrote: »
    With due caution as I may well be wrong - is it possible that the problem we're encountering is different definitions of the term "white"? I mean, in one definition it may be possible to be both "white" and "GRT" (as for example if a GRT person self-described themselves as both GRT and white) and in another definition "white" means "people from the dominant culture" and therefore excludes GRT people? That could explain how we have two schools of thought about whether someone GRT is or is not "white".
    Incidentally I had no idea what GRT meant before this thread and I also had no idea the A in BAME meant Asian so I'm certainly no expert.
    When I speak of white in these conversation, I am speaking of the dominant culture. White people in groups like ethnic minorities like GRT are not part of that power structure.
  • BAME with Asian separated out is relatively recent. The confusion may be that the previous term was BME for Black and Minority Ethnic, which again largely displaced the older idea of "politically black".

    This thread is the first time I gathered that the 'A' was supposed to be Asian rather than 'and', spelled out so that you could pronounce it with one syllable.
    It and the UK terminology don't encompass indigenous people who are also brownish in skin colours.

    The UK doesn't have indigenous people. Neolithic Britons were basically completely replaced by the Beaker people. Their culture, in turn, has been replaced by successive waves of invaders, although modern Brits probably have significant genetic inheritance from the Beaker people.

    But I wonder why you say the UK term "BAME" wouldn't encompass indigenous people in Canada - surely they would qualify as "minority ethnic"?
    The use of the term "minority ethnic" would be found offensive by indigenous peoples in Canada I think. Don't think anyone would dare say something like that.

    In my part of Canada we're hearing settler, colonist, immigrant for non-indigenous folks. Where the starting point of referring to people is not the European-derived group; it's really a dispute that the settler-colonists should be the starting point for a term to refer to people.

    BAME to my perception other-izes people the dominant group wishes to distinguish themselves from. Does a brown person ever get admitted to the "I'm English" group? After 5 generations? Never? A Polish person if they speak with the right accent immediately?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    BAME to my perception other-izes people the dominant group wishes to distinguish themselves from. Does a brown person ever get admitted to the "I'm English" group? After 5 generations? Never?
    For some people it is never. On my father's side, I've history back near a thousand years. And white people of a mere hundred, and sometime much less, tell me to go back to where I came from.
    A Polish person if they speak with the right accent immediately?
    A white person gets to be plain British if they conform. A Black person is Black British, on a good day.

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    lilbuddha is not being yelled at for being racist, but for asserting that her gate keeping,
    Yeah, that is kinda bullshit. Only white people think identity is something one can choose. White is a blank slate to which things are added, brown and black begin with a host of assumptions and prejudice. White GRT ar born into a world of the same, yes, but it is not their whiteness that brings attracts the assumptions.

    None of this diminishes what GRT go through. Whilst quantifying suffering is fraught, IMO there are some ways the prejudice GRT face can be worse. If someone puts up a sign saying No Black people, they will likely face legal action. If they put up a no traveller sign, they will often be supported by the local authorities. BUt none of this, or your statistics has ONE. GODDAMN. THING. to do with what I have been arguing with EM about.
    information and world view is the one and only correct one.
    Obsiouly I think My POV is the correct one or I would not be arguing it. Same can be said for you.
    But if you are going to attack my view, for fuck's sake get it right.

    Some of your assumptions here are not quite true. White is not a blank slate. You yourself are willing to make assumptions as to what white means. You point out privilege and yet thousands of those on the street are white. I could go on. Hear me before you reply. I am disagreeing on the idea of a blank slate and am not saying that BAME people are not suffering because of their background and the colour of their skin they are. I am disputing the idea of a blank slate.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    lilbuddha is not being yelled at for being racist, but for asserting that her gate keeping,
    Yeah, that is kinda bullshit. Only white people think identity is something one can choose. White is a blank slate to which things are added, brown and black begin with a host of assumptions and prejudice. White GRT ar born into a world of the same, yes, but it is not their whiteness that brings attracts the assumptions.

    None of this diminishes what GRT go through. Whilst quantifying suffering is fraught, IMO there are some ways the prejudice GRT face can be worse. If someone puts up a sign saying No Black people, they will likely face legal action. If they put up a no traveller sign, they will often be supported by the local authorities. BUt none of this, or your statistics has ONE. GODDAMN. THING. to do with what I have been arguing with EM about.
    information and world view is the one and only correct one.
    Obsiouly I think My POV is the correct one or I would not be arguing it. Same can be said for you.
    But if you are going to attack my view, for fuck's sake get it right.

    Some of your assumptions here are not quite true. White is not a blank slate. You yourself are willing to make assumptions as to what white means. You point out privilege and yet thousands of those on the street are white. I could go on. Hear me before you reply. I am disagreeing on the idea of a blank slate and am not saying that BAME people are not suffering because of their background and the colour of their skin they are. I am disputing the idea of a blank slate.
    OK, so tell me how, In the UK, the US, Canada, Ireland, France, Australia, Spain, Germany, etc does white have preconceptions in the dominant culture?

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    It's not recorded, the courts and police were noted to be failing in this regard under the latest, 2019, review.

    I suspect there are ways to start searching to find the cases this chamber is involved in, if you're a lawyer, but it's not an area I'm familiar with. GRT cases are not the only speciality of this chambers, so it wouldn't be straightforward.

    Thanks. Chambers in England, and indeed the other States here, re organised rather differently to those in my home State.
  • BAME to my perception other-izes people the dominant group wishes to distinguish themselves from. Does a brown person ever get admitted to the "I'm English" group? After 5 generations? Never? A Polish person if they speak with the right accent immediately?

    Depends what you mean by "I'm English".

    How a person thinks, and views themselves? How they are viewed by other people? BAME (and similar markers) are not about self-identity - they're about how people are treated by the dominant culture.

    In the case of black people, this is more or less determined by how they look. If you look black, you're black, and will get treated that way. Because racism. (And I'll remind you that it's because of racism that we need descriptors like "BAME" - as a handy way of capturing the people that are at systematic risk of racist discrimination.) And the corollary is true - if you don't look black, you don't get the penalty of being treated as black, however you view yourself.

    Like lilbuddha says, a black Briton could be culturally identical to his white neighbours, but he'll be treated as black. He might not identify with anything that one might call "black culture" at all, and it won't matter, because he looks black.
  • The use of the term "minority ethnic" would be found offensive by indigenous peoples in Canada I think. Don't think anyone would dare say something like that.

    Offensive because they want their status as the original inhabitants of the landmass that have been displaced by settlers recognized, and not doing that is offensive? Or because you think they'd read something inherently offensive in the term?
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    The use of the term "minority ethnic" would be found offensive by indigenous peoples in Canada I think. Don't think anyone would dare say something like that.

    Offensive because they want their status as the original inhabitants of the landmass that have been displaced by settlers recognized, and not doing that is offensive? Or because you think they'd read something inherently offensive in the term?

    Generally speaking, the former rather than the latter. We have several broad demographic categories for statistical purposes in Canada, and aboriginal/indigenous and "visible minority" have always been two separate categories.

    Aboriginal peoples (as the terminology then was) were given constitutional status when Canada patriated its constitution in 1982 - broadly speaking this status is based on their presence here before the Europeans arrived.

  • Curiosity Killed--it wasn't any of your posts I was referring to, it goes back before that.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    lilbuddha is not being yelled at for being racist, but for asserting that her gate keeping,
    Yeah, that is kinda bullshit. Only white people think identity is something one can choose. White is a blank slate to which things are added, brown and black begin with a host of assumptions and prejudice. White GRT ar born into a world of the same, yes, but it is not their whiteness that brings attracts the assumptions.

    None of this diminishes what GRT go through. Whilst quantifying suffering is fraught, IMO there are some ways the prejudice GRT face can be worse. If someone puts up a sign saying No Black people, they will likely face legal action. If they put up a no traveller sign, they will often be supported by the local authorities. BUt none of this, or your statistics has ONE. GODDAMN. THING. to do with what I have been arguing with EM about.
    information and world view is the one and only correct one.
    Obsiouly I think My POV is the correct one or I would not be arguing it. Same can be said for you.
    But if you are going to attack my view, for fuck's sake get it right.

    Some of your assumptions here are not quite true. White is not a blank slate. You yourself are willing to make assumptions as to what white means. You point out privilege and yet thousands of those on the street are white. I could go on. Hear me before you reply. I am disagreeing on the idea of a blank slate and am not saying that BAME people are not suffering because of their background and the colour of their skin they are. I am disputing the idea of a blank slate.
    OK, so tell me how, In the UK, the US, Canada, Ireland, France, Australia, Spain, Germany, etc does white have preconceptions in the dominant culture?

    Yes. When you say white it brings to mind certain things. I bet the image of white to many is middle class not those struggling working class people who work all hours or cannot find a job.
    What ever designation you use will bring to mind certain things. You cannot say white is a blank slate it just isn’t
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    You can bet what you like, but it just means "not black, not Asian, not other" to me.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    I thought comparing our definitions of "white" might illuminate how some of us see (no pun intended) people whose skin is pale but who are not of the dominant culture as able to pass for members of the dominant "white" culture, and others see them as perceived by society to be different and therefore not able to take advantage of the privileges of the dominant culture. For example, an Irish person might be white and look exactly like an English person as regards skin tone, but also not be perceived as a part of the dominant English culture in England and thus suffer discrimination. I'm thinking of the awful "no dogs, no Blacks, no Irish" signs landladies apparently used to put in their windows.
  • HelenEva wrote: »
    I thought comparing our definitions of "white" might illuminate how some of us see (no pun intended) people whose skin is pale but who are not of the dominant culture as able to pass for members of the dominant "white" culture, and others see them as perceived by society to be different and therefore not able to take advantage of the privileges of the dominant culture. For example, an Irish person might be white and look exactly like an English person as regards skin tone, but also not be perceived as a part of the dominant English culture in England and thus suffer discrimination. I'm thinking of the awful "no dogs, no Blacks, no Irish" signs landladies apparently used to put in their windows.

    Intriguingly the right are now trying to claim these were faked. Talk about erasing history.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    HelenEva wrote: »
    I thought comparing our definitions of "white" might illuminate how some of us see (no pun intended) people whose skin is pale but who are not of the dominant culture as able to pass for members of the dominant "white" culture, and others see them as perceived by society to be different and therefore not able to take advantage of the privileges of the dominant culture. For example, an Irish person might be white and look exactly like an English person as regards skin tone, but also not be perceived as a part of the dominant English culture in England and thus suffer discrimination. I'm thinking of the awful "no dogs, no Blacks, no Irish" signs landladies apparently used to put in their windows.
    It is NOT their whiteness, but the Irishness that is the problem. And despite stereotypes, there is no standard appearance to being Irish.
    Yes, there are different way to discriminate than colour and that is a problem as well, but is not what we are talking about here.
    BTW, Jimmy Carr is Irish, how many of his audience know? Michael Caine is of Irish descent, poor man's career has been stunted by that, I'm sure. Too bad Tom Daily's Irishness kept him out of diving, I hear he's pretty good. Too bad Diana Spencer's Irish ancestry never allowed the family to get anywhere politically.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    lilbuddha is not being yelled at for being racist, but for asserting that her gate keeping,
    Yeah, that is kinda bullshit. Only white people think identity is something one can choose. White is a blank slate to which things are added, brown and black begin with a host of assumptions and prejudice. White GRT ar born into a world of the same, yes, but it is not their whiteness that brings attracts the assumptions.

    None of this diminishes what GRT go through. Whilst quantifying suffering is fraught, IMO there are some ways the prejudice GRT face can be worse. If someone puts up a sign saying No Black people, they will likely face legal action. If they put up a no traveller sign, they will often be supported by the local authorities. BUt none of this, or your statistics has ONE. GODDAMN. THING. to do with what I have been arguing with EM about.
    information and world view is the one and only correct one.
    Obsiouly I think My POV is the correct one or I would not be arguing it. Same can be said for you.
    But if you are going to attack my view, for fuck's sake get it right.

    Some of your assumptions here are not quite true. White is not a blank slate. You yourself are willing to make assumptions as to what white means. You point out privilege and yet thousands of those on the street are white. I could go on. Hear me before you reply. I am disagreeing on the idea of a blank slate and am not saying that BAME people are not suffering because of their background and the colour of their skin they are. I am disputing the idea of a blank slate.
    OK, so tell me how, In the UK, the US, Canada, Ireland, France, Australia, Spain, Germany, etc does white have preconceptions in the dominant culture?

    Yes. When you say white it brings to mind certain things. I bet the image of white to many is middle class not those struggling working class people who work all hours or cannot find a job.
    Bullshit. Fucking hell, I'll admit to a bit of surge in blood pressure on this one.
    Working class not white? Look at these darkies. Or this black bastard.
    If you mean there is a stratification within society that means not all white people benefit to the same degree, then there is no excrement, detective.
    But within each socio-economic strata, white gives advantage over black.

    To posit that white references socio-economic status rather than skin colour seems mind-numbingly stupid. Since I don't think you are actually stupid, I have to look for other reasons.
    The least offensive motive that I can attribute is the blindness that being white allows and not wanting to accept that your white skin confers a degree of power and therefore responsibility.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    lilbuddha is not being yelled at for being racist, but for asserting that her gate keeping,
    Yeah, that is kinda bullshit. Only white people think identity is something one can choose. White is a blank slate to which things are added, brown and black begin with a host of assumptions and prejudice. White GRT ar born into a world of the same, yes, but it is not their whiteness that brings attracts the assumptions.

    None of this diminishes what GRT go through. Whilst quantifying suffering is fraught, IMO there are some ways the prejudice GRT face can be worse. If someone puts up a sign saying No Black people, they will likely face legal action. If they put up a no traveller sign, they will often be supported by the local authorities. BUt none of this, or your statistics has ONE. GODDAMN. THING. to do with what I have been arguing with EM about.
    information and world view is the one and only correct one.
    Obsiouly I think My POV is the correct one or I would not be arguing it. Same can be said for you.
    But if you are going to attack my view, for fuck's sake get it right.

    Some of your assumptions here are not quite true. White is not a blank slate. You yourself are willing to make assumptions as to what white means. You point out privilege and yet thousands of those on the street are white. I could go on. Hear me before you reply. I am disagreeing on the idea of a blank slate and am not saying that BAME people are not suffering because of their background and the colour of their skin they are. I am disputing the idea of a blank slate.
    OK, so tell me how, In the UK, the US, Canada, Ireland, France, Australia, Spain, Germany, etc does white have preconceptions in the dominant culture?

    Yes. When you say white it brings to mind certain things. I bet the image of white to many is middle class not those struggling working class people who work all hours or cannot find a job.
    Bullshit. Fucking hell, I'll admit to a bit of surge in blood pressure on this one.
    Working class not white? Look at these darkies. Or this black bastard.
    If you mean there is a stratification within society that means not all white people benefit to the same degree, then there is no excrement, detective.
    But within each socio-economic strata, white gives advantage over black.

    To posit that white references socio-economic status rather than skin colour seems mind-numbingly stupid. Since I don't think you are actually stupid, I have to look for other reasons.
    The least offensive motive that I can attribute is the blindness that being white allows and not wanting to accept that your white skin confers a degree of power and therefore responsibility.

    You seem to be reading something into what I said that I did not put there. Not for the first time. I said White is not a blank page. Assumptions are made about those who are white. I picked up on you saying white is a blank page that things are added too. I said nothing about racism or who holds the power and who doesn’t, who has privilege and who doesn’t and I made it clear that was not my intention. I simply say that white is loaded term as much as any other. Have I made myself clear?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    You said white means middle class and that is bullshit so deep the the cattle have drowned.
    White is invisible in British society. What are these supposed assumptions?
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    You said white means middle class

    That is not what Hugal said. There was a clear statement about ASSUMPTIONS and ASSOCIATIONS with an image of 'white'. So posting a whole lot of angry stuff about how those assumptions and associations aren't true completely misses the point. The claim wasn't that they are true, just that they exist.

  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    What are these supposed assumptions?

    How about the assumption that if you’re white then you have power in society?
  • Trying to explain why black and white aren't the issues you see them as in the UK, I don't look at someone with a fair skin and think white, I think Scandinavian, Eastern European, Mediterranean, English, American, NZ/Aussie/SA and various other gradations - and wait for them to open their mouths before narrowing that placement. An English accent will place them around the UK and/or their class. In the same way I see someone with a darker skin and think Middle Eastern, Afro-Caribbean, African, Indian subcontinent, Chinese, Japanese, Sikh and a whole lot more and also wait for them to talk before placing them further. I'm more accurate with my placement the more familiar I am with people from those areas.

    As @Leorning Cniht said here,
    "Sounding like an ordinary English person" isn't a choice that most people make. Most people don't consciously choose their accents - they adopt the accent of those they spend time with in their youth. They speak they way they are taught.

    In the UK people are judged by their accents and appearance continuously. Across the UK we have 14% BAME (35% in London) and 86% white. We assess those so-called white people on a whole range of things: appearance, accent, dialect, clothing, hair style and colour. A smartly dressed black African with a plummy accent would be read very differently to a scruffy white guy with a rough accent and would be regarded as higher up the scale that the scruffy white guy. That's not to say that the black guy wouldn't be discriminated against in middle class or upper class circles.

    Across most of the UK groups are formed of like people. I am unusual in that I chameleon accents. It came about the usual way that happens - attending the local primary school, I got the local accent beaten into me, and beaten back out of me at home. And then we moved around, giving me a range of accents to acquire. I still pick up any local accent if I'm there for any length of time. I code switch between people I'm talking to, so I have been talking to a group of people, picked up the phone to someone with another accent and switched. It had huge repercussions because the group I was with read it as me faking to fit in with them, not really part of them, stopped trusting me and excluded me from the things we'd been doing formerly.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I've come across that red hair with fair freckled skin combination in the Afro-Caribbean community before - for example, this guy. One of the mixed race, obviously Caribbean heritage kids I worked with had a blue-eyed, fair-haired grandmother and mother, but the rest of his family had all shades of skin, hair and eyes. His father and grandfather were very much black Caribbean.
    Fuck me. It is not her hair colour or freckles that are contra indicators to blackness. It is her basic features. The man in the link you gave has features typivally associated with blackness. This very pale young lady has those features as well. And "black" features and colour vary like Hell even in Africa. None of which is about the point I was making.
    Until you demonstrate you are actually reading what I am saying and address my answers to your statements instead of leapfrogging them, I'm not sure engaging with you makes any sense.
    I am amazed you cannot see that Maria Aylmer has a fuckton of make up on her face, including contouring, and straightened hair, There's a lot of work there to play up the differences. She looked like this as a child with a very similar face shape to her twin. If you see family pictures the whole family have a range of colourings and features.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    You said white means middle class

    That is not what Hugal said. There was a clear statement about ASSUMPTIONS and ASSOCIATIONS with an image of 'white'. So posting a whole lot of angry stuff about how those assumptions and associations aren't true completely misses the point. The claim wasn't that they are true, just that they exist.
    But white doesn't not have those assumption. Say it all you want, but it is a rubbish concept that serves no purpose other than to diminish the problems minority ethnic people face.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    What are these supposed assumptions?

    How about the assumption that if you’re white then you have power in society?
    That is not an assumption. Whilst the amount of power a white person has, by default, it is going to be more than a minority ethnic person in the same category.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    What are these supposed assumptions?

    How about the assumption that if you’re white then you have power in society?
    That is not an assumption. Whilst the amount of power a white person has, by default, it is going to be more than a minority ethnic person in the same category.

    And what power they don't have, they don't not have* because they're white.

    *intentional double negative.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Trying to explain why black and white aren't the issues you see them as in the UK,
    You are really going to whitesplain this to me? Try walking the UK in my skin and then get back to me.
    I don't look at someone with a fair skin and think white, I think Scandinavian, Eastern European, Mediterranean, English, American, NZ/Aussie/SA and various other gradations - and wait for them to open their mouths before narrowing that placement.
    What you, or any given individual, see is irrelevant. We are discussing how white society view people. If a white person of X group walks by, white society sees person of x group. If a black person of the same walks by, white people see black person of X group.

    That white people might sometimes differentiate other white people is irrelevant to the basic problem of racism.

    Let that sink in. Think about it. Do you disagree with this?
    I am amazed you cannot see that Maria Aylmer has a fuckton of make up on her face, including contouring, and straightened hair, There's a lot of work there to play up the differences. She looked like this as a child with a very similar face shape to her twin. If you see family pictures the whole family have a range of colourings and features.
    Good lord, now you are whitesplaining mixed-race to me?

    None of your bit here has anything to do with the reality that ginger haired Lucy will have an easier time in White Britain than brown-skinned Maria. She was white skinned as a kid, she'll be white skinned as an adult and 99.99999999999999999999999 percent of Britain will see her as white. If her schoolmates, who had her sister right fucking there to compare her to, didn't believe she was black, why the fuck would people on the street?

    Unless you think racism doesn't exist, what the actual fuck is your point here?

    I bloody well understand that there are socio-economic factors, intra-white perceptual issues and that individual interactions have potential variables. This does not change what I am talking about.

    Black is the ultimate multiplier of disadvantage in the UK and US. NOt sure why this is so difficult.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin
    edited June 2020
    Hostly furry hat on

    Yeah, and we're done here. This thread has long ceased to be a Hell call for a specific individual, and turned into a discussion of identity and passing, which would work far better elsewhere. Accordingly, after conferring with the other H&As, I hereby pronounce it closed.

    DT
    HH
This discussion has been closed.