Karen

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Comments

  • OK, and while you are fired up about how people behave - could you do some anti-racist work as well.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    One, it is the nature of comparisons that degree of the comparators will be considered, especially if no caveat is included.
    Two, calling a person a Karen is not racist. It is calling out the white privilege that a particular subset of white people have.
    Three, the sexism involved is not on the user of the name, but in the dynamic that allows white women to play the victim card when actually being the aggressor. Actually, this one is a twofer as it tags both racism and sexism.
    Four, it is not really ageist either. Young women typically do not have the confidence nor believability of the middle-age and older women are more likely to be fearful of immediate reprisal. So it is natural that the main body of the behaviour will be displayed by middle-aged women.

    Yes, how dare women actually have confidence as they get older...
    Way to miss the point. I am not saying women shouldn't gain confidence, just pointing the mechanics.
    orfeo wrote: »
    The rest... well that's nothing more than justifying stereotyping by claiming that this behaviour is correlated with that same demographic. Shock horror. Older women have more confidence than younger women. White people have more assertiveness than black people. No shit Sherlock.
    One, it is not stereotyping the name Karen. No one, not even the users, think all middle-aged white women named Karen exhibit this behaviour. Two, it is not stereotyping all middle-aged white women.
    orfeo wrote: »
    But it's still stereotyping. It's still taking a name of women and not giving a damn whether or not they've actually engaged in the behaviour. And it's doing that because of their gender, age and race.
    By your logic, calling out white privilege is racist. Because that is exactly what this is.I've liad out the logic.
    orfeo wrote: »
    I really don't get you. You know why? Because you've gone and said how calling people insulting names is not okay, and yet here you are again and again and again lining up all these reasons why.
    I've never once said that using the name Karen as an insult is OK. I believe I've indicated the opposite.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    In regards to age, younger white women aren't Karen, they're Becky - Becky doesn't yet have the confidence to weaponize her privilege, she just presumes upon it.
  • According to a young Facebook friend, Karen's daughter is Emily on TikTok, "but any white girl name will do".

  • lb--
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    Thanks for this. I thought it was very recent--I think one of the white women severely harassing African Americans publicly, in the last several weeks, was actually named "Karen".

    And no, the term isn't going to do anywhere near the level of damage that mistreatment of African Americans does all the time. But having your name made fun of does cause its own kind of pain and damage, IME. Especially over a period of time and/or when there are very bad associations.
  • Stelaaaaaaaaaaaa!
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Louise wrote: »
    The idea of 'fragile' white femininity being menaced by Black people is a racist belief and racists act on it and weaponise it. It is not sexist to draw attention to this.

    I don't know if you had in mind my comment about white women being more likely to call the police than white men, but either way, I take your point.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    lb--
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    Thanks for this. I thought it was very recent--I think one of the white women severely harassing African Americans publicly, in the last several weeks, was actually named "Karen".

    And no, the term isn't going to do anywhere near the level of damage that mistreatment of African Americans does all the time. But having your name made fun of does cause its own kind of pain and damage, IME. Especially over a period of time and/or when there are very bad associations.
    Again, I've not said that I think it is OK to use a name as an insult.
    My objection is to the comparison and the inaccurate calling it sexist, racist or ageist.
    No one seriously think that being named Karen has any associated behaviours. I'm not saying that makes everything OK, but there is no comparison.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    I wonder if women named Mary Sue think that other people mean them when they (the other people) talk about narcissistic traits in writers of fiction. Do they cry over coffee with their girlfriends, saying, "But I don't do that. Why would they use my name like that?"

    OK.

    1. "Mary Sue" is a reference to a specific character, so it's more like "Mrs Robinson" than "Karen".
    2. Social media is not full of people posting memes about Mary Sues
    3. "Mary Sue" isn't actually insulting to the person called "Mary Sue". A "Mary Sue" is unrealistically good. The "Karen" character is a thoroughly unpleasant racist. It is obviously insulting to be falsely called a "Karen".
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    We need some women named Karen to weigh in here. I wonder though: would they say that when they read an article or see a news video using "Karen" as an insult for a self-entitled middle-aged white woman who is acting out her self-entitlement in a certain way, do they think "They're saying all women named Karen are that way"? I can understand how it's obnoxious to have your name used as an insult, and despite what some upthread have said I do not approve of this use. However comparing it to racist or sexist insults or abuse is fatuous. It is not used in the same way.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    I'm not named Karen, but as noted I have talked to someone named Karen about the issue. She was mildly amused and did not seem concerned.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    Meme just means idea. Once a meme has spawned a new colloquialism whether it makes people sound racist or sexist or ridiculous depends on how they use it. If white people take something from Black social media and tweak it, that is appropriating it for their own ends. If I hadn't seen people trying to tell non-white people to shut up about discussing the race-related content of the expression which is still a key part of its usage, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    We need some women named Karen to weigh in here.
    orfeo wrote: »
    I know of at least 2 other women named Karen who are unhappy about this. One of them is reading this thread.
    I know 3 people named Karen. None of whom know the others, and all have mentioned this to me, 2 of them trying to understand if they are "allowed" to feel hurt or not.


  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Not have people weigh in for them. Weigh in. Read what I said. So we can talk back and forth about it. Nice try.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Your determination to declare that this is not a problem is obviously deep-seated.

    I didn't weigh in for them, and neither did NP. We both reported what women named Karen had actually said. Meanwhile, you're absolutely determined that the burden simply must fall on any woman named Karen who also happens to be a Shipmate.

    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen. What a wonderful Catch-22 the world has created, eh? Complain about the injustice of it all, and people will say "you see? proves we were right".

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    mousethief wrote: »
    Not have people weigh in for them. Weigh in. Read what I said. So we can talk back and forth about it. Nice try.

    Might I add there's no back and forth because you're not even claiming to speak for a bunch of Karens. You're just busy disbelieving.

    If you have a problem with people weighing in for Karens, why did Gwai not get a similar response to me? She knows a Karen who is okay with this.

    Which is fine by me, but you said nothing about her reporting this. No, because Gwai confirmed your point of view, a second-hand report was acceptable.
  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Gwai wrote: »
    If someone is bullied for having the name Karen, the problem isn't the name, it's the fucking bullies!

    Defending the phenomenon gives the bullies material to work with, though.

    Fixed broken quoting code. BroJames Purgatory Host
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    edited July 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Which is fine by me, but you said nothing about her reporting this. No, because Gwai confirmed your point of view, a second-hand report was acceptable.
    I presumed he did not find my response helpful either. It is a secondhand response also.

  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen

    Speaking from experience of being one of those, there's a much bigger risk I'll be called a cow or an interfering bitch, as per usual. When used by a white person, Karen is just a new and not very punchy variant on the more normal gamut of gendered insults women like me face if we intervene in situations where that is not wanted (eg.harridan, scold, shrew, nag), but if a non-white person was telling me that I was acting like a 'Karen', it's an accusation of using gendered racism to my advantage and that needs to be taken seriously. Nobody on this thread is arguing that they would use the word (I wouldn't) but if white men start hauling up non-white women about its usage then that risks being both sexist and racist.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Louise wrote: »
    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen

    Speaking from experience of being one of those, there's a much bigger risk I'll be called a cow or an interfering bitch, as per usual. When used by a white person, Karen is just a new and not very punchy variant on the more normal gamut of gendered insults women like me face if we intervene in situations where that is not wanted (eg.harridan, scold, shrew, nag), but if a non-white person was telling me that I was acting like a 'Karen', it's an accusation of using gendered racism to my advantage and that needs to be taken seriously. Nobody on this thread is arguing that they would use the word (I wouldn't) but if white men start hauling up non-white women about its usage then that risks being both sexist and racist.

    I agree with you up to a point.

    But the reason I'm seeing the word on Facebook so much is frankly because white people have happily adopted it. One of the friends I've called out on it is of Chinese descent and male. The rest are thoroughly white, and more of them have been male than female.

    In other words, I'm not a white man hauling up non-white women about the usage.

    It's now being used in these circles - left-wing and a bit younger than me - as a substitute for all of those gendered insults you refer to. One friend (one of the ones who listened and took this down after I complained) shared a 'joke' about how calling someone a Karen was the more polite substitute for calling them a cunt.

    EDIT: And when I complained, one of his other friends responded by saying that maybe being a cunt runs in the family.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Your determination to declare that this is not a problem is obviously deep-seated.

    I didn't weigh in for them, and neither did NP. We both reported what women named Karen had actually said. Meanwhile, you're absolutely determined that the burden simply must fall on any woman named Karen who also happens to be a Shipmate.

    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen. What a wonderful Catch-22 the world has created, eh? Complain about the injustice of it all, and people will say "you see? proves we were right".

    I said I wish we had a Karen here to talk to. I didn't say it wasn't a problem. I didn't say anything about your witness being not as good enough as Gwai's. Frankly I didn't even remember Gwai's. I said I wish we had a Karen here to talk to. What is so hard about this? Why are you so angry about such a simple wish? Why do you insist on reading so much into my words that simply isn't there? WTF, man.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Not have people weigh in for them. Weigh in. Read what I said. So we can talk back and forth about it. Nice try.

    Might I add there's no back and forth because you're not even claiming to speak for a bunch of Karens. You're just busy disbelieving.

    There's no back and forth with someone named Karen because there's no one named Karen here. Jesus Christ. For fuck's sake, all I said was I wished we had a real woman named Karen here so we could talk about it with her. Breathe.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Frankly I didn't even remember Gwai's.

    1. Your post
    2. Gwai's
    3. Post by Louise
    4. Mine.

    Saying you didn't even remember Gwai's post is just strange.

  • orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Frankly I didn't even remember Gwai's.

    1. Your post
    2. Gwai's
    3. Post by Louise
    4. Mine.

    Saying you didn't even remember Gwai's post is just strange.

    Dodge
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    No, it's not a dodge. It's pointing out to you that I referred you back to what had previously been said in the thread in exactly the same way that Gwai did. And in fact the reason I did it was because I saw it had already been done. It was consciously a supplement.

    I'm not the angry one here right now.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Not have people weigh in for them. Weigh in. Read what I said. So we can talk back and forth about it. Nice try.

    Might I add there's no back and forth because you're not even claiming to speak for a bunch of Karens. You're just busy disbelieving.

    There's no back and forth with someone named Karen because there's no one named Karen here. Jesus Christ. For fuck's sake, all I said was I wished we had a real woman named Karen here so we could talk about it with her. Breathe.

    I didn't say anything about a back and forth with someone named Karen. And neither did you. You said we can talk back and forth.
  • I can be a Karen for you guys if you really want me to.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited July 2020
    Sounds like your Facebook pals are misogynists then and their behaviour is the main problem and their favourite sexist word of the day to use while doing it is secondary to that. If there was a new trendy insult tomorrow for them to dunk on women who're not considered docile enough or who 'don't know their place' they'd be using that instead and the problem would still be there.

    Personally I'd tell them that, and if they continued the behaviour or pushed back on me I'd mute/unfriend them. I mostly left Facebook some time ago but on Twitter have friends posting anti-trans stuff. If they're not real life friends and the problem persists, I will try posting stuff to counter it, but if it keeps up, I mute or unfollow them. If they are real life friends I discuss it with them and let them know how I feel. If need be, after making it clear why I have a problem, I will mute them if they keep it up. If people won't engage with it and see the problem, then I don't see why I should have to bother with that on an unmoderated space which isn't set up for useful discussions as things are round here.

    Some reading I've found very useful and eloquent for pushing back on this kind of misogyny is Kate Manne's book 'Down Girl'. Oh and thank you for pushing back on this kind of behaviour, it's appreciated.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I can be a Karen for you guys if you really want me to.

    How many years experience do you have?
  • I can be very imaginative and empathetic when playing a racist person.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Not have people weigh in for them. Weigh in. Read what I said. So we can talk back and forth about it. Nice try.

    Might I add there's no back and forth because you're not even claiming to speak for a bunch of Karens. You're just busy disbelieving.

    There's no back and forth with someone named Karen because there's no one named Karen here. Jesus Christ. For fuck's sake, all I said was I wished we had a real woman named Karen here so we could talk about it with her. Breathe.

    I didn't say anything about a back and forth with someone named Karen. And neither did you. You said we can talk back and forth.

    No you misread me. The "we" was the people on the thread and a woman named Karen.

    Please don't try to figure out what my internal or emotional states are. You're clearly not good at it.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    I said I wish we had a Karen here to talk to. I didn't say it wasn't a problem.

    You said we need some.

    Honestly, out of the two of us, am I the only one who reads your posts?

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I can be very imaginative and empathetic when playing a racist person.

    And again, a wonderful demonstration of the conflation between being a woman named Karen and being a racist person. I expect you think you're being funny.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    I replied but I think it got buried in cross-posting
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen. What a wonderful Catch-22 the world has created, eh? Complain about the injustice of it all, and people will say "you see? proves we were right".
    Yes, people will misuse terms. You've misused racism, sexism and ageism in this thread. Misuse is not an argument against the use of a term.
    How messed up using Karen might be is in the individual responses from people called Karen. The good or the bad on the receiving end is in that and that alone.
    The two people called Karen that I asked don't care.

    Those who will attack assertive women did so before the name Karen became pejorative and will continue after it ceases to be.

    If your sister had been called Sally, would we be having this discussion?
  • orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    I said I wish we had a Karen here to talk to. I didn't say it wasn't a problem.

    You said we need some.

    Honestly, out of the two of us, am I the only one who reads your posts?

    Oh please. If you can't see in this context that these mean the same thing, you might as well not read any posts.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I can be very imaginative and empathetic when playing a racist person.

    And again, a wonderful demonstration of the conflation between being a woman named Karen and being a racist person. I expect you think you're being funny.

    as always :tongue: I'm actually with you on the issue, if I were to take a side. There are plenty of other things to call racists. Racist is a good one. Karen, I just don't get. I thought at first it might be a cultural reference I missed but I don't think it is. Its like someone pulled a name out of a hat and decided to go with it.

    I also agree that it is kind of mysoginist to have a gendered go at a woman who is being assertive/ having a breakdown. I genuinely think that some of the videos I have seen is of someone who has totally lost it, and needs a big hug.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I can be very imaginative and empathetic when playing a racist person.

    And again, a wonderful demonstration of the conflation between being a woman named Karen and being a racist person. I expect you think you're being funny.

    as always :tongue: I'm actually with you on the issue, if I were to take a side. There are plenty of other things to call racists. Racist is a good one. Karen, I just don't get. I thought at first it might be a cultural reference I missed but I don't think it is. Its like someone pulled a name out of a hat and decided to go with it.
    Probably exactly what happened. People like shorthand.

  • RussRuss Shipmate
    Louise wrote: »
    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen

    Speaking from experience of being one of those, there's a much bigger risk I'll be called a cow or an interfering bitch, as per usual.

    When used by a white person, Karen is just a new and not very punchy variant on the more normal gamut of gendered insults women like me face if we intervene in situations where that is not wanted (eg.harridan, scold, shrew, nag), but if a non-white person was telling me that I was acting like a 'Karen', it's an accusation of using gendered racism to my advantage and that needs to be taken seriously. Nobody on this thread is arguing that they would use the word (I wouldn't) but if white men start hauling up non-white women about its usage then that risks being both sexist and racist.

    Twitter & other social media platforms spread these new "trending" usages. Tapping into something in human nature.

    In doing so, the meaning of the term can evolve. So far on this thread, I think it's been suggested that being a Karen, in this new usage, means:
    - an assertive woman
    - a woman acting out a sense of entitlement
    - a woman of a certain age, race, and class (regardless of her behaviour)
    - a woman who engages in the specific behaviour of calling the police about a black man.

    Your and my sense of what the term means are likely to be subtly different, depending on the usage we've encountered. Maybe each would be some mix of the above.

    Does it matter ?

    I would say no. That giving a name a derogatory meaning is wronging the people who go by that name. Regardless of the exact meaning. And regardless of whether any individual with that name is big enough to shrug it off. (Or is deeply hurt. Or is somewhat hurt but wouldn't dream of showing it. Or whatever).

    But that's because my ethics involve the motion that actions can be inherently wrong. In the tradition of commandments like the one about not bearing false witness.

    And of course, if an action is wrong, then it's wrong whether black people or white people, men or women do it. And black people or white people, men or women, can notice this fact and politely point it out and ask them not to. Because that's part of treating people as people.

  • Re actual women named Karen:

    I found these with a Duck Duck Go search on "I'm a Karen". The results are interspersed with definitions; so if you search on your own, you may have to scroll down a bit.

    --"Yes, I'm a Karen, and the meme is becoming tiresome" (The World News).

    tl;dr She's only been aware of the social media meme for the last year or so. Before that, she experienced bad reactions to it, mostly from people from higher classes and background who thought it was common. (She seems to be an Aussie at Oxford.) She also talks about the sexist aspect.

    --"Mister Manners: Help! I’m Karen — not a ‘Karen’" (Chicago Tribune, and no sign of paywall).

    tl;dr: Advice column. IMHO, Mr. M handles it well and kindly.

    --"I’m Karen, but am I a Karen?" (Bangor Daily News).

    tldr: Somewhat different perspective, and from fall of 2019.

    Skimming through the results and various other things, seems like there are many versions of the "Karen" stereotype/meme.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    mousethief wrote: »
    We need some women named Karen to weigh in here. I wonder though: would they say that when they read an article or see a news video using "Karen" as an insult for a self-entitled middle-aged white woman who is acting out her self-entitlement in a certain way, do they think "They're saying all women named Karen are that way"? I can understand how it's obnoxious to have your name used as an insult, and despite what some upthread have said I do not approve of this use. However comparing it to racist or sexist insults or abuse is fatuous. It is not used in the same way.


    I asked my friend, Karen.

    Like me, she’d never heard of it and she hopes that none of her friends would use it in this way for anyone - because they know her. There are plenty of words in the English language without needing to use people’s names.

    I certainly would never use it.
  • Just so that everyone knows (and inexplicably, it's not obvious), you're all now in HELL because you couldn't collectively keep your shit together enough for Purgatory.

    DT
    HH
  • Oh, @Doc Tor, you could have at least said they were acting like a load of ka***s
  • I could have. I didn't.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen. What a wonderful Catch-22 the world has created, eh? Complain about the injustice of it all, and people will say "you see? proves we were right".
    Yes, people will misuse terms. You've misused racism, sexism and ageism in this thread. Misuse is not an argument against the use of a term.
    How messed up using Karen might be is in the individual responses from people called Karen. The good or the bad on the receiving end is in that and that alone.
    The two people called Karen that I asked don't care.

    Those who will attack assertive women did so before the name Karen became pejorative and will continue after it ceases to be.

    If your sister had been called Sally, would we be having this discussion?

    It's not misuse, it's evolution. That's what language does. Because it's a living thing.

    Karen may have started out as a piece of verbal shorthand for particular forms of racism within the black community but it's gained some baggage along the way. It's now a piece of sexist, ageist and classist abuse. Yet another female name that's been weaponised against (white) woman of a particular age and class who don't know their place to shame and control.

    When Jess Philips was appointed Shadow Minister for Domestic Violence and Safeguarding, she was described as the Minister for Karens. A few years ago she would have been the Shadow Minister for Sharon and Tracey.

    It should be possible for me to point all that out without being asked if I'm called Karen (no) or get described as one (fuck off). But this thread isn't exactly filling me with hope.

    Yes, frankly it is a shame that yet another term that started in the black community has been appropriated by the white community and twisted. Pointing out the change in meaning isn't intended to silence anyone talking about racism.

    And no, maybe if @orfeo 's sister had been called Sally we wouldn't be having this conversation, but it takes all sorts of experiences to help men realise the level of prejudice against women who are just minding their business and become allies so I'll take it.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Louise wrote: »
    I replied but I think it got buried in cross-posting

    Thanks Louise, I have read.

    At last count... I think I've called out at least 6 Facebook friends. And posted twice on my own feed not to do it and that I will continue to say something if I see friends doing it.

    Of the ones called out, the female one doubled down and offered other women's names we could use for the kind of women she doesn't like. She's now on mute. Also the one of these people I'm most likely to see in real life, which is one reason to prefer mute rather than anything more.

    2 of the male ones apologised, and another male friend has responded to my own posts by saying I've made him realise it's bad and he's stopped. 2 didn't respond but as far as I can see have not repeated the use.

    And one unfriended me and blocked me.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen. What a wonderful Catch-22 the world has created, eh? Complain about the injustice of it all, and people will say "you see? proves we were right".
    Yes, people will misuse terms. You've misused racism, sexism and ageism in this thread. Misuse is not an argument against the use of a term.
    How messed up using Karen might be is in the individual responses from people called Karen. The good or the bad on the receiving end is in that and that alone.
    The two people called Karen that I asked don't care.

    Those who will attack assertive women did so before the name Karen became pejorative and will continue after it ceases to be.

    If your sister had been called Sally, would we be having this discussion?

    It's not misuse, it's evolution. That's what language does. Because it's a living thing.
    To be pedantic, misuse is one reason why words evolve.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    Karen may have started out as a piece of verbal shorthand for particular forms of racism within the black community but it's gained some baggage along the way. It's now a piece of sexist, ageist and classist abuse. Yet another female name that's been weaponised against (white) woman of a particular age and class who don't know their place to shame and control.
    I'm not as worked up about that, because women who speak their minds have always been a target. I'm not particular bothered that one subset of women has a new name. Not when I think of all the names and descriptions of assertive black women, assertive lesbians and assertive women as a whole have got.
    Is the abuse you describe sexist? Yes. Ageist? Well...I see it as differentiation more than sexism. Young women who are assertive are certainly not accepted by the same group abusing middle-aged women and older women are typically ignored.
    Classist? How? The women described as Karens in the reporting I've seen have been the working-class, the middle-class and the rich.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    When Jess Philips was appointed Shadow Minister for Domestic Violence and Safeguarding, she was described as the Minister for Karens. A few years ago she would have been the Shadow Minister for Sharon and Tracey.
    I hadn't heard that one.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    It should be possible for me to point all that out without being asked if I'm called Karen (no) or get described as one (fuck off). But this thread isn't exactly filling me with hope.
    I don't get this. No one on the thread has been advocating for the use of Karen.
    Frankly, if orfeo had not inaccurately used racist, sexist and ageist, I don't think he'd have gotten the feedback he has.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    Yes, frankly it is a shame that yet another term that started in the black community has been appropriated by the white community and twisted. Pointing out the change in meaning isn't intended to silence anyone talking about racism.
    I hadn't seen the change, but I'll accept your experience that it exists.
    I will point out that the OP was not about the change. The OP was about the use at all, including the original intent.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    And no, maybe if @orfeo 's sister had been called Sally we wouldn't be having this conversation, but it takes all sorts of experiences to help men realise the level of prejudice against women who are just minding their business and become allies so I'll take it.
    If a person comes to a general realisation because of a personal incident, then that is good.* But if the reaction is only about that personal incident, then I'm not sure they are an ally.
    orfeo's OP began by mischaracterising the racism and sexism** in the Karen dynamic and I don't remember any posts modifying this.
    What I see is him being protective of his sister, which I get. I'm protective of my family. But I do not see a greater level of awareness, not in the way he's reacted to the thread.


    *It would be better if people didn't need personal incidents to understand, but I'll also take what I can get.
    **Repeating what I posted earlier:
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    There is sexism in this dynamic, but not where you think. A white man confronting a minority is going to be seen as potentially aggressive and will be slightly more accountable for their behaviour. White women are going to be perceived as victims automatically. And that is going to draw a greater threat response against the minority person they are attacking. Especially if that person is a black man.
    It is society's sexism towards women that these women are using as armour.
    Ageism? I'm not sure about that. The bulk of the reports of the behaviour do seem to be from middle-aged women. I'd guess because they are secure enough in the power dynamic to do so.
    Racist? This is bullshit. Complete bullshit. For one, a black woman calling the police is not as likely to be responded to in the first place. And she is likely going to be considered part of the problem.
    White women using their whiteness to call down punishment on black men is a real thing. And, afuckinggain, no one is saying all white women do this or even all middle-aged white women do this.
    Some people will say that only white people can be racist because they have the power. I disagree, racist is racist no matter who uses it. But the power is the thing. A black person being racist towards white people has no substantive effect on their lives, so it is not the same thing in practice as the reverse.
    It is not racist to call out the effect that a white woman calling the police on a black man has. The racism is in that effect.

    Adding: There is a load of privilege in comparing the inconvenience of one's name being associated with an insult to serious instances of racism. One guess on what sort of privilege that is.
  • EliabEliab Shipmate, Purgatory Host
    Louise wrote: »
    Meme just means idea.

    No it doesn't. It means an idea considered as a independent replicator, in current use, especially on social media. Using "Karen" as shorthand for an assertive/entitled women can simultaneously be a good meme, but a bad idea.

    "Karen" as shorthand for aggressive entitlement may be a variant of "Karen" as a shorthand for racist entitlement, but it is out-competing the original. It is therefore the better meme. No one calls Jess Phillips the Shadow Karen Minister because they think she's likely to call the police on a black neighbour - they do it because she's a woman who's capable of, and known for, sharp comment and criticism of opposing political ideas.

    Using "Karen" as shorthand in a context where it will obviously be understood as meaning women whom Jess Phillips is supposed to typify gives support to the idea that Ms Phillips' gender is relevant to criticism of her ideas and rhetoric, and that her opinions can be dismissed as the whining and entitled complaints of a "Karen", and need not be answered on their merits. It's sexist. It's directly dismissive of women in public discourse. It would not be said of a man with the same ideology and approach. Those are reasons enough not to use it, IMO.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Of course, if a woman is assertive, speaks up about her rights and has an opinion, there's a risk she'll be called a Karen. What a wonderful Catch-22 the world has created, eh? Complain about the injustice of it all, and people will say "you see? proves we were right".
    Yes, people will misuse terms. You've misused racism, sexism and ageism in this thread. Misuse is not an argument against the use of a term.
    How messed up using Karen might be is in the individual responses from people called Karen. The good or the bad on the receiving end is in that and that alone.
    The two people called Karen that I asked don't care.

    Those who will attack assertive women did so before the name Karen became pejorative and will continue after it ceases to be.

    If your sister had been called Sally, would we be having this discussion?

    It's not misuse, it's evolution. That's what language does. Because it's a living thing.
    To be pedantic, misuse is one reason why words evolve.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    Karen may have started out as a piece of verbal shorthand for particular forms of racism within the black community but it's gained some baggage along the way. It's now a piece of sexist, ageist and classist abuse. Yet another female name that's been weaponised against (white) woman of a particular age and class who don't know their place to shame and control.
    I'm not as worked up about that, because women who speak their minds have always been a target. I'm not particular bothered that one subset of women has a new name. Not when I think of all the names and descriptions of assertive black women, assertive lesbians and assertive women as a whole have got.
    Is the abuse you describe sexist? Yes. Ageist? Well...I see it as differentiation more than sexism. Young women who are assertive are certainly not accepted by the same group abusing middle-aged women and older women are typically ignored.
    Classist? How? The women described as Karens in the reporting I've seen have been the working-class, the middle-class and the rich.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    When Jess Philips was appointed Shadow Minister for Domestic Violence and Safeguarding, she was described as the Minister for Karens. A few years ago she would have been the Shadow Minister for Sharon and Tracey.
    I hadn't heard that one.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    It should be possible for me to point all that out without being asked if I'm called Karen (no) or get described as one (fuck off). But this thread isn't exactly filling me with hope.
    I don't get this. No one on the thread has been advocating for the use of Karen.
    Frankly, if orfeo had not inaccurately used racist, sexist and ageist, I don't think he'd have gotten the feedback he has.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    Yes, frankly it is a shame that yet another term that started in the black community has been appropriated by the white community and twisted. Pointing out the change in meaning isn't intended to silence anyone talking about racism.
    I hadn't seen the change, but I'll accept your experience that it exists.
    I will point out that the OP was not about the change. The OP was about the use at all, including the original intent.
    Tubbs wrote: »
    And no, maybe if @orfeo 's sister had been called Sally we wouldn't be having this conversation, but it takes all sorts of experiences to help men realise the level of prejudice against women who are just minding their business and become allies so I'll take it.
    If a person comes to a general realisation because of a personal incident, then that is good.* But if the reaction is only about that personal incident, then I'm not sure they are an ally.
    orfeo's OP began by mischaracterising the racism and sexism** in the Karen dynamic and I don't remember any posts modifying this.
    What I see is him being protective of his sister, which I get. I'm protective of my family. But I do not see a greater level of awareness, not in the way he's reacted to the thread.


    *It would be better if people didn't need personal incidents to understand, but I'll also take what I can get.
    **Repeating what I posted earlier:
    lilbuddha wrote: »

    There is sexism in this dynamic, but not where you think. A white man confronting a minority is going to be seen as potentially aggressive and will be slightly more accountable for their behaviour. White women are going to be perceived as victims automatically. And that is going to draw a greater threat response against the minority person they are attacking. Especially if that person is a black man.
    It is society's sexism towards women that these women are using as armour.
    Ageism? I'm not sure about that. The bulk of the reports of the behaviour do seem to be from middle-aged women. I'd guess because they are secure enough in the power dynamic to do so.
    Racist? This is bullshit. Complete bullshit. For one, a black woman calling the police is not as likely to be responded to in the first place. And she is likely going to be considered part of the problem.
    White women using their whiteness to call down punishment on black men is a real thing. And, afuckinggain, no one is saying all white women do this or even all middle-aged white women do this.
    Some people will say that only white people can be racist because they have the power. I disagree, racist is racist no matter who uses it. But the power is the thing. A black person being racist towards white people has no substantive effect on their lives, so it is not the same thing in practice as the reverse.
    It is not racist to call out the effect that a white woman calling the police on a black man has. The racism is in that effect.

    Adding: There is a load of privilege in comparing the inconvenience of one's name being associated with an insult to serious instances of racism. One guess on what sort of privilege that is.

    In the UK most women called Karen will be in their 40’s and are more likely to be working class. So ageist and classist. And, as Karen is a woman’s name, most definitely sexist.

    Particularly when you consider the change of meaning was driven by men after Karen got its sub-reddit for men to exchange horror stories about their (ex)partners. It’s become yet another description to shame and dismiss assertive women.

    Frankly I’m not sure what I’m supposed to take away from your posts. You say that you’re not advocating its use, but then you say you’re not bothered by it because assertive women have always been targeted. Because it’s a differentiation. Whatever that hell that is. Just because it has always been so doesn't make it right.

    @Eliab is spot on in his analysis. (When I next see you, I owe you a pint):
    Using "Karen" as shorthand in a context where it will obviously be understood as meaning women whom Jess Phillips is supposed to typify gives support to the idea that Ms Phillips' gender is relevant to criticism of her ideas and rhetoric, and that her opinions can be dismissed as the whining and entitled complaints of a "Karen", and need not be answered on their merits. It's sexist. It's directly dismissive of women in public discourse. It would not be said of a man with the same ideology and approach. Those are reasons enough not to use it, IMO.

  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Eliab wrote: »
    No one calls Jess Phillips the Shadow Karen Minister because they think she's likely to call the police on a black neighbour - they do it because she's a woman who's capable of, and known for, sharp comment and criticism of opposing political ideas.

    AFAICT the references to Phillips as 'Shadow Karen Minister' came after she took to twitter to complain that her pizza delivery driver was late.
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