Karen

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  • Would it help if we start to refer to such incidents as "peak Gary"? We certainly need to gender balance the available insults.
  • There's already "reply guy".
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Ken or Chad are the male 'karen' names I hear used most. Brad too.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    To my British ears those are very much American names in a way that Karen is not.
  • There are plenty of British Kens, but Chad and Brad are white American men. (Actually, I know a couple of black Bradleys, but neither calls himself "Brad".)
  • Gwai wrote: »
    Ken or Chad are the male 'karen' names I hear used most. Brad too.

    Chad is particularly associated as a pejorative with the incel "movement" as their term for the frat boy stereotype who they think gets all the girls who should be rightfully theirs (or something like that).
  • So Gary is a knobend.

    As a man with a penis, I find this insulting.
  • Oh very well then, Gary is a clithood - better ?
  • Oh very well then, Gary is a clithood - better ?

    You'd have to ask Karen.
  • Gwai wrote: »
    Ken or Chad are the male 'karen' names I hear used most. Brad too.

    Not so popular on the meme front though. Can't think why ... :wink:
  • tbf, 'Chad' is, but it depends on the circles you move in.
  • I just talked to my cousin Karen. Until her mid 20's she was known as Karen Ann and is still called that by family. She said she is sorry she dropped the Ann now that the name Karen has taken on a life of it's own. She said it with a laugh but I think there was a bit of hurt there as well.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    What is it with all this nonsense over the name Karen? I have never heard it occur where I live in Australia and it seems bizarre and discriminatory to me.
  • I call racist women "slag hags". B*tch is overused and sexist, and "Karen" is insulting to all the women named Karen who aren't racist. For racist men, I just call them "racist knuckle dragging dickheads". I know that's kind of too long (no pun intended), I'm working on coming up with something that pops a bit more...hmm... racist pimple?! I am really digging "slag hag", although it doesn't point out the racist white entitlement that I really am angry about. But I refuse to call them a Karen.

    Black rage about the ongoing systemic racism in the United States is completely understandable and I don't think any white person who is "woke" would disagree with that. And it seems as though many white people feel guilty enough about white privilege to not say anything against the trend of black people calling entitled racist white women "Karen". And it's kind of funny, for about a minute and then it's not funny anymore. I don't know what the answer is, how to call out these racist white women without becoming another problem entirely. I just don't think that it's a long term solution for meaningful change.

    I'm a white woman with a certain amount of white privilege. Maybe I don't get a say in all of this. I understand only a very small bit of discrimination because I'm an old, fat, butch lesbian who has been called some rather unsavory things over the years, but not the horrific "N word".

    There's got to be a better way to call out these obnoxious white women without calling them a Karen.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Well said, all of it (save for every word you applied to yourself)
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Well, as @orfeo has pointed out, there are already plenty of descriptive words for these behaviours.

    That being said, the meme of "a karen" being in vogue doesn't bother me overly much. I'm not going to partake (other than ironically with my trusted karens, because that's temporarily funny as fuck), but who knows how long such a whimsical social trend might last even without the frankly titanic power of my personal contributions.
  • PatdysPatdys Shipmate
    I see how you rooked there.
  • The5thMary wrote: »
    I call racist women "slag hags". B*tch is overused and sexist,

    And "slag" isn't sexist?
  • The5thMary wrote: »
    I call racist women "slag hags". B*tch is overused and sexist,

    And "slag" isn't sexist?

    Or "hag" for that matter.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I call racist women "racist women."
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    I call racist women "racist women."
    So do I. There’s enough (and more than enough) egregiously sexist, ageist, insulting crap floating around out there already.

  • I don't like the term either. FYI: I'm guessing that it's based on an older insult for (straight?) women who hang out with gay men. (Same last word, and rhyming first word.)
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    .
  • Ruth wrote: »
    I call racist women "racist women."

    Smart.
  • Yes, calling someone a "slag", a "hag" or "slag hag" is sexist. I apologize. "Racist pinhead" sounds much better, although I suppose "Zippy the Pinhead" might take offense...
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    This programme on BBC R4 yesterday was interesting, on moves to change dictionary choices with regard to words used of women. ("Slut wool" aka "dust bunnies" was adoptable, think.) No mention of Karen, but the above words featured.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000l8pf
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    An attempt in NZ to reward good Karens that seems to have gone awry.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53589897
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    Sexism, ageism, and just a touch of racism (“privileged white women”) once again rear their unpleasant heads.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    '
  • I am ignoring this idiotic trend on the grounds that it will go away if we all refuse to promote it, respond to it, or mention it.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Or should it be this one?
  • Rossweisse wrote: »

    That's the nicest compliment I've had in years. It was a compliment, wasn't it?
    Just heard of a friend's colleague who has legally changed her name from Karen to Kat. I think I'm going to put my head back in the sand.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    It was, @Stercus Tauri!

    I heard today from another friend/former colleague/genuine Karen who was weepy over her name wrongly being made a byword and a hissing. This meme is SUCH sexist/ageist crap!

  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Our local CBC morning show interviewed three women named Karen this morning to get their reactions to the meme. My eldest son, who was listening to it, says one of the woman was bleeped out.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    My former sister-in-law is named Karen. (My late mother-in-law worked briefly on a Norwegian cargo ship, and liked the name.) She is hardly racist or entitled; I should see what she thinks of the meme.) She is a white woman born in the 1950s. I also have a Black aide named Karen. I should ask her for her impressions.

  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Here is the article associated with the interview on our morning show. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/nb-karen-social-media-stereotype-1.5676618
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    My former sister-in-law is named Karen. (My late mother-in-law worked briefly on a Norwegian cargo ship, and liked the name.) She is hardly racist or entitled; I should see what she thinks of the meme.) She is a white woman born in the 1950s. I also have a Black aide named Karen. I should ask her for her impressions.

    Would she feel able to answer that freely, if you are her employer and she knows your view, or would she feel obliged to agree with you ?
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    I would have to ask her very, very carefully. (Technically, I am not her employer; an agency is - and they're short-handed, so she wouldn't have to work with me if I offended. But I still don't want to give offense.)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    As might have been foreseen, "Karen" has now wandered across the ideological divide.

    Those so-called audits are one of my guilty pleasures. The general worldview of the auditors seems to be US-style anti-government libertarianism, though that particular guy does seem to care about things like racism and police brutality. Doesn't stop him from engaging in misogynistic rhetoric against the "Karen", eg. "Imagine waking up to that every morning!!" And I'm pretty sure some of the more right-wing of them have picked up the term as well

    Overall, while a lot of the auditors kinda stoop to conquer(eg. some of them seem obsessed with bothering postal workers), quite a few of them do go after more impressive targets, eg. the military, FBI, defense contractors. And on one occassion, an auditor intervened when someone in a position of authority was neglecting some serious safety rules.

  • This is apt, funny, and really, really good:

    "Karen Asks Priest Why He Tolerates ‘Prostitutes’ Following Him, Gets Shut Down " (Bored Panda).

    This is for real. And ohhhh, the comments!
    :notworthy:
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    This is apt, funny, and really, really good:

    "Karen Asks Priest Why He Tolerates ‘Prostitutes’ Following Him, Gets Shut Down " (Bored Panda).

    This is for real. And ohhhh, the comments!
    :notworthy:

    Hey I have some experience with this, although I don't claim to be in this guy's league. I'd rather be condemned for loving people Jesus hates than for hating people Jesus loves. (Personally of course I don't think he hates anyone. Which is a problem for some people who claim to follow him.)
  • Someone once said "you've got a problem if your God hates all the same people you do".
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    I wonder what kind of positive results the Tweeter expected the priest to get by directing a sex worker to scripture rather than showing them respect. Jesus treated very few people with disrespect, usually just haughty Pharisees, scammers in the Temple, and his disciples when they were acting like numskulls.

    I remember hearing a pastor speak about being out of town for a conference and going with colleagues to a late night diner. There were some "working" ladies taking a break for coffee and one wistfully mentioned that the next day was her birthday. The preacher was there in town one more day, so on the off chance she would be there, he bought a cake and brought it to the diner the next night. She was there, and he brought out the cake. She was overcome. She said that she had never had a birthday cake in her life! He wished her a happy birthday, and they all shared cake. He didn't preach; he showed love. As St. Francis reputedly said: "Preach the Gospel always. Use words when you need to." (Probably apocryphal)

    More likely Francis's words: "It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching."
  • Wonderful re cake!
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Someone once said "you've got a problem if your God hates all the same people you do".

    I remember it as, you know you invented your god if he hates all the same people you do. And I want to say it was Anne Lamott.
  • Yeah, I wasn't quite sure of the quote. And it does sound like Anne Lamott.
    :)
  • Wiki quotes says it's Lamott:
    You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.

    I don't think Jesus hates anyone, but I wouldn't say that some of his followers were prostitutes: ex-prostitutes yes, just like ex-thieves and even ex- murderers, but I doubt if the Jesus who preached against fornication or even lust, would have had sex-workers plying their trade among the disciples. Jesus was kind and respectful to the woman who had "had five husbands" but he also told her to go and sin no more.

    The minister sounds like a nice man, approaching sex workers with love, buying them cakes, etc, but if he pretends that Jesus thought their lifestyle was fine then he himself is following the current mood of society and is in danger of creating God in his own image.

    I agree we should never judge the person as anything other than a worthy child of God, but we're letting them down if we never mention the things Jesus taught us for our own good. I've never known a happy prostitute, they were quite often sexually abused as children and grew up thinking their bodies were all they had to offer, all they were worth. Helping them out of that life isn't judging, it's setting them free.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    Wiki quotes says it's Lamott:
    You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.

    I don't think Jesus hates anyone, but I wouldn't say that some of his followers were prostitutes: ex-prostitutes yes, just like ex-thieves and even ex- murderers, but I doubt if the Jesus who preached against fornication or even lust, would have had sex-workers plying their trade among the disciples. Jesus was kind and respectful to the woman who had "had five husbands" but he also told her to go and sin no more.

    The minister sounds like a nice man, approaching sex workers with love, buying them cakes, etc, but if he pretends that Jesus thought their lifestyle was fine then he himself is following the current mood of society and is in danger of creating God in his own image.

    I agree we should never judge the person as anything other than a worthy child of God, but we're letting them down if we never mention the things Jesus taught us for our own good. I've never known a happy prostitute, they were quite often sexually abused as children and grew up thinking their bodies were all they had to offer, all they were worth. Helping them out of that life isn't judging, it's setting them free.

    Twilight, you're getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. The minister in question is not the pastor of the sex workers who follow him. He is simply the Twitter account holder who writes things that interest him. That does not give him automatic pastoral authority and/or responsibility over everyone who reads him. It is not for him to arrogate to himself powers and authorities God (and the people concerned!) have not given him. Even Jesus did not do so, with the woman at the well (whom he did NOT tell to "go and sin no more," that was the woman taken in adultery you're remembering).

    Speaking as a missionary, the man has the exact right approach to people whose lives are screwed up (and who among us is not that?). You start by listening, caring, developing a relationship, meeting needs. You love those people. As they come closer to you, they may very well ask your opinions, feelings, advice on messy areas of their lives--and what's more, they'll listen, because you've proved you care for them, and are not just running around handing out judgement (which they already know, thanks).
    This is why Jesus invited himself over to Zacchaeus' house, instead of shouting judgement at him from the tree; why he had that long, long conversation with the woman at the well, that ended in him going to stay in her village for days, building relationships, caring and faith with the whole lot of them; and why he drew out the whole encounter with the woman taken in adultery instead of just rendering summary judgement in ANY direction. He first of all slowed down the cycle of events that was leading mighty quick to a stoning, then provoked second thoughts through his question about being without sin, and essentially stood or stooped by her (writing) the whole time--which gave her the protection of his body. He then got rid of the embarrassing crowd, and only THEN did he deal (quite gently) with her sin. "Go and sin no more" sounds hugely different when it's coming from the man who saved your life.
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