Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

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Comments

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    Yes, just like the potus Johnson has a way of pulling the wool over the electorate’s eyes, sadly. I suppose it could be called an ‘achievement’ of sorts.

    I can see nothing of worth that either has ever done. Maybe those bikes 🤔 but I can name many, many other cities which are actually bike friendly, unlike London. So the bike thing was a PR coup (linking his name to them) but otherwise it was meagre.

  • Boogie wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    Yes, just like the potus Johnson has a way of pulling the wool over the electorate’s eyes, sadly. I suppose it could be called an ‘achievement’ of sorts.

    I can see nothing of worth that either has ever done. Maybe those bikes 🤔 but I can name many, many other cities which are actually bike friendly, unlike London. So the bike thing was a PR coup (linking his name to them) but otherwise it was meagre.

    Those bikes were conceived and developed as a scheme by Ken Livingstone. They just happened to come into use at the beginning of Johnson's mayoralty. So that's one achievement less. Otherwise, there is purely the pandering.
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Boogie wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    Yes, just like the potus Johnson has a way of pulling the wool over the electorate’s eyes, sadly. I suppose it could be called an ‘achievement’ of sorts.

    I can see nothing of worth that either has ever done. Maybe those bikes 🤔 but I can name many, many other cities which are actually bike friendly, unlike London. So the bike thing was a PR coup (linking his name to them) but otherwise it was meagre.

    It's worth noting that the so-called Boris Bikes was actually an initiative of his predecessor, Johnson just happened to be in office when the scheme started...

    AFZ

    Edit: X-posted with @ThunderBunk
  • goperryrevsgoperryrevs Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    Do you think he would have achieved these without the boatload of privilege and status that he was born with, the Etonian connections, or the ruthlessness that comes from a narcissistic personality, a manipulative nature and a disregard for others?

    Yes, he's achieved those positions, well done him - but not in a way that anyone with a moral compass should be impressed by.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    If you reach a position you're not really up to, that makes it only a subjective achievement 'I've achieved my ambition'. Unless it raises the quality of other peoples' lives - and that doesn't include the subjective success of those who rise by hanging onto your coat-tails - it doesn't objectively have any value at all.

    So @Telford, I don't agree with you.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Yes, that sounds more like him, but certainly no higher than middle management
  • Enoch wrote: »
    If you reach a position you're not really up to, that makes it only a subjective achievement 'I've achieved my ambition'. Unless it raises the quality of other peoples' lives - and that doesn't include the subjective success of those who rise by hanging onto your coat-tails - it doesn't objectively have any value at all.

    So @Telford, I don't agree with you.

    Quite. By the same yardstick we should admire the achievements of Pol Pot, who became Prime Minister of Cambodia/Kampuchea. After all, he worked jolly hard to get the job.
    :flushed:

  • Enoch wrote: »
    If you reach a position you're not really up to, that makes it only a subjective achievement 'I've achieved my ambition'. Unless it raises the quality of other peoples' lives - and that doesn't include the subjective success of those who rise by hanging onto your coat-tails - it doesn't objectively have any value at all.

    So @Telford, I don't agree with you.

    Quite. By the same yardstick we should admire the achievements of Pol Pot, who became Prime Minister of Cambodia/Kampuchea. After all, he worked jolly hard to get the job.
    :flushed:

    Don't forget that grafter Herbert Hoover, such an achievement to be president of the US.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    I suppose the same could be said of many of the talented and hard-working characters, who strove mightily against tremendous odds (and over lots of dead bodies) in order to become King of their particular dung-heap.

    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings!
    Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair...


    Why, young Mr Shelley could have been writing about our own Great Leader!
  • ETA:

    Even more apposite are the final lines of a similar poem by Horace Smith, published a little later:

    ...some Hunter may express
    Wonder like ours, when thro' the wilderness
    Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chase,
    He meets some fragment huge, and stops to guess
    What powerful but unrecorded race
    Once dwelt in that annihilated place.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Matthew Parris has done a wonderful demolition job in today's London Times on BJ's Brexit promises. He concludes that the UK has no choice but to become an EU satellite. Let's hope he's right, but don't underestimate the Brexiteers' death-wish.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Matthew Parris has done a wonderful demolition job in today's London Times on BJ's Brexit promises. He concludes that the UK has no choice but to become an EU satellite. Let's hope he's right, but don't underestimate the Brexiteers' death-wish.

    I do think the most likely outcome is Johnson caving in to every EU condition for a trade deal and then loudly proclaiming victory, just as he did over the withdrawal agreement.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Can you provide a convenient linky, please?
    Thx.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    I do think the most likely outcome is Johnson caving in to every EU condition for a trade deal and then loudly proclaiming victory, just as he did over the withdrawal agreement.
    I don't know, Europe is near but as we've seen Russia has a unexplored relationship with members of at least one of our parties, and America and China have assets and motives of their own.
    I'm not sure who will win which bids. America will allow us to have cheap standards but enforce cheap standards (no food labels), Europe will allow us to have safe standards but enforce them (now with no say). They can't both win.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Now who, exactly, did young Mr Shelley have in mind?

    I do regret that in my A level English we studied Wordsworth and Keats. I'd much rather know about Shelley and Byron. I'd have felt much more confident in explaining what Shelley meant in his verse than what Keats meant. Autumn's nice, and so is this urn. Depression is depressing. (I like Keats' verse - I just don't want to analyse it.) And Wordsworth lost his fervour for revolution as he aged - nearest we got to political thought.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    AIR when Al Fayed owned Harrods, he had his own sculpted face incorporated in the Egyptian escalator with the line about Look on my works, ye mighty. Obviously hadn't read the rest of the poem.

    Ozymandias was the Greek name for Ramesses II.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    jay_emm wrote: »
    I do think the most likely outcome is Johnson caving in to every EU condition for a trade deal and then loudly proclaiming victory, just as he did over the withdrawal agreement.
    I don't know, Europe is near but as we've seen Russia has a unexplored relationship with members of at least one of our parties, and America and China have assets and motives of their own.
    I'm not sure who will win which bids. America will allow us to have cheap standards but enforce cheap standards (no food labels), Europe will allow us to have safe standards but enforce them (now with no say). They can't both win.

    No food labels?
  • Dave W wrote: »
    jay_emm wrote: »
    I do think the most likely outcome is Johnson caving in to every EU condition for a trade deal and then loudly proclaiming victory, just as he did over the withdrawal agreement.
    I don't know, Europe is near but as we've seen Russia has a unexplored relationship with members of at least one of our parties, and America and China have assets and motives of their own.
    I'm not sure who will win which bids. America will allow us to have cheap standards but enforce cheap standards (no food labels), Europe will allow us to have safe standards but enforce them (now with no say). They can't both win.

    No food labels?

    As in not telling people that their chicken has been washed in chlorine to disguise poor hygiene practices / their beef was pumped full of growth hormones / their peanut butter is allowed to contain more rat faeces / whatever else results in the US having far worse animal welfare and food poisoning than the UK.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    Yes, just like the potus Johnson has a way of pulling the wool over the electorate’s eyes, sadly. I suppose it could be called an ‘achievement’ of sorts.
    An 80 seat majority in the general election. Won twice in London which is a Labour stronghold.
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    Do you think he would have achieved these without the boatload of privilege and status that he was born with, the Etonian connections, or the ruthlessness that comes from a narcissistic personality, a manipulative nature and a disregard for others?

    Yes, he's achieved those positions, well done him - but not in a way that anyone with a moral compass should be impressed by.

    Plenty of other wealthy politicians went to Eton.
    Enoch wrote: »
    If you reach a position you're not really up to, that makes it only a subjective achievement 'I've achieved my ambition'. Unless it raises the quality of other peoples' lives - and that doesn't include the subjective success of those who rise by hanging onto your coat-tails - it doesn't objectively have any value at all.

    So @Telford, I don't agree with you.
    I wouldn't expect you to but that doesn't mean that I am wrong.
  • MrMandidMrMandid Castaway
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Both of you totally miss the point. His achievements were to actually obtain the positions. Very few people have.

    Usually when we talk about the achievements of a particular politician, we mean what he has accomplished with the job. Getting the job in the first place is usually taken as read.

    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    Absolutely. He got the job as PM and turned a minority into a stonking majority, although I think that Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott should take some credit for that too. Is he so far a failure? Maybe, maybe not but in comparison to the opposition of 2019 absolutely not. It is highly amusing to read the comments of leftists here complaining about Boris' failings when in reality they should look a bit closer at the party they support.
    Far better too to judge and assess the successes or failings of any PM at the end not beginning of their tenures, but there is a tendency here on this forum to be so anti-conservative that any real objective analysis is utterly pointless.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    But if you're comparing Mayors of London, Members of Parliament, or Prime Ministers, then they've all successfuly been elected. Their elections cancel out - they're not a useful point of comparison.

    I think it's quite hard at the moment to have a sensible discussion about how well (or otherwise) Johnson has managed Brexit, because the discussions get strongly contaminated by people's idea of what good and bad outcomes re Brexit are.

    I think we can, however, pass judgement on the government's handling of the Covid-19 crisis. It's been bad. Even without the ridiculous spectacle of government advisers going for long drives with their children mid-lockdown "in order to test their eyesight", the government's response has been shambolic and half-baked. Sure - BJ has done better than Trump, but I rather think that Mr Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf is more credible than Mr Trump. If you compare the UK government's response to that of France, or Germany, it looks quite embarrassing.



  • MrMandidMrMandid Castaway
    Telford wrote: »
    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    But if you're comparing Mayors of London, Members of Parliament, or Prime Ministers, then they've all successfuly been elected. Their elections cancel out - they're not a useful point of comparison.

    I think it's quite hard at the moment to have a sensible discussion about how well (or otherwise) Johnson has managed Brexit, because the discussions get strongly contaminated by people's idea of what good and bad outcomes re Brexit are.

    I think we can, however, pass judgement on the government's handling of the Covid-19 crisis. It's been bad. Even without the ridiculous spectacle of government advisers going for long drives with their children mid-lockdown "in order to test their eyesight", the government's response has been shambolic and half-baked. Sure - BJ has done better than Trump, but I rather think that Mr Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf is more credible than Mr Trump. If you compare the UK government's response to that of France, or Germany, it looks quite embarrassing.



    An assessment of how well or not Johnson, the government he leads and his advisers have preformed is probably best left until after the fact. Hopefully any assessments of the UK's response to covid-19 will also look at the role and behaviour of the general public, the media, the opposition and various other institutions and organisations.
    Passing judgement now and declaring it to be "bad" is fairly typical of the standard anti-conservative brigade, unhelpful and really tends to demonstrate what a bunch of whinging blame others tossers they are.
  • MrMandid wrote: »
    It is highly amusing to read the comments of leftists here complaining about Boris' failings when in reality they should look a bit closer at the party they support.
    I don’t support any particular party, and I was disappointed with all of the main parties at the last election.

    My problems with Mr Johnson are twofold:

    The first is his lack of moral character, which has been apparent for many years.

    The second is his ineptitude in office, which has also been apparent for many years (remember how horrendous he was as Foreign Secretary?).

    That we now have him leading the country in such a time of crisis is terrible, he simply does not have any competence, and has proved it from the very start when he played down the severity of the virus and carried on shaking hands with people (nearly at the cost of his own life).

    We’ve all met people like him - charming and persuasive. They’re the people who are great at job interviews, but when they get the job, it’s a car crash because they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. All their co-workers who actually know what they’re doing can see it.

    As others have said, yes it’s an achievement to get the job in the first place - an achievement that shows one is good at selling themselves and persuading people that they have the skills and the answers. But actually having those skills is a different thing. Mr Johnson is exactly like many other people I’ve met in my professional career; they’re called bullshitters. They persuade some people that they know what they’re doing; but anyone who actually does have experience and insight can immediately see right through them.
  • MrMandidMrMandid Castaway
    MrMandid wrote: »
    It is highly amusing to read the comments of leftists here complaining about Boris' failings when in reality they should look a bit closer at the party they support.
    I don’t support any particular party, and I was disappointed with all of the main parties at the last election.

    My problems with Mr Johnson are twofold:

    The first is his lack of moral character, which has been apparent for many years.

    The second is his ineptitude in office, which has also been apparent for many years (remember how horrendous he was as Foreign Secretary?).

    That we now have him leading the country in such a time of crisis is terrible, he simply does not have any competence, and has proved it from the very start when he played down the severity of the virus and carried on shaking hands with people (nearly at the cost of his own life).

    We’ve all met people like him - charming and persuasive. They’re the people who are great at job interviews, but when they get the job, it’s a car crash because they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. All their co-workers who actually know what they’re doing can see it.

    As others have said, yes it’s an achievement to get the job in the first place - an achievement that shows one is good at selling themselves and persuading people that they have the skills and the answers. But actually having those skills is a different thing. Mr Johnson is exactly like many other people I’ve met in my professional career; they’re called bullshitters. They persuade some people that they know what they’re doing; but anyone who actually does have experience and insight can immediately see right through them.

    Making an assessment of someones capability after such a short time in a job is also deeply problematic. Doing so to advance a political agenda doubly so.
  • "Maybe this time he won't fuck up!"
  • MrMandidMrMandid Castaway
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    "Maybe this time he won't fuck up!"

    He's doing better than the likes of of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott. This we can be certain of.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    MrMandid wrote: »
    MrMandid wrote: »
    It is highly amusing to read the comments of leftists here complaining about Boris' failings when in reality they should look a bit closer at the party they support.
    I don’t support any particular party, and I was disappointed with all of the main parties at the last election.

    My problems with Mr Johnson are twofold:

    The first is his lack of moral character, which has been apparent for many years.

    The second is his ineptitude in office, which has also been apparent for many years (remember how horrendous he was as Foreign Secretary?).

    That we now have him leading the country in such a time of crisis is terrible, he simply does not have any competence, and has proved it from the very start when he played down the severity of the virus and carried on shaking hands with people (nearly at the cost of his own life).

    We’ve all met people like him - charming and persuasive. They’re the people who are great at job interviews, but when they get the job, it’s a car crash because they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. All their co-workers who actually know what they’re doing can see it.

    As others have said, yes it’s an achievement to get the job in the first place - an achievement that shows one is good at selling themselves and persuading people that they have the skills and the answers. But actually having those skills is a different thing. Mr Johnson is exactly like many other people I’ve met in my professional career; they’re called bullshitters. They persuade some people that they know what they’re doing; but anyone who actually does have experience and insight can immediately see right through them.

    Making an assessment of someones capability after such a short time in a job is also deeply problematic. Doing so to advance a political agenda doubly so.

    Given that most people are given only a few months on probation in their job, and have to prove their capability during that time, that statement somewhat smacks of special pleading just because it's Boris.
  • MrMandidMrMandid Castaway
    Pendragon wrote: »
    MrMandid wrote: »
    MrMandid wrote: »
    It is highly amusing to read the comments of leftists here complaining about Boris' failings when in reality they should look a bit closer at the party they support.
    I don’t support any particular party, and I was disappointed with all of the main parties at the last election.

    My problems with Mr Johnson are twofold:

    The first is his lack of moral character, which has been apparent for many years.

    The second is his ineptitude in office, which has also been apparent for many years (remember how horrendous he was as Foreign Secretary?).

    That we now have him leading the country in such a time of crisis is terrible, he simply does not have any competence, and has proved it from the very start when he played down the severity of the virus and carried on shaking hands with people (nearly at the cost of his own life).

    We’ve all met people like him - charming and persuasive. They’re the people who are great at job interviews, but when they get the job, it’s a car crash because they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. All their co-workers who actually know what they’re doing can see it.

    As others have said, yes it’s an achievement to get the job in the first place - an achievement that shows one is good at selling themselves and persuading people that they have the skills and the answers. But actually having those skills is a different thing. Mr Johnson is exactly like many other people I’ve met in my professional career; they’re called bullshitters. They persuade some people that they know what they’re doing; but anyone who actually does have experience and insight can immediately see right through them.

    Making an assessment of someones capability after such a short time in a job is also deeply problematic. Doing so to advance a political agenda doubly so.

    Given that most people are given only a few months on probation in their job, and have to prove their capability during that time, that statement somewhat smacks of special pleading just because it's Boris.

    Not at all. Politicians and political parties are given a 5 year reign and then they are either rejected or re-elected. No special pleading at all. I just think that 8 months into that 5 years is too quick to pass judgement.
  • MrMandid wrote: »
    Politicians and political parties are given a 5 year reign and then they are either rejected or re-elected. No special pleading at all. I just think that 8 months into that 5 years is too quick to pass judgement.
    It's perfectly reasonable to make judgements on how well someone is doing in political office, even if there's years before we're likely to have a chance to vote for our MPs again. Of course, we'll be at the voting booths before then; there'll be local elections, those in devolved areas will get to vote for our representatives to those governments. If the Conservatives get effectively wiped out in council elections, would you consider that a success for Mr Johnson?
  • MrMandidMrMandid Castaway
    MrMandid wrote: »
    Politicians and political parties are given a 5 year reign and then they are either rejected or re-elected. No special pleading at all. I just think that 8 months into that 5 years is too quick to pass judgement.
    It's perfectly reasonable to make judgements on how well someone is doing in political office, even if there's years before we're likely to have a chance to vote for our MPs again. Of course, we'll be at the voting booths before then; there'll be local elections, those in devolved areas will get to vote for our representatives to those governments. If the Conservatives get effectively wiped out in council elections, would you consider that a success for Mr Johnson?

    Local elections are often times when voters get to voice their discontent and it can lead to horrendous councils continuing to do their shit. As we have seen here in Reading with a Labour council continuing to mess up for years on end. And it is often very difficult to shift them. But elections are where we are at. So, no, if the local elections lead to a wipe out of Conservatism I don't consider it a "failure". If in 2024 we see Labour/the nationalists in Scotland forming a govt then certainly I'd consider it a failure of the part of Boris and his govt. Absolutely. Let's hope that doesnt happen, keeping the likes of Sturgeon away from power in Westminster and people like yourself from positions of influence is very important. But hey, it may happen and we can then see how you cope.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    As I recall when Tory... Sorry Tony Blair was PM. Lots of Conservatives were telling us how awful he was from practically day one, despite New Labour being closer to Conservatives than the Labour left. Social media was not a reality then as it is now. So there were fewer outlets but he was harangued by Conservatives.
  • Well, Nicola will be an MSP and so won't be standing for election for the UK Parliament. So, you don't have to worry about that very competent politician showing up your favourite flim-flam artist for the incompetent that he is ... though, there'll be more than enough other MPs able to show him up.

    Just for you, I may well put myself forward as our candidate again.
  • MrMandidMrMandid Castaway
    Well, Nicola will be an MSP and so won't be standing for election for the UK Parliament. So, you don't have to worry about that very competent politician showing up your favourite flim-flam artist for the incompetent that he is ... though, there'll be more than enough other MPs able to show him up.

    Just for you, I may well put myself forward as our candidate again.

    Go for it! If you are successful then fair play. Let's see how you do.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    MrMandid wrote: »
    Politicians and political parties are given a 5 year reign and then they are either rejected or re-elected. No special pleading at all. I just think that 8 months into that 5 years is too quick to pass judgement.
    It's perfectly reasonable to make judgements on how well someone is doing in political office, even if there's years before we're likely to have a chance to vote for our MPs again. Of course, we'll be at the voting booths before then; there'll be local elections, those in devolved areas will get to vote for our representatives to those governments. If the Conservatives get effectively wiped out in council elections, would you consider that a success for Mr Johnson?

    I am confident that the Conservatives will lose a few council seats but will certainly not be wiped out.
    Telford wrote: »
    Well we shouldn't take it as read. We should recognise their achievements in getting the jobs.

    But if you're comparing Mayors of London, Members of Parliament, or Prime Ministers, then they've all successfuly been elected. Their elections cancel out - they're not a useful point of comparison.

    I think it's quite hard at the moment to have a sensible discussion about how well (or otherwise) Johnson has managed Brexit, because the discussions get strongly contaminated by people's idea of what good and bad outcomes re Brexit are.

    I think we can, however, pass judgement on the government's handling of the Covid-19 crisis. It's been bad. Even without the ridiculous spectacle of government advisers going for long drives with their children mid-lockdown "in order to test their eyesight", the government's response has been shambolic and half-baked. Sure - BJ has done better than Trump, but I rather think that Mr Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf is more credible than Mr Trump. If you compare the UK government's response to that of France, or Germany, it looks quite embarrassing.


    If Johnson was a pupil and I was his teacher, my end of term report would say, " Could have done better"
  • MrMandid wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    "Maybe this time he won't fuck up!"

    He's doing better than the likes of of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott. This we can be certain of.

    Mate, on the one hand you’re saying we can’t judge Johnson yet as he’s only had a few months; on the other you’re certain that other people would have done a worse job when they’ve had zero months.

    There’s a phrase for that: double standards.
  • MrMandid wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    "Maybe this time he won't fuck up!"

    He's doing better than the likes of of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott. This we can be certain of.

    And yet you think it's those you are arguing with who are blinded by bias... :wink:
  • MrMandid wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    "Maybe this time he won't fuck up!"

    He's doing better than the likes of of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott. This we can be certain of.

    Mate, on the one hand you’re saying we can’t judge Johnson yet as he’s only had a few months; on the other you’re certain that other people would have done a worse job when they’ve had zero months.

    There’s a phrase for that: double standards.

    Or a word: bullshit.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    An accurate word, but if you'd prefer one syllable, crap is about right.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate

    I don’t support any particular party, and I was disappointed with all of the main parties at the last election.

    My problems with Mr Johnson are twofold:

    The first is his lack of moral character, which has been apparent for many years.

    The second is his ineptitude in office, which has also been apparent for many years (remember how horrendous he was as Foreign Secretary?).

    That we now have him leading the country in such a time of crisis is terrible, he simply does not have any competence, and has proved it from the very start when he played down the severity of the virus and carried on shaking hands with people (nearly at the cost of his own life).

    We’ve all met people like him - charming and persuasive. They’re the people who are great at job interviews, but when they get the job, it’s a car crash because they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. All their co-workers who actually know what they’re doing can see it.

    As others have said, yes it’s an achievement to get the job in the first place - an achievement that shows one is good at selling themselves and persuading people that they have the skills and the answers. But actually having those skills is a different thing. Mr Johnson is exactly like many other people I’ve met in my professional career; they’re called bullshitters. They persuade some people that they know what they’re doing; but anyone who actually does have experience and insight can immediately see right through them.
    A very fair summary - fairer than he deserves.

    And as for those who are criticising you for assessing him too early in his trajectory, he's got a long track record, as a journalist, as a politician, as London Mayor, as in the manner of his choice to be a Brexit leader, as Foreign Secretary and - and I think this matters - in the callous conduct of his private life. In the light of all that, his performance as Prime Minister so far merely demonstrates that the assessment of his calibre and suitability that many of us had already made, is sound and alas all too visible.

    What an unhappy country this is.


  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Well said goperryrevs.

    I like Enoch's comment: and I think this matters - in the callous conduct of his private life.. Normally I'd steer clear of that sort of thing, but there are times - and this is one of them* - to keep that in the forefront of our minds. This is a man who has fathered 5 children by 3 different women. What would he and his colleagues about a woman in the reverse situation? She'd be hammered from pillar to post, and denigrated unmercifully. It's perfectly valid to set this out clearly and frequently.

    *Another is the perjury of Jim Cairns and Junie Morosi.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Unlike Roy Rogers's four legged friend, he's the opposite. He'll always let you down.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Sorry, I can't provide a link to Matthew Parris's Times article as it's behind a pay wall.His thesis is that every one of the Brexit promises - thatthe EU would cace in tothe UK's demands, that the US would give us a speedy trade deal onacceptable terms, that we would snap up better deals than the EU around thee world - has proved to be a chimera. He thinks that we will have to settle for 'voluntarily' shadowing the EU's regulatory regime in exchange for free access. And, presumably, some sort of bargain over fishing rights - how will that go down in Scotland and the South-West, I wonder?
  • @Eirenist , thank you, anyway.

    I agree entirely with your precis of Parris' thesis.

  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    MrMandid wrote: »
    UK Prime Minister and Mayor of London twice.
    So he blocked useful and competent people (Labour or Tory) from getting the Mayor of London job twice. Even Zak Goldsmith, anti-Muslim and entitled posh bloke though he is, would probably not have left the capital with the garden bridge that isn't and the Emirates Airline.
    So really Mayor of London twice is a negative achievement from any point of view other than Johnson's ambition.

    Likewise, say what you like about Theresa May and I'm happy to say a lot, she could hardly have handled the pandemic worse than Johnson. At the very least I can't see her catching the thing by shaking the hands of people who had it. So again, negative achievement on the part of Johnson.

    One of the things about saying Johnson saved Britain from Corbyn: if Corbyn was so obviously terrible how is it that only Johnson could save us? Surely if Corbyn would have been quite that bad any Conservative politician worth their salt could have seen him off? So either it's not an achievement because anyone could have done it, or it's not an achievement because actually Corbyn would not have been so bad. Of course it could be that there were no serious Conservative leadership contenders worth their salt.

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    MrMandid wrote: »
    UK Prime Minister and Mayor of London twice.
    So he blocked useful and competent people (Labour or Tory) from getting the Mayor of London job twice. Even Zak Goldsmith, anti-Muslim and entitled posh bloke though he is, would probably not have left the capital with the garden bridge that isn't and the Emirates Airline.
    So really Mayor of London twice is a negative achievement from any point of view other than Johnson's ambition.

    Likewise, say what you like about Theresa May and I'm happy to say a lot, she could hardly have handled the pandemic worse than Johnson. At the very least I can't see her catching the thing by shaking the hands of people who had it. So again, negative achievement on the part of Johnson.

    One of the things about saying Johnson saved Britain from Corbyn: if Corbyn was so obviously terrible how is it that only Johnson could save us? Surely if Corbyn would have been quite that bad any Conservative politician worth their salt could have seen him off? So either it's not an achievement because anyone could have done it, or it's not an achievement because actually Corbyn would not have been so bad. Of course it could be that there were no serious Conservative leadership contenders worth their salt.

    You were doing well till you said " because actually Corbyn would not have been so bad."
  • Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    MrMandid wrote: »
    UK Prime Minister and Mayor of London twice.
    So he blocked useful and competent people (Labour or Tory) from getting the Mayor of London job twice. Even Zak Goldsmith, anti-Muslim and entitled posh bloke though he is, would probably not have left the capital with the garden bridge that isn't and the Emirates Airline.
    So really Mayor of London twice is a negative achievement from any point of view other than Johnson's ambition.

    Likewise, say what you like about Theresa May and I'm happy to say a lot, she could hardly have handled the pandemic worse than Johnson. At the very least I can't see her catching the thing by shaking the hands of people who had it. So again, negative achievement on the part of Johnson.

    One of the things about saying Johnson saved Britain from Corbyn: if Corbyn was so obviously terrible how is it that only Johnson could save us? Surely if Corbyn would have been quite that bad any Conservative politician worth their salt could have seen him off? So either it's not an achievement because anyone could have done it, or it's not an achievement because actually Corbyn would not have been so bad. Of course it could be that there were no serious Conservative leadership contenders worth their salt.

    You were doing well till you said " because actually Corbyn would not have been so bad."

    Given that the impetus to do something 'different' and 'bold' on the pandemic have come from with the governments own camp it is a reasonable inference that any other government which had simply followed the advice from civil servants and scientific advisors would have done better.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Well said goperryrevs.

    I like Enoch's comment: and I think this matters - in the callous conduct of his private life.. Normally I'd steer clear of that sort of thing, but there are times - and this is one of them* - to keep that in the forefront of our minds. This is a man who has fathered 5 children by 3 different women.

    6 children from 3 different women, with at least a possible 7th from a fourth.
  • How is that relevant? Having 3 wives/girl-friends is normal today.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    For me, the fact of more than one adulterous affair says something about his character. It may only be a straw in the wind, but there are several others blowing in the same direction.
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