Sheffield Cathedral Choir: Moving forward or a desecration?

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  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    The Dean made a Choir Address yesterday.

    The Church Commissioners fund only a Dean and two residentiary canons at most cathedrals. Additional canons (lay or clerical) need to be unpaid locally funded and Sheffield as a diocese has been notoriously cash-strapped for several years now.

    According to Wikipedia there are vacancies for a Precentor and two canons.

    If there is no precentor and it is the job of the precentor to run the liturgy, who is making these decisions?
  • yohan300yohan300 Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    The Dean made a Choir Address yesterday.

    The Church Commissioners fund only a Dean and two residentiary canons at most cathedrals. Additional canons (lay or clerical) need to be unpaid locally funded and Sheffield as a diocese has been notoriously cash-strapped for several years now.

    According to Wikipedia there are vacancies for a Precentor and two canons.

    If there is no precentor and it is the job of the precentor to run the liturgy, who is making these decisions?

    Apparently the Dean has been performing some of the duties of the Precentor.

    They have said they intend to appoint a Precentor in August. I guess dismissing the choir beforehand will mean the new appointee won't have to worry about those pesky music lists.
  • Fawkes CatFawkes Cat Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    The core of the Chapter's position seems to be
    it has become clear to Chapter that to have any real chance of renewing our choral life so fundamentally, an incremental approach is unlikely to be successful. We came to the view that it would be best to stop, reflect, recruit and plan, and then systematically build our choral worship in a new way.

    I've no experience of cathedral choirs, but this doesn't tie in with my experience anywhere else (particularly in church bell towers, which involve far fewer people, but are a group of volunteers working within the church). Unless there are potential choristers queuing out of the door (and the references to struggling to have a full choir don't suggest that to be the case) then surely it's better to try to hang on to the people you already have and add to them, rather than trying to recruit a whole new team.

    Unless, of course, the core argument is in fact this:
    You will have heard in the press concerns about bullying. I cannot, for legal reasons, comment on these, except to reassure you that any complaints which have been raised are taken very seriously by Chapter, and will be dealt with through our robust official procedures. Chapter also thinks that this is the moment to review our provision for safeguarding in the Music Department. Therefore, in early July, Chapter commissioned a lessons-learned review of safeguarding in the Music Department during the past five years. Chapter has committed to publishing the executive summary of the review report when it is finished during the autumn.

    If in fact the driver is that the whole culture needs clearing out, and starting again has become the only option, then that's a tough position that Chapter might have to take. But the way the Dean's statement is structured, it suggests that dealing with bullying and safeguarding is a side issue.

    Either Sheffield Cathedral's management are being inept at management by closing down when it would be better to build on what they have got, or they are being dishonest with the wider world (and maybe themselves) by hiding necessary house-cleaning behind managerialism. Neither of these conclusions make a pretty sight.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    That's as may be, but the concept of closing down some activity or other - or maybe more than one - in order to regroup/reorganise is not in itself a bad thing IMHO. The hiatus caused by Covid-19, and the ban on singing in church, may be an opportunity to do this.

    Nothing to do with choirs, but our next-door parish, some years ago (on the arrival of a new Vicar), did indeed close down a number of activities and groups which had become difficult (for various reasons) to sustain, and took a year out to prayerfully consider how best to proceed - or, in their words, to discern what it was that the Holy Spirit was encouraging them to do...
  • yohan300yohan300 Shipmate
    A shame there isn't an easy way to disband Chapters, perhaps reconstituting them to better serve their diverse communities after a year of prayerful reflection, during which the cathedral is run by lay members.
  • :lol:

    Now there's a thought...
    :wink:
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Following on from that thought, and it's not at all the same scenario (I emphasise that), but IIRC the scandal involving Roman Catholic priests and child abuse in Belgium a few years back resulted in several parish churches being taken over, as it were, by faithful laity.

    I'm not sure how they managed regarding the sacraments, but AIUI they kept the churches going whilst their erstwhile clergy were charged, convicted, and sent to jail (or elsewhere).

    I don't advocate this for Sheffield, or for any other Cathedral, but it's a salutary thought. The continuing life of the church, in general, does not necessarily depend on ordained clergy occupying positions of authority.

    I'll get me coat, before you haul me off to the Stake as a Hellbound Heretick...
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Unless it has changed in the last 30 years, I would have thought that the lack of a minor canon Precentor in a modern foundation cathedral makes for very little difficulty. The big decisions are made by the Dean and Chapter, and are essentially given to the Precentor to implement, with a greater or lesser degree of enthusiasm on her/his part. A minor precentor has a fair input but the decision making is done elsewhere.

    By the sound of things, though, Sheffield has more than its fair share of problems at the moment, and given the manpower shortages, it would seem to me that things may be being done on a catch-as-catch-can basis. However, that is pure speculation on my part.
  • Yes, I did wonder if they (Sheffield D & C) were finding it rather hard to cope at the moment...in which case, they're hardly the only ones in England.
  • It might intrigue people that the director of music is not the only person to lose his job at present. The coffee shop staff have as well. Yes the coffee shop was doing very nicely before lockdown.
  • Ah, but was it? Appearances can be deceptive...

    Have the staff actually been dismissed, or furloughed?
  • Perhaps we have the unfortunate situation of some information, but not all of it, which inhibits useful commentary. After many years of seeing reorganizations of all sort it seems that we have the phenomenon of vague idea followed by buzzwords, launch, stumble, then realize that they need to think it through, having first closed down the choir. It looks like they'll have to engage in 2-3 years of (possibly expensive) reorganization before they were at least where they were at the beginning. Or perhaps I am too cynical.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    edited July 2020
    Ah, but was it? Appearances can be deceptive...

    Have the staff actually been dismissed, or furloughed?

    Three members of the coffee shop staff have been made redundant.

    A look at the accounts filed at Companies House suggests, I think (I am not an accountant), that it was making a small surplus varying from just under £8,800 to just under £5,000 in the last few years, with running costs in the order of £45,000. That will have been fine while it continued to operate, but it was obviously incredibly vulnerable to the effects of the lockdown.
  • yohan300yohan300 Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    Chichester did likewise with their cafe. I suspect there will be more as most will operate at a loss until social distancing is ended and tourist numbers are back to normal. If finances are tight, other jobs at a cathedral may be at risk, and it might not be justifiable operating a loss-making cafe just to avoid redundancies.

    While cafes aren't exactly a core activity, it's not just their operating profit which is useful - they do act to draw people in. I've certainly had half days in cities where tea and cake has been in order, and combining it with a mooch around the cathedral has seemed a more attractive option than finding somewhere on the high street.

  • BroJames wrote: »
    Ah, but was it? Appearances can be deceptive...

    Have the staff actually been dismissed, or furloughed?

    Three members of the coffee shop staff have been made redundant.

    A look at the accounts filed at Companies House suggests, I think (I am not an accountant), that it was making a small surplus varying from just under £8,800 to just under £5,000 in the last few years, with running costs in the order of £45,000. That will have been fine while it continued to operate, but it was obviously incredibly vulnerable to the effects of the lockdown.

    Thanks @BroJames - I wondered if something like that was, indeed, the case. Sad, but perhaps inevitable under present circumstances.

  • The other thing is that I have been witness to an exchange between two musicians about this. One is a member of the Cathedral congregation and the other is not. Apparently, while the publicity is bad, the decision is the inevitable outcome of the decision the congregation took BEFORE lockdown. So nothing to do with the pandemic. Given my knowledge of the person conveying this information, I suspect if it was a dumbing down of music he would be moving somewhere else pretty sharpish.
  • Jengie Jon wrote: »
    The other thing is that I have been witness to an exchange between two musicians about this. One is a member of the Cathedral congregation and the other is not. Apparently, while the publicity is bad, the decision is the inevitable outcome of the decision the congregation took BEFORE lockdown. So nothing to do with the pandemic. Given my knowledge of the person conveying this information, I suspect if it was a dumbing down of music he would be moving somewhere else pretty sharpish.

    I admit I don't know much about the administration of cathedrals, but do congregations make decisions about cathedral policy?

    However, it is true that the Chapter have said they were making their plans to change things for some time, in fact the past couple of years. Which still raises the question why a director of music employed in February of this year, suddenly ups and leaves. Unless he left for personal reasons, one can only wonder what the interview process was about if it didn't reveal what these plans were supposed to be to the person who would be crucial in their implementation.
  • As has been said earlier, there's probably more going on than meets the eye, or is yet in the public domain.

    I'm not familiar with cathedral organisation either, but I believe our local fane has some sort of Council, on which the congregation (quite a sizeable one - 250-300 at the Sunday Eucharist in 'normal' times) is represented. Whether this has any legal standing, as a PCC would have, I don't know, but it would surely be a foolish Dean & Chapter who disregarded the views of the regular attendees...
  • "Attendees" ... is Outrage! Can we have "ers" instead of "ees", please?

    (N.B. I don't this will make any difference at either Sheffield Cathedral or the one near BF).
  • O my. See what a slip of the Typing Finger can do?
    :flushed:

    Sorry about that...please to substitute ers for ees.

    (*sings* 'Not for ees that prayer shall be...')
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Attendees (sadly IMHO) is not a new monstrosity - by more than a century IIRC.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Attendees (sadly IMHO) is not a new monstrosity - by more than a century IIRC.
    And this thread marks the first time I’ve read or heard “attenders,” at least that I can recall. Without context, I would have assumed it meant “attendant”—who who attends to another or to something.
  • To me, an attendee is the recipient of such attendance ...

    Perhaps we had better rerail this thread - anyone got a pair of these lying around? https://tinyurl.com/y347htz2
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    So logically, the Cathedral itself should be the attendee...
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    As an 'attendant' is the person who attends to one's needs, the word for a person who attends a service ought to be an 'attender'. As @Baptist Trainfan has already said, an 'attendee' ought to be the person whose needs are attended to by the attendant.

    If 'attendee' is being used for a person who should be an 'attender' that's confusing.

  • *sigh*

    Once again, I apologise for my Egregious Error.
    :cry:
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    ...those who attend....?
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    They also serve who only stand and attend ...
  • Meanwhile, in Sheffield:
  • Something I read on Facebook, which apparently comes from a choir mum, suggests that the director of music resigned due to a complete lack of communication from the powers that be whilst he was furloughed, and especially about arrangements for him returning to work.

    It went so far as to suggest that there has been some behaviour bordering on bullying by management towards the choir and parents over their reaction to the resignation, and that decisions about restarting were being made behind his back. He resigned as he was fed up with getting nowhere with the cathedral administration, and rather than them finding out why, they just panicked and disbanded the choir, giving some rather spurious reasons, the choristers only found out from the media, and it turns out this is a common theme there. (Not just his predecessors, but even the toddler group leaders!)
  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    I'm not sure how the way this thread has developed acknowledges the Ecclesiantics guidelines, though I believe it was - just - within at the outset. Nonetheless, I want to remind people that there are laws about what can and cannot be said or published, and contravening those laws brings the SHip into danger of having to deal with legal issues we cannot afford to do.
    Recent posts have dealt a lot with what we don't know, and can't know, and with speculation based on no verifiable facts.
    Please stop. Or someone less gentle than I will be visiting the thread.
    John Holding, Host in Ecclesiantics
  • This.

    However, it must be generally a very anxious time for most church or cathedral choirs, what with the current ban on singing, and no indication as to when that might be lifted.

    The possibility may need to be faced - in many places - that the choral tradition is over, at least for the foreseeable future. This is a sad thought, but perhaps we should remember that, in parish churches at least, the 'traditional' surpliced choir of boys and men was largely a Victorian innovation.

    With the decline in recent years of the 'traditional' choir in many places, the opportunity to innovate, to return the responsibility for the musical offering to members of the congregation, has meant a certain broadening of the repertoire, and a chance for the folk in the pews to join in making a joyful noise unto the Lord.

    This IMHO is not altogether a bad thing, and it may well be that the present hiatus will enable many places to (eventually) reinvigorate their music.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I take this on board, but how does one determine what route to take in the musical repertoire? Those who value the English choral tradition do not want to see it lost, to be replaced by something ephemeral and less enriching.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I take this on board, but how does one determine what route to take in the musical repertoire? Those who value the English choral tradition do not want to see it lost, to be replaced by something ephemeral and less enriching.

    Its perfectly possible to have both strands in the same place, each enriching a different service. Either/or doesn't have to be the only set of options. Would it not be possible to have a trad service at one time and a more family oriented one at a different time. I assume a cathedral would have enough clergy to cover more than one service on a Sunday.
  • I think that even those who do value the choral tradition (as I do) should realise that the vast majority of music ever composed is "ephemeral" - just look in the choir cupboard! Time sifts out the best pieces and relates the rest to oblivion.
  • Indeed (and be careful when you open that cupboard, as the accumulated detritus of ages may fall out onto your feet...)

    As @Alan29 says, there should (hopefully) be room for all sorts of Musick in church, or cathedral.

    I take the point that TPTB at @Puzzler's church may be trying to opt for just one sort of musical offering...
  • Puzzler wrote: »
    I take this on board, but how does one determine what route to take in the musical repertoire? Those who value the English choral tradition do not want to see it lost, to be replaced by something ephemeral and less enriching.

    Both/and not either/or. provide a varied diet perhaps without taking the high ground on one position or the other?
  • Indeed (and be careful when you open that cupboard, as the accumulated detritus of ages may fall out onto your feet...)
    Ah, you know that same cupboard then ... Of course, any piece of dog-eared, torn, water-marked, foxed and much-bepencilled music might still "come in useful some day".

  • balaambalaam Shipmate
    I was at a jazz mass a few days back which combined a big band and a cathedral choir (and liturgical tap dancing). The choir in question also sand a choral evensong the same day. Both/and works, but often not in the same service.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Indeed (and be careful when you open that cupboard, as the accumulated detritus of ages may fall out onto your feet...)
    Ah, you know that same cupboard then ... Of course, any piece of dog-eared, torn, water-marked, foxed and much-bepencilled music might still "come in useful some day".

    O yes. Ours is a rather splendid piece of Edwardian woodwork, capacious to the point of swallowing up just about anything that is put into it (I suspect it to be first cousin to the Wardrobe in Mr Lewis' stories...).

    Bepencilled music reminds me of the choir vestry of the Tin Tabernacle Of My Yoof. We had lots of anthems (we sang one at Evensong most Sundays), and I recall one copy of 'What Are These?' being bepencilled with the words 'Bits of Papper' (sic), the wretched boy* responsible being unable to spell...

    *Not me, Guv...
    balaam wrote: »
    I was at a jazz mass a few days back which combined a big band and a cathedral choir (and liturgical tap dancing). The choir in question also sand a choral evensong the same day. Both/and works, but often not in the same service.

    Wonderful!
    :grin:

    I'm reminded of happy days at a certain Lutheran church in London, where Vespers might be 'jazz' (no tap-dancing IIRC :disappointed: ), or might include a Bach cantata...

  • This situation creates a clericalist utopia in which priests may do what they like and everyone else has to tug the forelock and agree. Otherwise they are spreading alarm and despondency. My idea of hell. The church of England is not coterminous with the kingdom of heaven.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I take this on board, but how does one determine what route to take in the musical repertoire? Those who value the English choral tradition do not want to see it lost, to be replaced by something ephemeral and less enriching.

    Just remember - one style of music may be enriching to you and me, but not to Jill standing over there. She may get more benefit from something very different.

  • Gee D wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I take this on board, but how does one determine what route to take in the musical repertoire? Those who value the English choral tradition do not want to see it lost, to be replaced by something ephemeral and less enriching.

    Just remember - one style of music may be enriching to you and me, but not to Jill standing over there. She may get more benefit from something very different.

    Also never make presumptions. Amy (age 8) and Joshua (age 10) may by be inspired, enthused and spiritually enriched by attending a service where the choir of adults and children sings a "traditional" service, whereas they may be annoyed, embarrassed and atheised at the "family" service where Steve and Emma sing Kumbaya My Lord with their guitars.

    We had Steve and Emma along regularly at our comprehensive school assemblies to fulfil the religion quota, and as exemplars of Christianity they were met with derision and laughter.

    Whatever the style of music, excellence commands respect, and from that other things can follow. The effort involved in maintaining a full choir means they are far more likely to tend to excellence than some ad-hoc amateur praise band.

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    I'm sorry, I find that statement unhelpful to a degree. Characterising modern worship music - whether we like it or not - as "Kum Ba Yah" is an outdated and ridiculous caricature. That song 'died' many years ago.

    Equally, to compare a cathedral choir with an "amateur praise band" is unfair, as you aren't comnparing like for like. There are some highly competent, even superb, praise bands whose hard work and musicality I can respect even though I may not like their songs; conversely some local choirs choirs should have locked up the music cupboard and abandoned the chancel years ago.
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    I'm sorry, I find that statement unhelpful to a degree. Characterising modern worship music - whether we like it or not - as "Kum Ba Yah" is an outdated and ridiculous caricature. That song 'died' many years ago.

    Equally, to compare a cathedral choir with an "amateur praise band" is unfair, as you aren't comnparing like for like. There are some highly competent, even superb, praise bands whose hard work and musicality I can respect even though I may not like their songs; conversely some local choirs choirs should have locked up the music cupboard and abandoned the chancel years ago.

    Totally agree!
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    So do I.

    Nor is all choral music any good. What is good and bad can be as much a matter of opinion as "Kum Ba Yah". Even a well trained choir can't automatically make a silk purse out of a choral sow's ear. Some years ago I happened to be in a cathedral city in the south of England on a Sunday afternoon. I won't name it, but it is celebrated for having a 123 metre spire. I attended their choral evensong. I thought the music on that particular occasion was dreadful, memorably angular, unmelodic and unmusical. Others might have appreciated it, but as far as I was concerned, the choir did their best, but there are limits to what anyone could have made out of it. I've been there on several occasions since when it has been fine.

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    I take this on board, but how does one determine what route to take in the musical repertoire? Those who value the English choral tradition do not want to see it lost, to be replaced by something ephemeral and less enriching.

    Just remember - one style of music may be enriching to you and me, but not to Jill standing over there. She may get more benefit from something very different.

    Which is why a mixed economy matters.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    It may because it's 9.53 pm here, but I just don't follow that.
  • I'm sorry, I find that statement unhelpful to a degree. Characterising modern worship music - whether we like it or not - as "Kum Ba Yah" is an outdated and ridiculous caricature. That song 'died' many years ago.
    Not in the American South, it didn’t. :wink: And when it’s sung right*, it can be quite beautiful. And it would essentially be considered a spiritual, not as anything modern or trendy.

    But I agree completely with your broader point.

    Alan29 wrote: »
    Its perfectly possible to have both strands in the same place, each enriching a different service. Either/or doesn't have to be the only set of options. Would it not be possible to have a trad service at one time and a more family oriented one at a different time. I assume a cathedral would have enough clergy to cover more than one service on a Sunday.
    It’s also possible to have both strands of music (only two strands, though?) enriching a single service. We have only one Sunday service, and mix musical styles with some regularity. (Our mix does include a praise band, but it often includes a variety of instruments other than organ or piano.) People seem to appreciate the variety.


    *”Right” can, of course, be a matter of opinion. I’m speaking here of my opinion. :wink:

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    "Kum Ba Yah" is an outdated and ridiculous caricature. That song 'died' many years ago.
    Not in the American South, it didn’t. :wink: And when it’s sung right*, it can be quite beautiful. And it would essentially be considered a spiritual, not as anything modern or trendy.
    Fair enough ... for many people here in the UK it has trendy long-haired jumper early 1970s Methodist connotations. Context is clearly all and I'm glad you've "reclaimed" it (if you ever lost it in the first place, that is).

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