Income and expenditure?

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  • Where are the people to come from, to see the liturgy displayed on these screens?

    I hear of a church with a regular congregation of 100, where only 17 turned up to the first post-lockdown service. Hopefully, more will come back, but...if TPTB hope that hordes of online viewers will flock to the church in person, I suspect they may hope in vain.

    Or, to put it another way, I agree with @Puzzler that 'now' may perhaps not be the right time to indulge in such luxuries.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I have just read an email saying that “the PCC has agreed to the screens and the decision has been activated”. This was in reply to a member who raised new areas of concern. Not all members have shared their reply online and two members do not have email. I do not even know if they were consulted, I would hope so, but I can imagine they would be against the proposal. Several issues had been raised and I had suggested further discussion was needed, so this announcement has surprised me.
    Today I had a phone call from a friend in the congregation and choir who informed me that she foresees the end of the choir as a) they will not be allowed to sing and b) most Choir members will not be rushing back to church. She then said she and others may well use this break as a watershed and not return to this church at all.
    So yes, I do wonder who will be attending to appreciate the screens.
  • 'Other Half', I guess...which, being interpreted, probably means 'spouse'.
    Ah, duh. I was over complicating it by trying to make it a church acronym, like PP for parish priest.

    Thank you, and carry on.

  • Puzzler wrote: »
    Today I had a phone call from a friend in the congregation and choir who informed me that she foresees the end of the choir as a) they will not be allowed to sing and b) most Choir members will not be rushing back to church. She then said she and others may well use this break as a watershed and not return to this church at all.

    At our place, the choir is probably going to be on hiatus all year. I don't see any chance of resuming singing before next September. I think we'll keep pretty much all the choir members as parishioners - we don't really have people who just come to sing - but I don't know how many we'll get back in the choir after a year...
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Any idea what an HMI inspection might be please?
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    HMI was Her Majesty's Inspectorate of whatever in my day. I suspect this is a similar idea.
  • In this case, "... of Education" - i.e.a school inspector in the Olden Days. Sorry.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thank you both. A bit arcane.
  • Our church installed the fancy screens pre Covid (funded by a generous legacy) they were in use for about a month before we went into lockdown. No idea when we will start meeting again, so we have brand new state of the art equipment that has hardly been used.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Choir members and others not returning - not so much because there will be no singing, more to do with changes in style of worship in recent months, downgrading of musical input, changes to liturgy......
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Puzzler wrote: »
    ... Today I had a phone call from a friend in the congregation and choir who informed me that she foresees the end of the choir as a) they will not be allowed to sing and b) most Choir members will not be rushing back to church. She then said she and others may well use this break as a watershed and not return to this church at all.
    So yes, I do wonder who will be attending to appreciate the screens.
    I get the point in your later post about other changes, but that still does raise a question. If she intends to give up attending church if she can't sing the way she likes, have she and some of the choir been there just because they liked singing in a particular style rather than because they had any actual Christian faith.

    Does it also betoken a feeling that they have been doing God a favour by coming along each week, that he and the vicar owe it to them to be very grateful that they were there, and should feel mortally offended when they stop coming?

  • Hmm. Our Place has a certain couple, who have in the past worked hard, especially to get the parish out of major debt some 15 years back.

    In recent times, they have complained incessantly about (a) the length of the Sunday Mass - usually about an hour, but occasionally running a little longer - and (b) the fact that 'they don't know any of the hymns'.

    'Does it also betoken a feeling that they have been doing God a favour by coming along each week, that he and the vicar owe it to them to be very grateful that they were there, and should feel mortally offended when they stop coming?'

    Sadly, they rather give the impression at which @Enoch hints...
    :disappointed:

    The people concerned haven't ceased attending, though. AIUI, they intend to come to the Thursday morning Mass instead - 20 minutes' worth, with no hymns.

  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    A number of us have continued to remain loyal, as it is our parish church, and for some, the place where all their life events have been celebrated ( I am a relative newcomer). It was a MOR church with strong liturgical and musical base, but changes over the past couple of years have made for a very different set up. The enforced closure has given time to think and look at what neighbouring churches are offering. It hasn’t helped that the musical input into the online services has been hymns or songs which are unfamiliar.
  • Well, yours may not be the Only Place where the difficulties of the times are giving people the chance to pause and look around them at other churches, where they may feel more at home.

    It's not all about comfort, of course, but sometimes 'moving church' might help people to grow in, and express, their Christian faith more fully. As we say so often on these boards, one size does NOT fit all!
  • LolaLola Shipmate Posts: 43
    edited August 2020
    PDR wrote: »
    Personally speaking, screens at the far end of the nave are a disaster. I find them extremely difficult to read - sit close and you get a crick in your neck, sit too far away and you cannot read them - and unless you have a competent IT they are another invitation to look amateurish or tacky, or both! Also, the focus of worship should be the Communion Table or Pulpit, not a screen. Most folk spend enough time worshipping the damn screens at work! Anyway, my mate who is into the CGM tells me that screens are passé, and if you want to hip you need to project it on to the wall. BTW, this does not work if you have Bodley stenciling!
    ..

    I loathe display screens and projectors including on the wall for every reason you gave - and also bad positioning means you often can’t see them if people in the pew in front are standing unless you also stand. This irks me and I am able bodied let alone those who have difficulties (in non Covid times I sit with the ladies with sticks and walking frames) or are too little/children.

    Will you need a laptop / device to set up and control/show whatever it is you are going to display? Might it be feasible to send the display from that to a webpage and people look it up on their phones instead?? Is that bonkers? And a few printed sheets for anyone who prefers paper/does not do smart devices?
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Good thinking.
  • Lola wrote: »
    Might it be feasible to send the display from that to a webpage and people look it up on their phones instead?? Is that bonkers?

    If I hold my phone at a comfortable viewing distance, its screen subtends an angle of about 12 degrees at my eye in the wide direction. Puzzler's screens can be 24 feet away to span the same angle.

    With 6' of separation, Puzzler's place can get three rows of people with a better view of the screen than I would of my phone.

    So I'd say if Puzzler's place wants more than three rows of people to see these screens, everyone using their phone would be better.

    Assuming that everyone has a phone. At my current shack, most people have suitable smartphones, but some of our elderly don't. At my parents' in the UK, I'd say the majority don't carry a smartphone.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    We have screens, I am on the AV team and produce the visuals.

    But now isn’t the time imo. Three of our team are shielding and won’t be available when Church re-opens. I’m not going to do the task alone so I think we’ll be moving to service sheets for the foreseeable, when (if) we reopen. Easily printed and taken home.

    The ‘if’ is because the decision isn’t being made until the Church Council meeting on the 13th August (by Zoom, of course).
  • Sensible, @Boogie !

    In all fairness, many churches with screens etc. have a very competent IT team, and manage extremely well, but, with key people still absent for various very good reasons, now is the time to keep things as simple as possible.

    In any case, the Ban on Singing is likely to be in force for quite some time yet, alas...
    :disappointed:
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Indeed. At least proper research is being undertaken into the risk factors of singing.

    As for a competent IT team, methinks some training will be needed.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    I’m not going to do the task alone so I think we’ll be moving to service sheets for the foreseeable, when (if) we reopen. Easily printed and taken home.

    Our diocese has explicitly banned printed service sheets (also communal hymnals and prayer books.) Thou shalt not place thy virus in the palm of thy neigbour.

    So we're rigging up a screen and projector to display the liturgy, so that those who don't know it all by heart have something to look at. Probably we'll also have it available on the web, for people with phones, but that requires us to upgrade the church WiFi first...
  • Our diocese has explicitly banned printed service sheets.
    That does surprise me since single-use service sheets, carefully prepared and disposed of, are OK.

    After all, newspapers (in Britain at least) have continued to be sold from racks in shops right through the pandemic!

  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Service sheets can be put on a table for picking up then taken home after the service. So long as the person who prints it is careful with hand hygiene, no problem.

    Our AV set up is excellent with ceiling projectors which project front and sides. It’s lack of wo/man power that will necessitate service sheets - not equipment. It takes one on the laptop and one on the sound desk and, at the moment, there’s only me. 🙂
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Service sheets can be put on a table for picking up then taken home after the service. So long as the person who prints it is careful with hand hygiene, no problem.
    And/or does it far enough in advance.

  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Of course there is still, even in a plague year, the question of trembling forests ...
  • Zappa wrote: »
    Of course there is still, even in a plague year, the question of trembling forests ...

    ... until Birnam Wood do come to Dunsinane, you mean?
  • That does surprise me since single-use service sheets, carefully prepared and disposed of, are OK.

    I think it's mostly a case of having fewer objects in the space, so there are fewer things to think about and fewer opportunities for error. I agree that they could be used safely, but we are, of course, obedient to the Bishop's instructions.
  • We are basically using the screen but are making a few sheets available. That's what we usually do, though we don't usually project or print the words of hymns that are in the book.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    edited August 2020
    Zappa wrote: »
    Of course there is still, even in a plague year, the question of trembling forests ...

    ... until Birnam Wood do come to Dunsinane, you mean?

    Yes, that .... though more "until Kimberly-Clark do come to Birnam Wood"
  • Projector screens are only essential in light buildings or where there are space problems. OHP will work or a straightforward projector attached to a laptop will work as well. There is a guide to what lumens you would want from a projector in a given setting Yes, you can have dual projectors. Both should be cheaper than large led screens.
  • Although a good screen will enhance the luminosity of the image, as compared to a bare wall.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Projector screens are only essential in light buildings or where there are space problems.
    …or where there’s no suitable bare wall
  • Which would probably be the majority of older church buildings!
    :wink:
  • As I said above, bare walls generally don't give such a good image as a screen.

    Does installation of screens/LED screens require Faculties and/or Listed Building Consent?
  • Not sure - they might do if they have to be fixed to the fabric of the building, but AIUI a portable item might not...
  • Not sure - they might do if they have to be fixed to the fabric of the building, but AIUI a portable item might not...

    Something high enough to be seen over the heads of people in the pews in front is going to require a fairly hefty stand to be safely free-standing.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    One think I have learned is that laser pointers don't point at an electronic screen - just in case you were wanting to do any highlighting of liturgical presentations
  • My previous church simply had a screen that when up behind the communion table. If I recall correctly there was no special superstructure but a frame to which the screen was attached that was supported by two legs. Getting the projector up high enough to project onto it was harder work. Yes, I put it up several times.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I am told our screens are now in place, but as I won’t be going into church for some time, I shalln ‘t get to see what they look like yet.
  • I learnt this morning that Our Place is likely to have a financial shortfall of quite a lot of £££ by the end of this year. This is partly due to reduced income (no fundraising events since February), but also due to having had to meet a number of one-off bills for various necessary items of maintenance work, as well as the usual paying for utilities etc.

    Fortunately, giving is on the increase (albeit not exactly exponentially!), and we have some cash reserves to draw on, so (providing we don't receive any more large bills) things may actually improve in a few months' time.

    There is, however, no way we would even dream of spending large sums on luxury items such as screens, however useful or desirable such things may be.

    Most of our neighbouring parishes are in a similar situation, and doubtless the non-Anglican churches are, too. Some have still not re-opened for public worship...
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Sounds a very sensible and realistic response to me.
  • Our place splashed out (ahem) on some rather fancy bog-roll holders a while back, and now they've sat around (cough) for ages and no-one has got around to affixing them to anything, I seem to have copped for the job. I'm averse to spending money on much of anything, but since these are already bought, I suppose I ought to get on with it - could be worse, I could have to install a pile of tellies...
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