Where I am now I can work on the principle that there are 40 other churches doing the modern stuff, so we can keep on doing the traditional stuff giving folks an alternative to the modern worship music, or the local version of the Dalek liturgy.
There is an unswerving excellence to cathedral music making which makes clericalists uncomfortable because it requires excellence they can't control. This is what I hear in so many posts by clergy and preter clergy. They just don't want to deal with people with any depth of training and knowledge. And I stand by the statement that cathedral organists are uniquely well trained for their profession.
I think, however, that in some cases there may be a clash of aims, in that the musicians may be primarily focussed on the music per se while the clergy will want to set the music within the context of the specific act of worship. I don't in any way claim to be a music professional but I do have a pretty broad knowledge of church music which I very much choose and tailor for each service.
I appreciate that the cathedral context is different to any I've ever been in but, personally, I would find it extremely difficult to work in a situation where the music had been chosen by others, well in advance of my sermon prepatation, and with little or no consultation. Of course things may not actually be like that - but, if they are, then there would be an inherent tension between clergy and musicians, however excellent both might be.
I think, however, that in some cases there may be a clash of aims, in that the musicians may be primarily focussed on the music per se while the clergy will want to set the music within the context of the specific act of worship. I don't in any way claim to be a music professional but I do have a pretty broad knowledge of church music which I very much choose and tailor for each service.
I appreciate that the cathedral context is different to any I've ever been in but, personally, I would find it extremely difficult to work in a situation where the music had been chosen by others, well in advance of my sermon prepatation, and with little or no consultation. Of course things may not actually be like that - but, if they are, then there would be an inherent tension between clergy and musicians, however excellent both might be.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can comment.
Music is chosen by the music committee and or the precentor, who in an English cathedral is usually a clergy member of the Chapter. So as preacher you would have no input unless you were part of the committee. Cathedral foundations are self sustaining and self propelling, they don't usually rely on ad hoc decisions
I appreciate that the cathedral context is different to any I've ever been in but, personally, I would find it extremely difficult to work in a situation where the music had been chosen by others, well in advance of my sermon prepatation, and with little or no consultation. Of course things may not actually be like that - but, if they are, then there would be an inherent tension between clergy and musicians, however excellent both might be..
I think there is a tradition of greater independence in Anglican churches with strong traditional music programs - something that can cause conflict if the clergy and the music director are not on the same page about their respective roles. The idea being that if the parish is going to hire a talented and highly trained musician they need to give them some latitude and independence in the details of how the music program is to be run on week-to-week basis.
There is an unswerving excellence to cathedral music making which makes clericalists uncomfortable because it requires excellence they can't control. This is what I hear in so many posts by clergy and preter clergy. They just don't want to deal with people with any depth of training and knowledge. And I stand by the statement that cathedral organists are uniquely well trained for their profession.
With all due respect - rubbish. Cathedral music can sometimes be poorly performed, poorly chosen and poorly received. Not every cathedral service shows 'unswerving excellence', any more than every parish choir/praise band/soloist can be excellent every time.
I appreciate that the cathedral context is different to any I've ever been in but, personally, I would find it extremely difficult to work in a situation where the music had been chosen by others, well in advance of my sermon prepatation, and with little or no consultation. Of course things may not actually be like that - but, if they are, then there would be an inherent tension between clergy and musicians, however excellent both might be.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can comment.
Bear in mind also that in a cathedral setting, we are working with a lectionary that has all the readings for every Sunday Eucharist defined in a 3-year cycle. (Oh and morning and evening prayer and daily Eucharists too, but that works on a different cycle with which I'm less familiar). So it's well known, and well in advance, what the readings for a particular week are going to be. And therefore the starting point for the sermon. Heck, I could (probably) work out now what the readings would be on a particular Sunday three years from now if pushed (assuming no little local variations or moved feasts).
Also, if the choir are going to sing new music and expand the repertoire, you need to start rehearsing it a number of weeks in advance. Depending on the level of difficulty, we can be starting to learn new anthems/settings etc well over a month before they're scheduled into the music list. We can do that knowing what the readings will be, but do you plan your sermon that far in advance? And I should add that in order for the choir to start learning 4-6weeks in advance, the organist will already have needed to learn the part...
I take your points, of course I do; and I know from first hand (having been in a church though not cathedral choir) the timescale to learn new anthems and the like. My comments were more around the choice of congregational hymns, especially as there can be several different sermonic approaches to the lectionary readings.
My comments were more around the choice of congregational hymns, especially as there can be several different sermonic approaches to the lectionary readings.
Again, time scale (for us) comes into play here. We have to have the 2 sets of service orders drafted, approved and proof-read for printing on Thursday (so there is a day in which to remedy things if the printer throws a wobbly. A not infrequent occurrence). And pre-COVID this would mean somewhere probably upward of 300 service books weekly (includes all hymns, music for all congregational sung parts). More if there are for example baptisms. So it all pretty much needs to be there in principle early in the week, and it's fair bit of work to lay it all out. And judging from the social media feed of clergy, sermon preparation is a Fri/Sat before the Sunday job. After everything has been printed.
My comments were more around the choice of congregational hymns, especially as there can be several different sermonic approaches to the lectionary readings.
And judging from the social media feed of clergy, sermon preparation is a Fri/Sat job.
If that's the case every week then they are boasting or inefficient
My comments were more around the choice of congregational hymns, especially as there can be several different sermonic approaches to the lectionary readings.
And judging from the social media feed of clergy, sermon preparation is a Fri/Sat job.
If that's the case every week then they are boasting or inefficient
Not the same preacher every week, and agreed, not all.
I agree, EM. In my last church I had to have the hymns chosen (both for doing the notice-sheet and to aid the organist in his preparation) by Thursday teatime at the very latest although I'd hope to have done it earlier. This would also include any responsive or other liturgy in which I wanted congregational participation.
I would start my service preparation by Monday (or even slightly earlier) and hope to have drawn up a long-list of hymns by Monday evening which I would then email to my organist for discussion. He would reply with comments and other suggestions and this to-and-fro would continue for a couple of days. Sometimes there would be an email glitch and I'd receive a panicky phone call on Wednesday evening: "You haven't sent me any hymns!" Here we sadly don't have live music but I still need to prepare any A/V and hymnsheets, and inform the operators of the Magic Music Machine, in advance.
I've always aimed to take Saturday as my day off so that my wife, who worked full-time, and I could have time together. Service preparation only becomes last minute due to holidays, illness or other force majeur, or on the very rare occasions when it becomes imperative to make a Christian comment on a major news event that has broken towards the end of the week.
There is an unswerving excellence to cathedral music making which makes clericalists uncomfortable because it requires excellence they can't control. This is what I hear in so many posts by clergy and preter clergy. They just don't want to deal with people with any depth of training and knowledge. And I stand by the statement that cathedral organists are uniquely well trained for their profession.
There’s a well-documented difficult dynamic in an organisation with a sub-group or groups (or even an individual) with a particular expertise. The groups quite naturally have a proper commitment to the standards of their area of expertise. The problem comes when a group’s commitment to those standards is out of sync with the wider aims of the organisation as a whole.
It is described by Charles Handy in Understanding Voluntary Organisations in a section which could have been written with the classic issues of church musicians in mind.
Of course, clergy coming out of parish ministry into cathedrals tend not to know the painful truth that certain elements of cathedral establishments are semi-independent fiefdoms that have to be appeased and persuaded, not ordered around, and are not amenable to 'management' in the normal sense of the word. Old Foundation cathedrals can be particularly difficult in this regard, as the independence of the four great officers is meant to prevent innovation. The general idea behind cathedral liturgy, traditionally, is that you set everything up, and then just tweak it occasionally when something gets out of whack. They are not really the places where one should contemplate playing silly buggers with the regular liturgy. Anything extra is fair game, as there is no standing tradition about such things.
In parish churches, if an organist and a clergyman are around one another long enough, and don't have enormous egos, they get the hang of each other. I think my current organist and I have about gotten one another trained in that we have very few conflicts about music, however, that may be because I favour consistency over innovation. Most services are BCP, though some come out of the Lent-Holy Week-Easter supplement toned down to the point where they are acceptable to a conservative, Protestant, MOTR parish.
The usual drill here is that hymns are chosen Sunday evening after the evening service and dinner. If I fail to do this the whole week goes out of whack, for some reason. Sermons are sketched out and the bulletin put together on Tuesday. Bulletins are not a big job as we use books, the main function of the bulletin is to stop me having to announce everything. Wednesday and Thursday I can get on with non-Sunday related stuff. The sermons are written out in full and edited on Friday and Saturday.
I grew up with the vicar choosing the hymns en bloc weeks ahead of time, presumably with some reference to the lectionary, but that was in a situation where the vicar also supervised the choir and the organists were enthusiastic amateurs rather than professionals.
There is an unswerving excellence to cathedral music making which makes clericalists uncomfortable because it requires excellence they can't control. This is what I hear in so many posts by clergy and preter clergy. They just don't want to deal with people with any depth of training and knowledge. And I stand by the statement that cathedral organists are uniquely well trained for their profession.
There’s a well-documented difficult dynamic in an organisation with a sub-group or groups (or even an individual) with a particular expertise. The groups quite naturally have a proper commitment to the standards of their area of expertise. The problem comes when a group’s commitment to those standards is out of sync with the wider aims of the organisation as a whole.
I don't doubt that this can be a problem. On the other hand I've also seen parish priests who seem to regard a staff member or volunteer with any kind of competence in an area outside their personal competence as a threat to their authority.
I grew up with the vicar choosing the hymns en bloc weeks ahead of time, presumably with some reference to the lectionary, but that was in a situation where the vicar also supervised the choir and the organists were enthusiastic amateurs rather than professionals.
At our shack, the priest and the choir director would meet every ~6 weeks or so, to choose the music for the period starting in ~6 weeks time. This then gave the choir time to rehearse the selected anthems. Hymns were generally selected in the same meeting.
Managing people who have skills that you don't have, and perhaps don't really understand, is a talent in itself. I've met lots of managers that can't do that - this isn't by any means a problem limited to the priesthood.
"Kum Ba Yah" is an outdated and ridiculous caricature. That song 'died' many years ago.
Not in the American South, it didn’t. And when it’s sung right*, it can be quite beautiful. And it would essentially be considered a spiritual, not as anything modern or trendy.
Fair enough ... for many people here in the UK it has trendy long-haired jumper early 1970s Methodist connotations. Context is clearly all and I'm glad you've "reclaimed" it (if you ever lost it in the first place, that is).
FWIW, though I’m not always a fan of “Gaither Homecoming,” this is along the lines of how I generally hear “Kum Ba Yah,” and what I’d consider “sung right.” Others’ experiences and preferences may, of course, differ.
I grew up with the vicar choosing the hymns en bloc weeks ahead of time, presumably with some reference to the lectionary, but that was in a situation where the vicar also supervised the choir and the organists were enthusiastic amateurs rather than professionals.
I used to choose hymns weeks ahead, but the present organist just likes to get things week by week. We are his side gig, so he prefers the low stress approach. Organist in the last church liked to get a month at a time, so I duly obliged. I have some musical training - thankfully enough to know when I am out of my depth - so I have always been able to work fairly well with musicians. I have have great relationships with the two permanent deacons I have worked with because we both have distinct ministries. However, I do tend to be brutal on know-it-all, newbie priests who won't take a hint - especially the ones who take 'we don't do that here' as an invitation to defy the rector and engage in guerilla liturgics when I am out-of-town. They have not worked out at that stage that the pissed off churchwarden will email the Rector even though he is on vacation.
Back in the Dear Dead Days Beyond Recall (when we had such things as hymns, and singing) the practice was for my fellow-Reader to compile a list of hymns a month at a time, in consultation with FatherInCharge and our organist/pianist.
They work on the Principle of Appropriateness, so that at least 2 or 3 of the 4 (usually) hymns tie in with the readings. We have a default hymnbook, but fellow-Reader also has access to other sources, and provides a laminated card with the words if a hymn from one of those sources is to be sung. He is most careful to ensure that all is properly covered by our CCLI licence.
FInC is rather partial to metrical Glorias and Lord's Prayers, so every so often we might have one or other of these in addition to the hymns. Some are, shall we say, more acceptable/singable than others!
The musicians pick the music at ours, always in line with the readings. The PP sometimes asks for something special on a particular Sunday.
I would no more expect the priest to chose hymns than he would want me to pick the topic of his homily. Different ministries.
I've been reading through this with interest (especially the C.Handy book - I wonder if I should buy a copy). I play in one or two ensembles in churches, as a kind of outlet for skills I once had and can still offer - but I really wouldn't want to pick the music. I'm glad when someone says 'we're doing that, that, and that' even if I don't like the pieces - I can then just get on with playing and arranging them competently, as best I can.
The musicians pick the music at ours, always in line with the readings. The PP sometimes asks for something special on a particular Sunday.
I would no more expect the priest to chose hymns than he would want me to pick the topic of his homily. Different ministries.
You are probably not a purist, then. My two experiments with letting the organist pick the hymns without input from me have both ended in congregational rebellions, as both organists were prone to picking hymns that were popular around 1870, and have not been heard since 1939. In the case of one of the organists this was a bit of a surprise because she was born 1955-ish, and the other had been an organ scholar somewhere decent - SMVPH, IIRC - but both were musical and liturgical purists, which led to some unfortunate results.
The musicians pick the music at ours, always in line with the readings. The PP sometimes asks for something special on a particular Sunday.
I would no more expect the priest to chose hymns than he would want me to pick the topic of his homily. Different ministries.
You are probably not a purist, then. My two experiments with letting the organist pick the hymns without input from me have both ended in congregational rebellions, as both organists were prone to picking hymns that were popular around 1870, and have not been heard since 1939. In the case of one of the organists this was a bit of a surprise because she was born 1955-ish, and the other had been an organ scholar somewhere decent - SMVPH, IIRC - but both were musical and liturgical purists, which led to some unfortunate results.
Not a purist at all. Just as happy playing foursquare Victorian SATB hymn as jamming along with something modern. I have two tests, firstly does it fit the theme of the day, secondly will our congregation want to sing it.
The musicians pick the music at ours, always in line with the readings. The PP sometimes asks for something special on a particular Sunday.
I would no more expect the priest to chose hymns than he would want me to pick the topic of his homily. Different ministries.
You are probably not a purist, then. My two experiments with letting the organist pick the hymns without input from me have both ended in congregational rebellions, as both organists were prone to picking hymns that were popular around 1870, and have not been heard since 1939. In the case of one of the organists this was a bit of a surprise because she was born 1955-ish, and the other had been an organ scholar somewhere decent - SMVPH, IIRC - but both were musical and liturgical purists, which led to some unfortunate results.
Not a purist at all. Just as happy playing foursquare Victorian SATB hymn as jamming along with something modern. I have two tests, firstly does it fit the theme of the day, secondly will our congregation want to sing it.
I have a third - are the congregation capable of singing it.
When I took over the choosing of music during an interregnum, as the organists in our three centres could not agree, I was presented with a list from one church of hymns which the small congregation could and would sing. Woe betide me if I nominated anything strange!
The musicians pick the music at ours, always in line with the readings. The PP sometimes asks for something special on a particular Sunday.
I would no more expect the priest to chose hymns than he would want me to pick the topic of his homily. Different ministries.
You are probably not a purist, then. My two experiments with letting the organist pick the hymns without input from me have both ended in congregational rebellions, as both organists were prone to picking hymns that were popular around 1870, and have not been heard since 1939. In the case of one of the organists this was a bit of a surprise because she was born 1955-ish, and the other had been an organ scholar somewhere decent - SMVPH, IIRC - but both were musical and liturgical purists, which led to some unfortunate results.
Not a purist at all. Just as happy playing foursquare Victorian SATB hymn as jamming along with something modern. I have two tests, firstly does it fit the theme of the day, secondly will our congregation want to sing it.
I have a third - are the congregation capable of singing it.
Yes thats there too. Not a big fan of concertised liturgy.
That is simply not how cathedrals work. I respect that it's how parishes work but they're different creatures. You are dancing at the death of a tradition and the skills required to maintain it. And no I will not reconcile myself to that
The other point is that I don't, from my own experience, in any way accept the equation of that kind of liturgy with a concert. That is an old and incorrect saw of clericalists in love with the control that comes with enforced mediocrity.
The other point is that I don't, from my own experience, in any way accept the equation of that kind of liturgy with a concert. That is an old and incorrect saw of clericalists in love with the control that comes with enforced mediocrity.
IME it’s only some clergy who draw a parallel with concerts.
It’s something I encounter at least as often in lay people, both Anglican and other, who may enjoy the music, but don’t find attendance at choral evensong feels like worship to them. They express feeling shut out from participating.
I agree that in some cases it’s a manifestation of clericalism - but far from always.
I hold there is a slightly different set of rules for Parish Church Cathedrals like Sheffield in that, musically speaking, they will usually have more in common with a large parish church on Sunday mornings, than with one of the older, non-parochial, cathedrals. Ripon, Southwell, and Manchester lie somewhere between as they were parish churches as well as collegiate churches and choral foundation. Music in such parish church cathedrals is always a juggling act in that you have to accommodate the parish church function, whilst providing music of a standard expected in 'quires and places where they sing' - and that ain't easy!
Although Ripon is not exactly what I am talking about, but the Parish Eucharist was definitely a parish function sung to a congregational setting (Merbeck when first moved there!) and the hymns did not stray too far off the parochial beaten path. The only high brow choir pieces were the offertory anthem, and usually a motet during communion. The congregation for that service was easily two hundred. Matins and Evensong on Sundays were of the full choral variety with a smaller, but still decent sized, congregation. In those days, Choral Eucharists seemed to confined to major feats in term time, though that has changed in recent years.
Times have changed. Our local Cathedral (not a 'parish church cathedral') has vanishingly-small congregations (apart from the choir, of course!) at Mattins and Evensong, although Evensong on special occasions can fill the Quire...
The main Sunday Eucharist*, however, has a congregation of 250+, with numerous young families - like a MOTR parish church, only somewhat bigger than many, IYSWIM.
I know of no plans here to revamp the music etc. etc., and I expect Choral Evensong will reappear in due course, but I can quite understand some places seizing the opportunity of lockdown to 'take stock'. I wouldn't be surprised if Sunday Choral Mattins gave up the ghost, though, and wasn't reinstated.
(*Pre-lockdown, of course. They are currently holding 2 Sunday morning Eucharists - 930am and 1130am - with limited numbers at each, to take account of social-distancing.)
On a purely personal note, and possibly courting martyrdom, I find Choral Evensong only slightly less tedious than Choral Mattins...
And possibly a fourth - is the congregation capable of learning it? Or at least willing to give it a try...
I would say that the questions does the congregation want to sing it, can the congregation sing and can the congregation learn it are all encompassed in the question "Will the congregation sing it?"
And possibly a fourth - is the congregation capable of learning it? Or at least willing to give it a try...
I would say that the questions does the congregation want to sing it, can the congregation sing and can the congregation learn it are all encompassed in the question "Will the congregation sing it?"
Not necessarily. I've seen more than one occasion where it became clear at the point of singing that while for some values the congregation had "sung" the hymn an objective observer would conclude that they could not, in fact, sing it.
I was presented with a list from one church of hymns which the small congregation could and would sing.
Some years ago I conducted worship at a church I did not know. I was sent a (long) list of "hymns and songs we know" - most helpful. I chose accordingly and advised the church a few days in advance.
Come the service, not only the congregation but also the organist didn't know two of the hymns. Of course, it was All My Fault ...
On a purely personal note, and possibly courting martyrdom, I find Choral Evensong only slightly less tedious than Choral Mattins...
I'll get me Prayer Book...
Talk about YMMV! Choral Mattins, or in a parish church - sung Mattins, is probably my favourite service. I am a lot less keen on Choral Eucharists which seem to drag on and on and on, especially when the setting is something long winded and complex.
I admit to being a fan of Choral Evensong, even when I'm not in the choir myself, and I'm sorry to hear it's not doing well in some places. One of the highlights of my few days in London two years was attending Evensong at St. Paul's, which was wonderful even though their choir boys were halfway across the world touring the US.
And possibly a fourth - is the congregation capable of learning it? Or at least willing to give it a try...
I would say that the questions does the congregation want to sing it, can the congregation sing and can the congregation learn it are all encompassed in the question "Will the congregation sing it?"
Not necessarily. I've seen more than one occasion where it became clear at the point of singing that while for some values the congregation had "sung" the hymn an objective observer would conclude that they could not, in fact, sing it.
We refer to our 'singing' as 'making a Joyful Noise unto the Lord'...
Which is a great instruction for congregations. The Biblical instruction for those leading is to play skilfully. I am including voice here as an instrument.
From John Wesley's "Directions for Singing" (1761):
Sing lustily and with good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, than when you sung the songs of Satan.
Sing modestly. Do not bawl, so as to be heard above or distinct from the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear melodious sound.
Sing in Time: whatever time is sung, be sure to keep with it. Do not run before nor stay behind it; but attend closely to the leading voices, and move therewith as exactly as you can. And take care you sing not too slow. This drawling way naturally steals on all who are lazy; and it is high time to drive it out from among us, and sing all our tunes just as quick as we did at first.
There is more, but the high point comes at the end: "Sing spiritually".
Comments
I appreciate that the cathedral context is different to any I've ever been in but, personally, I would find it extremely difficult to work in a situation where the music had been chosen by others, well in advance of my sermon prepatation, and with little or no consultation. Of course things may not actually be like that - but, if they are, then there would be an inherent tension between clergy and musicians, however excellent both might be.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can comment.
Music is chosen by the music committee and or the precentor, who in an English cathedral is usually a clergy member of the Chapter. So as preacher you would have no input unless you were part of the committee. Cathedral foundations are self sustaining and self propelling, they don't usually rely on ad hoc decisions
I think there is a tradition of greater independence in Anglican churches with strong traditional music programs - something that can cause conflict if the clergy and the music director are not on the same page about their respective roles. The idea being that if the parish is going to hire a talented and highly trained musician they need to give them some latitude and independence in the details of how the music program is to be run on week-to-week basis.
With all due respect - rubbish. Cathedral music can sometimes be poorly performed, poorly chosen and poorly received. Not every cathedral service shows 'unswerving excellence', any more than every parish choir/praise band/soloist can be excellent every time.
Bear in mind also that in a cathedral setting, we are working with a lectionary that has all the readings for every Sunday Eucharist defined in a 3-year cycle. (Oh and morning and evening prayer and daily Eucharists too, but that works on a different cycle with which I'm less familiar). So it's well known, and well in advance, what the readings for a particular week are going to be. And therefore the starting point for the sermon. Heck, I could (probably) work out now what the readings would be on a particular Sunday three years from now if pushed (assuming no little local variations or moved feasts).
Also, if the choir are going to sing new music and expand the repertoire, you need to start rehearsing it a number of weeks in advance. Depending on the level of difficulty, we can be starting to learn new anthems/settings etc well over a month before they're scheduled into the music list. We can do that knowing what the readings will be, but do you plan your sermon that far in advance? And I should add that in order for the choir to start learning 4-6weeks in advance, the organist will already have needed to learn the part...
Again, time scale (for us) comes into play here. We have to have the 2 sets of service orders drafted, approved and proof-read for printing on Thursday (so there is a day in which to remedy things if the printer throws a wobbly. A not infrequent occurrence). And pre-COVID this would mean somewhere probably upward of 300 service books weekly (includes all hymns, music for all congregational sung parts). More if there are for example baptisms. So it all pretty much needs to be there in principle early in the week, and it's fair bit of work to lay it all out. And judging from the social media feed of clergy, sermon preparation is a Fri/Sat before the Sunday job. After everything has been printed.
Horses for courses I guess.
Not the same preacher every week, and agreed, not all.
I would start my service preparation by Monday (or even slightly earlier) and hope to have drawn up a long-list of hymns by Monday evening which I would then email to my organist for discussion. He would reply with comments and other suggestions and this to-and-fro would continue for a couple of days. Sometimes there would be an email glitch and I'd receive a panicky phone call on Wednesday evening: "You haven't sent me any hymns!" Here we sadly don't have live music but I still need to prepare any A/V and hymnsheets, and inform the operators of the Magic Music Machine, in advance.
I've always aimed to take Saturday as my day off so that my wife, who worked full-time, and I could have time together. Service preparation only becomes last minute due to holidays, illness or other force majeur, or on the very rare occasions when it becomes imperative to make a Christian comment on a major news event that has broken towards the end of the week.
There’s a well-documented difficult dynamic in an organisation with a sub-group or groups (or even an individual) with a particular expertise. The groups quite naturally have a proper commitment to the standards of their area of expertise. The problem comes when a group’s commitment to those standards is out of sync with the wider aims of the organisation as a whole.
It is described by Charles Handy in Understanding Voluntary Organisations in a section which could have been written with the classic issues of church musicians in mind.
In parish churches, if an organist and a clergyman are around one another long enough, and don't have enormous egos, they get the hang of each other. I think my current organist and I have about gotten one another trained in that we have very few conflicts about music, however, that may be because I favour consistency over innovation. Most services are BCP, though some come out of the Lent-Holy Week-Easter supplement toned down to the point where they are acceptable to a conservative, Protestant, MOTR parish.
The usual drill here is that hymns are chosen Sunday evening after the evening service and dinner. If I fail to do this the whole week goes out of whack, for some reason. Sermons are sketched out and the bulletin put together on Tuesday. Bulletins are not a big job as we use books, the main function of the bulletin is to stop me having to announce everything. Wednesday and Thursday I can get on with non-Sunday related stuff. The sermons are written out in full and edited on Friday and Saturday.
I don't doubt that this can be a problem. On the other hand I've also seen parish priests who seem to regard a staff member or volunteer with any kind of competence in an area outside their personal competence as a threat to their authority.
At our shack, the priest and the choir director would meet every ~6 weeks or so, to choose the music for the period starting in ~6 weeks time. This then gave the choir time to rehearse the selected anthems. Hymns were generally selected in the same meeting.
Managing people who have skills that you don't have, and perhaps don't really understand, is a talent in itself. I've met lots of managers that can't do that - this isn't by any means a problem limited to the priesthood.
/tangent
I used to choose hymns weeks ahead, but the present organist just likes to get things week by week. We are his side gig, so he prefers the low stress approach. Organist in the last church liked to get a month at a time, so I duly obliged. I have some musical training - thankfully enough to know when I am out of my depth - so I have always been able to work fairly well with musicians. I have have great relationships with the two permanent deacons I have worked with because we both have distinct ministries. However, I do tend to be brutal on know-it-all, newbie priests who won't take a hint - especially the ones who take 'we don't do that here' as an invitation to defy the rector and engage in guerilla liturgics when I am out-of-town. They have not worked out at that stage that the pissed off churchwarden will email the Rector even though he is on vacation.
They work on the Principle of Appropriateness, so that at least 2 or 3 of the 4 (usually) hymns tie in with the readings. We have a default hymnbook, but fellow-Reader also has access to other sources, and provides a laminated card with the words if a hymn from one of those sources is to be sung. He is most careful to ensure that all is properly covered by our CCLI licence.
FInC is rather partial to metrical Glorias and Lord's Prayers, so every so often we might have one or other of these in addition to the hymns. Some are, shall we say, more acceptable/singable than others!
I would no more expect the priest to chose hymns than he would want me to pick the topic of his homily. Different ministries.
You are probably not a purist, then. My two experiments with letting the organist pick the hymns without input from me have both ended in congregational rebellions, as both organists were prone to picking hymns that were popular around 1870, and have not been heard since 1939. In the case of one of the organists this was a bit of a surprise because she was born 1955-ish, and the other had been an organ scholar somewhere decent - SMVPH, IIRC - but both were musical and liturgical purists, which led to some unfortunate results.
Not a purist at all. Just as happy playing foursquare Victorian SATB hymn as jamming along with something modern. I have two tests, firstly does it fit the theme of the day, secondly will our congregation want to sing it.
I have a third - are the congregation capable of singing it.
Yes thats there too. Not a big fan of concertised liturgy.
It’s something I encounter at least as often in lay people, both Anglican and other, who may enjoy the music, but don’t find attendance at choral evensong feels like worship to them. They express feeling shut out from participating.
I agree that in some cases it’s a manifestation of clericalism - but far from always.
Although Ripon is not exactly what I am talking about, but the Parish Eucharist was definitely a parish function sung to a congregational setting (Merbeck when first moved there!) and the hymns did not stray too far off the parochial beaten path. The only high brow choir pieces were the offertory anthem, and usually a motet during communion. The congregation for that service was easily two hundred. Matins and Evensong on Sundays were of the full choral variety with a smaller, but still decent sized, congregation. In those days, Choral Eucharists seemed to confined to major feats in term time, though that has changed in recent years.
The main Sunday Eucharist*, however, has a congregation of 250+, with numerous young families - like a MOTR parish church, only somewhat bigger than many, IYSWIM.
I know of no plans here to revamp the music etc. etc., and I expect Choral Evensong will reappear in due course, but I can quite understand some places seizing the opportunity of lockdown to 'take stock'. I wouldn't be surprised if Sunday Choral Mattins gave up the ghost, though, and wasn't reinstated.
(*Pre-lockdown, of course. They are currently holding 2 Sunday morning Eucharists - 930am and 1130am - with limited numbers at each, to take account of social-distancing.)
On a purely personal note, and possibly courting martyrdom, I find Choral Evensong only slightly less tedious than Choral Mattins...
I'll get me Prayer Book...
Not necessarily. I've seen more than one occasion where it became clear at the point of singing that while for some values the congregation had "sung" the hymn an objective observer would conclude that they could not, in fact, sing it.
Come the service, not only the congregation but also the organist didn't know two of the hymns. Of course, it was All My Fault ...
Talk about YMMV! Choral Mattins, or in a parish church - sung Mattins, is probably my favourite service. I am a lot less keen on Choral Eucharists which seem to drag on and on and on, especially when the setting is something long winded and complex.
What constitutes singing is always up for grabs.
We refer to our 'singing' as 'making a Joyful Noise unto the Lord'...
Indeed. Singing and sing well are two different things, I think.
Which is a great instruction for congregations. The Biblical instruction for those leading is to play skilfully. I am including voice here as an instrument.
Sing lustily and with good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, than when you sung the songs of Satan.
Sing modestly. Do not bawl, so as to be heard above or distinct from the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear melodious sound.
Sing in Time: whatever time is sung, be sure to keep with it. Do not run before nor stay behind it; but attend closely to the leading voices, and move therewith as exactly as you can. And take care you sing not too slow. This drawling way naturally steals on all who are lazy; and it is high time to drive it out from among us, and sing all our tunes just as quick as we did at first.
There is more, but the high point comes at the end: "Sing spiritually".