Exam grades "re-adjustment"

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  • Is the university entrance as tied to specific final/qualifying exams in the rest of Europe as it is in the UK? It isn't where I live.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate

    This is not quite right. I don't know if delaying everything for a year is the right approach but it is certainly practicable.

    Imagine a 3 year degree in Shipoffoolsology* at Uxbridge University. Every year has approximately 50 students so the undergraduate body is 150. If we had no 2020 intake, then for 20/21 there would be 100 students in total. A loss of income for the uni that needs covering has to be considered. In 2021, the intake is 100 students instead of the usual 50 but because there is an empty 2nd year, this is manageable- ultimately instead of running SOF20x courses, you run two streams of SOF10x course if needed. So for 21/22, the undergraduate body is back to 150. In 22/23 it's the second year that poses the same problem but there is no 3rd year. 2023/24 is the year where you end up with a larger student body at 200 undergraduates. So you have 3 years to plan and prepare.

    AFZ

    Your example assumes an equal distribution of students across all 3 years. That may perhaps be right for the interesting course you describe bu certainly does not fit my experience of first year being the time to really sort students out. It also assumes that academic staff teach across all 3 years, whereas it's quite possible* that some will only teach courses offered in 2nd and 3rd years.

    *My experience is very likely
  • not speculate here on whether a degree in Shipoffoolsology would be a BSc or a BA... although I reckon we might have fun choosing the faculty. Presumably lectures would take place in the Aligator Lecture Theatre.

    I suspect it would be a BS :wink:
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Is the university entrance as tied to specific final/qualifying exams in the rest of Europe as it is in the UK? It isn't where I live.

    The question isn't so much final exams, as who does the assessments.

    In the US, high school courses are assessed by the school. You get an A, because your teacher said so. There are AP classes, which also have an exam (set nationally by the "College Board" company), and many institutions used to insist on ACT / SAT scores (again, standard national tests from two different organizations that provide a way of comparing kids from different schools.) There's a bit of a trend against these scores now - a lot of places are recognizing that they select for people who have a lot of test coaching, rather than the best students.

    In the UK, GCSEs and A-levels are public exams. Over the years, some have included greater or lesser amounts of coursework - it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing final. Nobody in the UK gives the remotest part of a squeaky wet fart about what scores your teacher gave you, or how many gold stars you got.

    Is Canada a bit like the US?
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Your example assumes an equal distribution of students across all 3 years. That may perhaps be right for the interesting course you describe bu certainly does not fit my experience of first year being the time to really sort students out.

    British universities go to extraordinary lengths to avoid having to fail someone, because there are financial penalties attached. Sure - some students quit, for various reasons, but at most institutions, it's a rather small number.
  • Gee D wrote: »

    This is not quite right. I don't know if delaying everything for a year is the right approach but it is certainly practicable.

    Imagine a 3 year degree in Shipoffoolsology* at Uxbridge University. Every year has approximately 50 students so the undergraduate body is 150. If we had no 2020 intake, then for 20/21 there would be 100 students in total. A loss of income for the uni that needs covering has to be considered. In 2021, the intake is 100 students instead of the usual 50 but because there is an empty 2nd year, this is manageable- ultimately instead of running SOF20x courses, you run two streams of SOF10x course if needed. So for 21/22, the undergraduate body is back to 150. In 22/23 it's the second year that poses the same problem but there is no 3rd year. 2023/24 is the year where you end up with a larger student body at 200 undergraduates. So you have 3 years to plan and prepare.

    AFZ

    Your example assumes an equal distribution of students across all 3 years. That may perhaps be right for the interesting course you describe bu certainly does not fit my experience of first year being the time to really sort students out. It also assumes that academic staff teach across all 3 years, whereas it's quite possible* that some will only teach courses offered in 2nd and 3rd years.

    *My experience is very likely

    Of course the example is a simplification for the sake of the argument. However, I don't think that undermines the main point. Universities would have a year to plan how to run the double first year. In some cases it would just mean using a bigger lecture theatre. Scientific practicals would be more challenging but we were split into groups for the practicals anyway... The biggest challenge would be in 3 years time and thus there is time to plan accordingly.

    My reservations about delaying everything by a year are to do with the effects on the students themselves, the acceptability at a society level etc. I suspect that some students would just give up on education, rather than spend another year at sixth-form. There are several factors to be weighed here - it may be the better option, it may not. But I don't believe university capacity is really a factor.

    AFZ
  • And obviously, this is not in the context of everything otherwise being the same as normal.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Maybe so.


    Of course the example is a simplification for the sake of the argument. However, I don't think that undermines the main point. Universities would have a year to plan how to run the double first year. In some cases it would just mean using a bigger lecture theatre. Scientific practicals would be more challenging but we were split into groups for the practicals anyway... The biggest challenge would be in 3 years time and thus there is time to plan accordingly.
    AFZ

    Perhaps there is a larger lecture theatre available, but what about tutorials and practicals?
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »

    Your example assumes an equal distribution of students across all 3 years. That may perhaps be right for the interesting course you describe bu certainly does not fit my experience of first year being the time to really sort students out.
    It's also the most general. 2nd year students decide between whether they specialise in hvn, purg, ecck&kerg or hell.
    (Also the big 3rd year correspond to diminished PhD intake)

    Regardless at least both of you seem to have put more thought into it than the f'wits are.

    I know it's what they want, but at what point, do we just do as the old non conformists and set up our own things.
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Gee D wrote: »
    Maybe so.


    Of course the example is a simplification for the sake of the argument. However, I don't think that undermines the main point. Universities would have a year to plan how to run the double first year. In some cases it would just mean using a bigger lecture theatre. Scientific practicals would be more challenging but we were split into groups for the practicals anyway... The biggest challenge would be in 3 years time and thus there is time to plan accordingly.
    AFZ

    Perhaps there is a larger lecture theatre available, but what about tutorials and practicals?

    Indeed. Where larger lecture theatres are not available, we may be asking academic staff to give the same lecture twice. Lecturers that are paid per hour of teaching time, I suspect would be quite happy, given that, as you know, an hour of teaching time usually corresponds to 3 hours of actual work. As you say, tutorials would need to be doubled up potentially but I don't believe it wouldn't be possible to plan such courses with a year's notice.

    @jay_emm. Thank you. This is the real point isn't it? The government continues to fail at governing. OTOH, I am sure they have an algorithm that tells them they're doing fantastically well....

    AFZ

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    And given the commencement of specialities in 2nd year, less likely that those lecturing/tutoring in 2nd and 3rd years would be able to take on a 1st year course.

    Of course, I'm 20,000 km away and although a recipient of a tertiary education have never tried to provide any to another
  • Ofqual are already backtracking on the information given out yesterday about appeals https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53795831
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Perhaps there is a larger lecture theatre available, but what about tutorials and practicals?

    Indeed. Where larger lecture theatres are not available, we may be asking academic staff to give the same lecture twice. Lecturers that are paid per hour of teaching time, I suspect would be quite happy, given that, as you know, an hour of teaching time usually corresponds to 3 hours of actual work. As you say, tutorials would need to be doubled up potentially but I don't believe it wouldn't be possible to plan such courses with a year's notice.
    Delivering lectures is only one part of the work load for a course and paying for the delivery of these isn't simple (possibly easier for someone employed on a contract that includes delivering lecture courses in the dept they work in). The course my head of group gives, which I will be taking up a few lectures for, is paid as a flat fee for the course - in the first years of doing it, that was at a loss because of the time taken to prepare lectures and exams, now that most of the lectures get tweaked (if that) each year and exam questions get recycled it's on break even. We gain a bit from the occasional project student with some associated fees (and, often those students contribute to something we can publish - with those students as co-authors of the paper, of course). Given each lecture twice would push us back into it costing more to deliver than we get from the School of Physics.

    But, the question of lecture theatres is disappearing for the next year or two. We're moving to recording the lectures in 15-20min chunks that the students can view at home, with some short assessed exercises during the semester to allow feedback to make sure the students are assimilating the material in the lectures. The way the course has always been organised has included a critical essay - a literature search and discussion of the current state of knowledge on a subject of the students choice that relate (in some manner) to the environment and nuclear physics - with 25% of the final grade based on that essay and an oral presentation of it, the remaining 75% being the final exam (which this year was re-written at the last minute to be conducted at home, open-book). It looks like the critical essay will be at least 50% this year, with the remainder mostly the new course work & possibly an open-book exam at the end. In this model more students means more course work to be assessed, more critical essays to be marked and more student presentations to schedule and mark. On top of re-working the lecture material from 1hr lectures to shorter chunks, and getting them recorded properly, and writing a lot of new simple questions for ongoing assessment of how well students have understood the material, which is a one-off cost for each year irrespective of how many students sit the course.
  • As well as larger lecture halls etc, where would the students live?
  • The other practical problem for mass student deferral is what will happen to them for a year? If universities can start courses in January/February, people could go straight after autumn exam results. If not, they will be sitting around for a year, as there won't be enough jobs to go round, and the foreign travel option is right out. (I think that relatively few students have a gap year normally.)

    Plus the small point that they won't be in full time education, so as well as Child Benefit stopping for them, anyone with a single parent will suddenly make the household liable for an extra 25% Council Tax, and the adult benefits system will be swamped with all their applications for the pittance actually paid to young adults.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    As well as larger lecture halls etc, where would the students live?
    In afz version, the young first years live in the normal first year flats, and the old first years live in the normal second year flats.
    So again it's only in their third year that it's a problem.

    As well as the other questions you also have the question if uni progressing as pseudo normal (minus the first year) is the realistic breakpoint (in reduced employment keeping students in study must have some attractions)
    If uni is also fully repeating a year, afzs plan doesn't work.
  • As well as larger lecture halls etc, where would the students live?

    The 'bulge' is not for 3 years...
    Pendragon wrote: »
    The other practical problem for mass student deferral is what will happen to them for a year? If universities can start courses in January/February, people could go straight after autumn exam results. If not, they will be sitting around for a year, as there won't be enough jobs to go round, and the foreign travel option is right out. (I think that relatively few students have a gap year normally.)

    Plus the small point that they won't be in full time education, so as well as Child Benefit stopping for them, anyone with a single parent will suddenly make the household liable for an extra 25% Council Tax, and the adult benefits system will be swamped with all their applications for the pittance actually paid to young adults.

    That I think is the bigger problem.
  • There is a hidden problem looming anyway; wrt the freshers who will be starting university this year and will be far less prepared for it than they would be otherwise.
  • This year, at least for starting in the autumn, university hall capacity may be limited by requirements to maintain social distancing - at the very least meal times will need to be extended to reduce the number of students in the dining hall at any one time. So, accommodation could be a problem if the universities are looking at maintaining a normal intake of students.
  • As well as larger lecture halls etc, where would the students live?

    The 'bulge' is not for 3 years...
    Pendragon wrote: »
    The other practical problem for mass student deferral is what will happen to them for a year? If universities can start courses in January/February, people could go straight after autumn exam results. If not, they will be sitting around for a year, as there won't be enough jobs to go round, and the foreign travel option is right out. (I think that relatively few students have a gap year normally.)

    Plus the small point that they won't be in full time education, so as well as Child Benefit stopping for them, anyone with a single parent will suddenly make the household liable for an extra 25% Council Tax, and the adult benefits system will be swamped with all their applications for the pittance actually paid to young adults.

    That I think is the bigger problem.

    I think that is a problem the government can solve with a temporary change to benefit restrictions.
  • I heard about this - bloody infuriating.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    This year, at least for starting in the autumn, university hall capacity may be limited by requirements to maintain social distancing - at the very least meal times will need to be extended to reduce the number of students in the dining hall at any one time. So, accommodation could be a problem if the universities are looking at maintaining a normal intake of students.

    Many university halls don’t provide universal meals, certainly at York where my older son goes it is the exception and expensive and most students self cater. He says there is private catering within the university but most students cook their own.
  • There is a hidden problem looming anyway; wrt the freshers who will be starting university this year and will be far less prepared for it than they would be otherwise.
    And, universities far less prepared to welcome them than normal - we'll still be working on how to provide socially-distanced learning and assessment when the freshers arrive (I'd expect many courses to be getting the online material ready at no more than a week ahead of when it's needed). Then, there are all the problems about giving library tours in smaller groups (which takes much more time), the local bookshops selling text books while keeping number of students in the shop below the maximum that can be managed, how you run freshers fair, enforcing occupancy restrictions on student bars, how student societies function ....
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    The university my daughter attends (just entering third year) has sensibly advertised part-time work for existing students to work with tutors and admin staff in resolving some of these issues; she was one of the successful applicants, mainly as she’s had some major health issues over the past 6 years and already knows a lot about how to keep up with studies when you’re not always able to attend classes and practicals with other students. She also knows considerably more about the university’s complex welfare arrangements than her tutors do.
  • Ofqual are already backtracking on the information given out yesterday about appeals https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53795831

    Astonishing that they are already revising their previous advice. It's not even clear what they mean, that mocks are going to be ignored, or teacher assessments partially accepted? They have had 5 months to prepare for this. We know that this govt is shambolic, but this is chaos. And the GCSE results to follow, presumably after going through the algorithm mincing machine.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    In France, where passing the Baccalaureat gives right of entry to university, I understand that 99.5% of students passed, based on continuous assessment of their first two terms‘ work, as compared to 77.7% last year. Universities have therefore had to provide many additional places.
  • A sign seen on one of the demonstrations today, "no Etonians were harmed in the making of this algorithm".
  • Has it been mentioned here that students with disabilities often don't get their 'reasonable adjustment ' for mocks, and hence their grades are likely to be a poor indicator of ability.

    I wonder if the algorithm accounts for this, I can't really imagine how it could....

    Link
  • On another demo, the chant heard, "Boris Johnson's our anchor". But wait, have I misheard?
  • It’s shambolic! Students still don’t know grounds for appeal.
    It’s only going to get worse on Thursday with GCSE results out (far greater number affected).
  • It’s shambolic! Students still don’t know grounds for appeal.
    It’s only going to get worse on Thursday with GCSE results out (far greater number affected).

    Really going for that youth vote aren’t they?!

    If you’re the praying sort, please send a few the Tubblet’s way this Thursday.
  • It’s shambolic! Students still don’t know grounds for appeal.
    It’s only going to get worse on Thursday with GCSE results out (far greater number affected).

    I have a 16 year old; it’s going to be a long week.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Ricardus wrote: »
    So if you just allow the results to stand, then more students will go to the better universities this year than in normal years, but those universities should have the flexibility to allow this.

    That would be fine, if it weren’t for the fact that the government, in its wisdom, decided to impose a student number control (i.e. a maximum number of students we can recruit) on us this year. In theory this was to protect the worse universities from potential failure due to all the better universities over-recruiting UK students to make up for their predicted drop in overseas ones.

    If the government now said: 'Oops, the cap was a silly idea' and removed it, and then just allowed predicted grades to stand, how much of a problem would that be?

    (In itself - ignoring questions of university resources - it doesn't seem that much of a problem if some students go to university who in normal years would be rejected for university. Certainly, it seems much less problematic than putting everyone on hold for a year just to find out who the undeserving are. But my sole expertise in this area is that I once went to university.)
  • Ricardus wrote: »
    If the government now said: 'Oops, the cap was a silly idea' and removed it, and then just allowed predicted grades to stand, how much of a problem would that be?

    (In itself - ignoring questions of university resources - it doesn't seem that much of a problem if some students go to university who in normal years would be rejected for university. Certainly, it seems much less problematic than putting everyone on hold for a year just to find out who the undeserving are. But my sole expertise in this area is that I once went to university.)
    There might be a higher than average number of students who drop out after year one, finding that they're unable to cope with the demands of university. But, there are straight A students who struggle at university, and I've known students who get a good first class degree who then struggle to do a PhD. Exam grades are not always the best indicator of how well someone will cope with the next level of education, and there'll be some students who may now get into university who wouldn't have made the necessary grades under normal circumstances who'll go on to do better than students who would have got better grades.
  • But, there are straight A students who struggle at university,

    *looks at AAAB at A-Level and 2:2 degree*

    *waves*
  • Plus if they don’t go to uni there are not exactly masses of jobs waiting for them, so it would surely make sense to invest in additional training/education if they are motivated to take it - rather than just have them sit on universal credit for a year banking on resits.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    not speculate here on whether a degree in Shipoffoolsology would be a BSc or a BA... although I reckon we might have fun choosing the faculty. Presumably lectures would take place in the Aligator Lecture Theatre.

    I suspect it would be a BS :wink:

    This needs a Heaven thread, I feel 😁
  • Plus if they don’t go to uni there are not exactly masses of jobs waiting for them, so it would surely make sense to invest in additional training/education if they are motivated to take it - rather than just have them sit on universal credit for a year banking on resits.

    Not entirely endorsing the idea, but given the likely schooling gap and the paucity of jobs, an alternative to the deferred entry could be some a variant of foundation courses.
  • Thoughts & prayers with those of you with ‘little ones’ awaiting results.
  • I heard on the grapevine today that the H&S lady has taken a colossal ego-shit over the whole return-to-campus thing - and (more interestingly from my POV) the return-to-lab thing in particular. It looks like the noises from the top are 'even better Covid-friendly educational experiences all round!' and from the H&S lady 'there will be no risk whatsoever of anything dangerous happening anywhere on Campus, and if it does heads (not mine) will roll!'. I need to dig out my 'I am excited to be the meat in your sandwich' T-shirt :smile:
  • The thing that strikes me about this is how far the Tories have fallen. As a party, they used to (even three/four years ago) be much better at reading the room than other parties, by seeing which way the wind was blowing and making it their policy almost before people knew that was what they wanted.

    This natural (if somewhat base) instinct seems to have deserted them completely. By next week they will have alienated an entire cohort of voters, and their parents, and their grandparents, by doing something so obviously and foreseeably unfair that a blue-rosetted donkey could have told them to do anything but what they did. I can only assume there's some sort of competition going on between departments of state as to which minister can fuck up the most spectacularly. Sure, they've got some way to go to beat the Department of Health, but the Department of Education and the Foreign Office are closing fast on the rails.
  • They also used to reorganize fast, and clear up a mess. Not sure if they are arrogant or clueless now.
  • They also used to reorganize fast, and clear up a mess. Not sure if they are arrogant or clueless now.

    Why not both?
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    edited August 2020
    It's strange now to think that my experience of applying is now out of date, and that the four interviews I had from 6 applications (Cambridge, UCL, Royal Holloway & Lancaster interviewed, Edinburgh and Durham did not) for Maths/Physics courses are no longer the norm.

    I don’t know how long ago you started uni, but there are considerably more freshers these days than even a decade ago. My university’s intake target (I.e. the maximum the government would allow us) was over 6,000.
    Gee D wrote: »
    In some cases it would just mean using a bigger lecture theatre.

    Assuming such are available. We’re in the middle of a massive building project because we don’t have enough theatres big enough for our normal population, never mind for a suddenly-doubled one.

    Edit to add: and of course that building project has been the first thing cancelled in response to the predicted loss of income next year...
  • They have had 5 months to prepare for this.

    False. Back in March the assumption was that it would all be over in time for exams to go ahead.
  • Ricardus wrote: »
    Ricardus wrote: »
    So if you just allow the results to stand, then more students will go to the better univwersities this year than in normal years, but those universities should have the flexibility to allow this.

    That would be fine, if it weren’t for the fact that the government, in its wisdom, decided to impose a student number control (i.e. a maximum number of students we can recruit) on us this year. In theory this was to protect the worse universities from potential failure due to all the better universities over-recruiting UK students to make up for their predicted drop in overseas ones.

    If the government now said: 'Oops, the cap was a silly idea' and removed it, and then just allowed predicted grades to stand, how much of a problem would that be?

    Now that confirmation and clearing has finished, massive. You’d suddenly have a whole bunch of new applicants on the market, which is fine, but for those unis who want to maintain their average entry grades* few of them would be good enough. But there would be good enough students in lesser units who would suddenly be in a position of being able to ditch the uni they’ve already agreed to go to in favour of a better one.

    And that’s without considering those students who were rejected based on their allocated grades but who would now have achieved the grades they were offered.

    It would be chaos. You’d effectively be starting the whole confirmation and clearing process again, but with no time to plan or prepare.

    .

    *= average entry grades are one of the factors that contribute to league table position.
  • They have had 5 months to prepare for this.

    False. Back in March the assumption was that it would all be over in time for exams to go ahead.

    They should have asked me. I thought it would take till July to flatten the curve.
  • They have had 5 months to prepare for this.

    False. Back in March the assumption was that it would all be over in time for exams to go ahead.

    Why ? Even at the beginning of the pandemic we were being told best case scenario for a vaccine was 18 months.
  • They have had 5 months to prepare for this.

    False. Back in March the assumption was that it would all be over in time for exams to go ahead.

    If you google "when were exams cancelled" it turns up the result of March 18. So I call bullshit on this, and restate the winged serpent's quote: they have had five months to prepare for this.
  • It's strange now to think that my experience of applying is now out of date, and that the four interviews I had from 6 applications (Cambridge, UCL, Royal Holloway & Lancaster interviewed, Edinburgh and Durham did not) for Maths/Physics courses are no longer the norm.

    I don’t know how long ago you started uni, but there are considerably more freshers these days than even a decade ago. My university’s intake target (I.e. the maximum the government would allow us) was over 6,000.

    Terrifyingly it's 18 years ago this Autumn. Looks like a 40% increase in applications across the sector since I enrolled, though I doubt that is reflected in my particular field.
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