In general* in smaller communities where ‘everybody knows everybody’ and the social structure of the community is strongly linked to locality, people will often turn up for a funeral of a neighbour, acquaintance, or fellow member of Rotary, Inner Wheel, golf club etc. For those in employment this will be affected by working hours etc. IME. when someone has been in a home, or receiving care in their own home, it’s not uncommon for one or two carers to attend as well.
(*I’m sure there will be places where this is not true.)
Funeral services are open to all. Like marriage services. If there is some kind of do after then that tends to be a limited number or invited people.
Sorry Colin I still disagree with you. Many people do things out of a sense of duty. Many people work in jobs they don’t like. Doing the right think through gritted teeth if necessary.
I think there is also the idea of showing the love of Jesus. Doing things for people because Jesus asks us to in the command ove your neighbour. And I will make it clear that just because you are doing it to show Jesus’ love doesn’t mean it is fulfilling and gives you warm feelings.
I can only hope that when @Colin Smith gets old, he doesn't need anyone to change his nappies for him. By his own logic, he should be left to wallow in his excrement.
People don't do things because they are right. The do things that are right because they get satisfaction from doing the right thing or because they don't want to live with knowing they did the wrong thing. That's part of being a social animal. We do the right thing and we get a dose of dopamine which makes us feel good. It's just evolution and chemistry,
That would be a category error if it were true. To say people do the right thing because they get satisfaction from it, is to say that they get satisfaction because they do the right thing, which is to say, they do it because it was the right thing.
But in general unless you're pretty saintly, trying to do the right thing largely leaves one unsure whether one actually did the right thing or not. If you're consistently getting warm glows from doing the right thing then either you're a saint or you're morally smug and self-righteous.
Funeral services are open to all. Like marriage services. If there is some kind of do after then that tends to be a limited number or invited people.
Sorry Colin I still disagree with you. Many people do things out of a sense of duty. Many people work in jobs they don’t like. Doing the right think through gritted teeth if necessary.
I think there is also the idea of showing the love of Jesus. Doing things for people because Jesus asks us to in the command ove your neighbour. And I will make it clear that just because you are doing it to show Jesus’ love doesn’t mean it is fulfilling and gives you warm feelings.
So you are saying the right thing is to do with duty, plus loving your neighbour. And the gritted teeth thing. It's confusing for a follower of the plumed serpent. How about doing what's easy? Is that bad?
Funeral services are open to all. Like marriage services. If there is some kind of do after then that tends to be a limited number or invited people.
Sorry Colin I still disagree with you. Many people do things out of a sense of duty. Many people work in jobs they don’t like. Doing the right think through gritted teeth if necessary.
I think there is also the idea of showing the love of Jesus. Doing things for people because Jesus asks us to in the command ove your neighbour. And I will make it clear that just because you are doing it to show Jesus’ love doesn’t mean it is fulfilling and gives you warm feelings.
BIB> I think they are either fools to do so or making the sacrifice for something else they value. To me, funerals and weddings are private affairs and I would be a gate-crasher.
I can only hope that when @Colin Smith gets old, he doesn't need anyone to change his nappies for him. By his own logic, he should be left to wallow in his excrement.
I hope to die before getting to that stage. But failing that I hope my nappy-changer is well-paid.
I can only hope that when @Colin Smith gets old, he doesn't need anyone to change his nappies for him. By his own logic, he should be left to wallow in his excrement.
I hope to die before getting to that stage.
Me too. Growing so decrepit that you need someone to change your nappies for you feels - to me - like the sort of problem that is best solved by spending some time in the library with a bottle of whisky and a loaded pistol.
I've attended perhaps half a dozen funerals since living here, of folk known to me or whose close relatives are known to me and I go to offer them moral support.
I think this quite neatly illustrates the different between @Arethosemyfeet's small community, and @Colin Smith's larger anonymous one.
I've attended perhaps half a dozen funerals since living here, of folk known to me or whose close relatives are known to me and I go to offer them moral support.
I think this quite neatly illustrates the different between @Arethosemyfeet's small community, and @Colin Smith's larger anonymous one.
Precisely. If you've lived for a long time* in a small and stable community you will have built up connections with many people, not least because small communities depend on mutual cooperation far more than large communities which are better supported by public services. If, on the other hand, you've lived a peripatetic life often within larger communities whose population is also peripatetic then you won't build those connections. Even then it depends on whether you are gregarious and involved in lots of social organisations, such as the church, societies, clubs, and so on.
Now that could be developed into a discussion on the ideal form of society to live in but that's a whole other issue.
*Based on my experiences "long time" means more than five years.
There were about 85 people at my mother's funeral at a church she had attended for almost 50 years. A little over half would have been parishioners or former parishioners.
There were about 85 people at my mother's funeral at a church she had attended for almost 50 years. A little over half would have been parishioners or former parishioners.
Purely for comparison, there were 10 at my mother's funeral: 6 were family members and 4 were family friends. My mother was non-religious and the ceremony was secular. There were 9* attendees at my maternal grandfather's funeral: all were family members. Both my mother and grandfather had been in a care home for many years before they died.
*It's just possible there was an additional attendee from the care home but memory fails me.
I can only hope that when @Colin Smith gets old, he doesn't need anyone to change his nappies for him. By his own logic, he should be left to wallow in his excrement.
I hope to die before getting to that stage.
Me too. Growing so decrepit that you need someone to change your nappies for you feels - to me - like the sort of problem that is best solved by spending some time in the library with a bottle of whisky and a loaded pistol.
Do you feel incontinent disabled people should just kill themselves themselves then ?
I think, Colin, that most don’t want to - because it possible that disabled life is worth living.
I don't disagree. The point isn't what one would do oneself but whether people have the right to make their own choice. One can wholeheartedly approve of someone's right to choose without approving of their choice.
And whether or not a disabled individual regards their life as worth living depends very much on their individual values and priorities. Someone whose life has been built around sport and physical pursuits would find the loss of limbs or paralysis particularity hard to bear. Someone whose life revolves around music would find deafness particularly hard to bear.
I'm not about to tell either of them what they should do or how they should manage their disability. That's up to them. They should be given a range of options and examples of people living with their disability and then supported in whatever decision they make.
So every musician who goes deaf should be like Beethoven?
It is very hard not to feel that you are dictating what other people should choose based on your values and failing to consider that other people's values are just as valid for them and might lead them to choose something other.
I am not advocating suicide should be illegal. But I am challenging the casual assumption that disability is intolerable, unbearable and impossible to live a good life with.
I am not advocating suicide should be illegal. But I am challenging the casual assumption that disability is intolerable, unbearable and impossible to live a good life with.
Who is making that assumption? Who gets to decide what a good life is, other than the person whose life it happens to be?
Yes, the person can be and should be shown ways of living with their disability and given examples of people who are living life as fully as possible with it, but there's no shame, no sense of failure, in anyone deciding that it isn't for them.
Weddings and funerals are open under law. They are legal ceremonies. The celebrations after are closed but the actual event is open to anyone. Not every one will go. Most people don’t just turn up to either but legally they can
Funeral services are open to all. Like marriage services. If there is some kind of do after then that tends to be a limited number or invited people.
Sorry Colin I still disagree with you. Many people do things out of a sense of duty. Many people work in jobs they don’t like. Doing the right think through gritted teeth if necessary.
I think there is also the idea of showing the love of Jesus. Doing things for people because Jesus asks us to in the command ove your neighbour. And I will make it clear that just because you are doing it to show Jesus’ love doesn’t mean it is fulfilling and gives you warm feelings.
BIB> I think they are either fools to do so or making the sacrifice for something else they value. To me, funerals and weddings are private affairs and I would be a gate-crasher.
Sorry to double post.
However it happens so it is not all about warm fuzzies or a sense of achievement l.
Weddings and funerals are open under law. They are legal ceremonies. The celebrations after are closed but the actual event is open to anyone. Not every one will go. Most people don’t just turn up to either but legally they can
Traditionally I think they were seen as part of the glue that holds society together. Nowadays I think they are seen, at least by many in the UK, as private invitation only events.
Nope. I am assuming that for some people it will be the case. As regards what I said about my own old age, it's pure speculation. I've had relatives die compos mentis and relatives who've lingered for years with various degrees of dementia in nursing home. I had a friend die of melanoma in a hospice.
I know which I'd prefer.
Would I have the bravery to make a choice, or the ability and means to do so, or know when it's the right time? How do I know?
I can only hope that when @Colin Smith gets old, he doesn't need anyone to change his nappies for him. By his own logic, he should be left to wallow in his excrement.
I hope to die before getting to that stage.
Me too. Growing so decrepit that you need someone to change your nappies for you feels - to me - like the sort of problem that is best solved by spending some time in the library with a bottle of whisky and a loaded pistol.
Do you feel incontinent disabled people should just kill themselves themselves then ?
Getting from what @Marvin the Martian said to what you’re asking is a bit of a leap. The Who sang about hoping they died before they get old. Are you going to take them to task as well?
I can only hope that when @Colin Smith gets old, he doesn't need anyone to change his nappies for him. By his own logic, he should be left to wallow in his excrement.
I hope to die before getting to that stage.
Me too. Growing so decrepit that you need someone to change your nappies for you feels - to me - like the sort of problem that is best solved by spending some time in the library with a bottle of whisky and a loaded pistol.
Do you feel incontinent disabled people should just kill themselves themselves then ?
Nope, just that that’s how I personally feel about how I would personally feel were I personally in that position. Independence is incredibly important to me psychologically, such that even the thought of losing it in such a permanent and catastrophic way is enough to bring on the angst.
One of the many things that is wierd about this is how less than a hundred years ago it was a massive sign of status to have someone to assist you to bathe and dress.
I disagree. People don't do things because they are right. The do things that are right because they get satisfaction from doing the right thing or because they don't want to live with knowing they did the wrong thing. That's part of being a social animal. We do the right thing and we get a dose of dopamine which makes us feel good. It's just evolution and chemistry,
I think that's why you do things, and you're assuming everyone else is like you. In my experience, this is not why most people do things like go to funerals. They go because, to some degree, they care and they think it matters as an indication of caring.
Meanwhile, the only time I've ever heard of an "invitation" to a funeral (other than now, in the Time of COVID when attendance must be limited*), is when the graveside service will be private/family only. Under those circumstances, close friends and other "like family" people might be "invited."
Otherwise funerals are generally made publicly known, and word is passed around. And similar to what @Lamb Chopped said, here (the American South), attending the visitation and/or funeral of friends, co-workers, or anyone else you knew is very common.
*Here, most funeral services are being delayed, so that people can attend.
One of the many things that is wierd about this is how less than a hundred years ago it was a massive sign of status to have someone to assist you to bathe and dress.
In the 1920s or later? Really?
We’re not talking about having staff around the house to do the more unpleasant or boring jobs for me here, and we’re not talking about having a bit of assistance in the bathroom. We’re talking about me having broken down to such an extent that I literally can’t do even the most basic or private of tasks for myself. The implications for what my life would look like under such circumstances are both obvious, and hideous to me.
Yeah having a valet, body servant, or lady’s maid was a thing. (But yes this is a tangent.)
What you are discussing could come about from having essential tremor or arthritis, and prostate trouble. You could well still be playing cricket, or whatever else.
I disagree. People don't do things because they are right. The do things that are right because they get satisfaction from doing the right thing or because they don't want to live with knowing they did the wrong thing. That's part of being a social animal. We do the right thing and we get a dose of dopamine which makes us feel good. It's just evolution and chemistry,
I think that's why you do things, and you're assuming everyone else is like you. In my experience, this is not why most people do things like go to funerals. They go because, to some degree, they care and they think it matters as an indication of caring.
Meanwhile, the only time I've ever heard of an "invitation" to a funeral (other than now, in the Time of COVID when attendance must be limited*), is when the graveside service will be private/family only. Under those circumstances, close friends and other "like family" people might be "invited."
Otherwise funerals are generally made publicly known, and word is passed around. And similar to what @Lamb Chopped said, here (the American South), attending the visitation and/or funeral of friends, co-workers, or anyone else you knew is very common.
*Here, most funeral services are being delayed, so that people can attend.
I can only say that the English South and the American South appear to be very different societies.
Bullshit. People suffer catastrophes every single day. It makes sense for people to consider what they would do in the event of a catastrophe, and we do it all the time.
I am currently somewhat prepared for a catastrophic earthquake because I live in Southern California, and I have given thought to what I would do in various earthquake scenarios. I am prepared to isolate in my apartment for at least two weeks because there is a pandemic. I have thought about what I would do if my hours at work were decreased because of the pandemic, and I've considered my options in the event of losing my job altogether. I've given some thought to how much I would be willing to risk if Trump succeeds in stealing the election: health, life? People make wills that name guardians for their children in the event of their own deaths. People buy long-term care insurance and life insurance; people are required to buy homeowner's insurance and car insurance. People make advance directives for end-of-life medical treatment. People tell their adult children and others what things make life worth living to them: seeing grandchildren, sitting in the sun in the garden, watching baseball games.
Jon Kabat-Zinn's book on mindfulness-based stress reduction isn't called Full Catastrophe Living for nothing.
I know what catastrophizing is. I'd love for the person who wrote that little squib to go tell all those students in the UK having their exam grades re-adjusted that not going to university won't be a catastrophe.
One of the many things that is wierd about this is how less than a hundred years ago it was a massive sign of status to have someone to assist you to bathe and dress.
It's wierd that things change in a hundred years? I didn't have you pegged as quite such a conservative.
One of the many things that is wierd about this is how less than a hundred years ago it was a massive sign of status to have someone to assist you to bathe and dress.
It's wierd that things change in a hundred years? I didn't have you pegged as quite such a conservative.
Things are changing a lot faster than they used to. Personal servants were a thing for millennia, and not just for the highest ranks. One hundred years ago, a family like the one I grew up in (successful business owner) might have had one or two servants to do household tasks as well as personal duties.
I'm more amazed at how many people seem to have forgotten that they have already lived through being so helpless they couldn't wipe their own asses.
Things are changing a lot faster than they used to. Personal servants were a thing for millennia, and not just for the highest ranks. One hundred years ago, a family like the one I grew up in (successful business owner) might have had one or two servants to do household tasks as well as personal duties.
I'm more amazed at how many people seem to have forgotten that they have already lived through being so helpless they couldn't wipe their own asses.
Of course we've forgotten it. I've forgotten almost everything from before the age of five.
Things are changing a lot faster than they used to. Personal servants were a thing for millennia, and not just for the highest ranks. One hundred years ago, a family like the one I grew up in (successful business owner) might have had one or two servants to do household tasks as well as personal duties.
Sure. People are much more expensive now, so now most people don't have servants. That's Baumol's cost disease at work. Also, modern clothes are designed to be put on without assistance, we have labour-saving devices to make housework easier, etc.
Because people (in general) don't have servants, life is designed to make them unnecessary.
I know what catastrophizing is. I'd love for the person who wrote that little squib to go tell all those students in the UK having their exam grades re-adjusted that not going to university won't be a catastrophe.
In the long term they might be right but the last thing you need when you're in the middle of working out what you do next because you've lost your university place because of an algorithm and an incompetent government is some smug git with a PhD telling you that it's not the end of the world.
That whole article just reads like "all things work for good for those that love the Lord" re-worked for a secular age.
Comments
(*I’m sure there will be places where this is not true.)
Sorry Colin I still disagree with you. Many people do things out of a sense of duty. Many people work in jobs they don’t like. Doing the right think through gritted teeth if necessary.
I think there is also the idea of showing the love of Jesus. Doing things for people because Jesus asks us to in the command ove your neighbour. And I will make it clear that just because you are doing it to show Jesus’ love doesn’t mean it is fulfilling and gives you warm feelings.
But in general unless you're pretty saintly, trying to do the right thing largely leaves one unsure whether one actually did the right thing or not. If you're consistently getting warm glows from doing the right thing then either you're a saint or you're morally smug and self-righteous.
So you are saying the right thing is to do with duty, plus loving your neighbour. And the gritted teeth thing. It's confusing for a follower of the plumed serpent. How about doing what's easy? Is that bad?
BIB> I think they are either fools to do so or making the sacrifice for something else they value. To me, funerals and weddings are private affairs and I would be a gate-crasher.
I hope to die before getting to that stage. But failing that I hope my nappy-changer is well-paid.
Me too. Growing so decrepit that you need someone to change your nappies for you feels - to me - like the sort of problem that is best solved by spending some time in the library with a bottle of whisky and a loaded pistol.
I think this quite neatly illustrates the different between @Arethosemyfeet's small community, and @Colin Smith's larger anonymous one.
Precisely. If you've lived for a long time* in a small and stable community you will have built up connections with many people, not least because small communities depend on mutual cooperation far more than large communities which are better supported by public services. If, on the other hand, you've lived a peripatetic life often within larger communities whose population is also peripatetic then you won't build those connections. Even then it depends on whether you are gregarious and involved in lots of social organisations, such as the church, societies, clubs, and so on.
Now that could be developed into a discussion on the ideal form of society to live in but that's a whole other issue.
*Based on my experiences "long time" means more than five years.
Purely for comparison, there were 10 at my mother's funeral: 6 were family members and 4 were family friends. My mother was non-religious and the ceremony was secular. There were 9* attendees at my maternal grandfather's funeral: all were family members. Both my mother and grandfather had been in a care home for many years before they died.
*It's just possible there was an additional attendee from the care home but memory fails me.
Do you feel incontinent disabled people should just kill themselves themselves then ?
Do you feel they should be legally prevented from doing so?
I don't disagree. The point isn't what one would do oneself but whether people have the right to make their own choice. One can wholeheartedly approve of someone's right to choose without approving of their choice.
And whether or not a disabled individual regards their life as worth living depends very much on their individual values and priorities. Someone whose life has been built around sport and physical pursuits would find the loss of limbs or paralysis particularity hard to bear. Someone whose life revolves around music would find deafness particularly hard to bear.
I'm not about to tell either of them what they should do or how they should manage their disability. That's up to them. They should be given a range of options and examples of people living with their disability and then supported in whatever decision they make.
So every musician who goes deaf should be like Beethoven?
It is very hard not to feel that you are dictating what other people should choose based on your values and failing to consider that other people's values are just as valid for them and might lead them to choose something other.
Who is making that assumption? Who gets to decide what a good life is, other than the person whose life it happens to be?
Yes, the person can be and should be shown ways of living with their disability and given examples of people who are living life as fully as possible with it, but there's no shame, no sense of failure, in anyone deciding that it isn't for them.
You and Marvin for a start.
Sorry to double post.
However it happens so it is not all about warm fuzzies or a sense of achievement l.
Traditionally I think they were seen as part of the glue that holds society together. Nowadays I think they are seen, at least by many in the UK, as private invitation only events.
Nope. I am assuming that for some people it will be the case. As regards what I said about my own old age, it's pure speculation. I've had relatives die compos mentis and relatives who've lingered for years with various degrees of dementia in nursing home. I had a friend die of melanoma in a hospice.
I know which I'd prefer.
Would I have the bravery to make a choice, or the ability and means to do so, or know when it's the right time? How do I know?
Getting from what @Marvin the Martian said to what you’re asking is a bit of a leap. The Who sang about hoping they died before they get old. Are you going to take them to task as well?
Nope, just that that’s how I personally feel about how I would personally feel were I personally in that position. Independence is incredibly important to me psychologically, such that even the thought of losing it in such a permanent and catastrophic way is enough to bring on the angst.
Only for myself.
Meanwhile, the only time I've ever heard of an "invitation" to a funeral (other than now, in the Time of COVID when attendance must be limited*), is when the graveside service will be private/family only. Under those circumstances, close friends and other "like family" people might be "invited."
Otherwise funerals are generally made publicly known, and word is passed around. And similar to what @Lamb Chopped said, here (the American South), attending the visitation and/or funeral of friends, co-workers, or anyone else you knew is very common.
*Here, most funeral services are being delayed, so that people can attend.
In the 1920s or later? Really?
We’re not talking about having staff around the house to do the more unpleasant or boring jobs for me here, and we’re not talking about having a bit of assistance in the bathroom. We’re talking about me having broken down to such an extent that I literally can’t do even the most basic or private of tasks for myself. The implications for what my life would look like under such circumstances are both obvious, and hideous to me.
What you are discussing could come about from having essential tremor or arthritis, and prostate trouble. You could well still be playing cricket, or whatever else.
Catastrophisation, is a snare and a delusion.
I can only say that the English South and the American South appear to be very different societies.
If I’m capable of playing cricket then I’m capable of changing my own damn nappy.
Bullshit. People suffer catastrophes every single day. It makes sense for people to consider what they would do in the event of a catastrophe, and we do it all the time.
I am currently somewhat prepared for a catastrophic earthquake because I live in Southern California, and I have given thought to what I would do in various earthquake scenarios. I am prepared to isolate in my apartment for at least two weeks because there is a pandemic. I have thought about what I would do if my hours at work were decreased because of the pandemic, and I've considered my options in the event of losing my job altogether. I've given some thought to how much I would be willing to risk if Trump succeeds in stealing the election: health, life? People make wills that name guardians for their children in the event of their own deaths. People buy long-term care insurance and life insurance; people are required to buy homeowner's insurance and car insurance. People make advance directives for end-of-life medical treatment. People tell their adult children and others what things make life worth living to them: seeing grandchildren, sitting in the sun in the garden, watching baseball games.
Jon Kabat-Zinn's book on mindfulness-based stress reduction isn't called Full Catastrophe Living for nothing.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/in-practice/201301/what-is-catastrophizing-cognitive-distortions
Fine and gross motor control are different things, and incontinence pads are fiddly.
Groom of the Stool was indeed a very high status job but I'm not convinced of its relevance to the moment.
I know what catastrophizing is. I'd love for the person who wrote that little squib to go tell all those students in the UK having their exam grades re-adjusted that not going to university won't be a catastrophe.
It's wierd that things change in a hundred years? I didn't have you pegged as quite such a conservative.
Things are changing a lot faster than they used to. Personal servants were a thing for millennia, and not just for the highest ranks. One hundred years ago, a family like the one I grew up in (successful business owner) might have had one or two servants to do household tasks as well as personal duties.
I'm more amazed at how many people seem to have forgotten that they have already lived through being so helpless they couldn't wipe their own asses.
Of course we've forgotten it. I've forgotten almost everything from before the age of five.
Sure. People are much more expensive now, so now most people don't have servants. That's Baumol's cost disease at work. Also, modern clothes are designed to be put on without assistance, we have labour-saving devices to make housework easier, etc.
Because people (in general) don't have servants, life is designed to make them unnecessary.
In the long term they might be right but the last thing you need when you're in the middle of working out what you do next because you've lost your university place because of an algorithm and an incompetent government is some smug git with a PhD telling you that it's not the end of the world.
That whole article just reads like "all things work for good for those that love the Lord" re-worked for a secular age.
I think you underestimate the amount of fine motor control needed to play cricket (or at least to do so reasonably well).
Not within the last hundred years it wasn't.
There's a significant difference between a temporary condition and a permanent one.
Tubbs Admin