then there's this guy: Jerry Falwell junior

2

Comments

  • Well, there's that, too.
    :disappointed:

    Perhaps I'll go and join them. Kenneth Copeland is good for a laugh, and completely out of his head the real world...
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    I've followed The Falwell Phenomena for a long time
    that THAT isn't entirely about "white"-ness either ...
    It IS very much about a world view deeply held
    and a theology -- Independent Fundamental Baptist ...

    Falwell Sr. opened a segregation academy. (Lynchburg Christian Academy, later renamed Liberty Christian Academy. Not the same institution as Liberty University. I guess they just liked the word "Liberty", despite not letting their students have any.) He also went to the mat for Bob Jones University's right to exclude black students and still keep its tax exempt status. Just because they've gotten better at saying those parts quietly, or in hints and dog whistles doesn't mean that they aren't there, and just because you dress up white supremacy in "a world view deeply held and a theology" doesn't mean it's no longer white supremacy.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    As usual Media plays its part. People only see what is reported. They draw opinion from that

    And some of us draw our opinions from what we actually see-saw live and unedited ... as I mentioned (above)I used to listen some times to Jerry, Sr. when he was the Sr. Pastor at Thomas Road Baptist Church ...
  • Could be cognitive dissonance - could be not caring - could be lots of reasons, but why are so many people taken in by these charlatans?
    :confused:

    They put on a good show ...
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    As usual Media plays its part. People only see what is reported. They draw opinion from that

    And some of us draw our opinions from what we actually see-saw live and unedited ... as I mentioned (above) I used to listen some times to Jerry, Sr. when he was the Sr. Pastor at Thomas Road Baptist Church ...

    No black congregants allowed until the early '70s.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    As usual Media plays its part. People only see what is reported. They draw opinion from that

    And some of us draw our opinions from what we actually see-saw live and unedited ... as I mentioned (above) I used to listen some times to Jerry, Sr. when he was the Sr. Pastor at Thomas Road Baptist Church ...

    No black congregants allowed until the early '70s.
    ISTR that Bob Jones university dropped its prohibition on interracial relationships in 2000.
  • It all worked out nicely for Jerry junior. They gave him a $10.5M severance package, presumably paid out the student fee revenue. He said it was justified, as none of the allegations against him were proven. Eh?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    It all worked out nicely for Jerry junior. They gave him a $10.5M severance package, presumably paid out the student fee revenue. He said it was justified, as none of the allegations against him were proven. Eh?

    Reminds me of the clause in Bill O'Reilly's contract with Fox News, which stipulated he could only be terminated for sexual harassment if it were proven in court. This led to O'Reilly settling a whole bunch of such claims out of court with payouts that, while larger than a court would probably award, were significantly smaller than his salary from Fox. In essence he was un-fireable as long as he made sure none of the claims against him ever saw the inside of a courtroom.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    As usual Media plays its part. People only see what is reported. They draw opinion from that

    And some of us draw our opinions from what we actually see-saw live and unedited ... as I mentioned (above) I used to listen some times to Jerry, Sr. when he was the Sr. Pastor at Thomas Road Baptist Church ...

    No black congregants allowed until the early '70s.

    I don't think I had heard of Falwell until some time later ...
    Anyway, I wasn't aware of his oddities beyond his bizarre obsession with "disproving 'evolution'" ...
  • Fr TeilhardFr Teilhard Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    It all worked out nicely for Jerry junior. They gave him a $10.5M severance package, presumably paid out the student fee revenue. He said it was justified, as none of the allegations against him were proven. Eh?

    I wonder if any of that will go to [redacted] "the pool 'boy'" ...

  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Crœsos wrote: »

    No black congregants allowed until the early '70s.
    ISTR that Bob Jones university dropped its prohibition on interracial relationships in 2000.

    Well that was dammed liberal of them.

    Arseholes.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    It all worked out nicely for Jerry junior. They gave him a $10.5M severance package, presumably paid out the student fee revenue. He said it was justified, as none of the allegations against him were proven. Eh?

    I wonder if any of that will go to [redacted] "the pool 'boy'" ...

    [redacted] Like the personal trainer. Who's a different person than the pool guy. And sometimes mistakes get made.
    More than simply talking with employees about his wife in a sexual manner, on at least one occasion, Falwell shared a photo of his wife wearing what appeared to be a French maid costume, according to a longtime Liberty employee with firsthand knowledge of the image and the fallout that followed.

    Falwell intended to send the image to his and Becki’s personal trainer, Ben Crosswhite, as a “thank you” for helping his wife achieve her fitness goals, the employee said. In the course of texting, Falwell accidentally sent the message to several other people, necessitating a cleanup.

    Assuming that there's just this one pool guy seems like a mistake.
  • Fr TeilhardFr Teilhard Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Crœsos wrote: »
    It all worked out nicely for Jerry junior. They gave him a $10.5M severance package, presumably paid out the student fee revenue. He said it was justified, as none of the allegations against him were proven. Eh?

    I wonder if any of that will go to [redacted] "the pool 'boy'" ...

    [redacted] Like the personal trainer. Who's a different person than the pool guy. And sometimes mistakes get made.
    More than simply talking with employees about his wife in a sexual manner, on at least one occasion, Falwell shared a photo of his wife wearing what appeared to be a French maid costume, according to a longtime Liberty employee with firsthand knowledge of the image and the fallout that followed.

    Falwell intended to send the image to his and Becki’s personal trainer, Ben Crosswhite, as a “thank you” for helping his wife achieve her fitness goals, the employee said. In the course of texting, Falwell accidentally sent the message to several other people, necessitating a cleanup.

    Assuming that there's just this one pool guy seems like a mistake.

    Where there's fire, there are burning embers and HOT coals ...
  • Hostly furry hat on

    I've made some slight redactions. Discussing what's in the public domain is fine - have at it. Implying more wrongdoing than that already alleged is a bit more tricky.

    It's late and I'm tired, so just play nicely please...

    DT
    HH

    Hostly furry hat off
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    I’m afraid I haven’t been too tempted at all to feel sorry for him. But I have to admit that his abhorrent misuse of that quote strengthens my suspicion that he wanted to be caught and that he wanted out of the mold Daddy set for him.

    Yeah, I wondered if some of it was to do with his dad. Heir to the throne not really wanting anything to do with it.

    Even with the mess, he would've done himself (and his wife, on who he seems to place blame) a big favor if he'd simply said something like "I messed up bad. I'm sorry. I'm going to work, with God's help, on getting my head on straight, on healing my marriage, and on making amends where I can. And part of that is resigning from LU--as of right now. They deserve better. Please pray for me."

    Re Jimmy Swaggart:

    I actually felt sorry for him, when he had his very public fall from grace. My perception at the time was that he (felt he) had exhausted everything he knew of living a Christian life...and it wasn't enough. He was desperately unhappy. So...paid companions. And then feeling he had nowhere to turn. He looked in such turmoil.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I’m afraid I haven’t been too tempted at all to feel sorry for him. But I have to admit that his abhorrent misuse of that quote strengthens my suspicion that he wanted to be caught and that he wanted out of the mold Daddy set for him.

    Yeah, I wondered if some of it was to do with his dad. Heir to the throne not really wanting anything to do with it.

    Even with the mess, he would've done himself (and his wife, on who he seems to place blame) a big favor if he'd simply said something like "I messed up bad. I'm sorry. I'm going to work, with God's help, on getting my head on straight, on healing my marriage, and on making amends where I can. And part of that is resigning from LU--as of right now. They deserve better. Please pray for me."

    Re Jimmy Swaggart:

    I actually felt sorry for him, when he had his very public fall from grace. My perception at the time was that he (felt he) had exhausted everything he knew of living a Christian life...and it wasn't enough. He was desperately unhappy. So...paid companions. And then feeling he had nowhere to turn. He looked in such turmoil.

    The Swaggart scandal became public when a rival preacher guy had a private detective follow Jimmy to his motel/hooker liaison ...

    In his younger days, Jimmy was a TERRIFIC pianist, like his cousin, Jerry lee Lewis ...

  • Is it just me, or does Crosswhite seem to be at pains to establish that his is a biblically approved marriage? (Referring to the Reuters piece linked by Croesus.)
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I’m afraid I haven’t been too tempted at all to feel sorry for him. But I have to admit that his abhorrent misuse of that quote strengthens my suspicion that he wanted to be caught and that he wanted out of the mold Daddy set for him.

    Yeah, I wondered if some of it was to do with his dad. Heir to the throne not really wanting anything to do with it.

    Even with the mess, he would've done himself (and his wife, on who he seems to place blame) a big favor if he'd simply said something like "I messed up bad. I'm sorry. I'm going to work, with God's help, on getting my head on straight, on healing my marriage, and on making amends where I can. And part of that is resigning from LU--as of right now. They deserve better. Please pray for me."

    Re Jimmy Swaggart:

    I actually felt sorry for him, when he had his very public fall from grace. My perception at the time was that he (felt he) had exhausted everything he knew of living a Christian life...and it wasn't enough. He was desperately unhappy. So...paid companions. And then feeling he had nowhere to turn. He looked in such turmoil.

    The Swaggart scandal became public when a rival preacher guy had a private detective follow Jimmy to his motel/hooker liaison ...

    A preacher whose affairs Swaggart had himself exposed. A few years after his 'I have sinned' moment he was again caught soliticiting.
  • ISTM that the Iris Robinson scandal is significantly more disturbing than the Falwell one.

    Iris had known Kirk since primary school, and as his father approached death, Iris promised to look out for Kirk. Layers and layers of deception, grooming and abuse. The fact that Kirk was 19 when the affair started means little (morally at least)

    I know that Giancarlo has written that his relationship with the Falwells was consensual, but I'm not buying that. Powerful people exploited and abused less powerful people.

  • asher wrote: »
    ISTM that the Iris Robinson scandal is significantly more disturbing than the Falwell one.

    You may want to consider how people like the Falwells function in certain parts of the evangelical world. In any case, other stories are now coming out that are cosmetically more similar.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2020
    asher wrote: »
    ISTM that the Iris Robinson scandal is significantly more disturbing than the Falwell one.

    You may want to consider how people like the Falwells function in certain parts of the evangelical world. In any case, other stories are now coming out that are cosmetically more similar.

    Yeah. OK - you have a good point.

    I'd just had lunch though, and that's making me feel queasy.

    Abuse.


  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I’m afraid I haven’t been too tempted at all to feel sorry for him. But I have to admit that his abhorrent misuse of that quote strengthens my suspicion that he wanted to be caught and that he wanted out of the mold Daddy set for him.

    Yeah, I wondered if some of it was to do with his dad. Heir to the throne not really wanting anything to do with it.

    Even with the mess, he would've done himself (and his wife, on who he seems to place blame) a big favor if he'd simply said something like "I messed up bad. I'm sorry. I'm going to work, with God's help, on getting my head on straight, on healing my marriage, and on making amends where I can. And part of that is resigning from LU--as of right now. They deserve better. Please pray for me."

    Re Jimmy Swaggart:

    I actually felt sorry for him, when he had his very public fall from grace. My perception at the time was that he (felt he) had exhausted everything he knew of living a Christian life...and it wasn't enough. He was desperately unhappy. So...paid companions. And then feeling he had nowhere to turn. He looked in such turmoil.

    The Swaggart scandal became public when a rival preacher guy had a private detective follow Jimmy to his motel/hooker liaison ...

    A preacher whose affairs Swaggart had himself exposed. A few years after his 'I have sinned' moment he was again caught soliticiting.

    "Like a dog returning to its vomit, so a fool reverts to his folly ... " -- Proverbs 26: 11
  • How different from the home life of our own dear Queen...

    But perhaps not Philip ... given perennial rumours of affairs
  • *swoons*

    O! The very thought! Is Outrage!
    :flushed:
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    How different from the home life of our own dear Queen...

    Bishops Finger do you know where this Quote came from? I tried Google briefly but it referenced understatement and a fairly modern review, whereas I thought it was older and originally referred to Queen Victoria.

  • Huia wrote: »
    How different from the home life of our own dear Queen...

    Bishops Finger do you know where this Quote came from? I tried Google briefly but it referenced understatement and a fairly modern review, whereas I thought it was older and originally referred to Queen Victoria.

    A quick google suggests it originated in references to performances of Anthony and Cleopatra c1900 but it is unclear whether the incident actually occurred or was a witticism invented by the article writers of the period.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    This page cites several early twentieth century sources.
  • IMHO, sounds like Oscar Wilde. Maybe in a play?
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    It does sound like Oscar Wilde, but I don't think it is. On the other hand I read a story about him hearing a particularly witty saying. He turned to a friend and remarked, "I wish I had said that first."

    "You will, Oscar, you will," the friend replied.
  • LOL.
  • I heard it on a Victoria Wood sketch. I think it was a Kitty sketch from Om TV
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited September 2020
    I was thinking that this whole episode causes me to have some sympathy for Jerry Falwell Snr., probably for the first time in my life. All those men who believed as Falwell did were genuine in their beliefs. They genuinely worked for the good of the world as they saw it. They were utterly and totally wrong, but they were genuine. Pence strikes me as the same - batshit crazy, but sincere. He's not faking that Gilead glint. (edit: how about pictures of Pence up to no good as an October surprise?)

    But this bloke, the kid who bears his father's name, he is just unzipping his pants and pissing all over his daddy's life's work. Should we give him a medal or something?
  • Actually, there might be a comedy series in this, sort of like Fr.Ted, but with three fallen conservative evangelicals. Falwell Jr is the basis for the Dougal character (you don't actually believe any of that stuff do you Ted), Jimmy Swaggart would be Fr Jack (drink feck arse girls), and Tammy Bakker could be Fr Ted (the money was only resting in my account).

    The real kicker would be to make them all Catholics. They'd probably hate that more than the sinning.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I was thinking that this whole episode causes me to have some sympathy for Jerry Falwell Snr., probably for the first time in my life. All those men who believed as Falwell did were genuine in their beliefs. They genuinely worked for the good of the world as they saw it. They were utterly and totally wrong, but they were genuine. Pence strikes me as the same - batshit crazy, but sincere. He's not faking that Gilead glint. (edit: how about pictures of Pence up to no good as an October surprise?)

    But this bloke, the kid who bears his father's name, he is just unzipping his pants and pissing all over his daddy's life's work. Should we give him a medal or something?

    The "Holiness" Movement among the Protest Ants always seems to turn out badly in real human lives ...

    Catholics, OTOH, have a serious awareness of the reality of "sin(s)" and so have the Sacrament of Confession ...
    ... and Confession every Sunday Mass ...
    "I confess to Almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters that I have greatly sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through most grievous fault; therefore I ask Blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God."

    "May Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. Amen"
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I was thinking that this whole episode causes me to have some sympathy for Jerry Falwell Snr., probably for the first time in my life.

    Somewhat ironically, one of the folk to speak up for Falwell Sr at this time has been Larry Flynt.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Actually, there might be a comedy series in this, sort of like Fr.Ted, but with three fallen conservative evangelicals. Falwell Jr is the basis for the Dougal character (you don't actually believe any of that stuff do you Ted), Jimmy Swaggart would be Fr Jack (drink feck arse girls), and Tammy Bakker could be Fr Ted (the money was only resting in my account).
    I will come to the defense of Tammy Faye Bakker Messner, yes she was unique and tacky and almost cartoonish, yes she could cry at the drop of a hat, yes she was in cahoots with a Jim and I’ve found few things to match her singing “My Hope is Built on Nothing Less” after Jim was convicted. But after that, she changed. In the 80s she was an advocate for those living with and dying from HIV/AIDS, and she called on Christians to accept gay people. Folks like RuPaul called her “the ultimate drag queen,” and that was meant as a compliment. She participated in Pride Parades. In a late-in-life interview with Larry King, she said "When I went, when we lost everything, it was the gay people that came to my rescue, and I will always love them for that."

    I came to have a great deal respect for her by the time she died. She let herself be changed by the love of those many of her peers would condemn.

  • Thank you for sharing that, Nick Tamen. I had never heard any of that about Tammy Faye.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Actually, there might be a comedy series in this, sort of like Fr.Ted, but with three fallen conservative evangelicals. Falwell Jr is the basis for the Dougal character (you don't actually believe any of that stuff do you Ted), Jimmy Swaggart would be Fr Jack (drink feck arse girls), and Tammy Bakker could be Fr Ted (the money was only resting in my account).
    I will come to the defense of Tammy Faye Bakker Messner, yes she was unique and tacky and almost cartoonish, yes she could cry at the drop of a hat, yes she was in cahoots with a Jim and I’ve found few things to match her singing “My Hope is Built on Nothing Less” after Jim was convicted. But after that, she changed. In the 80s she was an advocate for those living with and dying from HIV/AIDS, and she called on Christians to accept gay people. Folks like RuPaul called her “the ultimate drag queen,” and that was meant as a compliment. She participated in Pride Parades. In a late-in-life interview with Larry King, she said "When I went, when we lost everything, it was the gay people that came to my rescue, and I will always love them for that."

    I came to have a great deal respect for her by the time she died. She let herself be changed by the love of those many of her peers would condemn.

    Tammy Faye did come across as genuine, sweet and innocent ...
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Actually, there might be a comedy series in this, sort of like Fr.Ted, but with three fallen conservative evangelicals. Falwell Jr is the basis for the Dougal character (you don't actually believe any of that stuff do you Ted), Jimmy Swaggart would be Fr Jack (drink feck arse girls), and Tammy Bakker could be Fr Ted (the money was only resting in my account).
    I will come to the defense of Tammy Faye Bakker Messner, yes she was unique and tacky and almost cartoonish, yes she could cry at the drop of a hat, yes she was in cahoots with a Jim and I’ve found few things to match her singing “My Hope is Built on Nothing Less” after Jim was convicted. But after that, she changed. In the 80s she was an advocate for those living with and dying from HIV/AIDS, and she called on Christians to accept gay people. Folks like RuPaul called her “the ultimate drag queen,” and that was meant as a compliment. She participated in Pride Parades. In a late-in-life interview with Larry King, she said "When I went, when we lost everything, it was the gay people that came to my rescue, and I will always love them for that."

    I came to have a great deal respect for her by the time she died. She let herself be changed by the love of those many of her peers would condemn.

    Tammy Faye did come across as genuine, sweet and innocent ...
    From everything I’ve seen, she was.

    But I need to correct/clarify what I said earlier. It’s what I get for posting from memory when I tired from a long day and hungry.

    Her concern for gay people generally and for HIV/AIDS patients in particular pre-dated the scandals that brought down Jim Bakker and PTL, which happened later than I was remembering. She was showing concern for AIDS patients from the very beginning, and she was touching them and hugging them when many others were afraid to. From the get-go, she was calling on Christians, “who are supposed to be the salt of the earth,” to love and accept everyone, and she was using her TV show and her status to do it.

    So the reaction from gay people when she “lost everything” was in response to her advocacy over the years. It was a returning of her love with love. I was wrong, I think, to say it changed her, at least to the extent that suggests it caused her to rethink her faith and gay people. She was already loving and accepting, and had been for years. That’s simply who she was, I think.

    But from everything I’ve seen, it did change her in other ways, and it did seem to deepen her convictions.

    It sounds trite to say it, but I do think she truly believed that she was completely loved and accepted by God just as she was, that she believed that God loves and accepts everyone else just as they are, and that she and the rest of us are called to do the same.

  • Hugal wrote: »
    I heard it on a Victoria Wood sketch. I think it was a Kitty sketch from Om TV

    There's a Monty Python sketch where Oscar Wilde uses the line. But the main thrust of the skit is that he keeps saying blatantly unfunny and insulting things to some highbrow types, but gets away with it by then convincing them it was really clever.

    Given that the quip does not seem important to the general narrative of the skit, my guess is it was just included because it was something that Wilde was reputed to have said in real life.
  • Thanks for issuing the corrective about Tammy Bakker, Nick. I just associated her with fraud, along with her husband.
  • Dittoing the good comments about Tammy Faye.
  • When I was in grad school, my roommate, also a grad student, would hurry home every day so he could watch Days of Our Lives ("soap opera" mid-day drama show, very corny and badly acted). If I was there I would watch with him. One day there was a scene in a beauty salon, and the beautician had her back to the camera, but was explaining to the customer how it was important to affect a natural look, and too little makeup is always preferrable to too much, and along those lines. Then she turned to look in the camera and it was Tammy Faye Bakker. I thought, "Anyone who could do that kind of self-deprecating humor must really have something going for her."
  • I have a vague memory of Tammy Faye saying something about her and her mom being treated badly by a church when TF was growing up. Not sure of details.

    She seems like a sweet, decent person, married to a creep, who happened to wear...awkward...makeup.
  • mt--

    Cool re your TF story! :)
  • Would she be on Dancing with the Stars today if alive?
  • Would she be on Dancing with the Stars today if alive?
    Very possibly, I think.
  • Would she be on Dancing with the Stars today if alive?

    Could be ... She did appear in one of those really odd *Reality*TV* shows -- "The Surreal Life" -- that brought unlikely people together for several days close companionship, conversation, etc ... One of Tammy's costars was a porn star ...

  • Fr. Teilhard--

    The "Holiness" Movement among the Protest Ants always seems to turn out badly in real human lives ...

    Catholics, OTOH, have a serious awareness of the reality of "sin(s)" and so have the Sacrament of Confession ...
    ... and Confession every Sunday Mass ...

    ISTM that sin occurs everywhere on the Christian spectrum, regardless of the framework.
  • She did appear in one of those really odd *Reality*TV* shows -- "The Surreal Life" -- that brought unlikely people together for several days close companionship, conversation, etc ... One of Tammy's costars was a porn star ...
    Yes. Ron Jeremy.

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