Why are dessserts so often awful?

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  • KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Why? They'd cost more, not be as good, and the intersection of "eats meat" with "moral objection to eating vegetables" is, one would imagine, very nearly a null set.

    Oh, I doubt it very much. I'm sure that if you delve into somewhere like "we hunted the mammoth" they'll point you to some delightful chaps who've decided to tell the world how the eating of vegetables is a conspiracy invented by the feminazis to contaminate our precious bodily fluids and sap us of our vital essence.

    I keep forgetting just how divorced some people are from any concept of a rational thought process.

    I doubt that any of them want a fake carrot though.

    But it would be okay if it "tastes like chicken" ...
  • They are not sentient, so no.

    See: Samuel Butler regarding "a potato in a dark cellar" ...
    And in fact, some degree of sensitivity to stimulus is one of the central biological definitions of "life" ...

    Also they have all the basic signs of life. Remember your biology lessons. They are alive
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    I think one thing both home made and restaurant made have in common is that you can taste the love in them. Yes that is not very Hellish, though it might be for some readers. Let me explain.
    Both the family cook and the restraint pastry chef do it for love, it is certainly not for the money. A mother (father) makes nice things for the family because they love the family. A pastry chef makes great desserts because he/she loves to make great desserts for customers. That effect and joy somehow get into the food. Factory ace desserts no matter how good can not match that.
    Tell me if you disagree

    I have been pondering Dessert & The True Nature of Love, a welcome diversion in these trying times.

    What does love taste like in a dessert? Because I agree with Hugal, you can experience love in an edible form. (The more sacramental among us may wish to take that thought further :smile: ). To me, love tastes like respect for the ingredients, for the knowledge of the craft, and respect for the people eating it. All of those things take time and good judgment. So for example love tastes like bread that has been allowed to prove properly, rather than shitty factory baking methods.

    Maybe in this case love starts with knowledge. Knowledge of what constitutes good quality ingredients, mastery of technique, and sensitivity to the person who hopefully will be delighting in and eating the dessert. If I as a restaurant guest don't know any of those things, I will be less aware and less able to distinguish between "meh" quality and excellent quality desserts. I won't be able to taste the love if I don't know the difference.

    I think that for me, one way of experiencing love in a high quality dessert is in its presentation. I realize others care less about presentation, and that's okay! You do you! But I find that by the end of a long multi-course formal dinner, where I've been sitting for hours, I'm ready for beauty, diversion, creativity, and probably Something Else to Talk About. At that point I don't want a giant wodge of anything, not even Olympian ambrosia.

    I remember enjoying the dessert course at Susur, years ago, which was a funny and delicious throwback to the double-decker dainty tray. There were small intense delicious individual desserts, enough for each person at the table to try (so you didn't have to do the rigmarole of moving plates of wodges around the table for each person to have a bite). It was pretty, witty, tasty, and Just the Right Amount. It wasn't overly dramatic but still memorable in the perfection of the scale, kind, and presentation of the sweets.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Vegan dessert “recreations” are a mortal sin.
    Make. Something. Different.
    Ahhh-men.
    The reason latticework hides a multitude of sins is because using a whole pie top cover requires you to get it visibly and absolutely right (no holes, patches, seams, bits that had to be stretched to meet the edge, and so forth.) With latticework, the eye is distracted ("oh, how pretty!" and you need less dough as well, which means you can throw away your mistakes (such as strips that are too short or misshapen).
    Ahh! Thank you for the much-needed enlightenment.


  • Leaf wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I think one thing both home made and restaurant made have in common is that you can taste the love in them. Yes that is not very Hellish, though it might be for some readers. Let me explain.
    Both the family cook and the restraint pastry chef do it for love, it is certainly not for the money. A mother (father) makes nice things for the family because they love the family. A pastry chef makes great desserts because he/she loves to make great desserts for customers. That effect and joy somehow get into the food. Factory ace desserts no matter how good can not match that.
    Tell me if you disagree

    I have been pondering Dessert & The True Nature of Love, a welcome diversion in these trying times.

    What does love taste like in a dessert? Because I agree with Hugal, you can experience love in an edible form. (The more sacramental among us may wish to take that thought further :smile: ). To me, love tastes like respect for the ingredients, for the knowledge of the craft, and respect for the people eating it. All of those things take time and good judgment. So for example love tastes like bread that has been allowed to prove properly, rather than shitty factory baking methods.

    Maybe in this case love starts with knowledge. Knowledge of what constitutes good quality ingredients, mastery of technique, and sensitivity to the person who hopefully will be delighting in and eating the dessert. If I as a restaurant guest don't know any of those things, I will be less aware and less able to distinguish between "meh" quality and excellent quality desserts. I won't be able to taste the love if I don't know the difference.

    I think that for me, one way of experiencing love in a high quality dessert is in its presentation. I realize others care less about presentation, and that's okay! You do you! But I find that by the end of a long multi-course formal dinner, where I've been sitting for hours, I'm ready for beauty, diversion, creativity, and probably Something Else to Talk About. At that point I don't want a giant wodge of anything, not even Olympian ambrosia.

    I remember enjoying the dessert course at Susur, years ago, which was a funny and delicious throwback to the double-decker dainty tray. There were small intense delicious individual desserts, enough for each person at the table to try (so you didn't have to do the rigmarole of moving plates of wodges around the table for each person to have a bite). It was pretty, witty, tasty, and Just the Right Amount. It wasn't overly dramatic but still memorable in the perfection of the scale, kind, and presentation of the sweets.

    Obviously I agree with a lot here particularly for restaurants. You can definitely tell when someone who knows what they are doing and has taken the care and time to prepare it properly. Many restaurant do not have the money for a proper brigade so use ready made from a factory. Not the same.
    There is also the love that a parent/care giver/spouse/partner put into making food for the family. A simple Victoria sponge made with love can be just as good as the more complicated desserts
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Leaf wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I think one thing both home made and restaurant made have in common is that you can taste the love in them. Yes that is not very Hellish, though it might be for some readers. Let me explain.
    Both the family cook and the restraint pastry chef do it for love, it is certainly not for the money. A mother (father) makes nice things for the family because they love the family. A pastry chef makes great desserts because he/she loves to make great desserts for customers. That effect and joy somehow get into the food. Factory ace desserts no matter how good can not match that.
    Tell me if you disagree

    I have been pondering Dessert & The True Nature of Love, a welcome diversion in these trying times.

    What does love taste like in a dessert? Because I agree with Hugal, you can experience love in an edible form. (The more sacramental among us may wish to take that thought further :smile: ). To me, love tastes like respect for the ingredients, for the knowledge of the craft, and respect for the people eating it. All of those things take time and good judgment. So for example love tastes like bread that has been allowed to prove properly, rather than shitty factory baking methods.

    Maybe in this case love starts with knowledge. Knowledge of what constitutes good quality ingredients, mastery of technique, and sensitivity to the person who hopefully will be delighting in and eating the dessert. If I as a restaurant guest don't know any of those things, I will be less aware and less able to distinguish between "meh" quality and excellent quality desserts. I won't be able to taste the love if I don't know the difference.

    I think that for me, one way of experiencing love in a high quality dessert is in its presentation. I realize others care less about presentation, and that's okay! You do you! But I find that by the end of a long multi-course formal dinner, where I've been sitting for hours, I'm ready for beauty, diversion, creativity, and probably Something Else to Talk About. At that point I don't want a giant wodge of anything, not even Olympian ambrosia.

    I remember enjoying the dessert course at Susur, years ago, which was a funny and delicious throwback to the double-decker dainty tray. There were small intense delicious individual desserts, enough for each person at the table to try (so you didn't have to do the rigmarole of moving plates of wodges around the table for each person to have a bite). It was pretty, witty, tasty, and Just the Right Amount. It wasn't overly dramatic but still memorable in the perfection of the scale, kind, and presentation of the sweets.

    Obviously I agree with a lot here particularly for restaurants. You can definitely tell when someone who knows what they are doing and has taken the care and time to prepare it properly. Many restaurant do not have the money for a proper brigade so use ready made from a factory. Not the same.
    There is also the love that a parent/care giver/spouse/partner put into making food for the family. A simple Victoria sponge made with love can be just as good as the more complicated desserts

    Thus illustrating why "Sunshine Desserts" went broke and Reginald Iolanthe Perrin went on to develop "Grot Shops, Ltd." ...
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    The reason latticework hides a multitude of sins is because using a whole pie top cover requires you to get it visibly and absolutely right (no holes, patches, seams, bits that had to be stretched to meet the edge, and so forth.) With latticework, the eye is distracted ("oh, how pretty!" and you need less dough as well, which means you can throw away your mistakes (such as strips that are too short or misshapen).
    Ahh! Thank you for the much-needed enlightenment.
    Heh. Now guess what most of my pies have on top. :wink:



  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    The reason latticework hides a multitude of sins is because using a whole pie top cover requires you to get it visibly and absolutely right (no holes, patches, seams, bits that had to be stretched to meet the edge, and so forth.) With latticework, the eye is distracted ("oh, how pretty!" and you need less dough as well, which means you can throw away your mistakes (such as strips that are too short or misshapen).
    Ahh! Thank you for the much-needed enlightenment.
    Heh. Now guess what most of my pies have on top. :wink:

    My Mum used to put a cut out star on mince pies for the same reason. :mrgreen:

  • It’s a nice idea that good desserts are those made with love, but it’s not universally true.
    Read Nigel Slater’s culinary autobiography “Toast” for an alternative point of view.
  • Aravis wrote: »
    It’s a nice idea that good desserts are those made with love, but it’s not universally true.
    Read Nigel Slater’s culinary autobiography “Toast” for an alternative point of view.

    'Toast' - such an amazing book! (As long as you are not too offended by disparaging remarks about elderly relatives.)

    When we used to eat out as a family, I was cross at the cost of so-so desserts after what were usually really lovely and well-priced first courses. So we developed a cunning plan - to leave after the main course and treat everyone to a good quality ice-cream later in the day. The habit has stuck.
  • Aravis wrote: »
    It’s a nice idea that good desserts are those made with love, but it’s not universally true.
    Just like sex, skill and practice give a better result than love

  • Skill and practice are part of love
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Aravis wrote: »
    It’s a nice idea that good desserts are those made with love, but it’s not universally true.
    Just like sex, skill and practice give a better result than love

    Not just sex, probably many other things too. I really love my children but there are many photographs of them when they were little with truly appalling home haircuts.....
    But love can lead us to give of our best so combined with skill it could transform a lot of things we do we do, including making desserts.
  • Chorister wrote: »
    When we used to eat out as a family, I was cross at the cost of so-so desserts after what were usually really lovely and well-priced first courses. So we developed a cunning plan - to leave after the main course and treat everyone to a good quality ice-cream later in the day. The habit has stuck.
    When we were on holiday in Istanbul a few years back, we did much the same: ate our evening meal in a restaurant, then went for a stroll ending up at a "pudding shop" near our hotel.

  • Hugal wrote: »
    Skill and practice are part of love
    No. They can be. And they can be completely separate.
  • MrsBeaky wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Aravis wrote: »
    It’s a nice idea that good desserts are those made with love, but it’s not universally true.
    Just like sex, skill and practice give a better result than love

    Not just sex, probably many other things too. I really love my children but there are many photographs of them when they were little with truly appalling home haircuts.....
    But love can lead us to give of our best so combined with skill it could transform a lot of things we do we do, including making desserts.
    Can. Might not. No amount of love transforms a complete lack of skill.
    Do not get me wrong, I think love is a wonderful thing, it just isn't magic.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    MrsBeaky wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Aravis wrote: »
    It’s a nice idea that good desserts are those made with love, but it’s not universally true.
    Just like sex, skill and practice give a better result than love

    Not just sex, probably many other things too. I really love my children but there are many photographs of them when they were little with truly appalling home haircuts.....
    But love can lead us to give of our best so combined with skill it could transform a lot of things we do we do, including making desserts.
    Can. Might not. No amount of love transforms a complete lack of skill.
    Do not get me wrong, I think love is a wonderful thing, it just isn't magic.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    MrsBeaky wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Aravis wrote: »
    It’s a nice idea that good desserts are those made with love, but it’s not universally true.
    Just like sex, skill and practice give a better result than love

    Not just sex, probably many other things too. I really love my children but there are many photographs of them when they were little with truly appalling home haircuts.....
    But love can lead us to give of our best so combined with skill it could transform a lot of things we do we do, including making desserts.
    Can. Might not. No amount of love transforms a complete lack of skill.
    Do not get me wrong, I think love is a wonderful thing, it just isn't magic.

    Yes, quite, hence my mention of my complete lack of hair-cutting skills- I honestly cringe looking at those photos and thinking that my poor, poor children went to school with those haircuts!!

    I still maintain that the combination of skill motivated by love can be a very powerful one.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    My mother used to make a rhubarb pie once a year, because my dad liked it. She didn't, and neither did any of us kids. Dad would work his way through it, one piece a day till it was gone, every year.

    They had been married probably 25 years or so when Dad finally said he didn't like rhubarb. Mom said, "But you've been eating a rhubarb pie every year!" And Dad said, "I ate it because you made it!"

    And that was the end of the annual rhubarb pie. They never did figure out how she came to believe he liked rhubarb. Chances are she made a rhubarb pie early in their marriage just to see if they'd like it, and he ate it instead of saying he didn't like it.
  • Same thing in our house with French toast. I made it for three years as a treat for his breakfast before he told me he did not like French toast. I thought that was kind of nice, but wish he had saved me the work.
  • Same issue in my household, regarding turkey soup. I made it for him during our courtship, he lied and raved about it, and after the wedding the truth came out. A couple of years after...
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    I love rhubarb pie. I wish I had someone who would enjoy baking it for me!
  • I think rhubarb pie and custard is lovely and would definitely appreciate it..
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Reminds me - the annual crop from the Hawthornden* is in the kitchen, so must make an apple tart this weekend. It will be shop-bought pastry and nothing special.

    I don't do a lot of baking: as a child all tarts came in two flavours - apple or rhubarb.

    *old Scottish variety.
  • I don't think it would ever have occurred to my wife, or me, to have lied about our food preferences.
  • I don't think it would ever have occurred to my wife, or me, to have lied about our food preferences.

    Both Mrs C and I have found, however, that our preferences have changed over time, so things that used to be favourites aren't any more.
  • I don't think it would ever have occurred to my wife, or me, to have lied about our food preferences.

    Both Mrs C and I have found, however, that our preferences have changed over time, so things that used to be favourites aren't any more.

    Oh yes, my wife is notoriously changeable in that respect, but she just tells me when it happens. She's off smoked paprika at the moment which is a bit of a blow for me. For a while she went off sausages.
  • I don't think it would ever have occurred to my wife, or me, to have lied about our food preferences.

    Both Mrs C and I have found, however, that our preferences have changed over time, so things that used to be favourites aren't any more.

    Oh yes, my wife is notoriously changeable in that respect, but she just tells me when it happens. She's off smoked paprika at the moment which is a bit of a blow for me. For a while she went off sausages.

    Either rules out chorizo...
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    I don't think it would ever have occurred to my wife, or me, to have lied about our food preferences.

    Both Mrs C and I have found, however, that our preferences have changed over time, so things that used to be favourites aren't any more.

    Oh yes, my wife is notoriously changeable in that respect, but she just tells me when it happens. She's off smoked paprika at the moment which is a bit of a blow for me. For a while she went off sausages.

    Either rules out chorizo...

    The sausage drought was prior to our encountering chorizo.
  • Must... avoid... obvious... sausage... drought... obscene... joke...
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Must... avoid... obvious... sausage... drought... obscene... joke...

    <Hugh Laurie>
    Sausage Time!
  • Does anyone actually like cheesecake, or do they all just pretend?
  • Does anyone actually like cheesecake, or do they all just pretend?

    Why do you ask that?
  • Whenever I've been induced to attempt it I feel my guts seizing up, followed by crippling indigestion. I get the impression that we are supposed to like it because it's expensive, but can't imagine how anyone can.
  • Whenever I've been induced to attempt it I feel my guts seizing up, followed by crippling indigestion. I get the impression that we are supposed to like it because it's expensive, but can't imagine how anyone can.

    Well, IME it's not particularly expensive, and I've never noticed any digestive system effect, so that might just be you. IBS? Who knows?
  • Does anyone actually like cheesecake, or do they all just pretend?

    There is such thing as good cheesecake, but so much of it just tastes like overcooked cheese and egg scramble.
  • amybo wrote: »
    Does anyone actually like cheesecake, or do they all just pretend?

    There is such thing as good cheesecake, but so much of it just tastes like overcooked cheese and egg scramble.
    If you taste the eggs, the person cooking either didn't know what they were doing. Full stop.
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Whenever I've been induced to attempt it I feel my guts seizing up, followed by crippling indigestion. I get the impression that we are supposed to like it because it's expensive, but can't imagine how anyone can.

    Well, IME it's not particularly expensive, and I've never noticed any digestive system effect, so that might just be you. IBS? Who knows?
    If it isn't expensive, it isn't good cheesecake. It is a relatively expensive dessert to make compared to most, if one uses a good recipe. The cheese, whichever kind one uses, is more expensive than the flour that comprises the bulk of many desserts. Crap recipes use cheaper fillers to reduce the amount of cheese.
  • Anecdote time again. We were in the Carnegie Deli in New York, many years ago, and my brother-in-law asked the waitress for a piece of the extravagant looking cheesecake that was on offer. "You won't like it", she said. He tried it and sent it back, to be told with a straight face, "I told you". In another thread there was discussion of racial vs racist jokes, and some here will know that the Carnegie was very much a Jewish establishment, despite its name. That waitress was straight out of one of the great Jewish humorists.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Would this be baked cheesecake? None of the desserts committed under that name in this house are cooked. They are all varying combinations of cream cheese/cream/condensed milk/jelly/gelatine on a biscuit crumb base.
  • I like a nice baked cheesecake, though my preference is for a flapjack base. I only make it when the philly is half price though.
  • I have no idea how the chefs at Tesco make the cheesecakes that I buy and like. Mr Nen insists they upset his stomach Something Terrible so we can only have them when we have friends over (I could eat a cheesecake single-handed over the course of a couple of days but it wouldn't do my waistline any favours) and I always provide an alternative, such as fresh fruit and cream.

    We have friends over this Sunday and as we're all the same sort of generation I'm thinking I might do that dessert some of us remember from Hell childhood - flan base, sliced bananas, butterscotch Angel Delight and a crumbled chocolate flake on top. Just for old times' sake. I'll offer the fruit and cream option as well. On the other hand it sounds as though the weather's going to be grim so crumble and custard might go down better.

    Getting unhellish - sorry.
  • Regardless of history and regional variations, some foods belong to a certain place.
    New York Cheesecake, which is baked, is the default cheesecake. There is no argument against this, even though there are other variations that are also very good. Even if you prefer a different style, NY is the home of cheesecake.
    Just as the pasty is Cornish, stout is Guinness and waffles are Belgian; some things are unalterably of ONE. PLACE.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    It's like pizza: it's long since escaped the bounds of its origin. In the days when one could travel, we had the tradition of 'first night pizza' (a pizzeria being an easy find when just arrived in a new city). There are some weird variants out there - Budapest was a sort of floury pancake topped with salmon, AIR. Aachen cheese and gyros.
  • I love cheesecake, but not the gooey kind -- the firm "New York Style" kind.
  • I love almost any cheesecake. Mmmmmm.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host
    I have long felt that cheesecake was a waste of calories. I can think of so many better ways to take them on!
  • Years ago I used to make a cheesecake which came straight from the pit of Cholesterol City - the base was made from melted dark chocolate and it went downhill from there. A lot of work, absolutely delicious, and it's probably a good thing I've lost the recipe.
  • Baked Cheesecake is American. European cheesecake is not baked. The Japanese have a traditional cheesecake type it is baked but no base. It uses cream cheese so is not custard or flan
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Baked Cheesecake is American. European cheesecake is not baked. The Japanese have a traditional cheesecake type it is baked but no base. It uses cream cheese so is not custard or flan
    yeahsowhat?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    NY cheesecake is cream cheese-based, and it is the One True Cheesecake.
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