Why are dessserts so often awful?

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  • And I guess that neither Germany or Italy are in Europe? And there are no-bake versions of cheesecake in what I thought was America. But evidently. what continent one is one depends on what cheescake one is eating rather than location 🤯
  • It was said up thread that NY Me a the home of cheesecake and it is baked. That is an American idea. Over here cheese cake is traditionally not baked
  • Hugal wrote: »
    It was said up thread that NY Me a the home of cheesecake and it is baked. That is an American idea. Over here cheese cake is traditionally not baked
    Wrong. Germany is a European as the UK. Well, even more so now. Käsekuchen is baked.
    Swedish cheesecake is baked. Italian cheesecake is baked. Portuguese cheesecake (Queijada) is baked. I could continue the tour, but hopefully you get the picture.


    The cheesecake is thing of variation and iteration, there is no one type and the variations flow through the countries that make it.

    The first Greek Cheesecake recipe (230 AD) requires baking. So unless they had a time machine to steal that from the US...

    BTW, saying New York Cheesecake is the default is not the same thing as being the home.
    Oh, and using cream cheese IS American. Cream cheese was invented there* and first used in cheesecakes there.

    Like most foods, the history and variation make definitive, non-hyperbolic, statements questionable.

    *Although, many countries have a similar cheese, so only that specific variant is American.

    Don't throw down about my favourite (non-chocolate) dessert without some serious knowledge to back you up.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    It was said up thread that NY Me a the home of cheesecake and it is baked. That is an American idea. Over here cheese cake is traditionally not baked
    Wrong. Germany is a European as the UK. Well, even more so now. Käsekuchen is baked.
    Swedish cheesecake is baked. Italian cheesecake is baked. Portuguese cheesecake (Queijada) is baked. I could continue the tour, but hopefully you get the picture.

    I suspect that Hugal's "over here" referred to the UK, rather than the whole European continent. Just like when Americans talk about "over here" they don't usually mean Canada or Mexico.
  • I suspect that Hugal's "over here" referred to the UK, rather than the whole European continent. Just like when Americans talk about "over here" they don't usually mean Canada or Mexico.

    That's awfully subtle for this thread.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    It was said up thread that NY Me a the home of cheesecake and it is baked. That is an American idea. Over here cheese cake is traditionally not baked
    Wrong. Germany is a European as the UK. Well, even more so now. Käsekuchen is baked.
    Swedish cheesecake is baked. Italian cheesecake is baked. Portuguese cheesecake (Queijada) is baked. I could continue the tour, but hopefully you get the picture.

    I suspect that Hugal's "over here" referred to the UK, rather than the whole European continent. Just like when Americans talk about "over here" they don't usually mean Canada or Mexico.
    One needn't suspect when one can read.
    Hugal wrote: »
    Baked Cheesecake is American. European cheesecake is not baked. The Japanese have a traditional cheesecake type it is baked but no base. It uses cream cheese so is not custard or flan
  • Hugal overgeneralized. Therefore he should be pummelled and torn a new one. Makes sense to me.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Hugal overgeneralized. Therefore he should be pummelled and torn a new one. Makes sense to me.
    Why it it a pummel? Granted, there are no emojis to indicate emotion, but the hyperbole contained in calling out NY cheesecake, Guinness, pasties and waffles as belonging to certain places should indicated the lack of seriousness in the exchange. Food doesn't really work like that.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Hugal wrote: »
    Baked Cheesecake is American. European cheesecake is not baked. The Japanese have a traditional cheesecake type it is baked but no base. It uses cream cheese so is not custard or flan
    Not completely so. There’s the very splendid (if well made) Yorkshire Cheesecake which I find is also known as Yorkshire Curd Tart - not a term I’ve encountered before.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Baked Cheesecake is American. European cheesecake is not baked. The Japanese have a traditional cheesecake type it is baked but no base. It uses cream cheese so is not custard or flan
    Not completely so. There’s the very splendid (if well made) Yorkshire Cheesecake which I find is also known as Yorkshire Curd Tart - not a term I’ve encountered before.

    The latter term is the only one used up here IME.

    It's like Bakewell Puddings. Only referred to as tarts well outside Bakewell.
  • I’ve only heard it called a Yorkshire curd tart.
  • LB. I have two patisserie certificates and have worked as a pastry chef. Yes there are variants around the world. The general principle is that in terms of modern cheesecakes baked is associated with the US, not baked is associated with Europe. There are lots of dishes that are like cheesecake, as in the Yorkshire Curd cake, but cheesecake has a very strong definition in the business. So it is the definition of cheesecake that is the problem here. Don’t challenge me to a patisserie duel, you will lose.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Hugal overgeneralized. Therefore he should be pummelled and torn a new one. Makes sense to me.
    Why it it a pummel?

    Because it kept going on and on and on long after it had made its point, and ended in a naked command.

    Better to ask, why was he pummeled? Something I cannot answer, only the pummeler.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    LB. I have two patisserie certificates and have worked as a pastry chef. Yes there are variants around the world. The general principle is that in terms of modern cheesecakes baked is associated with the US, not baked is associated with Europe. There are lots of dishes that are like cheesecake, as in the Yorkshire Curd cake, but cheesecake has a very strong definition in the business. So it is the definition of cheesecake that is the problem here. Don’t challenge me to a patisserie duel, you will lose.
    Dude, tell the Germans their cheesecake either isn't cheesecake or isn't German, don't tell me. Tell the Italians their cheesecake either isn't cheesecake or isn't Italian, don't tell me. You made a blanket statement that doesn't seem to be accurate. Now you are splitting hairs about what is a cheescake.
    Baking cheesecakes started in Europe before there was a US.
    Many counties in Europe* bake their cheesecakes. Tell me how this is true if Europe doesn't bake cheesecakes?
    As I understand it, American cheesecake is based on French cheesecake, which is baked. In France. Which is in Europe.
    The cream cheese associated with American cheesecake was an attempt to create Neufchâtel. A French cheese. Like many American foods, their isn't a whole lot of American in it.

    I will gladly accept that you know more about pastries than I do. But I am failing to see why these things called cheesecakes are not actually cheesecakes. An expert will know more than a mere enthusiast, but that doesn't mean the experts words are to be accepted, especially when the evidence appears to be contradictory.

    Again, glad to be corrected if I am wrong, but "because I say so" isn't sufficient.

    *Germany, Italy, Romania, Russia, Portugal, Poland,** Greece. Possibly more.

    **They have both bakes and unbaked
  • I wish I hadn't mentioned cheesecake. I am not feeling so well...
  • Perhaps some fruit salad instead? What are the best (or worst) types of fruit salad? Worst would certainly include ones where the fruit isn't ripe.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Neufchâtel in cheesecake??? I can only assume you have never eaten Neufchâtel. There is no way it should be going anywhere near a dessert. Either that or whoever was trying to recreate it was a very bad cheese maker.

    The French equivalent of a cheesecake usually uses fromage blanc, a dairy product you rarely see outside of France. It's baked, FWIW.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    I wonder if a lot of readers of this thread are searching 'cheesecake' and getting something entirely different from what they expected...

    Meanwhile, I hope you have all done the Buzzfeed 'Are You A Dessert Snob' quiz? (I won't link, you know where the website is if you want to do it.)

    I got 9/10 and therefore I'm a dessert snob. Apparently. Perhaps even more so than the quiz setter, who thinks ice cream belongs in a profiterole.
  • Is outrage
  • I am broadly with Hugal on this debate, not least because he is certified. Traditionally, what we in the UK would call a cheescake is not baked. We also know of a baked cheescake. Where that comes from, I don't know, but it is not a UK idea. I am not saying that it is bad (I love a cheesecake however it is made), just that cheesecake from my youth was not baked.

    I haven't done the dessert snob thing. I am not a snob. If it is pastry/chocolate/cream I will eat it and enjoy. And yes, really well made ones I will enjoy more.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    As I said we seem to have a different definition of cheesecake. In the business over here in the UK cheesecake is as I have points out. Often a professional definition is different from a traditional or regional definition. Over here we tend to call dishes by their original name. So the French dish you mentioned is called Neufachtal not cheesecake. I think that is the problem. The origin and variant dished would be known by their name. The standard definitions are cheesecake and baked (or New York) cheesecake. Has that cleared things up
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    Pro tip: don’t let @Hugal and me get onto whether a burger is a sandwich or not. Longest argument we’ve had in 25 years of marriage...
  • It's a sandwich.
  • Neufchâtel in cheesecake??? I can only assume you have never eaten Neufchâtel. There is no way it should be going anywhere near a dessert. Either that or whoever was trying to recreate it was a very bad cheese maker.

    The French equivalent of a cheesecake usually uses fromage blanc, a dairy product you rarely see outside of France. It's baked, FWIW.
    I didn't say that Neufchâtel was used in cheesecake, but that cream cheese, which is used in American cheesecake was an attempt to recreate it. That was part of discussing how "American" foods are often of other origin.
    My bad for not communicating that more clearly.
  • I await the day that lilbuddha's heart explodes in a rage over cheesecake.
  • Perhaps some fruit salad instead? What are the best (or worst) types of fruit salad? Worst would certainly include ones where the fruit isn't ripe.

    Worst includes any fruit salad that is unaccountably full of melon.

    I won't ask Hugal whether a burger is a sandwich or not (in my childhood, "sandwich" specifically described something between bits of sliced bread. A filled roll was a filled roll, not a sandwich. So if you place a beefburger between two slices of buttered bread, you can call it a sandwich), but I will point out that a cheesecake isn't a cake. It's a tart. Or maybe a pie.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    As I said we seem to have a different definition of cheesecake. In the business over here in the UK cheesecake is as I have points out.

    This is definitely a Pond difference and possibly a cultural difference.

    IME unbaked cheesecake is seen as slightly lazy, the kind of thing a home cook would make when she (because it's usually she) could just barely be bothered to make dessert at all. It's just a notch above Jello.

    Unbaked cheesecake would be the kind of thing my grandmother might have taken to a ladies' church event or a distant relative's hall shower, prepared in individual muffin tins for easier distribution, to indicate that yes, she brought something in order to fulfill the social obligation, but she didn't go to a lot of trouble about it. Unbaked cheesecake is the mediocre "yeah, okay" of desserts in my cultural experience of it.

    Low-end restaurants might have unbaked cheesecake available by the slice in a big plastic case at the front, near the cash register. It may be served with a dollop of canned pie filling on top. In such establishments, cubed Jello is also available, but this version of cheesecake would be seen as the slightly fancier option.

    If I were at a restaurant that had a dessert menu offering cheesecake, I would expect to receive baked cheesecake. To receive unbaked cheesecake would be slightly unpleasant and almost somewhat deceptive, as if you'd ordered roast beef and received some kind of baked hamburger on the technicality that it was "beef" that had been "roasted." I would never go back to that restaurant again.



  • Hugal wrote: »
    As I said we seem to have a different definition of cheesecake. In the business over here in the UK cheesecake is as I have points out. Often a professional definition is different from a traditional or regional definition. Over here we tend to call dishes by their original name. So the French dish you mentioned is called Neufachtal not cheesecake.
    See my post to la vie en rouge
    Hugal wrote: »
    I think that is the problem. The origin and variant dished would be known by their name. The standard definitions are cheesecake and baked (or New York) cheesecake. Has that cleared things up
    Not sure.
    Käsekuchen literally means cheesecake. The Bulgarian version is made very similarly to the NY one. Italian cheesecake also tastes somewhat different, but it still tastes like cheesecake.
    There is a commonality in many of the European cheesecakes to the NY one. Or, rather, the other way 'round.

    Haven't had the Russian, but it appears different enough to maybe be a different category. So, yes, some of the variations push the definition far enough to be different things, but enough maintain a commonality to be the same, basic thing.

    From what I can see, this is quack, waddle: duck.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    They would not be called cheesecake. They may be call Russian Cheesecake but cheesecake has a definition in the industry over here. The word Cheesecake means what I said it does. Any other have a qualifier or use the original name.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Sorry to double post. Also for a European cheesecake I would use something like mascarpone not a Philadelphia style cream cheese. May be Qwark
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    As for what constitutes a sandwich, Ruth Bader Ginsburg memorably ruled that a hotdog was one. I think she would apply the same criteria to a burger.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Of course it is.

    A casserole with pastry on top is not, however, a pie.
  • Everybody knows a hot dog is a taco. (bread open on one side only)
  • Perhaps some fruit salad instead? What are the best (or worst) types of fruit salad? Worst would certainly include ones where the fruit isn't ripe.
    ), but I will point out that a cheesecake isn't a cake. It's a tart. Or maybe a pie.

    What witchcraft is this?! No sides = not a tart. No sides and no lid = not a pie. Flour, eggs, sugar and fat baked in the oven = some kind of cake.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Sorry to double post. Also for a European cheesecake I would use something like mascarpone not a Philadelphia style cream cheese. May be Qwark

    All three are "fresh" dairy products, as is fromage blanc. They are mild, unaged soft cheeses, marscapone even being categorised as a cream cheese.
    Again, waddle, quack:duck.
    Your separation seems artificial.
  • Leaf wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    As I said we seem to have a different definition of cheesecake. In the business over here in the UK cheesecake is as I have points out.

    This is definitely a Pond difference and possibly a cultural difference.

    IME unbaked cheesecake is seen as slightly lazy, the kind of thing a home cook would make when she (because it's usually she) could just barely be bothered to make dessert at all. It's just a notch above Jello.

    Unbaked cheesecake would be the kind of thing my grandmother might have taken to a ladies' church event or a distant relative's hall shower, prepared in individual muffin tins for easier distribution, to indicate that yes, she brought something in order to fulfill the social obligation, but she didn't go to a lot of trouble about it. Unbaked cheesecake is the mediocre "yeah, okay" of desserts in my cultural experience of it.

    Low-end restaurants might have unbaked cheesecake available by the slice in a big plastic case at the front, near the cash register. It may be served with a dollop of canned pie filling on top. In such establishments, cubed Jello is also available, but this version of cheesecake would be seen as the slightly fancier option.

    If I were at a restaurant that had a dessert menu offering cheesecake, I would expect to receive baked cheesecake. To receive unbaked cheesecake would be slightly unpleasant and almost somewhat deceptive, as if you'd ordered roast beef and received some kind of baked hamburger on the technicality that it was "beef" that had been "roasted." I would never go back to that restaurant again.


    I'm sorry for the slap with the glove, madam, it is protocol. If you would step outside, I have a rapier waiting for you. If you would prefer to send for your own, I shall wait. As serious as your insult is, I will allow this to be to the first blood. Please, pick up your weapon and en garde!

    There is a difference between a back of the package, no-bake slice of fat and sugar and a proper cheesecake set by the cold. Just as there are atrocious baked cheesecakes, there are sublime non-baked ones. It is about the recipe and the skill of the maker, not heat v cooling.

    I didn't say a NY cheesecake* was the best method of making one. Some foods become associated with certain places. New York has cheesecake and pizza. There are other claimants and a very good case why the best comes from elsewhere, but the association is very strong.

    As far as your experience with no bake vs a proper one, compare a jello "pudding" with a pot de creme. They might look similar, but there is no comparison. Or an Pilsbury "crecent" roll with a proper croissant.


    *I like an NY style, but damn, Americans do not know when to say when with the sugar. The German Käsekuchen is very similar, but with ~ half of the sugar.
  • I await the day that lilbuddha's heart explodes in a rage over cheesecake.
    Do you work at being stupid, or is it natural to you? There is not one drop of anger in my part of this discussion.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    As someone who's made pretty damn good unbaked cheesecakes - all fresh ingredients, assembled with care and flair, I'm right behind @lilbuddha with the flexed rapier.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    ... but I will point out that a cheesecake isn't a cake. It's a tart. Or maybe a pie.

    What witchcraft is this?! No sides = not a tart. No sides and no lid = not a pie. Flour, eggs, sugar and fat baked in the oven = some kind of cake.

    There is no flour in NY cheesecake. It's cream cheese, sour cream, sugar, and eggs, with vanilla and sometimes other things for flavoring, with a crust made of graham crackers, butter, and sugar. So it's sort of like custard? But heavier.

    Also, pie doesn't have to have a lid. Pumpkin pie has no top crust, and neither do pecan pie and key lime pie.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    *I like an NY style, but damn, Americans do not know when to say when with the sugar. The German Käsekuchen is very similar, but with ~ half of the sugar.

    We put too much sugar in everything. I've been cutting the sugar in recipes for decades. When they came out with low-sugar ketchup, I rejoiced.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Also, pie doesn't have to have a lid. Pumpkin pie has no top crust, and neither do pecan pie and key lime pie.

    Not to mention all the cream and meringue pies.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Thanks - I knew there were more but I was blanking.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    ... but I will point out that a cheesecake isn't a cake. It's a tart. Or maybe a pie.

    What witchcraft is this?! No sides = not a tart. No sides and no lid = not a pie. Flour, eggs, sugar and fat baked in the oven = some kind of cake.

    There is no flour in NY cheesecake. It's cream cheese, sour cream, sugar, and eggs, with vanilla and sometimes other things for flavoring, with a crust made of graham crackers, butter, and sugar. So it's sort of like custard? But heavier.

    Also, pie doesn't have to have a lid. Pumpkin pie has no top crust, and neither do pecan pie and key lime pie.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    *I like an NY style, but damn, Americans do not know when to say when with the sugar. The German Käsekuchen is very similar, but with ~ half of the sugar.

    We put too much sugar in everything. I've been cutting the sugar in recipes for decades. When they came out with low-sugar ketchup, I rejoiced.

    The recipe for NY cheesecake I have contains flour. I suspect the pie top disagreement relates to a pond difference.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Sorry to double post. Also for a European cheesecake I would use something like mascarpone not a Philadelphia style cream cheese. May be Qwark

    All three are "fresh" dairy products, as is fromage blanc. They are mild, unaged soft cheeses, marscapone even being categorised as a cream cheese.
    Again, waddle, quack:duck.
    Your separation seems artificial.

    Once again professional and cultural definitions. If you sit down in a restaurant and order Cheesecake you will expect one of the ones I mentioned. Anything different you would expect to be clarified
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The recipe for NY cheesecake I have contains flour. I suspect the pie top disagreement relates to a pond difference.

    I'm curious about that recipe - where is it from? Even the King Arthur (premium flour purveyor) recipe has no flour in it.

    And do the kinds of one-crust mousethief and I mentioned have a second crust in the UK? Or are they just not served? It's hard for me to imagine them with a top crust, and with a meringue pie it just wouldn't work.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    In the UK I think a single-crusted confection would usually be described as a tart.
  • They would not have a top crust and would be called ‘pie’, in the case of pecan pie or lemon meringue pie, but would probably be described as a tart. Clear as mud :)
  • Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Sorry to double post. Also for a European cheesecake I would use something like mascarpone not a Philadelphia style cream cheese. May be Qwark

    All three are "fresh" dairy products, as is fromage blanc. They are mild, unaged soft cheeses, marscapone even being categorised as a cream cheese.
    Again, waddle, quack:duck.
    Your separation seems artificial.

    Once again professional and cultural definitions. If you sit down in a restaurant and order Cheesecake you will expect one of the ones I mentioned. Anything different you would expect to be clarified
    Käsekuchen means cheesecake. Käse is German for cheese. Kuchen is German for cake. Put together, Käsekuchen is German for cheesecake. The recipe is very similar to the American version. The taste would sit fine amongst the variations of NY cheesecake that one can find in New York, much less all the variations one finds elsewhere called NY cheesecake.
    Not allowing that to be cheesecake is like saying soccer can't be football because the name is different.
    Unless one is in a restaurant that specializes in imported America food, if you order cheesecake in Germany, you will get Käsekuchen. Which is cheesecake.
    If you still maintain that professional pastry chefs would disqualify a dessert made in Europe that fits the parameters of a baked cheesecake in America, then fine.
    It is stupid, but fine.

  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    They would not have a top crust and would be called ‘pie’, in the case of pecan pie or lemon meringue pie, but would probably be described as a tart. Clear as mud :)

    Pond difference. In the UK pies are small (in diameter) and may be covered or open; tarts are large and may be covered or open. In the US, tarts are small and pies large (again in diameter) and may be covered or open. Which explains the bemusement of US (and CanadaiN0 readers of dated British fiction who read about roving CHristmas carolers being given (covered) mince pies as a reward for singing -- giving each an american-type pie (which would serve 6-8 at the table) is hard to imagine.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Both tarts and pies can be small or large in the UK. Jam tarts are almost always small, for example.
  • In the UK I think a single-crusted confection would usually be described as a tart.

    Every single lemon meringue pie I have eaten in the UK has been described as "pie", and has consisted of a pastry or biscuit base, lemon filling, and meringue top. Mince pies are often made without a top crust.

    I also find the idea of a cheesecake made with flour a little odd.
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