@MaryLouise, I guess that's one of those examples of a woman promoting shoddy attitudes that come out of the patriarchal system. Similar to those women that defended Trump's pussy-grabbing comments. So yeah, definitely not reverse-sexism. Men and women both can either enable or challenge the patriarchal system. You'd hope it's in most our interests to challenge it, but there are those that don't realise this, feel uncomfortable about rocking the boat, or feel like they have too much power to lose.
More generally (not just around gender), what the pandemic has highlighted is just how skewed our whole system of what-we-value-by-what-we-pay-people is. Turns out key-workers are invaluable to society, but our economic system says otherwise.
Pay isn't just to do with importance, though - it also has to do with the rarity of the skills the person is viewed as having. World-class footballers aren't paid huge sums of money because professional football is necessary or important - they're paid it because they're just a little bit better at football than the next man, and there's lots of money in football for top teams.
By contrast, people who stack shelves in supermarkets are a completely essential part of our lives. But they're also interchangeable with basically any other person, who could start productive work immediately after being hired.
I was simply suggesting it might have been the wrong forum for the discussion the OP was hoping to take place. Of course, the OP loses control of the discussion once they click "post comment".
Wasn't it also Hugal who started the discussion that was summarily cancelled from Epiphanies? At any rate, a discussion that touched on some of the same subjects was terminated and ruled out of scope for Epiphanies.
At any rate, it's quite apparent that when Hugal started the thread, he was feeling pissed off about his treatment by the women he works with. We've had any number of good discussions over the years that have started with someone complaining in Hell.
If Hugal wanted a positive discussion of men, I wonder why he started a Hell thread?
I put it in hell because I was ranting. Hell is the home for rants. I have started positive threads about men on some of the other boards and it always ends up at the point we are now. Sexism favouring men takes over the conversation. This threads has developed fairly well.
I have stood my ground on being positive about men. Stating there is a way to go but that things are changing . If we are positive about the things men do right, not with a pat on the head, but by just not hitting us all the time things may change quicker. That mostly gets pushed to one side.
Have I answered your query?
I was simply suggesting it might have been the wrong forum for the discussion the OP was hoping to take place. Of course, the OP loses control of the discussion once they click "post comment".
Wasn't it also Hugal who started the discussion that was summarily cancelled from Epiphanies? At any rate, a discussion that touched on some of the same subjects was terminated and ruled out of scope for Epiphanies.
At any rate, it's quite apparent that when Hugal started the thread, he was feeling pissed off about his treatment by the women he works with. We've had any number of good discussions over the years that have started with someone complaining in Hell.
No it was not. Someone that thread as result of my International Men’s day thread. I did not start it.
The woman at work we’re used as a reply to a specific post from Gwai. My OP was more general and was not specifically about those women, but my experiences over the years in different situations of life.
Hopefully that clears things up.
Discussion about men always goes the same way here. It always leads to certain posters bringing up the same arguments and Making the same points over again. We can never have a positive discussion about men because of sexism. Never mind that things are changing, slowly yes, but changing. Never mind that many men are trying to be less sexist, never mind that they are taking a greater role in bringing up children and much more, because no matter how much change they try to make someone always to squash it. Let’s talk about and change the bad, but celebrate the good. Changing centuries of behaviour is never going to happen tomorrow.
Let’s try and build positive images of men instead of pulling them down.
And no men do not need a pat on the back for doing those things I listed, neither do they need kicking in the balls
I don't think anyone in these conversation truly objects to posting positive things about men. We disagree on what those things are. Things like International Men's Day miss the mark.
No things like International Men’s Day hit the mark. I am sure you know what self fulfilling prophecies are. Men are constantly told they are sexist. They are the cause of sexism. We get a lot of negative stuff thrown at us. That leads to negative reactions. Positive views of men picking what is good leads to positive actions. If we celebrate what men are doing well it will encourage men to be better.
Answer the questions I have about the six pillars. They are legitimate.
I agree that we should celebrate positive behaviours in men. I don't agree that International Men's Day is that.
But celebrating the good does not mean ignoring the problems.
I do this so that everyone else can get on with celebrating International Women’s Day and using it to raise awareness of the issues that affect women. And trying to achieve equality,” Herring told i.
“Just like the men who ask when International Men’s Day is could do on International Men’s Day for men, but generally don’t
I really like Richard Herring - but it's interesting to note that he has received some criticism. He's been doing it for years, but more recently he's been accused of 'highjacking' International Women's Day for publicity and making it about him / fighting women's battles for them. I'm in two minds about this. On the surface it's slightly harsh, as he was raising money for Shelter, and I think genuinely trying to do a good thing. But there is a point where men should shut up and let women do the talking. Maybe it's time he passed the mantle on to a woman to take over his tweet project. I like that last year he scheduled the tweets for International Men's Day - it's nice that he's using it to challenge toxic masculinity and raise awareness for male mental health as well.
Discussion about men always goes the same way here. It always leads to certain posters bringing up the same arguments and Making the same points over again. We can never have a positive discussion about men because of sexism. Never mind that things are changing, slowly yes, but changing. Never mind that many men are trying to be less sexist, never mind that they are taking a greater role in bringing up children and much more, because no matter how much change they try to make someone always to squash it. Let’s talk about and change the bad, but celebrate the good. Changing centuries of behaviour is never going to happen tomorrow.
Let’s try and build positive images of men instead of pulling them down.
And no men do not need a pat on the back for doing those things I listed, neither do they need kicking in the balls
I don't think anyone in these conversation truly objects to posting positive things about men. We disagree on what those things are. Things like International Men's Day miss the mark.
No things like International Men’s Day hit the mark. I am sure you know what self fulfilling prophecies are. Men are constantly told they are sexist. They are the cause of sexism. We get a lot of negative stuff thrown at us. That leads to negative reactions. Positive views of men picking what is good leads to positive actions. If we celebrate what men are doing well it will encourage men to be better.
Answer the questions I have about the six pillars. They are legitimate.
I agree that we should celebrate positive behaviours in men. I don't agree that International Men's Day is that.
But celebrating the good does not mean ignoring the problems.
I have always said things are not right yet, but getting better. I think things will get better if there are positivities as well as negatives. You always talk about the negatives more and tend to give a sentence to the positives. There will be more negatives than Positives but some encouragement rather than mostly telling us how bad we are we are more often then not may help.
What questions about the 6 pillars you said things like this is good that is good, that is not quite right so you answered your own questions. I genially do not understand what you mean.
If we we want to avoid being accused of mansplaining or womansplaining, I suggest bearing in mind that (a) none of us knows everything and not all of what we think we know is correct, (b) matters of individual taste are just that, and (c) saying less is often wiser.
Well, yes.
I do have a problem with saying less and just listening though. And not just on gender issues.
Let me give you a couple of examples.
I am one of a 5% minority of men at work, and frequently am subject to sexist comments and exclusion. Mostly I don't say anything at work. But I go home and tell my family and friends and fellow worshippers how sexist my workplace is and how much it upsets me. Everyone knows except the people who are doing it.
When I have tried to talk about my experience to people at work, I have been told that I am mansplaining sexism to women.
I've been to several of the local BLM meetings. I went with the intention of just listening and learning. I did this. Afterwards, people in my (mainly white) church (hey, it's Norfolk) asked me about the meetings. I told them that all of the historical examples of liberation struggles that were used in the BLM meetings were violent ones, and that there had been persistent calls for the abolition of the police, that there were rhetorical fantasies of what they would do to the police once they were in charge.
When I have tried to comment on my concerns on a linked forum, I have been firmly advised on the limits of the role of 'allies' - just to listen, ,learn and support.
I really don't know what to do. It's all very well staying quiet in the moment, but one often shares things later with friends.
Asher
I find the most effective way of responding to comments like that in the workplace is either to repeat them back to the speaker word for word or just say that's not very kind then change the subject. Without knowing more your team it's difficult to know whether all the men on it are having the same experience or it's just a personality thing.
That is the role of an ally - listen, learn and support. This can be challenging for those who are more used to be the ones who are listened too / doing the leading. Get over it.
I live in the stockbroker belt - white, moneyed, middle class, yadda, yadda. Despite that, my tiny church has multiple nationalities and generations. I consider myself blessed to be alongside them.
When I talk to black friends who are active in BLM many of them are angry. Given the way they've been treated, that's not a great surprise. It's righteous anger and a cry for justice. All perfectly Biblical. You don't seem to have done much listening or learning. More judging and dismissing.
The other men in my work place join in with the sexist insults, even labelling themselves 'useless men' in otherwise all female groups. I'm sure that this kind of dynamic is not unknown to you..
More substantively on allies. Whether or not I have done much listening and learning, I am still trying, and am involved in the local BLM group.
You suggest that my attempts to raise concerns are 'judging and dismissing'. Does this mean you cast the role of the ally as that of an 'uncritical friend'? Is this correct?
Thank you for your helpful advice on repeating back.
@goperryrevs might part of the difficulty have to do with conflating certain terms or false comparisons?
Some years ago, a group of us were on a plant-collecting field trip run by a female botanist. One of the women students cut her foot with a digging spade, a flesh wound that bled profusely. The botanist was sympathetic and offered to drive her to the nearest hospital. At that moment, a young man standing next to me went very pale, began to sway back and forth and said he might faint, he couldn't stand the sight of blood. To our astonishment, the botanist shouted at him to stop being such a 'wimp' and 'to man up'. I helped him to a nearby seat and brought him a glass of water.
His friend said this abusive outburst was 'reverse sexism' and I disagreed. The woman botanist was shaming him for not behaving like a man, for not being enough of a man. I can't think of any direct equivalent that would apply to women because this was about masculinity and the ways in which men are punished for not performing the male roles prescribed for them. If the term 'reverse sexism' is used, it obscures the specificity of what happened there. When some of us confronted the woman botanist, she brushed off our outrage and said 'Grown men shouldn't behave like babies'. She couldn't see what was wrong with what she had said, this was how she had been raised in a military family.
I'm thinking through what you said about ' this kind of blurring between the discussion of the systematic injustices, and the experiences of the individual' and how we address both in ways appropriate and commensurate within a social context.
I wouldn't say that's "reverse" sexism, but just plain old garden-variety sexism. She is defending gender-essentialism and the patriarchy's party line. She is doing women no favors, that's for sure. But of course by saying this I'm mansplaining.
I really like Richard Herring - but it's interesting to note that he has received some criticism. He's been doing it for years, but more recently he's been accused of 'highjacking' International Women's Day for publicity and making it about him / fighting women's battles for them. I'm in two minds about this. On the surface it's slightly harsh, as he was raising money for Shelter, and I think genuinely trying to do a good thing. But there is a point where men should shut up and let women do the talking. Maybe it's time he passed the mantle on to a woman to take over his tweet project. I like that last year he scheduled the tweets for International Men's Day - it's nice that he's using it to challenge toxic masculinity and raise awareness for male mental health as well.
When it comes to raising money for good causes, I personally am not too particular about the source.
If you got rid of the people in charity who do it for their own promotion, there would be a pittance raised. Straight up.
The ridiculous part of the idea that Herring should step aside is that there is no need. He is not the only person allowed to raise money for Shelter.
What questions about the 6 pillars you said things like this is good that is good, that is not quite right so you answered your own questions. I genially do not understand what you mean.
I gave my reasons why the six pillars are problematic.To me, they make International Men's Day problematic, even aside from the basic premise.
I am curious as to your view of those pillars.
Again, "Let's celebrate Men!" has similar overtones to "Let's celebrate White people!"
I really like Richard Herring - but it's interesting to note that he has received some criticism. He's been doing it for years, but more recently he's been accused of 'highjacking' International Women's Day for publicity and making it about him / fighting women's battles for them. I'm in two minds about this. On the surface it's slightly harsh, as he was raising money for Shelter, and I think genuinely trying to do a good thing. But there is a point where men should shut up and let women do the talking. Maybe it's time he passed the mantle on to a woman to take over his tweet project. I like that last year he scheduled the tweets for International Men's Day - it's nice that he's using it to challenge toxic masculinity and raise awareness for male mental health as well.
When it comes to raising money for good causes, I personally am not too particular about the source.
If you got rid of the people in charity who do it for their own promotion, there would be a pittance raised. Straight up.
The ridiculous part of the idea that Herring should step aside is that there is no need. He is not the only person allowed to raise money for Shelter.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s the raising charity money that is the issue; and as I said, I’m in two minds. In general I think he does really good stuff. He’s good at promoting diversity on his podcast too, with the fellow comedians he interviews.
The criticism is that on International Women’s Day, the focus is self-evidently meant to be on women. But every year, a bit of that focus gets pulled and put on Richard Herring instead. There’s the yearly news article on what Richard Herring achieves on International Women’s Day, rather than what women have achieved.
The good thing is that he’s raising awareness, but to an extent he is pulling focus. I have some sympathy with this viewpoint, at the same time as admiring what he’s done. I’ve come across women who applaud him for it, and others who are frustrated by it. I can see both sides.
Again, "Let's celebrate Men!" has similar overtones to "Let's celebrate White people!"
Again, I disagree on this. I don’t think race and gender are as analogous or work under the exact same principles as you assert.
I think I'm taking lilbuddha's side on this one. Men don't need a special day celebrating the accomplishments of notable men, any more than white people need one. Because most of the people whose accomplishments we celebrate are white and male.
Society would certainly benefit from more role models for men that didn't partake of toxic masculinity, but I don't see a "men's day" as being a sensible way of drawing attention to such people.
Again, "Let's celebrate Men!" has similar overtones to "Let's celebrate White people!"
Again, I disagree on this. I don’t think race and gender are as analogous or work under the exact same principles as you assert.
Not exact, but close.
What are we celebrating? Men not being dicks? Men being the decent human beings they should be? Pretty close to celebrating white people for not being racist, IMO.The only difference I see, off-hand, is that more men suffer from sexism than white people suffer from racism.
But celebrate?
Did you raise your children by giving them cookies every time they didn't intentionally smash the crockery or set fire to the house?
At work, were you ever promoted for not cocking up a project? Given a raise for basic competency?
Celebrate positive role models instead of the toxic ones typically lauded now? I'd check that box.
Reward positive behaviour rather than negative behaviour? I'd check that box as well.
Otherwise, celebrate men when women still suffer the brunt of sexism is a bit of an ask. And kinda misses the point as well as lends itself to Men's Rights bullshit.
Look at the six pillars of International Men's Day. That is the sort of mess that makes this whole thing problematic.
While we might fight like ferrets in a sack on other occasions, lB has it right here.
Celebrating men cooking for their families, cleaning up after their families, caring for their kids and their elderly parents, volunteering in the community, teaching the next generation formally and informally? That's kind of what women are expected to do, as well as often working outside the home.
Yes, young men need role models - the very best of those are the ones that show them that there's no such thing as "women's work", and they treat women as respected equals, not as some "other".
While we might fight like ferrets in a sack on other occasions, lB has it right here.
Celebrating men cooking for their families, cleaning up after their families, caring for their kids and their elderly parents, volunteering in the community, teaching the next generation formally and informally? That's kind of what women are expected to do, as well as often working outside the home.
Politically this may be 100% right on, but as far as knowledge of human motivation, and how to mold human behavior, it gets a big fat 0. You want people to do something? You praise them for doing it. Works for dogs, works for children, works for men. You want to extinguish behavior? You ignore it.
So Black people and women need to give cookies to white people and men for doing the right thing, despite the utter exhaustion they feel as the result of racism and sexism? Will they get praise for that?
Come on. Men are not children, nor dogs. Or shouldn't be. Grow the fuck up and do the right thing because it's the right thing.
Ok, while we’re talking straw men, when did I say anything about cooking and cleaning? I was simply disagreeing that “let’s celebrate men” is in the same vein as “let’s celebrate white people”.
Here’s why: In short, I think we should celebrate diversity. One of the ways that we as human being are diverse is in our genders. There are physiological differences that mean that even if one day we had true equality, this will not be through equity. Granted, these differences are less important than what unites us, but let’s celebrate them anyway. And even now, without equality, celebration is about valuing people - not vindicating every behaviour of any group of people.
On the other hand ‘white people’ as a group is essentially a meaningless construct - as @lilbuddha has said, those racist ‘scientific’ myths of the past with regards to tangible differences resulting from melanin tones are false. With skin colour, equality ultimately looks like equity.
But we do have diversity in our cultures. So, let’s celebrate British culture, and Bangladeshi culture, and Jamaican culture, and all the other cultures we have. Again, celebration is not vindication - celebrating British culture does not mean that I don’t think there are negative attributes to British culture that need challenging. But “let’s celebrate French culture” means something, whereas “let’s celebrate white people” doesn’t.
On a personal level, I’d flip it on its head, and ask why we shouldn’t celebrate men? As someone who in general despises a lot of the corporate attitudes of my own gender, and who prefers female over male (see transgender leanings), I actually need reminding that ‘male’ isn't totally flawed as a concept, and that there are ways that being a man can be great - positive models of male behaviour.
Given that we live in a time where a lot of men have deep-rooted insecurities and mental health problems, male suicide levels are where they are, do we really want to tell them that they’re not even allowed to celebrate the fact that they happen to be born with a Y-chromosome? For me, that feels like piling guilt on guilt.
As for the pillars of International Men’s Day, I don’t know much about it, but from what you’ve said, @lilbuddha, I wouldn’t disagree with your analysis - other than on this one point. I think we should celebrate men, just as we should celebrate all people - women, transgender, non-binary etc. too. It’s as simple as saying all people are valuable and matter.
I wouldn't say that's "reverse" sexism, but just plain old garden-variety sexism. She is defending gender-essentialism and the patriarchy's party line. She is doing women no favors, that's for sure. But of course by saying this I'm mansplaining.
@mousethief well you could use a broad sweeping generalisation and risk another analogy with the sexism experienced by women. And ignore the impact of patriarchy on men as being different. Not the same-as, not worse, but different.
When we keep using sociological terms as catch-all phrases, we end up either minimising what happens to women in society or trying to include men under a rubric that doesn't fit. Hence the vicious circle of 'special pleading' and shallow, superficial arguments all to do with resentment and grievance.
While I was thinking about the incident I described, I recalled that at about the same time I read Kafka's letter to his father (warning: pdf) which was the first time I had a glimpse into one of the most heartbreaking and cruel relationships centred on what it means to be a son who cannot face becoming his father, and who understands himself to be irreparably destroyed as a man because of his childhood. That indictment of the patriarchal father still holds true today. I believe that in order to talk about men and masculinity with empathy, we need to find more specificity and depth, a language commensurate with what individual men suffer in a system designed for their benefit .
Kafka: "What was always incomprehensible to me was your total lack of feeling for the suffering and shame you could inflict on me with your words and judgments. It was as though you had no notion of your power. "
What dynamic? I'm not asking women to praise men. What dynamic? You haven't read what I said right, and you are ascribing to me a belief I do not hold, and then arguing against that. That is a straw man.
I don't want women to celebrate men. I want men to be able to encourage each other and celebrate each others' successes. Encouragement to keep doing good is a well-established pattern. It's how AA works. It's how many weight-loss plans work. It's an important motivator in therapy groups. But when it comes to men, it apparently is horrible. I don't get it.
Celebrating diversity is all very well, but I'd personally much rather celebrate solidarity and unity. Yes, we're different, but our differences are being used to divide us and make us less able to resist the powerful and corrupt.
To me, this is why sexism is stupid, and why feminism necessary. Only when men stand with women for equal pay, equal treatment in the workplace and outside it - and start behaving as if they believed that themselves - will we have something to celebrate.
Celebrating diversity is all very well, but I'd personally much rather celebrate solidarity and unity. Yes, we're different, but our differences are being used to divide us and make us less able to resist the powerful and corrupt.
To me, this is why sexism is stupid, and why feminism necessary. Only when men stand with women for equal pay, equal treatment in the workplace and outside it - and start behaving as if they believed that themselves - will we have something to celebrate.
Men do. Or do you mean "all men"? No such thing as a partial victory in your world, then, it's either 0% or 100% ?
A call for unity is exactly that. You managed to make it a cause for division. This is precisely why we can't have nice things - because you, personally, are a dick about them.
I don't want women to celebrate men. I want men to be able to encourage each other and celebrate each others' successes. Encouragement to keep doing good is a well-established pattern. It's how AA works. It's how many weight-loss plans work. It's an important motivator in therapy groups. But when it comes to men, it apparently is horrible. I don't get it.
It is also how Man v Fat works. Celebrating the positive is not the same as giving praise to men for their contribution.
LB I will give your ideas thought before I reply. As you did not ask any questions directly I took it as a statement of your opinion and your reasonings
If we we want to avoid being accused of mansplaining or womansplaining, I suggest bearing in mind that (a) none of us knows everything and not all of what we think we know is correct, (b) matters of individual taste are just that, and (c) saying less is often wiser.
Well, yes.
I do have a problem with saying less and just listening though. And not just on gender issues.
Let me give you a couple of examples.
I am one of a 5% minority of men at work, and frequently am subject to sexist comments and exclusion. Mostly I don't say anything at work. But I go home and tell my family and friends and fellow worshippers how sexist my workplace is and how much it upsets me. Everyone knows except the people who are doing it.
When I have tried to talk about my experience to people at work, I have been told that I am mansplaining sexism to women.
I've been to several of the local BLM meetings. I went with the intention of just listening and learning. I did this. Afterwards, people in my (mainly white) church (hey, it's Norfolk) asked me about the meetings. I told them that all of the historical examples of liberation struggles that were used in the BLM meetings were violent ones, and that there had been persistent calls for the abolition of the police, that there were rhetorical fantasies of what they would do to the police once they were in charge.
When I have tried to comment on my concerns on a linked forum, I have been firmly advised on the limits of the role of 'allies' - just to listen, ,learn and support.
I really don't know what to do. It's all very well staying quiet in the moment, but one often shares things later with friends.
Asher
I find the most effective way of responding to comments like that in the workplace is either to repeat them back to the speaker word for word or just say that's not very kind then change the subject. Without knowing more your team it's difficult to know whether all the men on it are having the same experience or it's just a personality thing.
That is the role of an ally - listen, learn and support. This can be challenging for those who are more used to be the ones who are listened too / doing the leading. Get over it.
I live in the stockbroker belt - white, moneyed, middle class, yadda, yadda. Despite that, my tiny church has multiple nationalities and generations. I consider myself blessed to be alongside them.
When I talk to black friends who are active in BLM many of them are angry. Given the way they've been treated, that's not a great surprise. It's righteous anger and a cry for justice. All perfectly Biblical. You don't seem to have done much listening or learning. More judging and dismissing.
The other men in my work place join in with the sexist insults, even labelling themselves 'useless men' in otherwise all female groups. I'm sure that this kind of dynamic is not unknown to you..
More substantively on allies. Whether or not I have done much listening and learning, I am still trying, and am involved in the local BLM group.
You suggest that my attempts to raise concerns are 'judging and dismissing'. Does this mean you cast the role of the ally as that of an 'uncritical friend'? Is this correct?
Thank you for your helpful advice on repeating back.
Asher
I'm the wrong person to ask for workplace advice as I haven't seen my colleges for months unless Zoom counts. I try to do the best job I can during the working day and remember the commandments about loving your neighbour whilst I'm there. And enjoy myself out of work.
There's loads of stuff on how to be a good ally. I found this particularly helpful.
If Hugal wanted a positive discussion of men, I wonder why he started a Hell thread?
I put it in hell because I was ranting. Hell is the home for rants. I have started positive threads about men on some of the other boards and it always ends up at the point we are now. Sexism favouring men takes over the conversation. This threads has developed fairly well.
I have stood my ground on being positive about men. Stating there is a way to go but that things are changing . If we are positive about the things men do right, not with a pat on the head, but by just not hitting us all the time things may change quicker. That mostly gets pushed to one side.
Have I answered your query?
It is important to be positive about the 'things men do right', if one can do it in a meaningful way that doesn't make it look as if one is merely saying 'well done you, for being a decently behaved human being.'
As a woman who has often found herself the only 'she' in a room of 'he', one of my greatest wishes was not to be congratulated or celebrated for doing my job capably or for saying something sensible in a meeting, as if I've just performed remarkably against all expectations because I'm a 'girl'. Even being told quite sincerely how 'brave' it is for me to have gone into a male-centred occupation, or to have 'girl power' comments made to give genuine encouragement, I find rather embarrassing and detracting. My greatest wish is for my sex to have no real bearing on my being there at all!
I guess, some people baulk at the idea of further 'celebrating' and 'encouraging' men for their behaviour; after thousands of years of celebrating men's achievements in the patriarchal-ordered civilizations, from which women's participation was on principle excluded! I think there has to be a way where we can affirm progressive attitudes - for both men and women - without either making it look like a patronising reward, or as yet another demonstration of one sex's superiority over another.
And just to say, I'm glad Hugal had his rant here in Hell. I think this thread has certainly helped me think through a few things.
The idea of praising men for doing basic things right seems very insulting to me. And doubly insulting if non-men are expected to do it. Hey @Bullfrog good job getting the kids ready for school today!
It's like praising an able-bodied teenager for walking.
There are stages in life when it's appropriate to praise someone for trying to walk, but most people don't spend their whole lives in that stage. Obviously with an exception for folks with disabilities.
Being male shouldn't be a disability. Or is it? The way some folks act I wonder.
I'm not sure who is actually advocating praising men for doing basic things right. I'm certainly not, I didn't get the impression @mousethief was either. And to be doubly clear, I'm not a fan of it as an idea either.
Like @Anselmina and her experience in the workplace, I as a single dad was nonplussed by the number of times I'd be congratulated for being able to plait my daughter's hair, as if it was some kind of miracle - I know @Doc Tor, you've said you had similar experiences too.
I don't want women to celebrate men. I want men to be able to encourage each other and celebrate each others' successes. Encouragement to keep doing good is a well-established pattern. It's how AA works. It's how many weight-loss plans work. It's an important motivator in therapy groups. But when it comes to men, it apparently is horrible. I don't get it.
It is also how Man v Fat works. Celebrating the positive is not the same as giving praise to men for their contribution.
That is a very specific, goal oriented programme. Quite different from thing like International Men's day.
I don't want women to celebrate men. I want men to be able to encourage each other and celebrate each others' successes.
looks at this suggestion, looks at what exists now. hmmm Gets magnifying glass; looks at this suggestion, looks at what exists now. hmmm Gets out microscope; looks at this suggestion, looks at what exists now. hmmm. Gets out electron-microscope...
Encouragement to keep doing good is a well-established pattern. It's how AA works. It's how many weight-loss plans work. It's an important motivator in therapy groups. But when it comes to men, it apparently is horrible. I don't get it.[/quote]
Specific programmes, with specific goals peopled by men who have problems and know it.
Grow the fuck up and do the right thing because it's the right thing.
The thing is, people suck. People don't often "do the right thing because it's the right thing". Sure, people say that that's what they want to do, right up until the point where the "right thing" takes some actual effort, or risk, or sacrifice, and then what they do is take the easy route.
If a pat on the head and a chocolate drop would help people do the right thing, I'd be all for it. But like others, I don't think that praising men for what we agree should be normal behaviour is likely to be productive. Better examples of decent men, and an absence of bad examples, sure - but that's something a bit different.
A call for unity is exactly that. You managed to make it a cause for division. This is precisely why we can't have nice things - because you, personally, are a dick about them.
I'm not sure who is actually advocating praising men for doing basic things right. I'm certainly not, I didn't get the impression @mousethief was either. And to be doubly clear, I'm not a fan of it as an idea either.
I don't want women to celebrate men. I want men to be able to encourage each other and celebrate each others' successes.
looks at this suggestion, looks at what exists now. hmmm Gets magnifying glass; looks at this suggestion, looks at what exists now. hmmm Gets out microscope; looks at this suggestion, looks at what exists now. hmmm. Gets out electron-microscope...
Encouragement to keep doing good is a well-established pattern. It's how AA works. It's how many weight-loss plans work. It's an important motivator in therapy groups. But when it comes to men, it apparently is horrible. I don't get it.
Specific programmes, with specific goals peopled by men who have problems and know it.
Are men not supposed to admit they are sexist due to being steeped in a sexist society, just as white people are to admit they are racist, and then try to do something about it? Has this changed? When did the memo come out?
Grow the fuck up and do the right thing because it's the right thing.
"Just Do It" makes a great shoe commercial but it's now how real people work. Would you say the same thing to someone trying to lose weight? "Grow the fuck up and eat right and exercise because it's the right thing." Motivating oneself to change one's behavior generally requires more than being told to grow the fuck up and do it. This is naïve to the nth power.
I said that men don’t need to be praised for doing things that there fathers and grandfathers wouldn’t. But encouraging men (any person) will get better results than hitting them. Women can be sexist as well, does need saying because men being sexist is mentioned everywhere. It is not to same extent as men but it is still true.
I still say I don't need to encourage my husband to do the chores. I do thank him though so he knows that I see and appreciate him. He thanks me too.
Right?
Are men toddlers who have no understanding of basic decency that they must be trained by praise?
Speaking of children, my sisters and I didn't get praise for doing what we were expected to. Mum might give a polite thank you, but no parties were held.
I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
I said that men don’t need to be praised for doing things that there fathers and grandfathers wouldn’t. But encouraging men (any person) will get better results than hitting them.
"There is cake in the break room, John didn't harass his assistant today!"
FFS. Joining mousethief in Dichotomy land? There is a long road between party and penance, plenty of places to set up one's camp.
There are positive things to be done, but what you are asking is essentially saying that men getting the majority of positive recognition should still be getting the majority of positive recognition, just for different things.
We don't go around to white people and say "Thank you for not being racist today!" "Hello Mr. Policeman. Thank you for not beating the black person you just arrested."
Women can be sexist as well, does need saying because men being sexist is mentioned everywhere. It is not to same extent as men but it is still true.
That it is true is irrelevant to the "need" to be said.
Sexism, as it exists in our actual, real world, is male driven. Solve that and there will be no opportunities for women to be sexists. In most contexts, emphasising that women can be sexist too is rather like saying that some black people are actually criminals when talking about police treatment of black people.
If a person were to claim that men were more inherently evil or only men could be sexist, then bringing up female sexism is right and proper.
If one is trying to solve the problem in a particular workplace, then it needs to be brought up.
But when talking about the problem of sexism, women being sexist is not so relevant because female sexism is part of the same sexism problem. It is as relevant as saying not all men are sexist. Whilst true, it does nothing to help solve the problem.
Comments
Pay isn't just to do with importance, though - it also has to do with the rarity of the skills the person is viewed as having. World-class footballers aren't paid huge sums of money because professional football is necessary or important - they're paid it because they're just a little bit better at football than the next man, and there's lots of money in football for top teams.
By contrast, people who stack shelves in supermarkets are a completely essential part of our lives. But they're also interchangeable with basically any other person, who could start productive work immediately after being hired.
Wasn't it also Hugal who started the discussion that was summarily cancelled from Epiphanies? At any rate, a discussion that touched on some of the same subjects was terminated and ruled out of scope for Epiphanies.
At any rate, it's quite apparent that when Hugal started the thread, he was feeling pissed off about his treatment by the women he works with. We've had any number of good discussions over the years that have started with someone complaining in Hell.
I put it in hell because I was ranting. Hell is the home for rants. I have started positive threads about men on some of the other boards and it always ends up at the point we are now. Sexism favouring men takes over the conversation. This threads has developed fairly well.
I have stood my ground on being positive about men. Stating there is a way to go but that things are changing . If we are positive about the things men do right, not with a pat on the head, but by just not hitting us all the time things may change quicker. That mostly gets pushed to one side.
Have I answered your query?
No it was not. Someone that thread as result of my International Men’s day thread. I did not start it.
The woman at work we’re used as a reply to a specific post from Gwai. My OP was more general and was not specifically about those women, but my experiences over the years in different situations of life.
Hopefully that clears things up.
I agree that we should celebrate positive behaviours in men. I don't agree that International Men's Day is that.
But celebrating the good does not mean ignoring the problems.
It's possible a Purg thread would have ended up in the same place. The only real difference would have been the level of politeness.
I have always said things are not right yet, but getting better. I think things will get better if there are positivities as well as negatives. You always talk about the negatives more and tend to give a sentence to the positives. There will be more negatives than Positives but some encouragement rather than mostly telling us how bad we are we are more often then not may help.
What questions about the 6 pillars you said things like this is good that is good, that is not quite right so you answered your own questions. I genially do not understand what you mean.
Thank you @Tubbs
The other men in my work place join in with the sexist insults, even labelling themselves 'useless men' in otherwise all female groups. I'm sure that this kind of dynamic is not unknown to you..
More substantively on allies. Whether or not I have done much listening and learning, I am still trying, and am involved in the local BLM group.
You suggest that my attempts to raise concerns are 'judging and dismissing'. Does this mean you cast the role of the ally as that of an 'uncritical friend'? Is this correct?
Thank you for your helpful advice on repeating back.
Asher
I wouldn't say that's "reverse" sexism, but just plain old garden-variety sexism. She is defending gender-essentialism and the patriarchy's party line. She is doing women no favors, that's for sure. But of course by saying this I'm mansplaining.
If you got rid of the people in charity who do it for their own promotion, there would be a pittance raised. Straight up.
The ridiculous part of the idea that Herring should step aside is that there is no need. He is not the only person allowed to raise money for Shelter.
I am curious as to your view of those pillars.
Again, "Let's celebrate Men!" has similar overtones to "Let's celebrate White people!"
The criticism is that on International Women’s Day, the focus is self-evidently meant to be on women. But every year, a bit of that focus gets pulled and put on Richard Herring instead. There’s the yearly news article on what Richard Herring achieves on International Women’s Day, rather than what women have achieved.
The good thing is that he’s raising awareness, but to an extent he is pulling focus. I have some sympathy with this viewpoint, at the same time as admiring what he’s done. I’ve come across women who applaud him for it, and others who are frustrated by it. I can see both sides.
I think I'm taking lilbuddha's side on this one. Men don't need a special day celebrating the accomplishments of notable men, any more than white people need one. Because most of the people whose accomplishments we celebrate are white and male.
Society would certainly benefit from more role models for men that didn't partake of toxic masculinity, but I don't see a "men's day" as being a sensible way of drawing attention to such people.
What are we celebrating? Men not being dicks? Men being the decent human beings they should be? Pretty close to celebrating white people for not being racist, IMO.The only difference I see, off-hand, is that more men suffer from sexism than white people suffer from racism.
But celebrate?
Did you raise your children by giving them cookies every time they didn't intentionally smash the crockery or set fire to the house?
At work, were you ever promoted for not cocking up a project? Given a raise for basic competency?
Celebrate positive role models instead of the toxic ones typically lauded now? I'd check that box.
Reward positive behaviour rather than negative behaviour? I'd check that box as well.
Otherwise, celebrate men when women still suffer the brunt of sexism is a bit of an ask. And kinda misses the point as well as lends itself to Men's Rights bullshit.
Look at the six pillars of International Men's Day. That is the sort of mess that makes this whole thing problematic.
Celebrating men cooking for their families, cleaning up after their families, caring for their kids and their elderly parents, volunteering in the community, teaching the next generation formally and informally? That's kind of what women are expected to do, as well as often working outside the home.
Yes, young men need role models - the very best of those are the ones that show them that there's no such thing as "women's work", and they treat women as respected equals, not as some "other".
Politically this may be 100% right on, but as far as knowledge of human motivation, and how to mold human behavior, it gets a big fat 0. You want people to do something? You praise them for doing it. Works for dogs, works for children, works for men. You want to extinguish behavior? You ignore it.
Come on. Men are not children, nor dogs. Or shouldn't be. Grow the fuck up and do the right thing because it's the right thing.
Here’s why: In short, I think we should celebrate diversity. One of the ways that we as human being are diverse is in our genders. There are physiological differences that mean that even if one day we had true equality, this will not be through equity. Granted, these differences are less important than what unites us, but let’s celebrate them anyway. And even now, without equality, celebration is about valuing people - not vindicating every behaviour of any group of people.
On the other hand ‘white people’ as a group is essentially a meaningless construct - as @lilbuddha has said, those racist ‘scientific’ myths of the past with regards to tangible differences resulting from melanin tones are false. With skin colour, equality ultimately looks like equity.
But we do have diversity in our cultures. So, let’s celebrate British culture, and Bangladeshi culture, and Jamaican culture, and all the other cultures we have. Again, celebration is not vindication - celebrating British culture does not mean that I don’t think there are negative attributes to British culture that need challenging. But “let’s celebrate French culture” means something, whereas “let’s celebrate white people” doesn’t.
On a personal level, I’d flip it on its head, and ask why we shouldn’t celebrate men? As someone who in general despises a lot of the corporate attitudes of my own gender, and who prefers female over male (see transgender leanings), I actually need reminding that ‘male’ isn't totally flawed as a concept, and that there are ways that being a man can be great - positive models of male behaviour.
Given that we live in a time where a lot of men have deep-rooted insecurities and mental health problems, male suicide levels are where they are, do we really want to tell them that they’re not even allowed to celebrate the fact that they happen to be born with a Y-chromosome? For me, that feels like piling guilt on guilt.
As for the pillars of International Men’s Day, I don’t know much about it, but from what you’ve said, @lilbuddha, I wouldn’t disagree with your analysis - other than on this one point. I think we should celebrate men, just as we should celebrate all people - women, transgender, non-binary etc. too. It’s as simple as saying all people are valuable and matter.
What dynamic? I'm not asking women to praise men. What dynamic? You haven't read what I said right, and you are ascribing to me a belief I do not hold, and then arguing against that. That is a straw man.
To me, this is why sexism is stupid, and why feminism necessary. Only when men stand with women for equal pay, equal treatment in the workplace and outside it - and start behaving as if they believed that themselves - will we have something to celebrate.
Men do. Or do you mean "all men"? No such thing as a partial victory in your world, then, it's either 0% or 100% ?
A call for unity is exactly that. You managed to make it a cause for division. This is precisely why we can't have nice things - because you, personally, are a dick about them.
It is also how Man v Fat works. Celebrating the positive is not the same as giving praise to men for their contribution.
LB I will give your ideas thought before I reply. As you did not ask any questions directly I took it as a statement of your opinion and your reasonings
I'm the wrong person to ask for workplace advice as I haven't seen my colleges for months unless Zoom counts.
There's loads of stuff on how to be a good ally. I found this particularly helpful.
It is important to be positive about the 'things men do right', if one can do it in a meaningful way that doesn't make it look as if one is merely saying 'well done you, for being a decently behaved human being.'
As a woman who has often found herself the only 'she' in a room of 'he', one of my greatest wishes was not to be congratulated or celebrated for doing my job capably or for saying something sensible in a meeting, as if I've just performed remarkably against all expectations because I'm a 'girl'. Even being told quite sincerely how 'brave' it is for me to have gone into a male-centred occupation, or to have 'girl power' comments made to give genuine encouragement, I find rather embarrassing and detracting. My greatest wish is for my sex to have no real bearing on my being there at all!
I guess, some people baulk at the idea of further 'celebrating' and 'encouraging' men for their behaviour; after thousands of years of celebrating men's achievements in the patriarchal-ordered civilizations, from which women's participation was on principle excluded! I think there has to be a way where we can affirm progressive attitudes - for both men and women - without either making it look like a patronising reward, or as yet another demonstration of one sex's superiority over another.
And just to say, I'm glad Hugal had his rant here in Hell. I think this thread has certainly helped me think through a few things.
Possibly the goal was a negative discussion of people who categorically criticize men?
There are stages in life when it's appropriate to praise someone for trying to walk, but most people don't spend their whole lives in that stage. Obviously with an exception for folks with disabilities.
Being male shouldn't be a disability. Or is it? The way some folks act I wonder.
Like @Anselmina and her experience in the workplace, I as a single dad was nonplussed by the number of times I'd be congratulated for being able to plait my daughter's hair, as if it was some kind of miracle - I know @Doc Tor, you've said you had similar experiences too.
Encouragement to keep doing good is a well-established pattern. It's how AA works. It's how many weight-loss plans work. It's an important motivator in therapy groups. But when it comes to men, it apparently is horrible. I don't get it.[/quote]
Specific programmes, with specific goals peopled by men who have problems and know it.
The thing is, people suck. People don't often "do the right thing because it's the right thing". Sure, people say that that's what they want to do, right up until the point where the "right thing" takes some actual effort, or risk, or sacrifice, and then what they do is take the easy route.
If a pat on the head and a chocolate drop would help people do the right thing, I'd be all for it. But like others, I don't think that praising men for what we agree should be normal behaviour is likely to be productive. Better examples of decent men, and an absence of bad examples, sure - but that's something a bit different.
This adds what to the conversation?
Mirabile dictu, somebody who can read.
Are men not supposed to admit they are sexist due to being steeped in a sexist society, just as white people are to admit they are racist, and then try to do something about it? Has this changed? When did the memo come out?
"Just Do It" makes a great shoe commercial but it's now how real people work. Would you say the same thing to someone trying to lose weight? "Grow the fuck up and eat right and exercise because it's the right thing." Motivating oneself to change one's behavior generally requires more than being told to grow the fuck up and do it. This is naïve to the nth power.
Are men toddlers who have no understanding of basic decency that they must be trained by praise?
Speaking of children, my sisters and I didn't get praise for doing what we were expected to. Mum might give a polite thank you, but no parties were held.
FFS. Joining mousethief in Dichotomy land? There is a long road between party and penance, plenty of places to set up one's camp.
There are positive things to be done, but what you are asking is essentially saying that men getting the majority of positive recognition should still be getting the majority of positive recognition, just for different things.
We don't go around to white people and say "Thank you for not being racist today!" "Hello Mr. Policeman. Thank you for not beating the black person you just arrested." That it is true is irrelevant to the "need" to be said.
Sexism, as it exists in our actual, real world, is male driven. Solve that and there will be no opportunities for women to be sexists. In most contexts, emphasising that women can be sexist too is rather like saying that some black people are actually criminals when talking about police treatment of black people.
If a person were to claim that men were more inherently evil or only men could be sexist, then bringing up female sexism is right and proper.
If one is trying to solve the problem in a particular workplace, then it needs to be brought up.
But when talking about the problem of sexism, women being sexist is not so relevant because female sexism is part of the same sexism problem. It is as relevant as saying not all men are sexist. Whilst true, it does nothing to help solve the problem.