Womansplaining

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Comments

  • Hugal wrote: »
    I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
    Regardless of the word you use, that is essentially what you are saying.
    That is EXACTLY what International Men's day is.
  • So, you are saying that until women get their full due, men (every man, as an individual, including those who have personally suffered from F on M sexism) out to just shut up and take it? Because it sure sounds like that's what you're saying.

    By the way, "training through praise" is not limited to toddlers. The desire and need for praise, and the ability to change for the better as a result of it, is pretty much baked in to the entire human species.
  • Wow, Dichotomy land has a larger population than I thought. Does it have rides like Disneyland?
  • That's precisely my concern. Why are you dichotomizing this?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
    Regardless of the word you use, that is essentially what you are saying.
    That is EXACTLY what International Men's day is.

    Not true and I made it abundantly clear that it was not what this thread was about, but you couldn’t resist. If you are not going to listen to what I have said I am closing the thread. There is no point in me saying things time and time again if it going to be ignored and the same old things being spouted over and over again. Admin please close the thread. I don’t need asking twice please close it.
  • That's precisely my concern. Why are you dichotomizing this?
    I’m not. You, Hugal and mousethief are. When Doc Tor, a person who is typically closer to Hugal and mousethief on this subject, gets what I* am saying, perhaps you should consider that you are not reading what I am writing.

    *And, frankly, almost all the other participants on this thread.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
    Regardless of the word you use, that is essentially what you are saying.
    That is EXACTLY what International Men's day is.

    Not true and I made it abundantly clear that it was not what this thread was about, but you couldn’t resist. If you are not going to listen to what I have said I am closing the thread. There is no point in me saying things time and time again if it going to be ignored and the same old things being spouted over and over again. Admin please close the thread. I don’t need asking twice please close it.
    You brought up International Men's Day. An event which is emblematic of the problem in addressing sexism.
    I have addressed what you said. ISTM, the problem here is in what you think you are representing by your words and what I think they represent.
    If you actually want to clarify your position and understand mine, you could start with IMD and how your view of it compares and contrasts with mine.
  • Vox populi, m’dear.
  • So let's make list of things that men should be praised for. I'll start.

    1. Making their salaries transparent to their colleagues, so that women know if they're being systematically underpaid.
    2. Insuring that workplace councils/unions have women representatives, and if not, voting for them, or if you are a rep, standing down and letting a woman take your place.
    3. If you're speaking at a conference, check beforehand that there are women speakers in or greater than the proportion of delegates. If not, ask the committee, publicly, why not.
    4. If you're on an all-male panel, and there are women who are just as qualified as you who can speak on the subject, ask them if they'd take your space.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    Grow the fuck up and do the right thing because it's the right thing.

    "Just Do It" makes a great shoe commercial but it's now how real people work. Would you say the same thing to someone trying to lose weight? "Grow the fuck up and eat right and exercise because it's the right thing." Motivating oneself to change one's behavior generally requires more than being told to grow the fuck up and do it. This is naïve to the nth power.

    I wouldn't say anything to someone trying to lose weight in the vast majority of instances. At a Weight Watchers meeting, I'd offer support and encouragement, what works for me, commiseration, etc etc, depending on the specific circumstance. If men want to form little support groups and encourage each other in whatever way works for them, that would be be great.

    But expecting encouragement from the world at large for doing the right thing is what's naive.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    But expecting encouragement from the world at large for doing the right thing is what's naive.

    Again, I have not asked women to encourage men. I want to see men encouraging each other. So far every single person engaging with me has pretended I have said something different.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
    Regardless of the word you use, that is essentially what you are saying.
    That is EXACTLY what International Men's day is.

    Not true and I made it abundantly clear that it was not what this thread was about, but you couldn’t resist. If you are not going to listen to what I have said I am closing the thread. There is no point in me saying things time and time again if it going to be ignored and the same old things being spouted over and over again. Admin please close the thread. I don’t need asking twice please close it.

    Eh, you've been here long enough to know that's not how it works. Once you've posted the OP, anywhere on the Ship, you don't get to control the direction of the thread, and neither can you have it closed if it doesn't develop in the direction you wanted.

    Both those things apply here. You have the straightforward option not to read the thread again: taking a break, temporarily or permanently from a discussion because you find it upsetting or otherwise causing you mental distress is a recommended course of action. Since this is Hell, you don't even need to enter the board.

    The thread will remain open for now, because there's other conversations happening that folk seem to want to respond to.

    DT
    HH
  • Originally posted by lilbuddha:

    You brought up International Men's Day. An event which is emblematic of the problem in addressing sexism.

    IWD is one of the year's highlights for me. I've taken my daughter out for lunch on or around IWD every year since she was 7 or 8. If my husband and son wanted to do likewise around IMD I'd be cheering them on.

    This March, my daughter and I had a whole weekend of celebration, a memory all the more precious since, as it turned out, it was our last out-and-about weekend pre-lockdown. We've been discussing how our experience of IWD this year could translate into IMD.

    Fri night - The Work They Say is Mine - a film about Shetland Women's Knitting, including archival clips and oral history interviews. The audience was about 90% female. A film about, say, Shetland's male fisherman would work just as well, although we suspect that men's history tends to be seen as just "history" and might attract a more mixed audience.

    Sat afternoon - a film about the politicization of Palestinan women's embroidery, followed by a sale of Palestinian handcrafts. The audience was more mixed, as this event also appealed to male and female students. Again a film about men trying to preserve Palestinian culture would work.

    Sat eve - All-female line up at a Comedy Club. The audience include the club's regulars, and so it was about 70% female, 30% male. I suspect it would be difficult to badge an all-male line up as "something different" for IMD.

    Sun afternoon - taster skiff sailing session. Judging by the photos on the club house wall, the club has been mostly male until recently, and doesn't have any difficulty in attracting men. But I'm sure that sports taster sessions for other sports for IMD would work.

    I don't see IMD as emblematic of problems addressing sexism, other than the ongoing issue that it is difficult to badge events as being specifically for IMD, whereas it is easy to badge events as being specifically for IWD.

    I lead Women's Heritage Walks, and we get very few men coming along. Those that do are invariably accompanying their wives. And yet a Heritage Walk which doesn't mention women and is a de facto Men's Heritage Walk gets a mixed audience. History in schools tends to be all about men, with a bolt-on section about the suffragettes. Girls grow thinking that they are supposed to be interested in history-of-men in a way that boys don't grow up thinking that they are supposed to be interested in history that includes women. Hence the difficulty of badging events as "men's events."
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
    Regardless of the word you use, that is essentially what you are saying.
    That is EXACTLY what International Men's day is.

    Not true and I made it abundantly clear that it was not what this thread was about, but you couldn’t resist. If you are not going to listen to what I have said I am closing the thread. There is no point in me saying things time and time again if it going to be ignored and the same old things being spouted over and over again. Admin please close the thread. I don’t need asking twice please close it.

    Eh, you've been here long enough to know that's not how it works. Once you've posted the OP, anywhere on the Ship, you don't get to control the direction of the thread, and neither can you have it closed if it doesn't develop in the direction you wanted.

    Both those things apply here. You have the straightforward option not to read the thread again: taking a break, temporarily or permanently from a discussion because you find it upsetting or otherwise causing you mental distress is a recommended course of action. Since this is Hell, you don't even need to enter the board.

    The thread will remain open for now, because there's other conversations happening that folk seem to want to respond to.

    DT
    HH

    I know I was mixing it up with another site I post on which does close threads if the OP asks. Apologies.
    LB before I mentioned International Men’s Day I said men do not need a pat on the head or get approval for doing everyday jobs. I have said it all through this thread. That appears to have passed you by or maybe you are ignoring it because it doesn’t fit with what you want to say. I made it blindingly obvious. You appear not care about the actual content of this thread but only about having your say. That is not a surprise as it is your usual posting style. I give up you are not listening so I am not going to waste my time.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
    Regardless of the word you use, that is essentially what you are saying.
    That is EXACTLY what International Men's day is.

    Not true and I made it abundantly clear that it was not what this thread was about, but you couldn’t resist. If you are not going to listen to what I have said I am closing the thread. There is no point in me saying things time and time again if it going to be ignored and the same old things being spouted over and over again. Admin please close the thread. I don’t need asking twice please close it.

    Eh, you've been here long enough to know that's not how it works. Once you've posted the OP, anywhere on the Ship, you don't get to control the direction of the thread, and neither can you have it closed if it doesn't develop in the direction you wanted.

    Both those things apply here. You have the straightforward option not to read the thread again: taking a break, temporarily or permanently from a discussion because you find it upsetting or otherwise causing you mental distress is a recommended course of action. Since this is Hell, you don't even need to enter the board.

    The thread will remain open for now, because there's other conversations happening that folk seem to want to respond to.

    DT
    HH

    I know I was mixing it up with another site I post on which does close threads if the OP asks. Apologies.
    LB before I mentioned International Men’s Day I said men do not need a pat on the head or get approval for doing everyday jobs. I have said it all through this thread.
    You've said it, but mentioning International Men's Day contradicts that. ISTM, much of what you've said and implied contradicts it.
    If you have a practical suggestion of how to encourage better behaviour that isn't the equivalent of throwing them biscuits for being merely decent, it would be nice to hear.
    BTW, throwing your dissatisfaction into my lap is rubbish when I am saying nothing different than most of the respondents. If it makes you more comfortable to villainise me, fine. But if it is a way to ignore the, IMO, problems with your approach, not so fine.

    Yes, I would like to have my say, but let's not pretend that I am the only one saying it.
  • I acknowledge current and historic gender injustice. I want to be part of the solution, in the way I personally behave and in the way I interact with others.

    This thread, following others that have ended up in the same place, has prompted me to think about how people change and what helps them change.

    I acknowledge that there are people on this forum who do this stuff for a living, and I am not one of them.

    A cursory half- hour of google yielded some common themes. These generally included support with goal setting, good feedback and support networks.

    So, yes, maybe a pat on the head and a biscuit for behaving like a decent human being would be a good idea where this represents change.

    So yes, maybe setting priorities for change and where progressed celebrated.

    So yes, maybe some posters here would like a space on SoF where support and encouragement could be found.

    I acknowledge the injustice experienced by many here. And there is a place for the strong expression of this. Maybe SoF should just be that place, just for roaring against injustice, rather than contributing to change?

    For me, the ‘shouting at people until they change’ approach, together with the lack of compassion shown on this thread, are counterproductive. It impedes change.

    Asher

    Yesterday, a male neighbour of mine hung himself in his garage. So many people are now shattered - there are children involved. The immediate cause was relationship breakdown. The wider pattern might be thought to include things around false-ideas of self reliance, lack of emotionally intimate friendships. Toxic masculinity.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Asher, I am sorry to hear about your neighbour. I hope everyone affected can get good help, especially the children involved. A neighbour and friend of my mother found her mother's body hanging when she was a child - the effects were life long.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    I never said we should get praise. In fact I have gone out and f my way to say the opposite. are you deliberately ignoring that? It sure seems like it. Please stop saying that it has not been part of this thread until you brought it up.
    Regardless of the word you use, that is essentially what you are saying.
    That is EXACTLY what International Men's day is.

    Not true and I made it abundantly clear that it was not what this thread was about, but you couldn’t resist. If you are not going to listen to what I have said I am closing the thread. There is no point in me saying things time and time again if it going to be ignored and the same old things being spouted over and over again. Admin please close the thread. I don’t need asking twice please close it.

    Eh, you've been here long enough to know that's not how it works. Once you've posted the OP, anywhere on the Ship, you don't get to control the direction of the thread, and neither can you have it closed if it doesn't develop in the direction you wanted.

    Both those things apply here. You have the straightforward option not to read the thread again: taking a break, temporarily or permanently from a discussion because you find it upsetting or otherwise causing you mental distress is a recommended course of action. Since this is Hell, you don't even need to enter the board.

    The thread will remain open for now, because there's other conversations happening that folk seem to want to respond to.

    DT
    HH

    I know I was mixing it up with another site I post on which does close threads if the OP asks. Apologies.
    LB before I mentioned International Men’s Day I said men do not need a pat on the head or get approval for doing everyday jobs. I have said it all through this thread.
    You've said it, but mentioning International Men's Day contradicts that. ISTM, much of what you've said and implied contradicts it.
    If you have a practical suggestion of how to encourage better behaviour that isn't the equivalent of throwing them biscuits for being merely decent, it would be nice to hear.
    BTW, throwing your dissatisfaction into my lap is rubbish when I am saying nothing different than most of the respondents. If it makes you more comfortable to villainise me, fine. But if it is a way to ignore the, IMO, problems with your approach, not so fine.

    Yes, I would like to have my say, but let's not pretend that I am the only one saying it.

    Stopping smacking them in the face might be start. Putting them down every time something about men comes up would be useful.
    As I recall I said you always have to have your say which implies going across threads not just this one and pointed out it is your posting style which again means across threads. And for the final time celebrating men does not mean pandering to them. You won’t accept that because you are not willing to say anything but the same thing all the time. There was a no use calling you to hell you have had several calls. So let’s leave it there
  • asher wrote: »
    I acknowledge current and historic gender injustice. I want to be part of the solution, in the way I personally behave and in the way I interact with others.
    It would help if your posting history here supported your claim to want to be part of the solution. Your interactions here belie your claims, uncorroborated anecdotes don't prove anything.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    But expecting encouragement from the world at large for doing the right thing is what's naive.

    Again, I have not asked women to encourage men. I want to see men encouraging each other. So far every single person engaging with me has pretended I have said something different.

    Then you're not communicating well. You complained that the things I said - "just do it" - weren't encouraging. So yeah, you indicated a wish to see women encouraging men.
  • There is an element of this conversation which I think needs thinking about. So far, every singe poster on this thread and all such threads has defeated the pseudonymous nature of this website by invoking the gender identity of all posters in the discussion. To me, a large part of the pseudonymous process is to remove all identity markers and simply listen to the voices. The consistent pseudonym means that a nuanced picture of each poster can be drawn by longterm users, but why is everyone so adamant that this feature must be effectively jettisoned in discussions like this?

    One thought that occurs is that the Ship is not the whole world. In most of the world, we carry our identities, particularly their more visible elements, with us like a constant flag, waving before us in every discussion in which we take part. In that sort of discussion, it feels appropriate to take account of all the evidence available, including those elements of identity. Surely it is worth going with the structure of this place, and simply evaluating the words rather than assessing the right of each speaker to speak and patroling their words according to something which may be implicit in those words, but which otherwise external to them?

    In all other respects, we insist on this site on removing the speaker and just hearing their words. Why is this topic so different, and why does either side feel entitled to make it so without discussion or consent?
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    asher wrote: »
    I acknowledge current and historic gender injustice. I want to be part of the solution, in the way I personally behave and in the way I interact with others.

    This thread, following others that have ended up in the same place, has prompted me to think about how people change and what helps them change.

    I acknowledge that there are people on this forum who do this stuff for a living, and I am not one of them.

    A cursory half- hour of google yielded some common themes. These generally included support with goal setting, good feedback and support networks.

    So, yes, maybe a pat on the head and a biscuit for behaving like a decent human being would be a good idea where this represents change.

    So yes, maybe setting priorities for change and where progressed celebrated.

    So yes, maybe some posters here would like a space on SoF where support and encouragement could be found.

    I acknowledge the injustice experienced by many here. And there is a place for the strong expression of this. Maybe SoF should just be that place, just for roaring against injustice, rather than contributing to change?

    For me, the ‘shouting at people until they change’ approach, together with the lack of compassion shown on this thread, are counterproductive. It impedes change.

    Asher

    Yesterday, a male neighbour of mine hung himself in his garage. So many people are now shattered - there are children involved. The immediate cause was relationship breakdown. The wider pattern might be thought to include things around false-ideas of self reliance, lack of emotionally intimate friendships. Toxic masculinity.

    As with Black Lives Matter in America (not sure if you're savvy,) many, many people have been being oh-so-nice about asking oh-so-sweetly and having all kinds of gentle, thoughtful conversations about sexism and getting the equivalent of a pat on the head and a "oh, isn't that nice" while the abuse continues.

    Tone-policing is undignified, especially in this particular sub-forum. I don't blame people at all for being a bit cranky. I'm a white man, and it makes me cranky.

    And to your anecdote. I know my own horror stories about toxic male behavior and its consequences, no need to embarrass anyone by bringing them up directly. But yeah, child abuse, suicide, neglect, rape, etc. People unable to take responsibility for their own behavior and often using "But I was abused! You have to be nice to me while I beat you!" Fuck that noise.

    As you are clearly aware, the consequences of that kind of behavior can seep down generations like an inheritance of raw sewage. I might've once had more patience for that kind of person, being a generally kind-hearted soul, but after a while it just looks like enabling.

    Men need to take responsibility for their actions, and this is coming from a man. After a certain threshold, even if you're a trauma case, you have to pack your baggage and seek the help that you need to get to grow up.

    Besides, tough manly types are all about tough talk. This is pretty mild as far as "tough talk" goes.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    There is an element of this conversation which I think needs thinking about. So far, every singe poster on this thread and all such threads has defeated the pseudonymous nature of this website by invoking the gender identity of all posters in the discussion. To me, a large part of the pseudonymous process is to remove all identity markers and simply listen to the voices. The consistent pseudonym means that a nuanced picture of each poster can be drawn by longterm users, but why is everyone so adamant that this feature must be effectively jettisoned in discussions like this?
    If you are listening to eight people talk about the problems (or lack thereof) of being disabled in your country, it would be a issue if you didn't notice who used a wheelchair. Similarly, if you ignored invisible disabilities and pretended they didn't exist. Ignoring gender is like that.
  • In the wider context yes. But I am suggesting that it may be worth experimenting with doing something different. Like saying in all cases, how would I hear these words if I didn't know the gender of the speaker? It's not that far from MLK's dream of his children being judged by the content of their character. Unless you hold to an essentialist view of racial characteristics. Or gender characteristics for that matter.
  • asher wrote: »
    I acknowledge current and historic gender injustice. I want to be part of the solution, in the way I personally behave and in the way I interact with others.
    It would help if your posting history here supported your claim to want to be part of the solution. Your interactions here belie your claims, uncorroborated anecdotes don't prove anything.

    I guess that you are referring back to my posts in June?

    Following Admin/Host attention, and reflection that I wasn't wholly happy with how I was posting (in May/June), and the impact of SoF on my mental health, I took some time away from the ship. I think I logged out and did not visit the site for perhaps 6 weeks?

    On my return, I took advice from hosts, and spent time in Heaven, and trying to keep my head below the parapet.

    I think that I did not post on any gender based topics between 25/6 and 29/9.

    I've made 4 posts on this thread, and I have attempted to post in a different manner to that which I did in May/June.

    Asher



  • @ThunderBunk - you're not wrong, but this isn't a perfect world, and we're not perfect beings in it either. We have to acknowledge our embodied lives in order to make sense of the things that happen around us. Someone discussing poverty when they are rich will have different insights to someone who is poor, and it often comes down to how much skin you have in the game.

    One of the problems we have on the Ship (we've been struggling/discussing this situation for a while) is how the discussion of the theoretical can seem cruel and heartless to those in the practical - we can talk about what to do about racism without having experienced racism, we can talk about what to do about disability without having experienced disability, and so on. "I don't think ramps should be put outside historical buildings" is a debatable assertion, but if you rely on the ramp for access, it becomes much more personal.

    And, in this particular thread, we all bring our biology with us. None of us are arguing this in the theoretical. We all have skin in the game.
  • To pursue my experiment just for a minute (bearing in mind that it has different implications for me in different contexts), let's think about the point @Doc Tor made about adapting thresholds. The speaker may be someone who has a particular interest in architectural heritage; they may simply be a rather rigid utilitarian and basing their view on the small proporition of the population that requires ramps vs. the cost of providing them in the relevant buildings; they may simply be incapable of empathy in that direction, or indeed generally. The question then becomes whether knowing whether or not the speaker was disabled would make a difference. It does to an extent but the practical implications of the argument against adaptations can be made, and made in a way that directly underlines the concrete exclusionary implications of the proposal, without invoking the identity of any speaker.

    In Ship terms, the other potential point is the difference between Purgatory and Epiiphanies - that the speaker's identity should only be taken into account in Epiphanies, because the personal is more at play in that sphere. I am aware of the difficulties with that idea, but also with the extent to which invoking identity in all cases turns the discussion uncomfortable ad hominem.
  • asher wrote: »
    For me, the ‘shouting at people until they change’ approach,
    This is a too common refrain when people do not agree with what someone posts. This is a discussion forum and people discuss things that matter to them.What you describe as "yelling" is often just that disagreement. But it can also be passion, frustration with the person not getting it, etc. Too often we view what is said* through our own filters, rather than what might be more reasonable to assume.
    *typed ion a screen with no visual or auditory cues and littel background understanding of the writer.
    asher wrote: »
    together with the lack of compassion shown on this thread, are counterproductive. It impedes change.
    I do not see any lack of compassion. ISTM, most of the posters, including myself BTW, have compassion for men who go through rough patches because of sexism.
    asher wrote: »
    Yesterday, a male neighbour of mine hung himself in his garage. So many people are now shattered - there are children involved. The immediate cause was relationship breakdown. The wider pattern might be thought to include things around false-ideas of self reliance, lack of emotionally intimate friendships. Toxic masculinity.
    This well and truly is horrible.

  • There is an element of this conversation which I think needs thinking about. So far, every singe poster on this thread and all such threads has defeated the pseudonymous nature of this website by invoking the gender identity of all posters in the discussion. To me, a large part of the pseudonymous process is to remove all identity markers and simply listen to the voices. The consistent pseudonym means that a nuanced picture of each poster can be drawn by longterm users, but why is everyone so adamant that this feature must be effectively jettisoned in discussions like this?

    One thought that occurs is that the Ship is not the whole world. In most of the world, we carry our identities, particularly their more visible elements, with us like a constant flag, waving before us in every discussion in which we take part. In that sort of discussion, it feels appropriate to take account of all the evidence available, including those elements of identity. Surely it is worth going with the structure of this place, and simply evaluating the words rather than assessing the right of each speaker to speak and patroling their words according to something which may be implicit in those words, but which otherwise external to them?

    In all other respects, we insist on this site on removing the speaker and just hearing their words. Why is this topic so different, and why does either side feel entitled to make it so without discussion or consent?
    I began here, and still mostly continue, trying to be as anonymous as I can. In part, because I wan the logic and reason of my words to be weighed on their own. It is a two-edged sword, though. On one hand, there is a gravitas to the words of those who have experienced the issues under discussion. On the other, there is the dismissal of being blinded by bias.
    ISTM, there is a different character to threads that contain participants who have skin in the game v not.
    The transgender threads vs race or homosexuality ones are a good example.

  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    I acknowledge current and historic gender injustice. I want to be part of the solution, in the way I personally behave and in the way I interact with others.
    It would help if your posting history here supported your claim to want to be part of the solution. Your interactions here belie your claims, uncorroborated anecdotes don't prove anything.

    I guess that you are referring back to my posts in June?

    ...

    I think that I did not post on any gender based topics between 25/6 and 29/9.

    I've made 4 posts on this thread, and I have attempted to post in a different manner to that which I did in May/June.
    Since your summer break, you've posted on two threads attempting to excuse police brutality towards and murder of black people by reference to occasions where police were subject to attack. I'm sure the other members of the local BLM group you claim to attend are absolutely delighted at your dismissal of the experience of black people at the hands of the police.

    You might be attempting to post in a different manner, but it's an attempt that calls for the classic teachers report response - "must try harder". Because, I'm not seeing anything substantively different from the views you expressed before your summer break. Added to which, I'm not sure whether there are many who would congratulate you on expressing sexism and racism in slightly less offense ways - either change who you are so that you're no longer racist and sexist or, if you can't manage that, shut the fuck up.
  • asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    I acknowledge current and historic gender injustice. I want to be part of the solution, in the way I personally behave and in the way I interact with others.
    It would help if your posting history here supported your claim to want to be part of the solution. Your interactions here belie your claims, uncorroborated anecdotes don't prove anything.

    I guess that you are referring back to my posts in June?

    ...

    I think that I did not post on any gender based topics between 25/6 and 29/9.

    I've made 4 posts on this thread, and I have attempted to post in a different manner to that which I did in May/June.
    Since your summer break, you've posted on two threads attempting to excuse police brutality towards and murder of black people by reference to occasions where police were subject to attack. I'm sure the other members of the local BLM group you claim to attend are absolutely delighted at your dismissal of the experience of black people at the hands of the police.

    You might be attempting to post in a different manner, but it's an attempt that calls for the classic teachers report response - "must try harder". Because, I'm not seeing anything substantively different from the views you expressed before your summer break. Added to which, I'm not sure whether there are many who would congratulate you on expressing sexism and racism in slightly less offense ways - either change who you are so that you're no longer racist and sexist or, if you can't manage that, shut the fuck up.

    Dude who snipes passive aggressively at women for standing up for themselves also applies the same disingenuous misdirection to Black Lives Matter?

    It all runs together, I suppose.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Stopping smacking them in the face might be start. Putting them down every time something about men comes up would be useful.
    You say smack in the face, I say present reality as I see it.
    I'll not deny that my posting can be blunt and direct and this can feel like a smack if in disagreement. But they are really not the same thing.
    Hugal wrote: »
    As I recall I said you always have to have your say which implies going across threads not just this one and pointed out it is your posting style which again means across threads.
    This whinge always gets my neck up. This is a bloody discussion forum and contrary opinions will be encountered. And I will not apologise for being passionate about more than one subject.
    Hugal wrote: »
    And for the final time celebrating men does not mean pandering to them. You won’t accept that because you are not willing to say anything but the same thing all the time.
    I do not accept it because your posting history does not support it. Fuck me, but I have to bring up International Men's Day again because you will not address it. IMD is not Men's Rights, but it is closer to Men's Rights than you probably think. Speaking about addressing things. Whilst you have no obligation to, you have contributed the least amongst the posters on this thread you have started. You've done no response to the issues raised. Seriously, you've not addressed those things which people have brought up that are issues with your proposal.
    Hugal wrote: »
    There was a no use calling you to hell you have had several calls. So let’s leave it there
    We are in Hell right now. Go for it if you wish, I am very good at that game.
    I have been civil* towards you on this thread for three reasons:
    One is that this subject is important to me.
    Another is that it is important to you. I acknowledge what you have gone through and that it sucks.
    The third reason is the most important. Whilst an exchange of insults can be mildly satisfying, it typically ends the real discussion. On the other hand, as I mentioned, you've done very little actual discussing in this discussion.

    *Though I doubt you think this is true, it seriously is. I've been direct, but very far from abusive.
  • Bullfrog wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    asher wrote: »
    I acknowledge current and historic gender injustice. I want to be part of the solution, in the way I personally behave and in the way I interact with others.
    It would help if your posting history here supported your claim to want to be part of the solution. Your interactions here belie your claims, uncorroborated anecdotes don't prove anything.

    I guess that you are referring back to my posts in June?

    ...

    I think that I did not post on any gender based topics between 25/6 and 29/9.

    I've made 4 posts on this thread, and I have attempted to post in a different manner to that which I did in May/June.
    Since your summer break, you've posted on two threads attempting to excuse police brutality towards and murder of black people by reference to occasions where police were subject to attack. I'm sure the other members of the local BLM group you claim to attend are absolutely delighted at your dismissal of the experience of black people at the hands of the police.

    You might be attempting to post in a different manner, but it's an attempt that calls for the classic teachers report response - "must try harder". Because, I'm not seeing anything substantively different from the views you expressed before your summer break. Added to which, I'm not sure whether there are many who would congratulate you on expressing sexism and racism in slightly less offense ways - either change who you are so that you're no longer racist and sexist or, if you can't manage that, shut the fuck up.

    Dude who snipes passive aggressively at women for standing up for themselves also applies the same disingenuous misdirection to Black Lives Matter?

    It all runs together, I suppose.
    To be as fair as I can be, it can be difficult to assess one's own blindness. Without an inherent guide, there is no gauge by which to measure change. Meaning a small internal change can feel larger than it is without something else to measure it by.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Stopping smacking them in the face might be start. Putting them down every time something about men comes up would be useful.
    You say smack in the face, I say present reality as I see it.

    @ThunderBunk And that is exactly why it helps when posting is not anonymous, when we know whatever of people's genders and backgrounds that they choose to share. It happens that in this case I see something rather similar to what @lilbuddha sees, but if I didn't, the first thing I would do is try to think about what's influencing her point of view instead of saying she's wrong. And if she has shared anything about her background that applies to the subject better than my own experience--if she happens to make guitars* and we are discussing guitar maintenance--then I will try to shut up and listen.

    *Made up from wholecloth and presumed incorrect
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Speaking as a white guy who grew up in an almost-exclusively white town, it's definitely a difference when you hear about racism specifically from black people. And I've definitely learned that it's common courtesy to defer to people with direct experience, lacking other reasons to suspect manipulation. I've learned a lot about racism by having black friends who respect me enough to speak frankly about it in my presence. I get the impression that it's similar with sexism.

    Of course, on the internet, anyone can pretend to be anything, which is a cause for caution, but I'm miles away from ever thinking that it's better to talk about this stuff as if we were all platonic abstractions completely divorced from our very tangible realities. It seems to me a rather white arrogance, even with the best of intentions, to think that it's even possible to separate yourself from the conversation.

    As Jason Isbell (country singer) put it most elegantly, I am a white man living in a white man's world. I owe it to the world to own that.

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Stopping smacking them in the face might be start. Putting them down every time something about men comes up would be useful.
    You say smack in the face, I say present reality as I see it.
    I'll not deny that my posting can be blunt and direct and this can feel like a smack if in disagreement. But they are really not the same thing.
    Hugal wrote: »
    As I recall I said you always have to have your say which implies going across threads not just this one and pointed out it is your posting style which again means across threads.
    This whinge always gets my neck up. This is a bloody discussion forum and contrary opinions will be encountered. And I will not apologise for being passionate about more than one subject.
    Hugal wrote: »
    And for the final time celebrating men does not mean pandering to them. You won’t accept that because you are not willing to say anything but the same thing all the time.
    I do not accept it because your posting history does not support it. Fuck me, but I have to bring up International Men's Day again because you will not address it. IMD is not Men's Rights, but it is closer to Men's Rights than you probably think. Speaking about addressing things. Whilst you have no obligation to, you have contributed the least amongst the posters on this thread you have started. You've done no response to the issues raised. Seriously, you've not addressed those things which people have brought up that are issues with your proposal.
    Hugal wrote: »
    There was a no use calling you to hell you have had several calls. So let’s leave it there
    We are in Hell right now. Go for it if you wish, I am very good at that game.
    I have been civil* towards you on this thread for three reasons:
    One is that this subject is important to me.
    Another is that it is important to you. I acknowledge what you have gone through and that it sucks.
    The third reason is the most important. Whilst an exchange of insults can be mildly satisfying, it typically ends the real discussion. On the other hand, as I mentioned, you've done very little actual discussing in this discussion.

    *Though I doubt you think this is true, it seriously is. I've been direct, but very far from abusive.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    Stopping smacking them in the face might be start. Putting them down every time something about men comes up would be useful.
    You say smack in the face, I say present reality as I see it.
    I'll not deny that my posting can be blunt and direct and this can feel like a smack if in disagreement. But they are really not the same thing.
    Hugal wrote: »
    As I recall I said you always have to have your say which implies going across threads not just this one and pointed out it is your posting style which again means across threads.
    This whinge always gets my neck up. This is a bloody discussion forum and contrary opinions will be encountered. And I will not apologise for being passionate about more than one subject.
    Hugal wrote: »
    And for the final time celebrating men does not mean pandering to them. You won’t accept that because you are not willing to say anything but the same thing all the time.
    I do not accept it because your posting history does not support it. Fuck me, but I have to bring up International Men's Day again because you will not address it. IMD is not Men's Rights, but it is closer to Men's Rights than you probably think. Speaking about addressing things. Whilst you have no obligation to, you have contributed the least amongst the posters on this thread you have started. You've done no response to the issues raised. Seriously, you've not addressed those things which people have brought up that are issues with your proposal.
    Hugal wrote: »
    There was a no use calling you to hell you have had several calls. So let’s leave it there
    We are in Hell right now. Go for it if you wish, I am very good at that game.
    I have been civil* towards you on this thread for three reasons:
    One is that this subject is important to me.
    Another is that it is important to you. I acknowledge what you have gone through and that it sucks.
    The third reason is the most important. Whilst an exchange of insults can be mildly satisfying, it typically ends the real discussion. On the other hand, as I mentioned, you've done very little actual discussing in this discussion.

    *Though I doubt you think this is true, it seriously is. I've been direct, but very far from abusive.

    Wrong I have contributed to this thread a lot. Certainly at the beginning. When it started turning the same way as all the others on men and women I stopped. I do know something about feminism. I was in a string relationship with a strong feminist for several years. I have heard all the argument. I am not just some Neanderthal man who knows nothing.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Sorry to double post but I am coming off this thread for a while.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Wrong I have contributed to this thread a lot. Certainly at the beginning. When it started turning the same way as all the others on men and women I stopped. I do know something about feminism. I was in a string relationship with a strong feminist for several years. I have heard all the argument. I am not just some Neanderthal man who knows nothing.
    Let us look at that, shall we?
    Several posts about womensplaining existing.
    One post with an example, another with a vague reference to an example.
    Basic comments on being nice to men, but not so strong on specifics
    Complaints that these sorts of threads don't go how you want
    Complaints that this thread isn't going how you want
    Blaming me for that
    ISTM that sums up your contributions to this thread.

    @Hugal Leave the thread if you please, but let's not pretend there was a meaningful exchange on your part.
    And hate on my posting style all you which, but let us not pretend that it was the cause of the thread not being what you wished. I'm not having that.

    A note:
    The pain you went through is respected, even by me, though I doubt you'll believe that. However we can do this without agreeing with you as to how to solve the problem.
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    Bullfrog wrote: »
    It seems to me a rather white arrogance, even with the best of intentions, to think that it's even possible to separate yourself from the conversation.

    And yet 'splaining seems to involve making assumptions that the other person knows little about the subject because of the sort of person they appear to be.

    If you take the view that this is a bad thing, then wouldn't you want to take their words on their own merit ? (At least initially. Until you were quite sure that they knew nothing about guitar-making....)

    And isn't that a process of separating the person from what they're saying ?






  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Ruth wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    But expecting encouragement from the world at large for doing the right thing is what's naive.

    Again, I have not asked women to encourage men. I want to see men encouraging each other. So far every single person engaging with me has pretended I have said something different.

    Then you're not communicating well. You complained that the things I said - "just do it" - weren't encouraging. So yeah, you indicated a wish to see women encouraging men.

    "Stop kicking me in the teeth" is not the same thing as "bring me an apple pie." You are not contributing ANYTHING with this line of abuse.
  • Russ wrote: »
    Bullfrog wrote: »
    It seems to me a rather white arrogance, even with the best of intentions, to think that it's even possible to separate yourself from the conversation.

    And yet 'splaining seems to involve making assumptions that the other person knows little about the subject because of the sort of person they appear to be.

    If you take the view that this is a bad thing, then wouldn't you want to take their words on their own merit ? (At least initially. Until you were quite sure that they knew nothing about guitar-making....)

    And isn't that a process of separating the person from what they're saying ?






    I think if folks who engaged in "mansplaining" as a behavior took women's words on their own merit, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, because there'd be no reason for anyone to even coin the phrase.

    And when the topic of conversation is specifically "discrimination experienced by people of type X," I would generally give them some credence when it comes to speaking of their own experience.

    I've had enough women in my life, unprompted and without apparent prejudice, report sexism in their daily life that I figure there's some truth to it, and I'm a bit skeptical of men who presume that they're paragons of objectivity in talking about discrimination that they do not, as a rule, experience directly.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    "Stop kicking me in the teeth" is not the same thing as "bring me an apple pie." You are not contributing ANYTHING with this line of abuse.

    Get down from the cross. I haven't proposed kicking anyone in the teeth. I just said people should do the right thing because it's the right thing.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    "Stop kicking me in the teeth" is not the same thing as "bring me an apple pie." You are not contributing ANYTHING with this line of abuse.

    Get down from the cross. I haven't proposed kicking anyone in the teeth. I just said people should do the right thing because it's the right thing.

    And I've said that's not the way people effect change in their life in the real world. And you haven't addressed that, only gone on a little rant about how women can't be expected to praise men. How about addressing my actual point?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I did address your point. I said:
    If men want to form little support groups and encourage each other in whatever way works for them, that would be be great.[/i]
  • Hmm. Missed that. Then why the rest of the spleen, I wonder.
  • And I though black people got the vote, ended Jim Crow, advanced Civil Rights* by talking about how bad it was. I didn't realise they handed out treats and pats on the head.

    *Granted, still a ways to go. So maybe brownies and shoulder rubs to finish things off...
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Hmm. Missed that. Then why the rest of the spleen, I wonder.

    Projection, thy name is mousethief.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Hmm. Missed that. Then why the rest of the spleen, I wonder.

    Projection, thy name is mousethief.

    Back atcha.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Learn to read. And stop being such a child.
  • Ooooh that smarts.
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