No deal Brexit

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  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    The UK are concerned about fishing rights in their own waters and the ability to do their own thing within the UK.
    The EU are happy for the UK to do their own thing within the UK if they keep it in the UK. This is a trade deal. The UK want the ability to do their own thing and not keep it in the UK.
    What the UK want is the ability to use taxpayer money to subsidise UK high-tech manufacturing, and also the ability to trade anything we manufacture to the EU without tariffs. If the UK does both the UK will be undercutting the EU who have rules about not subsidising manufacturing. They are fine with the Chinese subsidising manufacturing, because the EU have tariffs to balance the playing field.

    The EU are fine with the UK either subsidising industry or exporting tariff-free, but not both.

    As for the UK fishing rights: while technically speaking the waters belong to the UK under international law there are fishermen in villages along the French coast who have been fishing in those waters in good faith, whose fathers before them were fishing in those waters in good faith, and who will be left without a livelihood if the UK suddenly turns around and says that the law gives them the right to tell them not to. Is it unreasonable for the French government to stand up for them?
    Also, the fish neither know nor care where the boundaries are.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    In other news, the EU has agreed to the UK's terms for resumption of talks and has said it's willing to compromise on the outstanding areas of negotiation. Gove in the House of Commons welcomed the move. Then Number 10 said the EU's offer was not enough and that the EU's approach needed to change in some unspecified way.
    It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Johnson thinks it will be easier to blame the EU for the consequences of no deal than it will be to prepare for the consequences of the deal he's signed up to.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The UK are concerned about fishing rights in their own waters and the ability to do their own thing within the UK.
    The EU are happy for the UK to do their own thing within the UK if they keep it in the UK. This is a trade deal. The UK want the ability to do their own thing and not keep it in the UK.
    What the UK want is the ability to use taxpayer money to subsidise UK high-tech manufacturing, and also the ability to trade anything we manufacture to the EU without tariffs. If the UK does both the UK will be undercutting the EU who have rules about not subsidising manufacturing. They are fine with the Chinese subsidising manufacturing, because the EU have tariffs to balance the playing field.

    The EU are fine with the UK either subsidising industry or exporting tariff-free, but not both.
    I understand this bit
    As for the UK fishing rights: while technically speaking the waters belong to the UK under international law there are fishermen in villages along the French coast who have been fishing in those waters in good faith, whose fathers before them were fishing in those waters in good faith, and who will be left without a livelihood if the UK suddenly turns around and says that the law gives them the right to tell them not to. Is it unreasonable for the French government to stand up for them?
    Also, the fish neither know nor care where the boundaries are.
    The French have their own waters and should use them.

  • Johnson + thinks = oxymoron.

    Cummings, OTOH...well, who knows what he thinks? And it is he who is ruining running the country.

  • An interesting little detail which I saw on the Belgian news the other day.
    King Charles II gave permission to up to 30 fishing boats from Flanders to fish in British waters ' sine die'. (without limit of time ) This was a thanksgiving gesture to them for all they had done for him during the time of Cromwell
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    You may argue that it would be better if things hadn't got to the stage where there are more French fishermen than English so the fair share belongs more to the French. But that fishing boat has sailed.

  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should

  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should
    Why? We gave them indefinite permission to use ours.

    (Repeating edit to previous post:) You may argue that it would be better if things hadn't got to the stage where there are more French fishermen than English so fair shares give the French more. But that fishing boat has sailed.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should

    Fine. Now try to land the UK catch in France and see how you cope with sanitary/vetinerary inspections.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The EU has again played the grown up. Boris needs hid bottom smacked and sent to her with no supper. No wait...
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    The EU has again played the grown up. Boris needs hid bottom smacked and sent to her with no supper. No wait...

    No reason he should have any treats.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Sorry in my last post her should be bed
  • Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should

    Unfortunately, the wretched Fish (Johnny Foreigners to a fin) don't respect these boundaries, and will persist in leaving their passports at home...


  • Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should

    Unfortunately, the wretched Fish (Johnny Foreigners to a fin) don't respect these boundaries, and will persist in leaving their passports at home...
    I get the impression that you have never been fishing

  • Games Workshop, purveyor of plastic space marines to the masses, has a larger turnover than the entire UK fishing industry (an industry that barely any Britons are involved in anyway).

    I appreciate that it's 'iconic' but honestly? I'd rather GW trade freely.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    I think the other point to note is that fishing communities from the French coast have been fishing in British waters in good faith for generations. Under English common law long-standing use of a resource in good faith establishes a right to that resource. Or to put it another way, it's not fair to wreck the livelihood of communities, even in other countries, without giving them a say in the matter.
    That is a real non-sequitur. The question is how long has the owner of that boat been fishing in UK waters. Community only comes into it if the boats are owned by the community as a legal entity.
    IANAL but right of way AIUI does not have to be established by any single individual and does not only apply to the particular individuals who established it.
    The principle of communal rights in a resource has been undermined over history, in particular by the various enclosure acts, but under common law theory I believe it is still valid.
    (In any case, the community is comprised of the owners of the boats and their heirs and those industries and traders that resource them.)

    Passing and re-passing is one matter. You're wanting to extend that to enjoyment of the produce, either plant or animal, and off the top of my head, I can't think of any authority that permits that as a general proposition. It may to commons, but that's a beast I'm not familiar with.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    Sorry in my last post her should be bed

    But with a her in it would be very acceptable to Boris.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    Games Workshop, purveyor of plastic space marines to the masses, has a larger turnover than the entire UK fishing industry (an industry that barely any Britons are involved in anyway).

    I'm not surprised seeing a reasonable battallion of Necrons will set you back the thick end of the entire value of the harbour contents at Newquay.

    And then there's paints...

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    It seems obvious to me that if everyone sticks to fishing solely in their own territorial waters, it's the UK that's going to find itself cramped by this far more than the EU. The boundary is going to shrink the options for UK boats in several directions.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Where does all this leave Guernsey and Jersey? Jersey in particular is very close to the French shoreline, so close that perhaps their maritime boundaries meet. I appreciate that the islands are not part of the UK
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    I don't believe they were ever part of the EU anyway? Though I think they did have some sorts of agreements, which might have to be revisited.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    I'm pretty sure that they were not within the EU, any more than Man is.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    Games Workshop, purveyor of plastic space marines to the masses, has a larger turnover than the entire UK fishing industry (an industry that barely any Britons are involved in anyway).

    I appreciate that it's 'iconic' but honestly? I'd rather GW trade freely.

    What is the import tariff on plastic crack these days? I'm assuming the queues at Dover aren't going to be so long that GW releases new rules that make your models obsolete before they reach you.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    It seems obvious to me that if everyone sticks to fishing solely in their own territorial waters, it's the UK that's going to find itself cramped by this far more than the EU. The boundary is going to shrink the options for UK boats in several directions.

    I think the issue is that under the current system, the UK's quota is disproportionately small relative to the size of UK territorial waters. So if everyone stuck to 'their' waters, UK fishermen wouldn't be able to roam as far, but they would catch more in the places where they can roam.

    But this is a bit of a strawman anyway; AFAICT everyone involved in negotiations (as opposed to newspaper headline writers) knows perfectly well that quotas are necessary, the argument is just that the UK wants more. Hence my 'horse-trading' comment earlier.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Gee D wrote: »
    Where does all this leave Guernsey and Jersey? Jersey in particular is very close to the French shoreline, so close that perhaps their maritime boundaries meet. I appreciate that the islands are not part of the UK

    The defence of their territorial waters is the preserve of the Crown, but it leaves them in two quite different situations (they are two independent baliwicks, each with their own governments).

    Fishing in Jersey waters is regulated by the Granville Bay Agreement, which is a bilateral treaty with France that as such is unaffected by Brexit. But its equilibrium will be disrupted in the event of No Deal, not because of fishing rights, but because of where the catch can be landed (see below).

    Fishing in Guernsey waters is regulated by what used to be the London Fisheries Convention which was essentially subsumed into the EU's Common Fisheries Policy. The UK announced it would denounce this in 2017 with the result that it lapsed when Brexit formally occurred, at the start of the Transition Period.

    (After a rather hairy couple of days at the start of the Transition Period during which Guernsey prohibited French vessels from Normandy that historically fished in its waters from doing so, a temporary permit system was put in place that lapses at the end of the Transition Period - i.e. in just over two months :scream:).

    As things stand, in the event of No Deal, third country import requirements will be imposed on Channel Islands vessels landing their catch in France (their traditional destination) which will be impracticable and/or impossible for a range of factors. The actual detail is hugely complicated (e.g. different systems and natural requirements for shellfish, tides, etc.).

    The big takeaway from all this is that the issue of fishing rights cannot be separated from the issue of being able to land the catch where there is an easily accessible market for it.

    @Doc Tor fishing may not weigh much economically in the grand scheme of things, but a) it is a significant part of some local economies (e.g. the Normandy coast) b) it is an emotive component of national heritage, and as has been pointed out above, issues of history, emotion and identity play a huge role in all this, just as they did when coal mines wereclosed in the UK because they were economically unviable.

    And @Telford I have never been fishing in my life, but I can confidently assert that I know what I'm talking about in this answer.

  • Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should

    Unfortunately, the wretched Fish (Johnny Foreigners to a fin) don't respect these boundaries, and will persist in leaving their passports at home...
    I get the impression that you have never been fishing
    I admit it's been a long time, but I used to pluck (a very few) fish from local canals and reservoirs. But, I know that on a very rare occasion fish have been known to carry currency but I've seen no evidence of passports. Even if they do have passports, though I'm sure they'll be able to identify each other I admit to me that all plaice look alike. I can possibly talk to colleagues who might be able to do some tests to determine where fish were born, but it's going to be difficult to get that technology into boats to ensure that the sole UK catch is UK born and raised fish.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thanks Eutychus. I assumed that it would be horribly complicated, given that the Queen in her role of Duke of Normandy no longer has any say in the government of her duchy. Very hard on 2 small entities.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    @Doc Tor fishing may not weigh much economically in the grand scheme of things, but a) it is a significant part of some local economies (e.g. the Normandy coast) b) it is an emotive component of national heritage, and as has been pointed out above, issues of history, emotion and identity play a huge role in all this, just as they did when coal mines were closed in the UK because they were economically unviable.

    I get that - but fishing is an *in*significant part of local economies in the UK, so I'm presuming it's just (b) on the part of the UK. It's a shame that it wasn't when the Tories closed the steelworks and the coal mines, and singularly failed to put anything in place that might mitigate the losses. In the North East, where I now am, it's now 35 years later and there's still nothing.

    I appreciate that Games Workshop isn't critical to the Nottingham economy, but it certainly is one of the UK's success stories - along with video games and book publishing. Maybe I should retrain in cyber...
  • Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should

    Unfortunately, the wretched Fish (Johnny Foreigners to a fin) don't respect these boundaries, and will persist in leaving their passports at home...
    I get the impression that you have never been fishing

    I get the impression that you have no sense of irony (or humour).

  • Unfortunately, the wretched Fish (Johnny Foreigners to a fin) don't respect these boundaries

    People keep saying this, but the fact remains that British waters have consistently been the most productive in Europe. There's no reason to think that's going to change just because we're not in the EU any more.

    And yes, fishing is a small part of the UK economy. But a lot of that is down to quotas - if UK boats have access to far more fish (because EU boats aren't catching them) then it could well expand, to the benefit of many costal areas. And if we have control over a resource to which the EU wants access then that gives us an advantage when it comes to trade negotiations.

    People keep saying that the EU doesn't owe us any favours, and that's true. But we don't owe them any either. If they want access to our fish then they've either got to give us something we want in return (allowing the UK state to subsidise technological industries, say) or agree to buy those fish from our fishermen rather than catching them themselves.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    O well, that's all right then. I stand corrected.
    :wink:

    I'm sure there may be sense and reason in what you say. Alas, those words don't seem to be in the mindset of our Lord Protector and his minions...
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    I was very curious to discover recently that I was buying some fish from Latvia. That was a bit of a surprise.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    But a lot of that is down to quotas - if UK boats have access to far more fish (because EU boats aren't catching them) then it could well expand, to the benefit of many costal areas.
    It could expand, but not I think fast enough to make full use of the quota immediately. That means there would either be a temporary fish shortage, or the UK will award the fishing rights to someone else. Maybe not Serco, but Japanese or Chinese industrial fishing fleets? Quite possibly. I don't see Cornish fishing villages benefitting very much.

    There is also the question of what the UK got in exchange for the fishing quotas. Increased access to fisheries aren't much use except as a long-term investment, so if the UK got a down payment in exchange for long-term fishing rights there is some grounds for thinking the UK is not quite honouring its side of the bargain.
  • Both sides (the UK and the EU) are playing silly buggers. While each is trying to outstare the other, we are in an indefinite impasse which will end in a War of Johnson's Ear. Cummings, rather than Frost, has that ear at present, but if the outcome is as disastrous as seems likely, will that last, I wonder?
  • If they want access to our fish then they've either got to give us something we want in return (allowing the UK state to subsidise technological industries, say) or agree to buy those fish from our fishermen rather than catching them themselves.
    The EU is more than happy to buy fish from UK fishermen. The question is more whether the UK is willing to comply with the customs and vetinerary controls that the EU will apply to it as a third country given its steadfast refusal to countenance a sensible trade deal.

    (You may also have to tell those UK fishermen they can't fish in waters they've traditionally used since time immemorial to catch some of those fish).

    Remember too that the EU asked for none of this: the UK decided it wanted to leave and did so without negotiating any terms beforehand.
  • Fishing is an important industry in the North East of Scotland. However the unpleasant jobs in fish-processing have largely been done by East Europeans for several years. Restrictions on free movement of labour could hit the industry hard, unless we have an influx of Brexiteers into Peterhead and Fraserburgh delighted to get the chance to reclaim fish-gutting jobs.
  • I doubt if the Brexiteers will turn up, as they probably don't know where Peterhead and Fraserburgh are, but they'll send you some retrained Baristas and Ballerinas instead...the ones we don't need as Boris Bog-Box cleaners in Kent, that is.
  • The Northern Irish view? Or at least one Ulster view of this part of the UK fishing industry indicates that, however, comparatively insignificant economically fishing might be, it still will have a big effect, one way or the other, in certain small communities. And certainly a long-term impact on fishing futures for trading ports. I'm hoping that the optimism of the CEO in the article quoted is well founded.

    However, I'm not confident at all that the current Tory administration have the sense and subtlety to know how to cope with the small-print kind of detail required to negotiate these watery minefields to our advantage. I don't believe they actually care enough either for ordinary people's livelihoods, or for the future laying down of a secure industrial footing, to make a proper go of such negotiations. I think they think that exiting the EU on a no-deal ticket will please their supporters, give an impression of being the 'strong man of Europe' and secure future support for further political ambitions and/or give them the right to say 'we did what they voted us for'.

    It need not be that way. But I don't personally think we have the quality of politician in our corner sufficient to get the best out of this situation.
  • Sadly, all too true.
    :disappointed:
  • Could I just speak up for Peterhead and Fraserburgh? We are a very welcoming area and housing stock is readily available, Should any present be considering the fish filleting industry.......
  • Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Should any present be considering the fish filleting industry.......
    ... that's the plaice to go.

  • And yes, fishing is a small part of the UK economy. But a lot of that is down to quotas

    This is true. However, it's far truer to say that the UK fishing fleet has chosen to sell those quotas, along with the boats that carry them, to large, European-owned fishing conglomerates. Literally, UK trawler owners have sold their livelihoods and left the sea. The majority of 'UK fish' are caught by foreign-owned trawlers and landed in mainland Europe ports, for consumption in mainland Europe.

    It's like supporting 'your' local football team, when none of the players are born in the country, let alone count as local. The indigenous UK fishing industry is minuscule. You can argue that this is an opportunity to repatriate both jobs and catches, but you can't argue that the current situation isn't a complete mess, and that UK fishing hasn't been entirely complicit in it.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The same applies to power suppliers and rail operators. Many have been sold to European companies. Not to mention Nestle and Craft own the two biggest chocolate makers in the country. So our great new independent Britain will still be very influenced by foreigner.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    The French have their own waters and should use them.
    They are already using their own waters.
    They should stick to them then. like we should

    Unfortunately, the wretched Fish (Johnny Foreigners to a fin) don't respect these boundaries, and will persist in leaving their passports at home...
    I get the impression that you have never been fishing

    I get the impression that you have no sense of irony (or humour).

    I invariably appreciate humour when it happens

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Hugal wrote: »
    The same applies to power suppliers and rail operators. Many have been sold to European companies. Not to mention Nestle and Craft own the two biggest chocolate makers in the country. So our great new independent Britain will still be very influenced by foreigner.

    Yes - it seems odd to see *English* railway locomotives emblazoned with Deutsche Bahn** DB markings...the subsidiary DB Schenker Bahn is apparently our largest freight train operator...

    **German Railway

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Should any present be considering the fish filleting industry.......
    ... that's the plaice to go.

    And after that, the place for you is with your nose into a corner.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Should any present be considering the fish filleting industry.......
    ... that's the plaice to go.

    And after that, the place for you is with your nose into a corner.

    With the current state of things, word play lifts my sole.

    I see no reason to get crabby about puns.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    As long as they are not prawnish in nature
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    You’ll all walk the plankton if these puns continue!
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Skating on thin ice I fear. But it does bring a ray of light into these beluga'd times. Any a manta wordplay is fine with me.
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