Now he challenges lilBuddha on being a Christian, and she rightly points out that that's irrelevant and he says "a simple yes or no will do."
No. Not to a "have you stopped beating your wife" question. Or indeed to any leading question that is not actually a request for relevant information, but either a sarcastic gotcha, or setting up a clobber.
Reading the Last Supper Mural thread I notice he makes 100 assumptions then cries when shown this.
But watching him trying to debate @lilbuddha is very entertaining.
I’m not involved in the thread as I don’t care what the artist was thinking. Artists have endless motivations.
Thankfully Telford started the thread, so - in this case - his silly assumptions are not frustrating for the OPer as it’s him.
🙄
He started off so well... and then got lost. Telford, if you're reading this, you should have asked lilbuddha why she confidently states that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. John's gospel claims in the text to be an eyewitness account...
Poor old Telford has become a bit confused on that thread...I don't think he's quite managing to keep up with lilbuddha...
To be fair @lilbuddha is unique, I can’t keep up with her either. I think she’s the exact opposite of me. She gives away nothing of herself, she’s here to debate with excellent logic. I can only speak from experience and I wouldn’t know logic if I fell over it. 🤣🤣
He started off so well... and then got lost. Telford, if you're reading this, you should have asked lilbuddha why she confidently states that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. John's gospel claims in the text to be an eyewitness account...
He started off so well... and then got lost. Telford, if you're reading this, you should have asked lilbuddha why she confidently states that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. John's gospel claims in the text to be an eyewitness account...
My advice to you was followed by a hostly instruction. You started your wretched tangent here and that's why I singled you out after making a more general plea here.
Now you're apophatically continuing the tangent by posting on the thread about how you're not continuing it.
You are constantly disrupting threads like this. Whether or not it's deliberate, it comes across as trolling and it does nobody any good. Just stop already.
It's not difficult to understand what a tangent is or spot an especially egregious one, and persisting with it after having been invited to take it to another thread is self-centred and rude. Adding a further disruptive post to announce that this is what he'll do and paint himself as the luckless victim simply stirs the pot. And this is a pattern of behaviour.
Rather as in the discussion of Hell we're having in Purgatory despite his interruptions, I live in hope that people can be redeemed and change their ways, but I don't think that's an excuse for giving them a free pass to be disruptive.
Eh. I kind of think, much as it pains me to offer support to the Shropshire Somnifacient, that Martin bears equal culpability for the tangent. You can't declare your affinity for Good Wednesday without expecting it to trigger some discussion.
Yep - never feeding trollishness is the answer. But some threads are being spoiled.
There are many threads I just read, as I have nothing to add/know little about the subject. I find them fascinating, especially the ‘Christian understanding of Hell’ thread. But I’m steering clear of it now, and the other threads which Telford is smearing with ill formed, ignorant views, lack of ability to learn and victim play.
@Martin54 has posted a lot on that thread, with only a small number of those posts relating to that tangent. In the last few pages at least, @Telford only posted in pursuit of that tangent. That may not be relevant in the blame game, but the optics are different. One person engaging in the thread with occasional tangential comments cf another person who pops in a few times to pick up a tangent last commented on several posts earlier.
I joined the original ship in 2001 and made some amazing friends who i still am in touch with. I even married a bloke off here and although over the years i've not been on here as much, every so often i dip in to see what's happening. Yes there has always been people on the ship who rub people up the wrong way whether deliberately or not. There has always, like any other group setting, been a core group of members, those who want to be in the core group and those who are seen as misfits who will, no matter what, never get an equal footing.
When a friend or generally someone you like, says something wrong or goes off tangent etc then there seems to be a grace and forgiveness to it which isn't given to others.
It's almost like it doesn't matter what the later say because you are already pissed off with them so there is very little grace shown.
I do believe that a few people on here are trying to graciously show Telford how a message board works and also given some good useful pointers. However there are those on this ship that to be honest are being an absolute arsehole. I think are probably a bit annoyed with how he comes across, but others are just jumping on the bandwagon of of "oh lets say something random and shitty about Telford so that i can be in the cool gang"
At the end of the day a discussion board can have whatever rules it wants and can decide what activity and rudeness its wants and if people want to contribute then they need to follow the rules. What annoys me though is that not everyone is treated equally with those rules and some, Telford included are getting a harsher serving than a lot of others by other members and some of the hosts.
It make me wonder if those who are so very ungracious and bullying on here are also like this in real life and if there was someone in their workplace, church, social setting etc who wasn't getting things 'quite right' or not fitting in to the group, would be talked to with such vileness and disdain.
Is it only acceptable if you can't see their face and see any possible hurt you are causing when you have no idea about who they are and what 'real life' is like for them.
I wasn't planning on this being one of my few posts on the ship as i do think on the whole it has some amazing people and important discussion on here. I was the one who introduced Telford to the ship as i've talked for years about how it was a wonderful place of friendship and discussion for many years but after seeing how he has been treated i don't feel i could recommend it every again.
Telford chooses to come to Hell and roll in the mud. Moreover, he seems to enjoy it enormously, as he's here so often. I put it you, @Holly , that you don't know your friend quite as well as you think you do.
Any time someone behaves so irritatingly that they get called to Hell, one or more naysayers will show up, hankies properly wrung, to accusing people of piling on or being unChristian or bandwagoning or whatever. Some things haven't changed in 19 years.
Hmm. If one friend recommends an experience to another, and the second friend has a completely different experience in the same location and context... that does rather suggest it's the friends that are different from each other.
I mean, sure, it's possible that the Ship has changed mood/tone over the years (and I think it has), but to that extent? I'm doubtful.
And from what I can remember there's been a long line of people who have turned up, acted in a similar way and then when there's a reaction it's everyone else's fault.
Perhaps the Ship is a bit like an immune system, primed from previous encounters to stomp harder and more rapidly...
Telford chooses to come to Hell and roll in the mud. Moreover, he seems to enjoy it enormously, as he's here so often. I put it you, @Holly , that you don't know your friend quite as well as you think you do.
I have known him for 45 years so I think I know him very well thankyou.
Any time someone behaves so irritatingly that they get called to Hell, one or more naysayers will show up, hankies properly wrung, to accusing people of piling on or being unChristian or bandwagoning or whatever. Some things haven't changed in 19 years.
I haven't said anything about people being unChristian. I chose not to make that assumption as it's not a clear definition of Christians act nice and none Christians don't.
I've also not said that people shouldn't be annoyed with Telford or with other Shipmates. Im also not saying everyone should be fake super nice. It's more about the severity and how unequal some people get treated for similar behaviours and the sometimes OTT responses which I questioned whether if someone in real life displaying those traits would get the same treatment.
@Telford repeatedly fails to read for context, take account of what has been posted earlier, and respond to invitations to cease and desist from disruptive behaviour.
In real life we might put up with that, or simply physically move away. On the Ship we have no alternative but to call out the behaviour in the hope that the disruption will cease. I have not seen @Telford acknowledge, or respond to, the complaints beyond positioning himself as the victim. This is not constructive for anybody.
@Holly - It’s different being annoyed about how someone comes across to being annoyed because good threads are constantly dragged into pointless, unpleasant and ‘all about me’ tangents by @Telford.
I think I’ve called people to Hell three times in all my time on the Ship. Two of the occasions were me being silly and pissy.
Not this one. Telford continues to put me off interesting threads, not by what he says but because he insists on making it all about Telford and veering way off the subject in the process.
I stand by what I said in the OP -
It’s time you had your very own Hell thread, so that perfectly good discussions can be saved from becoming all about you.
You are single handedly putting me off visiting the Ship, and I’m a 30-a-day addict.
I did it in the hope that he’d bring his gripes here instead of starting tangents.
Sadly in vain - but at least we can ignore him on the threads and come here to vent. It’s what Hell is for, is it not?
The problem is that getting the hell away from an online discussion you've initiated and that has many interesting contributions is a lot more difficult than moving to the next room in the pub.
@Holly - methinks thou dost protest too much, but I'm pleased that Telford's fan club has at least one member...
i'm not sure what you are implying about me protesting to much????
I obviously have the advantage of knowing Telford in real life so i also get a more rounded context of his personality and how he feels about subjects. We don't always agree on stuff and i do roll my eyes a lot btw.
Understandably when someone chats online people only get an idea of a person based on how they type, what they type and how they respond to others. This can give a sometimes false representation of how a person actually is.
I have read a lot of the posts on here concerning Telford and his replies and i do for the most part understand what people are getting at. I think the calling of people Trolls when they are adding something not 'in keeping' with a thread is too simplistic. Yes sometimes i think people can be disruptive but i do believe in Telfords case it's just wanting to share something that he thinks. An example where he posted about not finishing a book he didn't enjoy.
Does that add to the discussion that the op invited?? Not really.
Does it really hurt the conversation or derail it? Not really.
Does the jumping down his throat when he makes mistakes like that, so when he then tries to say why he posted it derail a thread? YES
On a general note...
Does he sometimes post things that gets people annoyed and want to smack the screen? YES but i genuinely don't think he does it to deliberately annoy people.
If people don't like his posts they are generally told not to feed the troll (he isn't one) but some responses are. "I can't help it i know i shouldn't but i have to respond" WHY do you have to respond?
I'm not trying to cause a big argument on here but this thread is about Telford and its important to put a bit of balance on here.
@Holly - may I politely suggest that you familiarise yourself with the Hell guidelines?
This really isn't the place to set yourself up as Telford's apologist, champion, or supporter.
That's not a threat BTW - just an opinion, tendered respectfully.
Thankyou. I have read the Hell Guidelines and understand how Hell works.
It is useful to have a place on the ship to put things that aren't appropriate for other areas of the ship and to call people out for their behaviour. Surely that doesn't mean though that there can't be a balance of thought and opinion.
I've seen on other threads in Hell where someone has stated an opinion on someone but others have responded that they don't agree and actually think that person is ok. That is all i am trying to do.
I don't plan on being a broken record and will hopefully get round to posting where i used to ie only in Heaven or All Saints. Venturing through Hell has never been my comfort zone :-)
On this occasion though i felt i atleast needed to say my piece in response to Telford as i've found it all quite upsetting.
Telford chooses to come to Hell and roll in the mud. Moreover, he seems to enjoy it enormously, as he's here so often. I put it you, @Holly , that you don't know your friend quite as well as you think you do.
I have known him for 45 years so I think I know him very well thankyou.
In that case, I simply have to hope he's very different in real life rather than the tedious, irritating, narcissistic arse that he is here.
@Holly - may I politely suggest that you familiarise yourself with the Hell guidelines?
This really isn't the place to set yourself up as Telford's apologist, champion, or supporter.
That's not a threat BTW - just an opinion, tendered respectfully.
Thankyou. I have read the Hell Guidelines and understand how Hell works.
I'm not sure you do, but that's up to you. This place is well-known for opprobrious epithets and obloquy, often well-deserved, and well-aimed. Hence the warnings...
Telford chooses to come to Hell and roll in the mud. Moreover, he seems to enjoy it enormously, as he's here so often. I put it you, @Holly , that you don't know your friend quite as well as you think you do.
I have known him for 45 years so I think I know him very well thankyou.
In that case, I simply have to hope he's very different in real life rather than the tedious, irritating, narcissistic arse that he is here.
Yes i can confirm in real life Telford is not narcissistic
The problem is Telford doesn’t seem to learn. I have posted a thread so that he could discuss what he wanted without spoiling another. Several of us have given him chances. He had been advised to not post in Hell if he is not going to follow the idea behind it. Several of us have tried to integrate him inti the Ship but he seems to not want to be integrated. We really have tried but he seems not want to
I don't know Telford from a hole in the ground. And I can't claim to know Holly either. But I have to say I think it was quite brave of her to post as she has done -and so clearly and, from her perspective, quite rationally. I agree with those who think Telford has been posting mainly in a negative and needlessly provocative manner. But I also feel grateful for Holly's take on this, too, whatever I may agree or disagree with her about.
As regards trolling, here's an extract from Wikipedia:
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts flame wars or intentionally upsets people on the Internet by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, either for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.
Sounds rather like Telford's behaviour to me, but YMMV.
It's quite interesting that a friend of the initial thread subject should have managed to contest the right of people to respond to what they see and to make the thread all about them. A pattern??????????
It's quite interesting that a friend of the initial thread subject should have managed to contest the right of people to respond to what they see and to make the thread all about them. A pattern??????????
If there was a thread on a message board devoted to casting all kinds of aspersions at the intent and motivation of one of my friends, I'd probably feel inclined to defend them as well.
I don't think Telford is a troll. If you're looking for trollish behaviour among regular posters, there are several other people who I'd place ahead of him. I disagree with much of what he says, and I think in general he's overly enamoured of what he seems to think are clever debating tricks, but in reality wouldn't get past a middle school debate team, but that doesn't make him a troll.
Most of us do not have the pleasure of knowing Telford in real life; how he behaves in real life is irrelevant to those of us who only know him as he posts on the Ship. He describes himself as passive-aggressive.
I don't know Telford from a hole in the ground. And I can't claim to know Holly either. But I have to say I think it was quite brave of her to post as she has done -and so clearly and, from her perspective, quite rationally. I agree with those who think Telford has been posting mainly in a negative and needlessly provocative manner. But I also feel grateful for Holly's take on this, too, whatever I may agree or disagree with her about.
Thankyou for your kind reply. We may have said the odd hello on the old ship forums and cafe but that would have been a very long time ago.
I just hope @Holly can help him to see that his behaviour (while not being a troll) is trollish - and derails, sometimes trashes, perfectly good threads.
People can come across as very different online, I’m sure we all do to some extent. But this is not about how he comes across, it’s about what he does.
Telford chooses to come to Hell and roll in the mud. Moreover, he seems to enjoy it enormously, as he's here so often. I put it you, @Holly , that you don't know your friend quite as well as you think you do.
I have known him for 45 years so I think I know him very well thankyou.
In that case, I simply have to hope he's very different in real life rather than the tedious, irritating, narcissistic arse that he is here.
Yes i can confirm in real life Telford is not narcissistic
I wonder if he constantly steers the subject back to himself.
It's quite interesting that a friend of the initial thread subject should have managed to contest the right of people to respond to what they see and to make the thread all about them. A pattern??????????
Im guessing you are suggesting i am also Telford???????
As i said above i have been on and off the ship since 2001. There are a lot of people on the old ship who will have met me in real life at ship meets and i have a small number who are still on my facebook.
I messaged an admin when i first posted on the new ship ref the error of how i put my name in capitals and explained who Telford was in reference to me. I am happy to prove to admin that we are indeed two seperate people.
On this occasion the post i am posting on is in fact 'All about Telford' so surely that is what the main conversation should be about. Your post doesn't make sense??????
On this occasion the post I am posting on is in fact 'All about Telford' so surely that is the main conversation should be about. Your post doesn't make sense?
Yes - this is the right thread to be ‘all about Telford’. But I’m not talking about this thread.
(Superfluous and irritating question marks removed, annoying lowercase ‘I’ ditto.)
Comments
No. Not to a "have you stopped beating your wife" question. Or indeed to any leading question that is not actually a request for relevant information, but either a sarcastic gotcha, or setting up a clobber.
But watching him trying to debate @lilbuddha is very entertaining.
I’m not involved in the thread as I don’t care what the artist was thinking. Artists have endless motivations.
Thankfully Telford started the thread, so - in this case - his silly assumptions are not frustrating for the OPer as it’s him.
He started off so well... and then got lost. Telford, if you're reading this, you should have asked lilbuddha why she confidently states that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. John's gospel claims in the text to be an eyewitness account...
Hey ho.
AFZ
To be fair @lilbuddha is unique, I can’t keep up with her either. I think she’s the exact opposite of me. She gives away nothing of herself, she’s here to debate with excellent logic. I can only speak from experience and I wouldn’t know logic if I fell over it. 🤣🤣
Fair point!
(Telford is now confusing Me...but that ain't difficult...
And Luke's most explicitly claims not to be.
True, indeed.
Now you're apophatically continuing the tangent by posting on the thread about how you're not continuing it.
You are constantly disrupting threads like this. Whether or not it's deliberate, it comes across as trolling and it does nobody any good. Just stop already.
It's not difficult to understand what a tangent is or spot an especially egregious one, and persisting with it after having been invited to take it to another thread is self-centred and rude. Adding a further disruptive post to announce that this is what he'll do and paint himself as the luckless victim simply stirs the pot. And this is a pattern of behaviour.
Rather as in the discussion of Hell we're having in Purgatory despite his interruptions, I live in hope that people can be redeemed and change their ways, but I don't think that's an excuse for giving them a free pass to be disruptive.
And now @Telford is back on there playing the victim and trying to curry sympathy some more.
(But @Martin54, do not feed the troll or any troll-like behaviour).
There are many threads I just read, as I have nothing to add/know little about the subject. I find them fascinating, especially the ‘Christian understanding of Hell’ thread. But I’m steering clear of it now, and the other threads which Telford is smearing with ill formed, ignorant views, lack of ability to learn and victim play.
It’s tedious.
When a friend or generally someone you like, says something wrong or goes off tangent etc then there seems to be a grace and forgiveness to it which isn't given to others.
It's almost like it doesn't matter what the later say because you are already pissed off with them so there is very little grace shown.
I do believe that a few people on here are trying to graciously show Telford how a message board works and also given some good useful pointers. However there are those on this ship that to be honest are being an absolute arsehole. I think are probably a bit annoyed with how he comes across, but others are just jumping on the bandwagon of of "oh lets say something random and shitty about Telford so that i can be in the cool gang"
At the end of the day a discussion board can have whatever rules it wants and can decide what activity and rudeness its wants and if people want to contribute then they need to follow the rules. What annoys me though is that not everyone is treated equally with those rules and some, Telford included are getting a harsher serving than a lot of others by other members and some of the hosts.
It make me wonder if those who are so very ungracious and bullying on here are also like this in real life and if there was someone in their workplace, church, social setting etc who wasn't getting things 'quite right' or not fitting in to the group, would be talked to with such vileness and disdain.
Is it only acceptable if you can't see their face and see any possible hurt you are causing when you have no idea about who they are and what 'real life' is like for them.
I wasn't planning on this being one of my few posts on the ship as i do think on the whole it has some amazing people and important discussion on here. I was the one who introduced Telford to the ship as i've talked for years about how it was a wonderful place of friendship and discussion for many years but after seeing how he has been treated i don't feel i could recommend it every again.
I mean, sure, it's possible that the Ship has changed mood/tone over the years (and I think it has), but to that extent? I'm doubtful.
And from what I can remember there's been a long line of people who have turned up, acted in a similar way and then when there's a reaction it's everyone else's fault.
Perhaps the Ship is a bit like an immune system, primed from previous encounters to stomp harder and more rapidly...
I have known him for 45 years so I think I know him very well thankyou.
I haven't said anything about people being unChristian. I chose not to make that assumption as it's not a clear definition of Christians act nice and none Christians don't.
I've also not said that people shouldn't be annoyed with Telford or with other Shipmates. Im also not saying everyone should be fake super nice. It's more about the severity and how unequal some people get treated for similar behaviours and the sometimes OTT responses which I questioned whether if someone in real life displaying those traits would get the same treatment.
In real life we might put up with that, or simply physically move away. On the Ship we have no alternative but to call out the behaviour in the hope that the disruption will cease. I have not seen @Telford acknowledge, or respond to, the complaints beyond positioning himself as the victim. This is not constructive for anybody.
I think I’ve called people to Hell three times in all my time on the Ship. Two of the occasions were me being silly and pissy.
Not this one. Telford continues to put me off interesting threads, not by what he says but because he insists on making it all about Telford and veering way off the subject in the process.
I stand by what I said in the OP -
I did it in the hope that he’d bring his gripes here instead of starting tangents.
Sadly in vain - but at least we can ignore him on the threads and come here to vent. It’s what Hell is for, is it not?
@Holly - methinks thou dost protest too much, but I'm pleased that Telford's fan club has at least one member...
i'm not sure what you are implying about me protesting to much????
I obviously have the advantage of knowing Telford in real life so i also get a more rounded context of his personality and how he feels about subjects. We don't always agree on stuff and i do roll my eyes a lot btw.
Understandably when someone chats online people only get an idea of a person based on how they type, what they type and how they respond to others. This can give a sometimes false representation of how a person actually is.
I have read a lot of the posts on here concerning Telford and his replies and i do for the most part understand what people are getting at. I think the calling of people Trolls when they are adding something not 'in keeping' with a thread is too simplistic. Yes sometimes i think people can be disruptive but i do believe in Telfords case it's just wanting to share something that he thinks. An example where he posted about not finishing a book he didn't enjoy.
Does that add to the discussion that the op invited?? Not really.
Does it really hurt the conversation or derail it? Not really.
Does the jumping down his throat when he makes mistakes like that, so when he then tries to say why he posted it derail a thread? YES
On a general note...
Does he sometimes post things that gets people annoyed and want to smack the screen? YES but i genuinely don't think he does it to deliberately annoy people.
If people don't like his posts they are generally told not to feed the troll (he isn't one) but some responses are. "I can't help it i know i shouldn't but i have to respond" WHY do you have to respond?
I'm not trying to cause a big argument on here but this thread is about Telford and its important to put a bit of balance on here.
This really isn't the place to set yourself up as Telford's apologist, champion, or supporter.
That's not a threat BTW - just an opinion, tendered respectfully.
Thankyou. I have read the Hell Guidelines and understand how Hell works.
It is useful to have a place on the ship to put things that aren't appropriate for other areas of the ship and to call people out for their behaviour. Surely that doesn't mean though that there can't be a balance of thought and opinion.
I've seen on other threads in Hell where someone has stated an opinion on someone but others have responded that they don't agree and actually think that person is ok. That is all i am trying to do.
I don't plan on being a broken record and will hopefully get round to posting where i used to ie only in Heaven or All Saints. Venturing through Hell has never been my comfort zone :-)
On this occasion though i felt i atleast needed to say my piece in response to Telford as i've found it all quite upsetting.
In that case, I simply have to hope he's very different in real life rather than the tedious, irritating, narcissistic arse that he is here.
I'm not sure you do, but that's up to you. This place is well-known for opprobrious epithets and obloquy, often well-deserved, and well-aimed. Hence the warnings...
Yes i can confirm in real life Telford is not narcissistic
As regards trolling, here's an extract from Wikipedia:
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts flame wars or intentionally upsets people on the Internet by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, either for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.
Sounds rather like Telford's behaviour to me, but YMMV.
I see what @Anselmina means, but I think it rather unwise of Holly to lay him/herself open on this thread.
Not sure where else his/her opinions could be usefully expressed, though.
If there was a thread on a message board devoted to casting all kinds of aspersions at the intent and motivation of one of my friends, I'd probably feel inclined to defend them as well.
I don't think Telford is a troll. If you're looking for trollish behaviour among regular posters, there are several other people who I'd place ahead of him. I disagree with much of what he says, and I think in general he's overly enamoured of what he seems to think are clever debating tricks, but in reality wouldn't get past a middle school debate team, but that doesn't make him a troll.
Thankyou for your kind reply. We may have said the odd hello on the old ship forums and cafe but that would have been a very long time ago.
People can come across as very different online, I’m sure we all do to some extent. But this is not about how he comes across, it’s about what he does.
I wonder if he constantly steers the subject back to himself.
Im guessing you are suggesting i am also Telford???????
As i said above i have been on and off the ship since 2001. There are a lot of people on the old ship who will have met me in real life at ship meets and i have a small number who are still on my facebook.
I messaged an admin when i first posted on the new ship ref the error of how i put my name in capitals and explained who Telford was in reference to me. I am happy to prove to admin that we are indeed two seperate people.
On this occasion the post i am posting on is in fact 'All about Telford' so surely that is what the main conversation should be about. Your post doesn't make sense??????
*Birds of a feather flock together* is the old adage that springs to mind!
Nothing wrong with someone trying to defend a friend - I just question as to whether this is the right place.
Yes - this is the right thread to be ‘all about Telford’. But I’m not talking about this thread.
(Superfluous and irritating question marks removed, annoying lowercase ‘I’ ditto.)