It's quite interesting that a friend of the initial thread subject should have managed to contest the right of people to respond to what they see and to make the thread all about them. A pattern??????????
If there was a thread on a message board devoted to casting all kinds of aspersions at the intent and motivation of one of my friends, I'd probably feel inclined to defend them as well.
I don't think Telford is a troll. If you're looking for trollish behaviour among regular posters, there are several other people who I'd place ahead of him. I disagree with much of what he says, and I think in general he's overly enamoured of what he seems to think are clever debating tricks, but in reality wouldn't get past a middle school debate team, but that doesn't make him a troll.
Thankyou for your reply. That is all i am trying to do, although not as such to defend the behaviour as that is subjective but more to hopefully put a balanced point of view.
On this occasion the post I am posting on is in fact 'All about Telford' so surely that is the main conversation should be about. Your post doesn't make sense?
Yes - this is the right thread to be ‘all about Telford’. But I’m not talking about this thread.
(Superfluous and irritating question marks removed, annoying lowercase ‘I’ ditto.)
I do tend to go a bit overboard with the question marks my apologies and yes I missed using a capital on a I. It's not the biggest crime though surely and pointing it out distracts from more important points in the thread.
*Birds of a feather flock together* is the old adage that springs to mind!
Nothing wrong with someone trying to defend a friend - I just question as to whether this is the right place.
I had to google what YMMV stood for as not come across it before.
I think any place where someone is in need of being defended is surely the correct place to defend them.
Sorry - I should know that not everyone is familiar with internet acronyms. My bad.
As to defending Telford here, you may be right. What does he himself think about your intervention, I wonder?
He told me I shouldn't incase it got me into trouble and didn't want me to get involved in case it affected what people thought of me on here. That was also my concern also, although it's been a very long while since i was an active member of the ship and a lot of people may not remember me or even know me at all.
Accusations of sock-puppetting are serious, and in this case, wholly unwarranted. Wearing both my Host and Admin hats, I'm telling everyone to cease and desist.
One would like to know (just out of interest) why you have disobeyed him, but it's probably a personal matter, and maybe better left alone.
Because when we last spoke yesterday he decided it was up to me if I posted or not.
This posting by proxy is further evidence to my mind of unpleasant, manipulative behaviour. Reporting @Telford's comments is inappropriate in multiple ways.
Yes, how very odd, as I remarked earlier. @Telford is quite capable of holding his own, even if it drives the rest of us bonkers...
And - in all fairness to him - he has shown, and is showing, that he can participate in various threads without turning everything arse-about-face in order to point to him.
One would like to know (just out of interest) why you have disobeyed him, but it's probably a personal matter, and maybe better left alone.
Because when we last spoke yesterday he decided it was up to me if I posted or not.
This posting by proxy is further evidence to my mind of unpleasant, manipulative behaviour. Reporting @Telford's comments is inappropriate in multiple ways.
With respect you have got the wrong end of the stick. I introduced Telford to the ship and so when I see it's not gone as well as I had thought it might we discussed it.
There was no manipulation by any means. I can also stand my own ground and don't need to be told what to do.
There was genuine concern that by me speaking up it could cause me issues. After speaking to him further about it and how I felt he then said it's was up to me.
@Holly the fact that you feel the need to speak and he is remaining silent whilst feeding you information is evidence of manipulation to me, whether you feel manipulated or not.
You brought up real life interaction. How do you feel in the presence of somebody who's always reporting what someone close by that both of you know says about the situation you're discussing? This is known as triangling and you are a participant, wittingly or not. Stop.
One would like to know (just out of interest) why you have disobeyed him, but it's probably a personal matter, and maybe better left alone.
"Disobeyed" seems like an odd choice of word to use in this context, as it seems to imply that Holly would have some kind of duty to follow Telford's instructions.
They don't.
And as far as I can see, @Eutychus is well out of order here.
@Holly has told us that they are a personal friend of @Telford. As far as I see, none of Holly's comments on this thread have been remotely inappropriate. It is completely natural for Holly and Telford to have discussed, in person, Telford's reception on these forums. It is normal, and creditable, for Telford to tell Holly they shouldn't associate themselves with him, as he's not all that popular. It is equally normal, and creditable, for Holly to tell him they weren't going to be dictated to by fear of a bunch of keyboard warriors who are unable to distinguish between Telford and friend-of-Telford.
Given that we're already in hell, I have no need to call @Eutychus here for his unpleasant and unfounded accusations of manipulative behaviour.
One would like to know (just out of interest) why you have disobeyed him, but it's probably a personal matter, and maybe better left alone.
"Disobeyed" seems like an odd choice of word to use in this context, as it seems to imply that Holly would have some kind of duty to follow Telford's instructions.
They don't.
And as far as I can see, @Eutychus is well out of order here.
@Holly has told us that they are a personal friend of @Telford. As far as I see, none of Holly's comments on this thread have been remotely inappropriate. It is completely natural for Holly and Telford to have discussed, in person, Telford's reception on these forums. It is normal, and creditable, for Telford to tell Holly they shouldn't associate themselves with him, as he's not all that popular. It is equally normal, and creditable, for Holly to tell him they weren't going to be dictated to by fear of a bunch of keyboard warriors who are unable to distinguish between Telford and friend-of-Telford.
Given that we're already in hell, I have no need to call @Eutychus here for his unpleasant and unfounded accusations of manipulative behaviour.
Wrong call, dude. You owe an apology.
Thankyou for explaining what I seem to have been struggling to get certain people to understand. I have predominantly based my thoughts on what I have read rather than what I have been told. The verbal conversations have been more about what has been felt rather than what's been said via everyone involved.
To be told I am triangling and being manipulated is absolutely ridiculous.
I haven't come into this thread lightly and don't plan to make it a permanent home but I will on my own accord stick up for someone close to me when needed without being accused of being a victim of Manipulation. That is gaslighting and scaremongering.
Note also I haven't actually said my relationship to Telford only that I know him in real life.
Wading in where angels fear to tread, I actually agree that Telford isn't a deliberate troll. I find online there are quite a few people who know their views are different from the majority in the particular group in which they like to post, and they feel they need to post them again and again, knowing they will annoy people. They may know their wording is a bit inflammatory, but it's not with the intent of winding people up, but more the compulsion to state their views, again and again, and refuse to be cowed by the majority opinion. A need to be heard, a need to express disagreement, I don't know - it's not the most emotionally healthy or mature way of interacting, but I think there is a difference between this and deliberate trolling, and I do think the word 'troll' gets bandied about a bit too liberally here. Many people lack the self awareness to be a deliberate troll, but also lack the self-awareness and emotional maturity to interact in a way that makes people warm to them or respect them.
The behaviour amounts to trolling whether it's intentional or not. As far as I'm concerned @Telford can hold whatever opinions he likes, provided they're relevant to the topic and interact with others. Persisting in a tangent, or tangents to the tangent, after being politely asked to stop suggests either wilful intent to disrupt or failure to read preceding posts.
Oops - missed the edit window, but you might like to reflect that some of us (including myself) are actually supporting you, at least up to a point!
I suggest that you read posts more carefully, and don't fling mud at people who wish you no harm.
I suppose we all can be guilty of not completely understanding the point someone has said or is trying to say. I do try and read the posts carefully and to reply accordingly. I certainly didn't think I was flinging any virtual mud but just trying to share my opinion while listening to what others are saying also.
It times like this when actually seeing someone's face is useful to get a fuller picture of what's being said.
*Birds of a feather flock together* is the old adage that springs to mind!
Nothing wrong with someone trying to defend a friend - I just question as to whether this is the right place.
I had to google what YMMV stood for as not come across it before.
I think any place where someone is in need of being defended is surely the correct place to defend them.
Sorry - I should know that not everyone is familiar with internet acronyms. My bad.
As to defending Telford here, you may be right. What does he himself think about your intervention, I wonder?
He told me I shouldn't incase it got me into trouble and didn't want me to get involved in case it affected what people thought of me on here.
Odd - you haven’t been on here apart from to defend Telford, once in January and now. How could it affect what folks here thought of you? - you have never engaged on the new (no longer new by a long stretch) Ship. 🤔
The behaviour amounts to trolling whether it's intentional or not. As far as I'm concerned @Telford can hold whatever opinions he likes, provided they're relevant to the topic and interact with others. Persisting in a tangent, or tangents to the tangent, after being politely asked to stop suggests either wilful intent to disrupt or failure to read preceding posts.
Nah, everyone here seems to say that, but it makes no sense, as the very concept and definition of trolling is all about intention. Therefore there is no inherent behaviour that is trolling. Describing the behaviour would be looking at things like inflammatory language, emotive language, and, as you say, persisting in a tangent.
You can't prove intention, as everyone is different. It is very possible for people to persist in a tangent when being asked to stop, without any wilful intent of being troublesome, but because they find it hard to stop, because the tangent is very important to them, because their brain isn't taking in all the info in the thread, or because they may lack the emotional maturity, or their social norms are quite different from the social norms in the group. It happens all the time in my local autism group, and with some of the autistic students I work with. (Not suggesting that Telford is autistic, but speaking giving this as an example - these ways of processing are not exclusive to autism.)
An underlying assumption with the Hell forum, aside of its safety valve venting function, is that you could possibly change someone else's behaviour or opinion. This is of course false. And of course will not stop you from trying. Which is very Christian I suppose: that no soul is lost or irredeemable (Oh God you are so BIG), and that if we try hard enough everyone can be saved.
Which for no apparent good reason reminds me of the Dickwad theory: "Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Compleat Dickwad" Now that @Holly has shown up, and removed the Anonymity, Telford will have his tickey to heaven and away from your perception of his trollish demonism. (Which I don't completely share, because, well disagreeing is a good idea)
*Birds of a feather flock together* is the old adage that springs to mind!
Nothing wrong with someone trying to defend a friend - I just question as to whether this is the right place.
I had to google what YMMV stood for as not come across it before.
I think any place where someone is in need of being defended is surely the correct place to defend them.
Sorry - I should know that not everyone is familiar with internet acronyms. My bad.
As to defending Telford here, you may be right. What does he himself think about your intervention, I wonder?
He told me I shouldn't incase it got me into trouble and didn't want me to get involved in case it affected what people thought of me on here.
Odd - you haven’t been on here apart from to defend Telford, once in January and now. How could it affect what folks here thought of you? - you have never engaged on the new (no longer new by a long stretch) Ship. 🤔
As I said in my original post I joined the original ship in 2001 and was on it for a good few years and made some really good friends. I mainly spent my time in All saints, Heaven and the Cafe. Life changes and so did the time I had available to post on the ship. Also probably Facebook played a big part in the change.
I've always had fond memories of my time on the ship and every so often would have a lurk to see what was happening.
When Telford said he was interested in joining a discussion board I suggested the ship and the same day that he registered I had to also as I hadn't realised the ship had moved to a new system.
There is nothing more to it than that I'm afraid.
An underlying assumption with the Hell forum, aside of its safety valve venting function, is that you could possibly change someone else's behaviour or opinion. This is of course false. And of course will not stop you from trying. Which is very Christian I suppose: that no soul is lost or irredeemable (Oh God you are so BIG), and that if we try hard enough everyone can be saved. Which for no apparent good reason reminds me of the Dickwad theory: "Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Compleat Dickwad"
I think at the end of the day people will always have their opinions and assumptions and no amount of discussion can change that.
I'm not under some covert mission to make everyone love Telford. The ship, as with any discussion board is about sharing opinions,thoughts, angst and worry etc.
If people don't like how he posts that is absolutely fine and I'm not here to change that.
I've explained to him how the ship works. I've even explained why people might be getting the hump. A virtual chat is a lot harder to grasp sometimes than in real life.
What I did struggle with was trying to justify and explain the reasons behind the extreme responses in the Hell forum which felt beyond the normal ofbeing pissed off at someone/something.
I ended up just saying "well that's just how the ship is"
It sat weird with me and the mulling over why that is ok just wouldn't go away hense my post on here.
Edited to add I didn't fully quote you at first as it didn't show the extra till I had posted my reply.
I Am Not Telford, Nor Do I Play Him/Her On TV, but...
Telford and at least one other poster* arrived on the Ship to test the idea that we were all woolly, lefty, bleeding-heart liberals who had abandoned the idea of sin and punishment. Unlike the others, Telford is still here. I appreciate the fact that he is still willing to set out his views and opinions and take the flak for it, even if he doesn't really engage (if at all) with the arguments against. Consider him a challenge...
* I think one was called ThatcherWasRight, which was clearly a name to get people's backs up
What I did struggle with was trying to justify and explain the reasons behind the extreme responses in the Hell forum which felt beyond the normal of being pissed off at someone/something.
The responses aren't extreme. And as I said before, Telford loves coming to Hell. Just not the thread with his name on it, to answer the legitimate questions that other posters here have of his (frankly awful) behaviour.
I'm honestly struggling to believe we're talking about the same person. We've no intention of banning him or anything like that unless he collects enough red marks against his name: we just wish he'd grow up and stop behaving like a dick.
One would like to know (just out of interest) why you have disobeyed him, but it's probably a personal matter, and maybe better left alone.
Because when we last spoke yesterday he decided it was up to me if I posted or not.
This posting by proxy is further evidence to my mind of unpleasant, manipulative behaviour. Reporting @Telford's comments is inappropriate in multiple ways.
I really don't think it is posting by proxy, and I find it weird that you're characterising it as such.
We have husband and wife couples on the Ship. And also people who generally mention at times what their other half has said. No-one jumps up and down and complains about 'posting by proxy' in those circumstances. And frankly, none of what @Holly has said has come across as "I am posting what someone else told me to say".
In other words, there is no general rule against someone mentioning what has been said in off-Ship conversations, and such a rule doesn't miraculously develop when the other party to the conversation is also a Shipmate.
@Holly it is good if you to speak for @Telford. I think you have no fear of being treated in a negative way as you contribute to the argument. As you will have worked out that is the problem many have with @Telford. He does not contribute. He does lead us down tangents. Many of us have gone out of our way to encourage him to behave appropriately. He seems not to want to. Hell is not a friendly place sometimes. Even I am coming to the end of my tether with him. We just want him to contribute in the spirit of the boards.
I do tend to go a bit overboard with the question marks my apologies and yes I missed using a capital on a I. It's not the biggest crime though surely and pointing it out distracts from more important points in the thread.
Part of the problem that I have with Telford is that if anybody criticises him, or points out something he has said is false, or indeed says anything at all negative about what he has said, he either ignores it, or responds with some variant on "I know you are but what am I?" It's not cute in a ten year old. It's screamingly obnoxious from an adult on a serious discussion board. I've just stopped interacting with him at all, because there's no good can come of it. Purgatorial discussion needs to be a give and take, not just a drive-by sliming.
I also have stopped interacting with Telford, not to be unkind, but because he seems to lack self-awareness, logic and maturity, so discussions with him are kind of superficial and circular. He doesn't seem to take on board points made, so it feels like a waste of time and energy. If I knew him in real life, such as in a church group, I would interact with him in a friendly, superficial, small talk way, asking how he was, having a bit of banter, maybe, but I wouldn't be having serious, in-depth discussions with him. And I would do the same on the Ship if he posted in chat theads where I also post, but it is the serious discussions he dives into.
Holly, if he wants support, banter, friendly chit chat, etc., he would get that by posting in All Saints and Heaven. People would be welcoming of him there - they wouldn't be holding against him that he was annoying in Purgatory. That's how it works here - people are generally called to Hell because people feel they are disrupting the serious debates. And people who struggle with social interaction and self awareness do tend to be given a harder time of it. Hell isn't about fairness - it's about people expressing frustrations with the people who annoy them most, and those do tend to be people who aren't so good at understanding and adapting to context, connecting with people, and reading the group dynamics. It's the same in real life, really, though in real life people are more likely to be ignored/ostracised if this is possible. Here their unpopularity is more obvious.
I'm not saying this to suggest it's okay, but just to explain what I have observed. I agree it can become bullying. I think on the old Ship, people often enjoyed having a big virtual punch-up in Hell, almost like it was a game, coming up with fun insults, whether they were the target or the attackers, but these days it does seem to be more a place for grumbling self-righteously about people who don't fit in, as if their difficulties with social interaction, understanding of context, logic, articulation, etc., were all a deliberate ploy to disrupt the settled decorum of the Ship as it is today. But it is absolutely fine to come to Hell and defend someone being attacked, and point out that people are being unfair, having double standards, etc. I do this sometimes.
I do tend to go a bit overboard with the question marks my apologies and yes I missed using a capital on a I. It's not the biggest crime though surely and pointing it out distracts from more important points in the thread.
Yes, it was petty.
Sort of. But it was a genuine irritation and we are allowed to speak our minds in Hell.
*Birds of a feather flock together* is the old adage that springs to mind!
Nothing wrong with someone trying to defend a friend - I just question as to whether this is the right place.
I had to google what YMMV stood for as not come across it before.
I think any place where someone is in need of being defended is surely the correct place to defend them.
Sorry - I should know that not everyone is familiar with internet acronyms. My bad.
As to defending Telford here, you may be right. What does he himself think about your intervention, I wonder?
He told me I shouldn't incase it got me into trouble and didn't want me to get involved in case it affected what people thought of me on here.
Odd - you haven’t been on here apart from to defend Telford, once in January and now. How could it affect what folks here thought of you? - you have never engaged on the new (no longer new by a long stretch) Ship. 🤔
As I said in my original post I joined the original ship in 2001 and was on it for a good few years and made some really good friends. I mainly spent my time in All saints, Heaven and the Cafe. Life changes and so did the time I had available to post on the ship. Also probably Facebook played a big part in the change.
I've always had fond memories of my time on the ship and every so often would have a lurk to see what was happening.
When Telford said he was interested in joining a discussion board I suggested the ship and the same day that he registered I had to also as I hadn't realised the ship had moved to a new system.
There is nothing more to it than that I'm afraid.
I’m glad about that and I hope you will stick around. The fact that you recommended the Ship to Telford explains why you then came to defend him. It made no sense before that.
The Ship remains a good place to be. I also recommend it to fiends. (See what I did there? 😝)Do you remember me from the old Ship? I’ve been sailing from the beginning.
Next time you speak to Telford could you ask him to come here with his gripes rather than spoiling good threads?
Thankyou to everyone who took the time to reply to my initial posting.
I have read everything that everyone has shared and took on board everything that is being said.
I wasn't expecting to take up nearly two pages of the thread but I'm glad it's had the chance to get talked through.
I think I'm going to now venture back up to heaven & All saints ( my comfort zone :-) )
You can't prove intention, as everyone is different. It is very possible for people to persist in a tangent when being asked to stop, without any wilful intent of being troublesome, but because they find it hard to stop, because the tangent is very important to them, because their brain isn't taking in all the info in the thread, or because they may lack the emotional maturity, or their social norms are quite different from the social norms in the group. It happens all the time in my local autism group, and with some of the autistic students I work with. (Not suggesting that Telford is autistic, but speaking giving this as an example - these ways of processing are not exclusive to autism.)
I'm really glad this discussion has happened - particular the part elegantly set out by @fineline above - I've sometimes worried that the Ship is too hard on people who speak from logic more than emotion and/or pick up social cues differently or not at all. Being socially clumsy or coming across as a jerk in writing are not the worst of all sins (I devoutly hope on my own account!) so it's good if the Ship can accommodate people who are not good at making themselves understood. I'm not applying these descriptions to Telford particularly - I'm commenting on a more general point where I've seen several posters get into trouble when I wondered if they were just being hyper logical or not picking up on others' emotions rather than actually meaning to cause trouble.
*Birds of a feather flock together* is the old adage that springs to mind!
Nothing wrong with someone trying to defend a friend - I just question as to whether this is the right place.
If you feel strongly enough about it then it's the right place.
I think it is. Whilst I disagree with Telford and find him/her frustrating there is an element of being rounded on here in a way that others who are very passive aggressive about their views never are.
As everyone says there's always the choice not to be here. But, knowing that people are venting about you behind your back in a way they'd never do face to face (or they would themselves face some pretty searching questions), narrows the field a bit. This is the only place I know where stuff is "allowed" nay encouraged by some, that is destructive and damaging. The name or the location really are no cover when what you need is grace and generosity.
*Birds of a feather flock together* is the old adage that springs to mind!
Nothing wrong with someone trying to defend a friend - I just question as to whether this is the right place.
If you feel strongly enough about it then it's the right place.
I think it is. Whilst I disagree with Telford and find him/her frustrating there is an element of being rounded on here in a way that others who are very passive aggressive about their views never are.
Fair comment - I was just trying to express my slight unease on behalf of Holly, but I think you're probably right.
Comments
Thankyou for your reply. That is all i am trying to do, although not as such to defend the behaviour as that is subjective but more to hopefully put a balanced point of view.
I had to google what YMMV stood for as not come across it before.
I think any place where someone is in need of being defended is surely the correct place to defend them.
The lower-case i might simply be a typo (doubtless it is), but thinking of oneself in lower-case terms is an interesting psychological subject...
/please carry on as you were/
I do tend to go a bit overboard with the question marks my apologies and yes I missed using a capital on a I. It's not the biggest crime though surely and pointing it out distracts from more important points in the thread.
Sorry - I should know that not everyone is familiar with internet acronyms. My bad.
As to defending Telford here, you may be right. What does he himself think about your intervention, I wonder?
He told me I shouldn't incase it got me into trouble and didn't want me to get involved in case it affected what people thought of me on here. That was also my concern also, although it's been a very long while since i was an active member of the ship and a lot of people may not remember me or even know me at all.
One would like to know (just out of interest) why you have disobeyed him, but it's probably a personal matter, and maybe better left alone.
Accusations of sock-puppetting are serious, and in this case, wholly unwarranted. Wearing both my Host and Admin hats, I'm telling everyone to cease and desist.
DT
HH
Hostly furry hat off
Because when we last spoke yesterday he decided it was up to me if I posted or not.
Fair enough!
Of course it fucking is. It's here that he's being attacked.
This posting by proxy is further evidence to my mind of unpleasant, manipulative behaviour. Reporting @Telford's comments is inappropriate in multiple ways.
And - in all fairness to him - he has shown, and is showing, that he can participate in various threads without turning everything arse-about-face in order to point to him.
Well, sort of...
I think...
With respect you have got the wrong end of the stick. I introduced Telford to the ship and so when I see it's not gone as well as I had thought it might we discussed it.
There was no manipulation by any means. I can also stand my own ground and don't need to be told what to do.
There was genuine concern that by me speaking up it could cause me issues. After speaking to him further about it and how I felt he then said it's was up to me.
Well, it's up to you, yes, but do heed the words of those who have more experience of this forum that either you or Telford.
Just sayin' - and it's meant kindly (even though this is the Hot Place!).
You brought up real life interaction. How do you feel in the presence of somebody who's always reporting what someone close by that both of you know says about the situation you're discussing? This is known as triangling and you are a participant, wittingly or not. Stop.
"Disobeyed" seems like an odd choice of word to use in this context, as it seems to imply that Holly would have some kind of duty to follow Telford's instructions.
They don't.
And as far as I can see, @Eutychus is well out of order here.
@Holly has told us that they are a personal friend of @Telford. As far as I see, none of Holly's comments on this thread have been remotely inappropriate. It is completely natural for Holly and Telford to have discussed, in person, Telford's reception on these forums. It is normal, and creditable, for Telford to tell Holly they shouldn't associate themselves with him, as he's not all that popular. It is equally normal, and creditable, for Holly to tell him they weren't going to be dictated to by fear of a bunch of keyboard warriors who are unable to distinguish between Telford and friend-of-Telford.
Given that we're already in hell, I have no need to call @Eutychus here for his unpleasant and unfounded accusations of manipulative behaviour.
Wrong call, dude. You owe an apology.
That sounds to me like disobedience, though I concede that it could be construed as not taking advice...
Thankyou for explaining what I seem to have been struggling to get certain people to understand. I have predominantly based my thoughts on what I have read rather than what I have been told. The verbal conversations have been more about what has been felt rather than what's been said via everyone involved.
To be told I am triangling and being manipulated is absolutely ridiculous.
I haven't come into this thread lightly and don't plan to make it a permanent home but I will on my own accord stick up for someone close to me when needed without being accused of being a victim of Manipulation. That is gaslighting and scaremongering.
Note also I haven't actually said my relationship to Telford only that I know him in real life.
You seem to like to take the extreme example of what I must be thinking. You even accused me earlier of deliberately putting a small I in my post.
'Sounds to me', and 'I concede' are not exactly accusations, either.
I suggest that you read posts more carefully, and don't fling mud at people who wish you no harm.
I suppose we all can be guilty of not completely understanding the point someone has said or is trying to say. I do try and read the posts carefully and to reply accordingly. I certainly didn't think I was flinging any virtual mud but just trying to share my opinion while listening to what others are saying also.
It times like this when actually seeing someone's face is useful to get a fuller picture of what's being said.
Odd - you haven’t been on here apart from to defend Telford, once in January and now. How could it affect what folks here thought of you? - you have never engaged on the new (no longer new by a long stretch) Ship. 🤔
Nah, everyone here seems to say that, but it makes no sense, as the very concept and definition of trolling is all about intention. Therefore there is no inherent behaviour that is trolling. Describing the behaviour would be looking at things like inflammatory language, emotive language, and, as you say, persisting in a tangent.
You can't prove intention, as everyone is different. It is very possible for people to persist in a tangent when being asked to stop, without any wilful intent of being troublesome, but because they find it hard to stop, because the tangent is very important to them, because their brain isn't taking in all the info in the thread, or because they may lack the emotional maturity, or their social norms are quite different from the social norms in the group. It happens all the time in my local autism group, and with some of the autistic students I work with. (Not suggesting that Telford is autistic, but speaking giving this as an example - these ways of processing are not exclusive to autism.)
Which for no apparent good reason reminds me of the Dickwad theory: "Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Compleat Dickwad" Now that @Holly has shown up, and removed the Anonymity, Telford will have his tickey to heaven and away from your perception of his trollish demonism. (Which I don't completely share, because, well disagreeing is a good idea)
As I said in my original post I joined the original ship in 2001 and was on it for a good few years and made some really good friends. I mainly spent my time in All saints, Heaven and the Cafe. Life changes and so did the time I had available to post on the ship. Also probably Facebook played a big part in the change.
I've always had fond memories of my time on the ship and every so often would have a lurk to see what was happening.
When Telford said he was interested in joining a discussion board I suggested the ship and the same day that he registered I had to also as I hadn't realised the ship had moved to a new system.
There is nothing more to it than that I'm afraid.
I think at the end of the day people will always have their opinions and assumptions and no amount of discussion can change that.
I'm not under some covert mission to make everyone love Telford. The ship, as with any discussion board is about sharing opinions,thoughts, angst and worry etc.
If people don't like how he posts that is absolutely fine and I'm not here to change that.
I've explained to him how the ship works. I've even explained why people might be getting the hump. A virtual chat is a lot harder to grasp sometimes than in real life.
What I did struggle with was trying to justify and explain the reasons behind the extreme responses in the Hell forum which felt beyond the normal ofbeing pissed off at someone/something.
I ended up just saying "well that's just how the ship is"
It sat weird with me and the mulling over why that is ok just wouldn't go away hense my post on here.
Edited to add I didn't fully quote you at first as it didn't show the extra till I had posted my reply.
Telford and at least one other poster* arrived on the Ship to test the idea that we were all woolly, lefty, bleeding-heart liberals who had abandoned the idea of sin and punishment. Unlike the others, Telford is still here. I appreciate the fact that he is still willing to set out his views and opinions and take the flak for it, even if he doesn't really engage (if at all) with the arguments against. Consider him a challenge...
* I think one was called ThatcherWasRight, which was clearly a name to get people's backs up
The responses aren't extreme. And as I said before, Telford loves coming to Hell. Just not the thread with his name on it, to answer the legitimate questions that other posters here have of his (frankly awful) behaviour.
I'm honestly struggling to believe we're talking about the same person. We've no intention of banning him or anything like that unless he collects enough red marks against his name: we just wish he'd grow up and stop behaving like a dick.
I really don't think it is posting by proxy, and I find it weird that you're characterising it as such.
We have husband and wife couples on the Ship. And also people who generally mention at times what their other half has said. No-one jumps up and down and complains about 'posting by proxy' in those circumstances. And frankly, none of what @Holly has said has come across as "I am posting what someone else told me to say".
In other words, there is no general rule against someone mentioning what has been said in off-Ship conversations, and such a rule doesn't miraculously develop when the other party to the conversation is also a Shipmate.
Yes, it was petty.
Holly, if he wants support, banter, friendly chit chat, etc., he would get that by posting in All Saints and Heaven. People would be welcoming of him there - they wouldn't be holding against him that he was annoying in Purgatory. That's how it works here - people are generally called to Hell because people feel they are disrupting the serious debates. And people who struggle with social interaction and self awareness do tend to be given a harder time of it. Hell isn't about fairness - it's about people expressing frustrations with the people who annoy them most, and those do tend to be people who aren't so good at understanding and adapting to context, connecting with people, and reading the group dynamics. It's the same in real life, really, though in real life people are more likely to be ignored/ostracised if this is possible. Here their unpopularity is more obvious.
I'm not saying this to suggest it's okay, but just to explain what I have observed. I agree it can become bullying. I think on the old Ship, people often enjoyed having a big virtual punch-up in Hell, almost like it was a game, coming up with fun insults, whether they were the target or the attackers, but these days it does seem to be more a place for grumbling self-righteously about people who don't fit in, as if their difficulties with social interaction, understanding of context, logic, articulation, etc., were all a deliberate ploy to disrupt the settled decorum of the Ship as it is today. But it is absolutely fine to come to Hell and defend someone being attacked, and point out that people are being unfair, having double standards, etc. I do this sometimes.
That’s good.
Sort of. But it was a genuine irritation and we are allowed to speak our minds in Hell.
I’m glad about that and I hope you will stick around. The fact that you recommended the Ship to Telford explains why you then came to defend him. It made no sense before that.
The Ship remains a good place to be. I also recommend it to fiends. (See what I did there? 😝)Do you remember me from the old Ship? I’ve been sailing from the beginning.
Next time you speak to Telford could you ask him to come here with his gripes rather than spoiling good threads?
I have read everything that everyone has shared and took on board everything that is being said.
I wasn't expecting to take up nearly two pages of the thread but I'm glad it's had the chance to get talked through.
I think I'm going to now venture back up to heaven & All saints ( my comfort zone :-) )
Holly xxx
I'm really glad this discussion has happened - particular the part elegantly set out by @fineline above - I've sometimes worried that the Ship is too hard on people who speak from logic more than emotion and/or pick up social cues differently or not at all. Being socially clumsy or coming across as a jerk in writing are not the worst of all sins (I devoutly hope on my own account!) so it's good if the Ship can accommodate people who are not good at making themselves understood. I'm not applying these descriptions to Telford particularly - I'm commenting on a more general point where I've seen several posters get into trouble when I wondered if they were just being hyper logical or not picking up on others' emotions rather than actually meaning to cause trouble.
If you feel strongly enough about it then it's the right place.
I think it is. Whilst I disagree with Telford and find him/her frustrating there is an element of being rounded on here in a way that others who are very passive aggressive about their views never are.
Fair comment - I was just trying to express my slight unease on behalf of Holly, but I think you're probably right.
Anyway, all's well that ends well, it seems.