No risk of hugging here, Presbyerian or not: public worship in Wales is banned, last Sunday and for the next two (we had been open since since early August).
Our Place has been doing Forest Church for the children every Sunday, once meeting outside was permitted. They're very well catered for - better than the adults, some would say! We have a paid "families worker" and of course that makes a huge difference.
I am not sure how long Sunday services will be able to continue into November - I'm in a low-tier area but our number are rising fast.
That rules out Remembrance Sunday services, then, unless churches plan to relocate it to 15th November?
Ah well - at least you get out of having to sing (or perhaps just hear) the *National Anthem*...
Would that be "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" then? We never sing it, nor that other one about the Queen.
You're right though: Remembrance commemorations are severely restricted: "Acts of Remembrance that are outdoors at War Memorials or Cenotaphs are permitted to take place on 7 or 8 November. Indoor services are not permitted. Up to a maximum of 30 individuals, including event organisers, are permitted to gather outdoors and can take part".
Well, yes - I meant the English *National Anthem* - you know, the one about frustrating our enemies' knavish tricks...which will, of course, happen on 1st January as we run away, laughing maniacally, from the EU.
Remembrance commemorations are also severely restricted here, though not so much as in Wales. I understand that the usual shows of force military parades are off, but that minimalist wreath-laying will take place at outside War Memorials.
Church services are still, at the moment, permitted, but with the now usual limits on numbers attending. FatherInCharge intends to have the 2-minute silence, wreath-laying at the Memorials in church, and a cantor singing the National Anthem.
I think I may give it a miss. All those unctuous prayers for our useless, superannuated tourist attraction of a Head of State...
I acknowledge only one monarch, and it's not Betty Two.
By historical accident disaster she holds some form of official position in the church to which I rather reluctantly still belong, but it (and she) is a complete anachronism.
The political party to which I subscribe is republican...
As to Remembrance, I greatly dislike it too - not least for the assumption that everyone who joins the armed forces is automatically a Hero (some are, of course).
Not perhaps directly Plague-related, but maybe the reduction in militaristic nonsense this year may prove the beginning of a rethink about the whole Remembrance thing. Time for a change?
There is no memorial in my small town, except the names of those who died in two wars inscribed on the rood screen in church, and a hanging cross, so it is normally packed, with a separate event for younger people including most of the uniformed groups.
I think there will still be a short ceremony on the market square on either the 8th or 11th or both.
Given the military/naval background here, there are memorials galore!
Our Place's own memorials are (a) the reredos in the All Souls chapel - recording the 50+ names of those from the parish who died in WW1, and (b) a framed facsimile of the inscribed page in our former Altar Book, recording the names of the 5 members of the congregation who died in WW2.
AIUI the uniformed groups (Scouts etc.) will not be meeting and marching this year. A member of our congregation who helps lead a Guides group affiliated to another church tells me that she and the other leaders will have some sort of small ceremony at that church's memorial, but there'll only be half-a-dozen of them there.
As to Remembrance, I greatly dislike it too - not least for the assumption that everyone who joins the armed forces is automatically a Hero (some are, of course).
Not perhaps directly Plague-related, but maybe the reduction in militaristic nonsense this year may prove the beginning of a rethink about the whole Remembrance thing. Time for a change?
You haven't, by any chance, been hacking my computer? Those are both points (among others) which I am making in the sermon I've been writing.
As to Remembrance, I greatly dislike it too - not least for the assumption that everyone who joins the armed forces is automatically a Hero (some are, of course).
Not perhaps directly Plague-related, but maybe the reduction in militaristic nonsense this year may prove the beginning of a rethink about the whole Remembrance thing. Time for a change?
You haven't, by any chance, been hacking my computer? Those are both points (among others) which I am making in the sermon I've been writing.
As a fellow Remembrance Disliker, I feel like the Poppy Snoggers* are going to be out in force online if not in real life. Sadly I find jingoism almost impossible to avoid in Anglican churches around Remembrance and usually go to an RC or Quaker service - the Irish connections of many UK Catholic churches means that they tend to be more nuanced in my experience.
It seems incredible that participation in CND marches would be utterly mainstream for UK Christians at one point. It saddens me that many churches and individual Christians have not seriously adopted an anti-war stance, or at least an opposition to the military industrial complex.
*By which I mean those who treat wearing a poppy as a duty and anything else as treason, and the increasing evolution of a solemn occasion of Remembrance into a Poppymas celebration. When I was a child (as late as the 90s) you wore the standard paper poppy for the week of Remembrance and that was it, and nobody made a big deal about those not wearing it. Nowadays I don't wear a poppy (though as a non-pacifist I don't wear the white poppy either) and genuinely fear it being pointed out publicly.
FatherInCharge has produced a draft schedule of Christmas services, which he has circulated to various people (PCC/Readers/organists), asking for comments. Well, it's best to have some sort of Plan, even though no one has any idea of what restrictions might be in place in a couple of months' time.
The actual services seem workable, though I've suggested dropping Midnight Mass, and adding a First Mass of Christmas to the usual 5pm Crib Service on Christmas Eve. We could do a shortish Carols & Lessons Service (three readers - we have three microphones, and separate pulpit and lectern), with one or two cantors singing appropriate carols/songs, and perhaps some organ/piano music as well.
Alas, it has also been suggested that we have a mini-Christmas Fair in the Church after the Carol Service (and also after the Parish Mass on the same day, Advent 4) selling whatever Christmas tat we can - no refreshments allowed, of course! I strongly object to this, as ISTM that we should not be encouraging people to mix/mingle unnecessarily, and, although our finances are a bit low, the problem is not solved by risking the further spread of Covid-19. It's not too hard to maintain social distancing in the pews, as numbers attending Christmas services are usually fairly low anyway, but impossible to regulate with people milling around stalls...
Our Place is in one of the most deprived Council wards in England, and, with all the current difficulties (which are not likely to improve much between now and Christmas), I can't see there being much spare cash around to spend on tat - we have STARVING CHILDREN in our parish!
I'm waiting with interest to see what comments the other people consulted will make!
My feeling is that FInC is trying to do too much, but he wants people to have a choice of as many of the *usual* services as possible. I'm not sure he's even taken into account The Rule Of Six, but we'll see.
We have already cancelled the Christmas Fair. I will probably see who is advertising an online carol service nearer the time, as listening to carol solos isn't quite the same. It will be interesting to see what happens with the King's College offering this year. I doubt our usual start of Advent visit to Coventry Cathedral for their Advent Carol service will happen, although they are a big enough building to have some form of distanced congregation.
BF - I personally would bump the Crib Service up to about 3pm and have the First Mass of Christmas at ~5pm, but that's just a preference for services aimed at small children to be earlier. Less conflict with dinner and bedtime on an already excitable night! Otherwise that sounds very sensible. The Christmas Fair is of course a very bad idea.
(I'm privately thrilled at the cancellation of the Winchester cathedral Christmas market, even though I know it brings a lot of revenue - but social distancing on narrow medieval streets is already difficult enough)
I think some kind of Blue Advent service or other space for sadness/lack of excitement is going to be welcome during Advent - it will be a hard festive season for many. I personally would also make a bigger fuss of Holy Innocents this year given current events.
Thanks @Pomona - yes, we could put the Crib Service earlier, although my idea was to possibly combine it with the *First Mass*...
I have some ideas for a *Blue Christmas* service, in late Advent, but there seems to be little or no interest in it . Maybe something suitable (a prayer or reading) could be put into the *Carol Service*.
We will probably have our usual 10am Mass on Holy Innocents Day (Monday 28th IIRC).
All still to play for, of course - we're still in Tier 1, but cases of infection are rising fast in other parts of the county.
FatherInCharge has produced a draft schedule of Christmas services, which he has circulated to various people (PCC/Readers/organists), asking for comments. Well, it's best to have some sort of Plan, even though no one has any idea of what restrictions might be in place in a couple of months' time.
I suspect that what you need is more of a menu of possible plan ideas, from which to select as the Covid situation likely this Christmas becomes clearer.
For us, the best possible case is that we'll be able to hold in-person services with 50 people present. Limits of 10 or 25 are also possible. I think it unlikely that we'll be closed down completely.
It's clear that we're going to do zoom services for Christmas - even in the most optimistic scenario, more than half our community isn't ready to come to physical church. We've been distributing the sacrament for people to be able to do communion by extension at home, privately, but haven't tried that within the context of a zoom service. It's a possibility, although not everyone wants to do communion-at-home, and we wouldn't want those people to feel excluded.
I think with 50 people, we'd do a physical service or two at Christmas as well, but the kiddie service isn't going to happen, and there won't be singing. I suspect few people would be interested in Nine Lessons Without Carols. With 10 people, I don't think we'd do anything unless we miraculously acquire the ability to stream video from the church by Christmas. With 25, it still seems impractical to offer enough services to allow everyone that wants to attend.
I suspect that what you need is more of a menu of possible plan ideas, from which to select as the Covid situation likely this Christmas becomes clearer.
unless we miraculously acquire the ability to stream video from the church by Christmas.
I suppose it depends on what sort of quality you insist on. We have found that a single strategically placed smart phone streaming to F******k is adequate. Picture and sound are just about OK.
Out current physical limit is between 30 and 40, depending on how many are sitting together in family groups. This is roughly half of our pre-lockdown regular Sunday congregation.
The number viewing live seems to vary between 10 and 40, with more dipping in during the week.
That seems to indicate that we are engaging as many each week as we did pre-lockdown, but it is not exactly the same people. About a quarter of those now attending regularly are new. Also some of our regulars have an aversion to streamed services.
Yes, we've found that a phone and Farcebark are OK.
Live viewings seem to range from just one or two to a dozen, but by the end of the week the number of views has gone up to 40+. Of course, we don't know how many actual individual persons that total includes!
My impression is that we are engaging with about 50% more than pre-lockdown, and it is heartening to see that the majority of our Usual Suspects (Regulars and Irregulars) are once more in church - at least now and then...
Yes, we've found that a phone and Farcebark are OK.
"Farcebark"
Our Place are due to have the first official service since lockdown tomorrow - I suspect it will also be the last for a while. Plans have been afoot to livestream services and I guess they may be accelerated.
They may need to be - one small crumb of comfort is that the facility is now in place for many churches, where it might not have been earlier in the year.
It might be that *places of worship* will be allowed to continue to be open, but I doubt it.
In fact, I've just prepared a suitable poster for our outside notice boards, explaining that owing to the lockdown, the church is closed, and services are cancelled until further notice. I haven't yet printed or laminated it, though...
Whereas Wales is sticking to the line that the firebreak will end on November 9th, that places of worship (among others) will re-open, and that there won't be a national lockdown. However there will be some national rules about 'gathering' and we haven't yet been told what they will be.
FatherInCharge is waiting for further guidance/instructions/diktat from Head Office, as the C of E may decide NOT to allow churches to open for private prayer.
Given the need to reduce social contact as much as possible (and it may only be for a month - though I have my doubts, as I fear we may still be in lockdown at Christmas), that might not be a bad idea. We could, I think, open up for an hour or so at our usual time on the four remaining November Sunday mornings, as we did before.
(It's not that long ago, but I can't for the life of me remember whether we opened at all on one or two weekdays, back in Lockdown 1...).
FatherInCharge is waiting for further guidance/instructions/diktat from Head Office, as the C of E may decide NOT to allow churches to open for private prayer.
I think that ++Justin dare not say that, nor prohibit ministers from going into their churches - if he does, there will be riots in the Quires and Place where they Sing (all socially distanced, of course), not to mentions Questions in Synod.
Our former churchwarden, who died in May, had the prescribed minimalist funeral - just 6 in attendance, I think. It was live-streamed, but was rather a long way from the full-on Funeral Mass he (and his family) wanted.
As much as I miss Normal Church, I can't help but think that a lockdown Christmas may have some benefits from a church perspective at least.
Clergy and volunteers run less ragged and less burnout, less pressure on gift giving, more space to consider those who are always isolated and lonely....I certainly think it will be an Advent closer to the historical nature of Advent being a mini Lent, which I don't think will be a bad thing in terms of spirituality.
Of course I'm not ignoring how hard things will be in many other ways, but this could be a huge opportunity for the Church....
Do ship-mates have a view on church etc leaders protesting about the latest lockdown?
My view FWIW is that with people losing jobs and businesses, health and lives, and old folk being incarcerated in care homes, special pleading from bishops etc is not a good look at all.
I've been part of a discussion "elsewhere" and views seem very mixed on this. Personally I'd agree with you, but others are seeing this as unwarranted or even an infringement of their rights. I would imagine that the closure of church buildings has a greater impact on Christians for whom the Sacraments are a very central part of their faith and practice.
I've been part of a discussion "elsewhere" and views seem very mixed on this. Personally I'd agree with you, but others are seeing this as unwarranted or even an infringement of their rights. I would imagine that the closure of church buildings has a greater impact on Christians for whom the Sacraments are a very central part of their faith and practice.
Yes.
But when I see people claiming that things are an infringement of their rights I rarely see them admitting to their responsibilities towards the wider community. I can't stop myself from picturing Trump supporters in red baseball caps.
I'll pass on your first link as I have to care for my blood pressure.
My own Diocesan bishop sent out an email on Saturday evening to all his clergy and licensed lay ministers.
He didn't pre-empt anything the Archbishop(s) might say, but he made it clear that from his POV it was important that the Church, as represented by his parishes, should continue to pray, and to strive as much as possible to serve those most in need, despite the difficulties.
Obviously, each parish will have its own way(s) of doing this, but I was interested to note that the Bishop didn't whinge or complain about churches being deprived of communal worship, including the loss pro tem of the Sacraments.
I haven't read it yet, but I gather that ++Justin has expressed his disapproval of the cessation of public worship, but that he (and the Church in general, I suppose) will stick to the *government* guidance/diktat...
I agree with @Alan29 - and IIRC the Muslim community, whose Eid celebrations were cancelled with almost no warning or notice, simply gritted their teeth, and coped. Christians can do the same.
Our PP talked about it on Sunday. He is very grateful that at least we can hold funerals this time. On the previous lockdown he found himself conducting 15 minute graveside funerals in dreadful weather like something out of a bleak Ibsen play.
Comments
Ah well - at least you get out of having to sing (or perhaps just hear) the *National Anthem*...
I am not sure how long Sunday services will be able to continue into November - I'm in a low-tier area but our number are rising fast.
You're right though: Remembrance commemorations are severely restricted: "Acts of Remembrance that are outdoors at War Memorials or Cenotaphs are permitted to take place on 7 or 8 November. Indoor services are not permitted. Up to a maximum of 30 individuals, including event organisers, are permitted to gather outdoors and can take part".
Remembrance commemorations are also severely restricted here, though not so much as in Wales. I understand that the usual shows of force military parades are off, but that minimalist wreath-laying will take place at outside War Memorials.
Church services are still, at the moment, permitted, but with the now usual limits on numbers attending. FatherInCharge intends to have the 2-minute silence, wreath-laying at the Memorials in church, and a cantor singing the National Anthem.
I think I may give it a miss. All those unctuous prayers for our useless, superannuated tourist attraction of a Head of State...
I dislike Remembrance greatly, for many reasons, and am always surprised that Christians are reluctant to question it.
By historical accident disaster she holds some form of official position in the church to which I rather reluctantly still belong, but it (and she) is a complete anachronism.
The political party to which I subscribe is republican...
As to Remembrance, I greatly dislike it too - not least for the assumption that everyone who joins the armed forces is automatically a Hero (some are, of course).
Not perhaps directly Plague-related, but maybe the reduction in militaristic nonsense this year may prove the beginning of a rethink about the whole Remembrance thing. Time for a change?
There is no memorial in my small town, except the names of those who died in two wars inscribed on the rood screen in church, and a hanging cross, so it is normally packed, with a separate event for younger people including most of the uniformed groups.
I think there will still be a short ceremony on the market square on either the 8th or 11th or both.
Our Place's own memorials are (a) the reredos in the All Souls chapel - recording the 50+ names of those from the parish who died in WW1, and (b) a framed facsimile of the inscribed page in our former Altar Book, recording the names of the 5 members of the congregation who died in WW2.
AIUI the uniformed groups (Scouts etc.) will not be meeting and marching this year. A member of our congregation who helps lead a Guides group affiliated to another church tells me that she and the other leaders will have some sort of small ceremony at that church's memorial, but there'll only be half-a-dozen of them there.
Er, no Guv. On me Muvver's grave, I swear it...
Yes, I'm afraid that might happen - unless (God forbid) we are still subject to Ye Plague this time next year...
It seems incredible that participation in CND marches would be utterly mainstream for UK Christians at one point. It saddens me that many churches and individual Christians have not seriously adopted an anti-war stance, or at least an opposition to the military industrial complex.
*By which I mean those who treat wearing a poppy as a duty and anything else as treason, and the increasing evolution of a solemn occasion of Remembrance into a Poppymas celebration. When I was a child (as late as the 90s) you wore the standard paper poppy for the week of Remembrance and that was it, and nobody made a big deal about those not wearing it. Nowadays I don't wear a poppy (though as a non-pacifist I don't wear the white poppy either) and genuinely fear it being pointed out publicly.
l I believe you. Just don't do it again.
*wrings cloth cap between hands*
@Pomona - I too don't wear a white poppy, but I do usually wear a tiny enamel red poppy - on Remembrance Sunday only.
However ... this has nothing to with Covid-19 church workarounds. [Withdraws knuckles quickly before they are rapped for junior hosting].
FatherInCharge has produced a draft schedule of Christmas services, which he has circulated to various people (PCC/Readers/organists), asking for comments. Well, it's best to have some sort of Plan, even though no one has any idea of what restrictions might be in place in a couple of months' time.
The actual services seem workable, though I've suggested dropping Midnight Mass, and adding a First Mass of Christmas to the usual 5pm Crib Service on Christmas Eve. We could do a shortish Carols & Lessons Service (three readers - we have three microphones, and separate pulpit and lectern), with one or two cantors singing appropriate carols/songs, and perhaps some organ/piano music as well.
Alas, it has also been suggested that we have a mini-Christmas Fair in the Church after the Carol Service (and also after the Parish Mass on the same day, Advent 4) selling whatever Christmas tat we can - no refreshments allowed, of course! I strongly object to this, as ISTM that we should not be encouraging people to mix/mingle unnecessarily, and, although our finances are a bit low, the problem is not solved by risking the further spread of Covid-19. It's not too hard to maintain social distancing in the pews, as numbers attending Christmas services are usually fairly low anyway, but impossible to regulate with people milling around stalls...
Our Place is in one of the most deprived Council wards in England, and, with all the current difficulties (which are not likely to improve much between now and Christmas), I can't see there being much spare cash around to spend on tat - we have STARVING CHILDREN in our parish!
I'm waiting with interest to see what comments the other people consulted will make!
My feeling is that FInC is trying to do too much, but he wants people to have a choice of as many of the *usual* services as possible. I'm not sure he's even taken into account The Rule Of Six, but we'll see.
(I'm privately thrilled at the cancellation of the Winchester cathedral Christmas market, even though I know it brings a lot of revenue - but social distancing on narrow medieval streets is already difficult enough)
I think some kind of Blue Advent service or other space for sadness/lack of excitement is going to be welcome during Advent - it will be a hard festive season for many. I personally would also make a bigger fuss of Holy Innocents this year given current events.
I have some ideas for a *Blue Christmas* service, in late Advent, but there seems to be little or no interest in it
We will probably have our usual 10am Mass on Holy Innocents Day (Monday 28th IIRC).
All still to play for, of course - we're still in Tier 1, but cases of infection are rising fast in other parts of the county.
I suspect that what you need is more of a menu of possible plan ideas, from which to select as the Covid situation likely this Christmas becomes clearer.
For us, the best possible case is that we'll be able to hold in-person services with 50 people present. Limits of 10 or 25 are also possible. I think it unlikely that we'll be closed down completely.
It's clear that we're going to do zoom services for Christmas - even in the most optimistic scenario, more than half our community isn't ready to come to physical church. We've been distributing the sacrament for people to be able to do communion by extension at home, privately, but haven't tried that within the context of a zoom service. It's a possibility, although not everyone wants to do communion-at-home, and we wouldn't want those people to feel excluded.
I think with 50 people, we'd do a physical service or two at Christmas as well, but the kiddie service isn't going to happen, and there won't be singing. I suspect few people would be interested in Nine Lessons Without Carols. With 10 people, I don't think we'd do anything unless we miraculously acquire the ability to stream video from the church by Christmas. With 25, it still seems impractical to offer enough services to allow everyone that wants to attend.
I suppose it depends on what sort of quality you insist on. We have found that a single strategically placed smart phone streaming to F******k is adequate. Picture and sound are just about OK.
Out current physical limit is between 30 and 40, depending on how many are sitting together in family groups. This is roughly half of our pre-lockdown regular Sunday congregation.
The number viewing live seems to vary between 10 and 40, with more dipping in during the week.
That seems to indicate that we are engaging as many each week as we did pre-lockdown, but it is not exactly the same people. About a quarter of those now attending regularly are new. Also some of our regulars have an aversion to streamed services.
Live viewings seem to range from just one or two to a dozen, but by the end of the week the number of views has gone up to 40+. Of course, we don't know how many actual individual persons that total includes!
My impression is that we are engaging with about 50% more than pre-lockdown, and it is heartening to see that the majority of our Usual Suspects (Regulars and Irregulars) are once more in church - at least now and then...
Our Place are due to have the first official service since lockdown tomorrow - I suspect it will also be the last for a while. Plans have been afoot to livestream services and I guess they may be accelerated.
It might be that *places of worship* will be allowed to continue to be open, but I doubt it.
In fact, I've just prepared a suitable poster for our outside notice boards, explaining that owing to the lockdown, the church is closed, and services are cancelled until further notice. I haven't yet printed or laminated it, though...
...interesting times...
FatherInCharge is waiting for further guidance/instructions/diktat from Head Office, as the C of E may decide NOT to allow churches to open for private prayer.
Given the need to reduce social contact as much as possible (and it may only be for a month - though I have my doubts, as I fear we may still be in lockdown at Christmas), that might not be a bad idea. We could, I think, open up for an hour or so at our usual time on the four remaining November Sunday mornings, as we did before.
(It's not that long ago, but I can't for the life of me remember whether we opened at all on one or two weekdays, back in Lockdown 1...).
Our former churchwarden, who died in May, had the prescribed minimalist funeral - just 6 in attendance, I think. It was live-streamed, but was rather a long way from the full-on Funeral Mass he (and his family) wanted.
Stranger things have happened....
Actually people would curse him if he changed his mind that late.
We shall see, but his promise of near-normality at Christmas does ring a bit hollow. Mind you, he didn't specify the year...
Clergy and volunteers run less ragged and less burnout, less pressure on gift giving, more space to consider those who are always isolated and lonely....I certainly think it will be an Advent closer to the historical nature of Advent being a mini Lent, which I don't think will be a bad thing in terms of spirituality.
Of course I'm not ignoring how hard things will be in many other ways, but this could be a huge opportunity for the Church....
My view FWIW is that with people losing jobs and businesses, health and lives, and old folk being incarcerated in care homes, special pleading from bishops etc is not a good look at all.
For a particular "view" on this, you might want to look at https://archbishopcranmer.com/communal-worship-banned-in-england/ - or not!
You may have seen this already (Wales has not permitted public worship for the last two Sundays): https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/police-called-church-going-ahead-19167381
Yes.
But when I see people claiming that things are an infringement of their rights I rarely see them admitting to their responsibilities towards the wider community. I can't stop myself from picturing Trump supporters in red baseball caps.
I'll pass on your first link as I have to care for my blood pressure.
He didn't pre-empt anything the Archbishop(s) might say, but he made it clear that from his POV it was important that the Church, as represented by his parishes, should continue to pray, and to strive as much as possible to serve those most in need, despite the difficulties.
Obviously, each parish will have its own way(s) of doing this, but I was interested to note that the Bishop didn't whinge or complain about churches being deprived of communal worship, including the loss pro tem of the Sacraments.
I haven't read it yet, but I gather that ++Justin has expressed his disapproval of the cessation of public worship, but that he (and the Church in general, I suppose) will stick to the *government* guidance/diktat...
I agree with @Alan29 - and IIRC the Muslim community, whose Eid celebrations were cancelled with almost no warning or notice, simply gritted their teeth, and coped. Christians can do the same.