But when I see people claiming that things are an infringement of their rights I rarely see them admitting to their responsibilities towards the wider community. I can't stop myself from picturing Trump supporters in red baseball caps.
Same here. And the Pastor in the church I mentioned, in his Facebook sermon yesterday morning, went on at length along the lines of Christians being commanded by God to worship, which no human law can countermand - with no mention of our responsibility to the wider community. (Mind you, I didn't listen right through to the end!) The fact that he is American may well mean that he has a different concept of "freedom" and "rights" to Europeans.
My bugbear is people in prayer meetings who tell God what he (it is he in these cases) commands and what he approves of, and so what we “know” he is going to do.
I dunno. We've been preaching for ever about the Church being the people not the building. How people should be praying, worshipping at home through the week anyway, regardless of where they are on a Sunday morning. We get an opportunity to demonstrate the reality of that and it seems some of us want to get right back into that holy box ASAP! Sitting on 'our' pews, singing 'our' music, having 'our' rites.
But I'll be honest. We do also need to meet as a fellowship. To stand physically in the same space and worship together; not just separately. However, I see it as a reasonable sacrifice of our privilege to do this for the sake of the communal health. In things lawful, we're asked to submit to authority (and I know that raises questions). And we're directed not to let the weak stumble because of our own assumed strength.
I love singing, I love being with people in fellowship, I love big churches filled with loads of people - or even my own little crowd of wonderful folks. It feeds me, it uplifts me. But do I also love the people around me enough to sacrifice my 'right' to these things for the sake of saving lives? WWJD?
Do ship-mates have a view on church etc leaders protesting about the latest lockdown?
My view FWIW is that with people losing jobs and businesses, health and lives, and old folk being incarcerated in care homes, special pleading from bishops etc is not a good look at all.
So long as the lockdowns are treating church gatherings on an equal basis with other activities that involve people being indoors, church leaders don't have a reason to protest. When politicians start playing favourites, and deciding to permit activities that when looked at rationally hold more risk of transmission than sitting 6 feet away from someone with a mask on in a church for an hour, then there are grounds for complaint.
It seems to me there's a difference between a government telling me I can't meet with other christians to do our stuff because Jesus is an evil subverter of the One True Government Authority and government telling me I can't meet with other christians because it might spread lurgies that will kill people's parents. grandparents, daughters, sons and that killing or at least making people very ill is not a particularly jovial thing to do.
But of course I'm not factoring in 5G and Gyna and creepy crawlies entwined in snot that will sneak around, infiltrate a few still-functioning brain cells, and make people vote/march/fight for The Other Side.
We managed our lockdown, and pray God won't have another,* with Zoom, phone calls, emails and the knowledge that With Love This Too Will Pass
Can I just second (from the big island to the west of him) what Zappa said. And that people did manage; in fact they were pretty inventive. The Australian Catholic bishops negotiated a small increase in the number of people allowed in the building, which meant there could be a dedicated camera operator for live-streamed services. As lockdown started a week before Easter. In the intervening six months, much work has been done on setting up live streams from cathedrals and other larger parishes on a permanent basis. We are now managing with less restrictions. Eg still have contact registers. It’s not perfect, but it’s a great deal better. Hang in there. If you carry on about anything it should be getting test and trace up to scratch.
Things have been going quite well and steadily since we re opened on 12th July following the lockdown. As I reported in an earlier post, most of our small mainly elderly and vulnerable congregation enthusiastically returned to church. We have been getting between 10 and 15 people every Sunday, which is very similar to before the lockdown. I had feared that we would very few return.
Each week we have continued each Sunday to have our Parish Mass. People have been very sensible, using hand sanitiser, socially distancing and wearing face coverings. We have not had any singing but have had some recorded music played through the sound system including, hymns, a psalm and the Gospel Acclamation. It has all been quite friendly and relaxed. We haven't had our own priest for nearly 10 years but our retired priests have continued to serve us well. One of our servers has been thurifer each week and so we have used incense as normal. When we look at so many churches around us that have not reopened, especially some of the larger evangelical churches, we rejoice that in our own quiet small way we have in some aspects been flourishing these last 4 months.
Very sad that we have now once again got to close our church to public worship. Sadly, I don't think that we have enough people, who are not vulnerable, to open our church on a regular basis for private prayer.
Some of our elderly people were quite distressed that we will not be able to have a Remembrance Sunday Service. This is especially difficult for the community as the War Memorial is positioned inside our church building and not outside. I have suggested that we open the church building for private prayer on Sunday morning but that now is for the churchwardens to act upon. We are having an All Souls' Requiem Mass tomorrow morning, the day before lockdown, and the retired priest celebrating is intending to include an Act of Remembrance and 2 minutes silence within this Mass.
The Prime Minister himself assures us that Lockdown Two will only last until 2nd December, so I really don't see that it's too much of a burden to refrain from communal worship for a month, for the sake of the wider community.
@Pseudo Organist - I wouldn't normally like the idea of combining All Souls with Remembrance Sunday, but, under the circumstances, I think your priest is doing the best he can.
I think those church leaders complaining would do well to look at other faith communities especially Muslims, who as BF pointed out had Eid cancelled with basically no notice. We have the PM prioritising Christmas but not Hanukkah or Diwali, and Christian worship practices have informed much of the Covid legislation on worship - using places of worship for individual, solitary prayer is a very Christian thing and doesn't translate that well for other faiths where prayer is almost always communal by default. Special pleading now when we can still hold funerals and have private prayer seems selfish and in very poor taste.
I'm someone for whom the Sacraments are central, but I take a dim view of those willing to risk others' lives to access them. That to me is an abuse of the Sacraments God has given to us for the benefit of the Church, ie all of us. If it's unsafe for us to have them then it's better to abstain. I honestly think that permitting services at such a time would be encouraging improper receiving of the Eucharist, which is a serious sin.
I personally worry about Christmas being 'saved' causing dangerously packed Christmas Eve/Day services and would welcome lockdown lasting until Epiphany, at least.
I think those church leaders complaining would do well to look at other faith communities especially Muslims, who as BF pointed out had Eid cancelled with basically no notice. We have the PM prioritising Christmas but not Hanukkah or Diwali, and Christian worship practices have informed much of the Covid legislation on worship - using places of worship for individual, solitary prayer is a very Christian thing and doesn't translate that well for other faiths where prayer is almost always communal by default. Special pleading now when we can still hold funerals and have private prayer seems selfish and in very poor taste.
I'm someone for whom the Sacraments are central, but I take a dim view of those willing to risk others' lives to access them. That to me is an abuse of the Sacraments God has given to us for the benefit of the Church, ie all of us. If it's unsafe for us to have them then it's better to abstain. I honestly think that permitting services at such a time would be encouraging improper receiving of the Eucharist, which is a serious sin.
I personally worry about Christmas being 'saved' causing dangerously packed Christmas Eve/Day services and would welcome lockdown lasting until Epiphany, at least.
This. I'd not thought of the improper receiving of the Eucharist, but I agree with you.
The only other thing I'd say is that I don't think the PM is thinking in terms of Christmas as a "Christian" festival but as a "family" one ... which, as you say, doesn't exactly say anything to Muslims who love to gather for Eid!
Pseudo Organist - that does seem difficult with the War Memorial being inside, and I don't envy your priest at all. I think though, that surely living purposefully and well is the better form of Remembrance for wars where people died pointlessly and painfully, and that means avoiding more people dying pointlessly and painfully from Covid. Isn't the point of 'never again' that we do what is best for all of us as a community rather than selfishly fighting over 'what's mine'? Perhaps some of those elderly parishoners would do well to remember that, and that their dead loved ones probably wouldn't want them to pass a deadly disease onto others simply so they could go to one church service. Surely Remembrance is a matter of the heart and not an external service anyway?
I'd be almost tempted to get a large photo made of said War Memorial and stick it up outside the church, or place it on an easel, to act as a focal point. On the other hand, that might give the impression that the Memorial itself (or photo thereof) was the object of worship!
(Actually I wouldn't go to that bother because I find the whole War Memorial/Remembrance/"The Fallen" thing deeply troubling and problematic).
@Pseudo Organist - I wouldn't normally like the idea of combining All Souls with Remembrance Sunday, but, under the circumstances, I think your priest is doing the best he can.
That’s exactly how I feel. I don’t think the two should be mixed. However, under the current circumstances, I think the priest is probably doing the right thing. We had delayed our All Souls Mass until Wednesday 4th November to enable the church building and everything within it to be left untouched for at least 72 hours after Sunday. We have only been having one midweek Mass on Wednesdays for that reason since we re opened in July. Usually we have a Mass on Tuesday, a Walsingham Mass once a month on Saturday plus any major festivals and Saints days.
Our Place is fortunate in having three chapels (Lady Chapel, All Souls, and Blessed Sacrament), along with the nave, the chancel, and the new 'pop-up' chapel at the west end of the nave (St Gopak's). That enables FatherInCharge to say a daily Mass, using each area in turn, so that there's sufficient time between each use for Ye Pestilence to begone...
I'd be almost tempted to get a large photo made of said War Memorial and stick it up outside the church, or place it on an easel, to act as a focal point. On the other hand, that might give the impression that the Memorial itself (or photo thereof) was the object of worship!
(Actually I wouldn't go to that bother because I find the whole War Memorial/Remembrance/"The Fallen" thing deeply troubling and problematic).
I had much the same thought. Our WW1 Memorial is the former High Altar reredos, removed to the side chapel (All Souls/Requiem), and inscribed with the 50+ names of men from our parish who died in the conflict. The WW2 Memorial is an inscribed page in our former Altar Book (English Missal!), now out of use, but I had a facsimile of the page made, framed, and hung on the wall of the All Souls Chapel.
We could, I guess, do as you suggest, but it would indeed look a bit odd! We have a book, produced for us by a local historian, listing the WW1 dead and giving as many details of them (address, family etc.) as he could find. This book could form the focus of an outside Act of Remembrance, which would just include suitable prayers, a Bible reading, and the 2-minute silence.
I don't yet know if FInC has thought of anything along these lines - AFAIK he's still waiting for instructions from the Archdemondeacon.
I think those church leaders complaining would do well to look at other faith communities especially Muslims, who as BF pointed out had Eid cancelled with basically no notice. We have the PM prioritising Christmas but not Hanukkah or Diwali, and Christian worship practices have informed much of the Covid legislation on worship - using places of worship for individual, solitary prayer is a very Christian thing and doesn't translate that well for other faiths where prayer is almost always communal by default. Special pleading now when we can still hold funerals and have private prayer seems selfish and in very poor taste.
I'm someone for whom the Sacraments are central, but I take a dim view of those willing to risk others' lives to access them. That to me is an abuse of the Sacraments God has given to us for the benefit of the Church, ie all of us. If it's unsafe for us to have them then it's better to abstain. I honestly think that permitting services at such a time would be encouraging improper receiving of the Eucharist, which is a serious sin.
I personally worry about Christmas being 'saved' causing dangerously packed Christmas Eve/Day services and would welcome lockdown lasting until Epiphany, at least.
This. I'd not thought of the improper receiving of the Eucharist, but I agree with you.
The only other thing I'd say is that I don't think the PM is thinking in terms of Christmas as a "Christian" festival but as a "family" one ... which, as you say, doesn't exactly say anything to Muslims who love to gather for Eid!
I think the PM is thinking in terms of Christmas being a moneyspinner in a way other religious festivals aren't (the commercial aspect of Easter seems more separate to the religious aspect, partly because chocolate crucifixes aren't very popular).
I have every sympathy with businesses (and charities) which will struggle this Christmas, and of course if we can get R right down by December that would be wonderful. I just don't think it's likely and I don't think in the current circumstances that churches should plan for it.
I think churches should have some sort of contingency plan for perhaps minimalist Christmas services, just in case!
For example, Our Place (if we can open) could have the usual morning Mass on Advent 4, with (if any are present) children assembling the Crib scene during the homily.
Then, on Christmas Eve, we could have a simple First Mass of Christmas at around 5pm, preceded by the Blessing of the Crib.
No Midnight Mass.
Christmas morning Mass, with Prayers at (or near) the Crib.
A *Music and Readings for Christmas* service has been suggested, but I wonder if we might do better to save that for Epiphanytide...
A *Music and Readings for Christmas* service has been suggested, but I wonder if we might do better to save that for Epiphanytide...
Depends. The Great Unwashed British Public think (a) that the "run-up to Christmas" has already started and (b) that Christmas ends when the Sales start at some ridiculous hour on Boxing Day. I mean: Epiphany is next year!
On the other hand, if such a service is aimed at Ye Faithful, then go for it.
The traders on the Golden Mile in Leicester are none too pleased at the loss of trade at their busiest time of the year - Diwali. Having already been hit by two lockdowns, many think their businesses will not survive.
Yes indeed, I feel very sorry for those whose religious festivals aren't considered economically important enough to permit - there's a fairly large Nepalese community here thanks to the local military bases (more in the northern part of the county around Aldershot/Farnborough) and it's a real shame for them. For the Gurkha community especially, losing both public Remembrance events and Diwali must be very hard.
I find it embarrassing to see what little solidarity many Christians seem to have with other religious groups in these circumstances 😞 To be fair I am always embarrassed by Christian Concern anyway....
The majority of evangelical churches are still meeting wholly or mostly online. This is interesting to me - clearly they don't feel that they can meet without congregational singing. Don't get me wrong, I really miss congregational singing too but I don't think in-person church is pointless without it.
most of our parishioners are going to want to hug each other.
I worship with Presbyterians. There's... no risk of that whatsoever.
Clearly you haven’t worshipped with Presbyterians from the American South.
The majority of evangelical churches are still meeting wholly or mostly online. This is interesting to me - clearly they don't feel that they can meet without congregational singing. Don't get me wrong, I really miss congregational singing too but I don't think in-person church is pointless without it.
most of our parishioners are going to want to hug each other.
I worship with Presbyterians. There's... no risk of that whatsoever.
Clearly you haven’t worshipped with Presbyterians from the American South.
We had a visiting minister from South Carolina last year but she's technically a Methodist, and I understand they're given to Enthusiasm.
Just to say Presbyterians in Scotland are renowned for seriousness. It has been reported that the CofS is the only body rising by the force of gravity.
Just to say Presbyterians in Scotland are renowned for seriousness. It has been reported that the CofS is the only body rising by the force of gravity.
Oh, I know. Just joking that the Kirk’s spiritual descendants in the American South—or at least many of them—seem to have lost that particular trait.
Just to say Presbyterians in Scotland are renowned for seriousness. It has been reported that the CofS is the only body rising by the force of gravity.
Oh, I know. Just joking that the Kirk’s spiritual descendants in the American South—or at least many of them—seem to have lost that particular trait.
I'm reminded of the joke about the Kirk Elder who loved his wife so much he almost told her.
Just to say Presbyterians in Scotland are renowned for seriousness. It has been reported that the CofS is the only body rising by the force of gravity.
Oh, I know. Just joking that the Kirk’s spiritual descendants in the American South—or at least many of them—seem to have lost that particular trait.
I'm reminded of the joke about the Kirk Elder who loved his wife so much he almost told her.
Comments
Well, the *commands* that suit their purposes, anyway...
But I'll be honest. We do also need to meet as a fellowship. To stand physically in the same space and worship together; not just separately. However, I see it as a reasonable sacrifice of our privilege to do this for the sake of the communal health. In things lawful, we're asked to submit to authority (and I know that raises questions). And we're directed not to let the weak stumble because of our own assumed strength.
I love singing, I love being with people in fellowship, I love big churches filled with loads of people - or even my own little crowd of wonderful folks. It feeds me, it uplifts me. But do I also love the people around me enough to sacrifice my 'right' to these things for the sake of saving lives? WWJD?
IMHO, He'd agree with you...and so would His Blessed Mother...
(I accept, of course, that masks are necessary, but ISTM that we Humming Beans are not that good at smiling with our Eyes. A skill we have to learn?).
I use one of those Perspex visor jobbies - they don't steam up the specs while I am playing background music at the clavinova.
So long as the lockdowns are treating church gatherings on an equal basis with other activities that involve people being indoors, church leaders don't have a reason to protest. When politicians start playing favourites, and deciding to permit activities that when looked at rationally hold more risk of transmission than sitting 6 feet away from someone with a mask on in a church for an hour, then there are grounds for complaint.
Teehee.
Seriously, I thought the visors were supposed to be less effective than masks at preventing onward transmission of Foul Plague-Ridden Droplets?
Ouch!
Might explain the run on bog rolls (see what I did there?).
But of course I'm not factoring in 5G and Gyna and creepy crawlies entwined in snot that will sneak around, infiltrate a few still-functioning brain cells, and make people vote/march/fight for The Other Side.
We managed our lockdown, and pray God won't have another,* with Zoom, phone calls, emails and the knowledge that With Love This Too Will Pass
*Though we are ready if/when it comes
Now that she's won the election, please will you lend us Jacinda?
Pretty please?
stpaulsstmarys.org.uk/
I expect the priest to receive an "interesting" phone call from his bishop.
Not much about responsibility towards the wider community.
I call it selfishness - which is all very well, until you start encouraging your flock to be selfish (individually, of course).
Each week we have continued each Sunday to have our Parish Mass. People have been very sensible, using hand sanitiser, socially distancing and wearing face coverings. We have not had any singing but have had some recorded music played through the sound system including, hymns, a psalm and the Gospel Acclamation. It has all been quite friendly and relaxed. We haven't had our own priest for nearly 10 years but our retired priests have continued to serve us well. One of our servers has been thurifer each week and so we have used incense as normal. When we look at so many churches around us that have not reopened, especially some of the larger evangelical churches, we rejoice that in our own quiet small way we have in some aspects been flourishing these last 4 months.
Very sad that we have now once again got to close our church to public worship. Sadly, I don't think that we have enough people, who are not vulnerable, to open our church on a regular basis for private prayer.
Some of our elderly people were quite distressed that we will not be able to have a Remembrance Sunday Service. This is especially difficult for the community as the War Memorial is positioned inside our church building and not outside. I have suggested that we open the church building for private prayer on Sunday morning but that now is for the churchwardens to act upon. We are having an All Souls' Requiem Mass tomorrow morning, the day before lockdown, and the retired priest celebrating is intending to include an Act of Remembrance and 2 minutes silence within this Mass.
@Pseudo Organist - I wouldn't normally like the idea of combining All Souls with Remembrance Sunday, but, under the circumstances, I think your priest is doing the best he can.
I'm someone for whom the Sacraments are central, but I take a dim view of those willing to risk others' lives to access them. That to me is an abuse of the Sacraments God has given to us for the benefit of the Church, ie all of us. If it's unsafe for us to have them then it's better to abstain. I honestly think that permitting services at such a time would be encouraging improper receiving of the Eucharist, which is a serious sin.
I personally worry about Christmas being 'saved' causing dangerously packed Christmas Eve/Day services and would welcome lockdown lasting until Epiphany, at least.
This. I'd not thought of the improper receiving of the Eucharist, but I agree with you.
The only other thing I'd say is that I don't think the PM is thinking in terms of Christmas as a "Christian" festival but as a "family" one ... which, as you say, doesn't exactly say anything to Muslims who love to gather for Eid!
(Actually I wouldn't go to that bother because I find the whole War Memorial/Remembrance/"The Fallen" thing deeply troubling and problematic).
That’s exactly how I feel. I don’t think the two should be mixed. However, under the current circumstances, I think the priest is probably doing the right thing. We had delayed our All Souls Mass until Wednesday 4th November to enable the church building and everything within it to be left untouched for at least 72 hours after Sunday. We have only been having one midweek Mass on Wednesdays for that reason since we re opened in July. Usually we have a Mass on Tuesday, a Walsingham Mass once a month on Saturday plus any major festivals and Saints days.
Our Place is fortunate in having three chapels (Lady Chapel, All Souls, and Blessed Sacrament), along with the nave, the chancel, and the new 'pop-up' chapel at the west end of the nave (St Gopak's). That enables FatherInCharge to say a daily Mass, using each area in turn, so that there's sufficient time between each use for Ye Pestilence to begone...
I had much the same thought. Our WW1 Memorial is the former High Altar reredos, removed to the side chapel (All Souls/Requiem), and inscribed with the 50+ names of men from our parish who died in the conflict. The WW2 Memorial is an inscribed page in our former Altar Book (English Missal!), now out of use, but I had a facsimile of the page made, framed, and hung on the wall of the All Souls Chapel.
We could, I guess, do as you suggest, but it would indeed look a bit odd! We have a book, produced for us by a local historian, listing the WW1 dead and giving as many details of them (address, family etc.) as he could find. This book could form the focus of an outside Act of Remembrance, which would just include suitable prayers, a Bible reading, and the 2-minute silence.
I don't yet know if FInC has thought of anything along these lines - AFAIK he's still waiting for instructions from the Archdemondeacon.
At least we won't have to sing (or listen to) that ghastly *National Anthem*. It's an ill wind...
I think the PM is thinking in terms of Christmas being a moneyspinner in a way other religious festivals aren't (the commercial aspect of Easter seems more separate to the religious aspect, partly because chocolate crucifixes aren't very popular).
I have every sympathy with businesses (and charities) which will struggle this Christmas, and of course if we can get R right down by December that would be wonderful. I just don't think it's likely and I don't think in the current circumstances that churches should plan for it.
For example, Our Place (if we can open) could have the usual morning Mass on Advent 4, with (if any are present) children assembling the Crib scene during the homily.
Then, on Christmas Eve, we could have a simple First Mass of Christmas at around 5pm, preceded by the Blessing of the Crib.
No Midnight Mass.
Christmas morning Mass, with Prayers at (or near) the Crib.
A *Music and Readings for Christmas* service has been suggested, but I wonder if we might do better to save that for Epiphanytide...
On the other hand, if such a service is aimed at Ye Faithful, then go for it.
My aim would be to involve some of our neighbouring churches (Anglican/Baptist/Sally Army...), which would require some time for organisation.
With No Singing Of Carols, I doubt if any of the unchurched would turn up - not many do, anyway, at the best of times.
I find it embarrassing to see what little solidarity many Christians seem to have with other religious groups in these circumstances 😞 To be fair I am always embarrassed by Christian Concern anyway....
We had a visiting minister from South Carolina last year but she's technically a Methodist, and I understand they're given to Enthusiasm.
Just to say Presbyterians in Scotland are renowned for seriousness. It has been reported that the CofS is the only body rising by the force of gravity.
I'm reminded of the joke about the Kirk Elder who loved his wife so much he almost told her.