US Election eve

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  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Abraham Lincoln had no religious affiliation. Thomas Jefferson rejected the divinity of Jesus but these two are as close as we come to atheists in the presidency.

    trump?
    Reagan?
    Nixon?

    Just because sone of these people use religion as part of their political shtick doesn't mean it's true. Also any of them who owned people, i.e. slaves.
    Sure. No true Christian puts sugar on his porridge.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thank you all for those details about Lincoln, I'll store them away.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Abraham Lincoln had no religious affiliation. Thomas Jefferson rejected the divinity of Jesus but these two are as close as we come to atheists in the presidency.

    trump?
    Reagan?
    Nixon?

    Just because sone of these people use religion as part of their political shtick doesn't mean it's true. Also any of them who owned people, i.e. slaves.

    No person who owned slaves was a Christian? Really? God must like you an awful lot, having given you the power to determine by fiat who is and is not a Christian.
  • I skimmed back, and didn't see how we came to discuss the religious-or-not beliefs of US presidents. But:

    --NP:

    Having a religious affiliation doesn't necessarily show whether it means to a person, or whether a person is any good at living the beliefs. Same for atheists, agnostics, and everyone else.

    Nixon was a Quaker.

    I just now did a search about Reagan's faith. Skimming down the list of hits, evidently he identified as Presbyterian. (Had RC dad and Presby mom.) It looks like many people feel that his faith's impact on his decision-making has been a neglected topic.

    T...from what I've seen and heard, I don't think religion (in the sense of relating to God, becoming a better person, etc.) makes any sense to him. And that's ok. But I think evangelicals who wanted to use him pushed him into a born-again moment--for their own selfish reasons--and have ruthlessly used him. He's used them, too, in the sense of using their language to play to his base of evangelical supporters. But he's done that, too, with everyone else he thinks might help him in the moment to get what he wants.

    However, the evangelicals who used him are supposed to have consciences, to know better than to do that, and to do better.

    I'm a universalist, and don't believe in hell. But these evangelicals presumably do, or say they do. Given pushing T into a false conversion; convincing themselves that he's like the Gentile king Cyrus the Great in the OT/Hebrew scriptures, someone God called to a special purpose, and who fulfilled it; and the totally bonkers idea that T is some kind of Second Coming...

    ISTM that's a baseball "three strikes, and you're OUT" situation.

    I don't envy what they'll feel if/when they finally figure that out.

    FYI: some Jews (like Israeli PM Netanyahu) make the link with Cyrus, too, based on T's support of Israel. That I can understand, a bit. But, AFAIK, they haven't forced him into that role, nor into a false conversion.

    However, T does have something like 50 years of influence from Dr. Norman Vincent Peale--in person, at church, and in performing at least 2 of T's weddings. NVP specialized in "the power of positive thinking", creating the reality you want, etc. Had a big impact on T, his dad, and his dad's treatment of T's ailing mom.

    --Unitarian presidents? I'm not sure I've ever heard of any. Some of the founding guys were theists or deists. (I don't remember the difference; but I think they're both along the lines of "God is the Creator, and only concerned with the big picture".)

    --Jefferson also edited the Bible (NT, I think) into "The Jefferson Bible". A cut-and-paste job. What might he have done with a computer and a word-processing app?
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Golden Key, regarding Nixon, I know there are different streams of Quakers, but I do remember at least one asking Nixon not to keep claiming he was a Quaker while waging war in other countries.
  • ECraigR wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Abraham Lincoln had no religious affiliation. Thomas Jefferson rejected the divinity of Jesus but these two are as close as we come to atheists in the presidency.

    trump?
    Reagan?
    Nixon?

    Just because sone of these people use religion as part of their political shtick doesn't mean it's true. Also any of them who owned people, i.e. slaves.

    No person who owned slaves was a Christian? Really? God must like you an awful lot, having given you the power to determine by fiat who is and is not a Christian.

    Moreover, and admittedly inconveniently, Paul writes to Philemon as a fellow Christian.
  • Well, it's just past Tuesday 7:30pm here. Love to you all.
  • There was a PBS America programme on Quakers, mostly in America, which addressed the subject of Nixon. Brought up a Quaker, but in the programmed worship stream, he did not attend Meetings in Washington, a choice which was explained as being that the Meeting there was unprogrammed, and would open up the possibility that the Spirit might move ministry on the subject of not being responsible for war in Vietnam. It did mention what worship he did engage in as President, but I have not retained that information, though it wasn't Quaker.
  • Best of luck over there; nil carborundum illegitimi.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Thanks Penny, that jogs my memory a bit. I think I particularly remembered it because I have always admired the Quaker peace traditions. I first met local Quakers at Vietnam war protests.
  • Penny S wrote: »
    There was a PBS America programme on Quakers, mostly in America, which addressed the subject of Nixon. Brought up a Quaker, but in the programmed worship stream, he did not attend Meetings in Washington, a choice which was explained as being that the Meeting there was unprogrammed, and would open up the possibility that the Spirit might move ministry on the subject of not being responsible for war in Vietnam. It did mention what worship he did engage in as President, but I have not retained that information, though it wasn't Quaker.

    I read somewhere that the version of Quakerism followed by Nixon's family was somewhat clappy-happy, but, both by Nixon himself("my gentle Quaker mother"), and in the popular imagination(see Oliver Stone), it was rendered to fit more the traditional image also seen on the porridge box.

    No idea what to make of that. I do know that the movie ends with a solemn rendition of the hymn Shenandoah, which leaves the audience with the impression that it's a Quaker tune, when in fact, it seems to have no particular connection with them.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I know Shenandoah as a folk song or shanty, but not a hymn by that name. I would be interested to see it. Have you got a link?
  • It's a song about a river, and IIRC wistful reminiscing. I can see how an instrumental version might sound like a hymn.
  • There are almost certainly hymns that have been set to that tune.
  • The end credits for Nixon do not seem to be on-line, but the version used is by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and you can find them singing it on YouTube. (Not sure if it's the exact recording used in the film, but sounds similar anyway).

    And, contra Golden Key, the version used in the film includes the lyrics. I wasn't really paying attention to them, though, and I think the song might have just loosely registered in my mind as a hymn. I think Stone was definitely going for a Quaker ambience, anyway.
  • By the way, did you(as in, anyone reading this) know that there have been only two Quaker vs. Catholic match-ups in US presidential elections, and between the founding of the republic and 2004 no one else from either faith ran for president?

    IOW...

    1928 Hoover(Quaker) vs. Smith(Catholic)

    1960 Nixon vs. Kennedy

    It wasn't until 2004 that a ticket was again fronted by a Catholic. There have been no other Quakers since Nixon made his comeback in '72.







  • To bring this closer to the original topic, I just got done voting. There was a line, but not unduly long. Everything was peaceful and friendly. And I got my "I voted" sticker.

    What are other shippies Election Day experiences?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Dave W wrote: »
    No true Christian puts sugar on his porridge.

    Maple syrup, please!
  • Salt.
  • Given that we're not debating whether a country can be Christian, the Spanish Inquisition and any other structure beyond a person...

    And it's not about me or anyone else deciding in God's after-you're-dead interview who qualifies as damned, saved or Christian**. It's about you and me judging when some leader self-describes themselves as Christian, whether they're full of it and if they're basically making it up because it's politically useful. Reagan, Nixon, trump - all crap. Johnson - did he profess? He's also on the list of full of crapola.


    **If there is a hell, in the well-loved torture chamber of forever sense, and God does judge based on truth, some of the people who've uttered empty Jesus prayers and temporarily had the ecstasy of born again-ness while conducting themselves atrociously, well, do the math. And I don't actually hold this sort of judgement belief, but I do believe we're entitled to judge the professed beliefs of leaders. And we should.

    We could debate the non-Christian nature of Christian nations, but it's another topic.
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    To bring this closer to the original topic, I just got done voting. There was a line, but not unduly long. Everything was peaceful and friendly. And I got my "I voted" sticker.

    What are other shippies Election Day experiences?
    It still surprises me each time I see the TV showing lines of people waiting to vote and hear others say there was a line. I don't think I've ever queued to vote, certainly not outside the building. Either walk right up to the desk, or find there's one person already there and I need to wait the few seconds until they're done. Admittedly this is for a voting area with typically quite low turn out (70% ish) usually on my way to work (so 8.30am ish) or after work (so about 6pm). How in a wealthy nation like the US can the capacity for voting be so low that queues of a dozen or more can people form? Or, is that just at peak times and most of the day there's no queue at all?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    It still surprises me each time I see the TV showing lines of people waiting to vote and hear others say there was a line. I don't think I've ever queued to vote, certainly not outside the building. Either walk right up to the desk, or find there's one person already there and I need to wait the few seconds until they're done. Admittedly this is for a voting area with typically quite low turn out (70% ish) usually on my way to work (so 8.30am ish) or after work (so about 6pm).

    For reference, ~61% of voting age citizens voted in the 2016 presidential election, so what gets classified as "quite low turn out" is subjective.
    How in a wealthy nation like the US can the capacity for voting be so low that queues of a dozen or more can people form? Or, is that just at peak times and most of the day there's no queue at all?

    One of the two major political parties in the U.S. is actively hostile to voting and works hard to make it as difficult as possible. Here's conservative icon Paul Weyrich making this point explicitly back in 1980. Long lines to vote in less white urban areas isn't a failure of a wealthy nation, it's a policy decision deliberately designed to make voting as onerous as possible by a political faction whose policies are largely unpopular.

    Here's the Associated Press with an explainer that largely misses the point.
    Long voting lines on Election Day aren’t unusual or necessarily a sign of that something nefarious is afoot.

    They’re often the product of something as simple as heavier-than-expected turnout for an important election like Tuesday’s presidential, congressional and other races.

    Long lines also develop when there aren’t enough voting machines — either because some have malfunctioned or there just aren’t enough of them to comfortably manage the turnout — or when poll workers don’t show up for their assignments, leading to understaffing.

    Note the pretense that things like the number of voting machines or staffing levels at polling places are like uncontrollable forces of nature rather than deliberate policy decisions. Journalists who resort to the passive voice in cases like this are guilty of professional malpractice.
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    To bring this closer to the original topic, I just got done voting. There was a line, but not unduly long. Everything was peaceful and friendly. And I got my "I voted" sticker.

    What are other shippies Election Day experiences?
    It still surprises me each time I see the TV showing lines of people waiting to vote and hear others say there was a line. I don't think I've ever queued to vote, certainly not outside the building. Either walk right up to the desk, or find there's one person already there and I need to wait the few seconds until they're done. Admittedly this is for a voting area with typically quite low turn out (70% ish) usually on my way to work (so 8.30am ish) or after work (so about 6pm). How in a wealthy nation like the US can the capacity for voting be so low that queues of a dozen or more can people form? Or, is that just at peak times and most of the day there's no queue at all?

    I queued for quite a long time in the election last December in England. Probably at least 15 minutes, well after the work day had ended. Our polling station is probably smaller than it should be for the size of the area now, that's grown quite a lot. I was dressed as Father Christmas at the time, which was a bit of a talking point...
  • Queuing is a function not only of total turnout, but of time of day. People come to vote before work, after work, or on lunch break... That said, the longest line I've ever stood in was the one for Obama's first term, when I and my five-year-old child (?) stood for roughly three hours to get in.
  • Queuing is a function not only of total turnout, but of time of day. People come to vote before work, after work, or on lunch break.

    Holding elections on what is a work day for most people is also a policy decision, not some unchangeable law of nature.
  • It's going to be a work day for somebody, regardless of the day chosen. For quite a few people, actually.
  • It's going to be a work day for somebody, regardless of the day chosen. For quite a few people, actually.

    True enough, but patterns of work in the U.S. mean that some days have a greater proportion of people working a shift than others.
  • I'm in the UK and several occasions I've spent time (one or two hours per election) as a party recorder of polling card numbers. (Is it 'teller'?) So I've observed people entering the local Polling Station (five mins walk from home).

    As people enter we take their polling card numbers (if they're willing - some are suspicious!) to help with getting out the party vote later in the day. I don't remember a time when people spent more than (guessing) 10 mins in total inside to cast their vote.

    It may be interesting to compare how much is spent on the 'mechanics' of running elections between different countries. I don't know the cost here but I've noticed that there are six officials on duty when half that number would be ample IMO most of the time in one of three Polling Stations for a population of around 10k.
  • Surprisingly, Arizona is ahead of most of the U.S. with early voting (by mail or at early election sites). I haven't voted in person on Election Day in over 20 years. It is SO much easier and more comfortable to sit at my desk with my ballot, making my choices, checking propositions or candidates on-line, etc., than standing in line for goodness-knows-how-long so that I can then stand in a flimsy little booth and hurry through the ballot since I know many more people are waiting to vote. I dropped off my completed ballot on October 12 this year and verified on October 14 that it had been received and my signature verified.
  • Queuing is a function not only of total turnout, but of time of day. People come to vote before work, after work, or on lunch break... That said, the longest line I've ever stood in was the one for Obama's first term, when I and my five-year-old child (?) stood for roughly three hours to get in.

    Queuing to vote isn’t a thing here in the U.K. at all. I have voted at all times of day. I used to vote at peak period on the way home from work. These days I wander down at lunch time. No queue, maybe one person in front of me sometimes.

    I live in a very busy urban area.
  • Yeah, yeah, lovely to be you. So encouraging, folks. We've got to deal with what we've got, right now.
  • Yeah, yeah, lovely to be you. So encouraging, folks. We've got to deal with what we've got, right now.

    Indeed you do. But it may be worth lobbying for better next time. The assumption that things can’t change means things don’t change.

    All the best for today. I very much hope all goes well and peacefully.

    🕯

  • Aside from the reasons @Crœsos and @Lamb Chopped have given, it’s also worth remembering a fundamental difference between elections in the UK and the US: When UKers go to the polls, there is generally a single item on the ballot, such as one seat in Parliament, so it’s a quick mark and you’re done.

    That’s typically not the case for USians. I, for example, had 34 races (federal, state and local) to vote on, as well as a referendum. It takes a while to mark and then double-check that many things on the ballot, and that can contribute to long lines.

  • Yep, fair point Nick.
  • Queuing is a function not only of total turnout, but of time of day. People come to vote before work, after work, or on lunch break... That said, the longest line I've ever stood in was the one for Obama's first term, when I and my five-year-old child (?) stood for roughly three hours to get in.

    Also a function of the number of polling places. The GOP has been shutting down polling places with gleeful abandon, especially in parts of the South that are heavily populated by Blacks.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Aside from the reasons @Crœsos and @Lamb Chopped have given, it’s also worth remembering a fundamental difference between elections in the UK and the US: When UKers go to the polls, there is generally a single item on the ballot, such as one seat in Parliament, so it’s a quick mark and you’re done.

    That’s typically not the case for USians. I, for example, had 34 races (federal, state and local) to vote on, as well as a referendum. It takes a while to mark and then double-check that many things on the ballot, and that can contribute to long lines.
    Thanks Nick, I was aware that US elections tend to combine a variety of different votes. I hadn't appreciated it was quite that number. We usually separate local and national elections (the thinking is that when there's a national election the local issues don't get a chance to be heard and local candidates are judged on the performance of parties at a national level on issues irrelevant to the local authority - that was certainly what happened when the 2017 general election was called a month after the local elections, everything became just about Brexit for the whole of both campaigns).
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    I had roughly 14 races to decide, three suggested laws to opine on, and thirty judges to retain or dismiss from office. And that’s pretty standard. It’s why I do so much homework ahead of time, and why we have published guides and websites to collect candidate history and statements into 1 place, where they may be compared.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Dave W wrote: »
    No true Christian puts sugar on his porridge.

    Maple syrup, please!

    Honey from a local beekeeper.

    Back to the thread, FWIW the figures coming in here put Biden in a much better position in Florida than Clinton was 4 years ago. Time for the Trump camp to come out with the traditional chant of "It's early days yet".
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    To bring this closer to the original topic, I just got done voting. There was a line, but not unduly long. Everything was peaceful and friendly. And I got my "I voted" sticker.

    What are other shippies Election Day experiences?

    Here in Washington state, we have mail-in ballots or one can drop one's ballot in specially designed ballot boxes located all over. I dropped mine and my neighbor's ballot in yesterday. No one was milling around near the ballot box, specifically. A bus transit hub is right next to the ballot box, which I like a lot, as I don't drive.
  • I voted early last Friday around noon after book shopping. Quite painless, minus the cold. I probably only waited in line for 15 minutes. My friend voted this morning at 630, equally painless, but short lines then. I drove past a polling location on my way to work this afternoon and didn’t see any large lines, and the local NPR station is reporting short wait times and things running smoothly in the region. But we’re in New York, so that may explain some.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    The news coming through here, even at this very early stage, is not discouraging.
  • Yikes, you rat! My anxiety level is so high I just misread that. Grrrrrrr.
    :blush:
  • Florida gone to Trump, but Ohio looking good for Biden.
  • Texas up for B, but early days.
  • edited November 2020
    Can't even imagine that that many people like the blond guy. That it is even close. But we should believe it. They did it before. That it is even close is a damning statement.

    If Americans want to double down on its careening crazy train into the mad darkness, that it's God given semi-democratic right. Wish Canada wasn't tied to the insanity by a 9000 km border. Expect the border to stay closed re pandemic which makes the virus our friend right now.

  • I am quite hopeful tonight https://youtu.be/R1P1g4C-Jjg
  • NP--

    ...ummm...you do realize that American Shipmates are in the room, trying to keep ourselves together? And there's concern about some form of civil war? (By that or other names.)

    Having you drop judgement on us, ton by ton, kilometer by kilometer, does NOT help. It's cruel and it's mean. I refer you to what I said to someone, very early on this thread:
    PS And please remember that American Shipmates are apt to be anxious, emotional, cranky, worried, angry, *seemingly* paranoid (as in having reasons to be scared that seem paranoid to people who don't understand the situation)--and trying to figure out what the hell they can do if things get far worse, and how to prep for that. Plus relying on whatever they usually rely on to get through tough times. That's for the forseeable future.

    A word to the wise, for *all* our sakes
  • Trump has won Ohio.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Just a thought I was entertaining earlier today...

    What if all Trump's talk about refusing to concede wasn't really serious, or was at least also intended to serve a less sinister, back-up purpose...

    He wanted Democrats to think "If he has to resort to those tactics, it's because he knows he can't win legitimately", thus lulling enough of them into thinking they could stay home.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Just a thought I was entertaining earlier today...

    What if all Trump's talk about refusing to concede wasn't really serious, or was at least also intended to serve a less sinister, back-up purpose...

    He wanted Democrats to think "If he has to resort to those tactics, it's because he knows he can't win legitimately", thus lulling enough of them into thinking they could stay home.

    Nothing, but nothing that was said, would ever lead me to just not bother turning out to vote.

    I'm not saying this can't happen-just that it's hard to understand...
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