When knowing The Bible helps The Secular

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  • {Throws a Spam can-shaped *pillow* at mt.}

    Thx. ;)
  • BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
    And of course, there are all the everyday expressions that may not be recognized as Biblical--this site lists 85.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    {Throws a Spam can-shaped *pillow* at mt.}

    Thx. ;)

    Bloody Vikings!
  • Belisarius wrote: »
    And of course, there are all the everyday expressions that may not be recognized as Biblical--this site lists 85.

    I stopped reading when I saw "of biblical proportions" on the list.
  • BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
    Ugh--should have done more vetting.
  • Belisarius wrote: »
    Ugh--should have done more vetting.

    Don't worry about it. I'm sure it's an interesting list all the same. Probably compiled for light reading by a non-academic who wasn't too particular about the distinction between biblical expressions and expressions about the Bible.

    And my cessation of reading was partly rhetorical. I might go back to it, though with a cautious eye.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Belisarius wrote: »
    Ugh--should have done more vetting.

    Don't worry about it. I'm sure it's an interesting list all the same. Probably compiled for light reading by a non-academic who wasn't too particular about the distinction between biblical expressions and expressions about the Bible.

    And my cessation of reading was partly rhetorical. I might go back to it, though with a cautious eye.

    Interesting to see Sour grapes which I'd say has a split origin (aesop, where the sourness is a libel, Bible where the sourness is real-in the metaphor), I'm not sure which popular use favours (I'm guessing the simple one).
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    jay_emm wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Belisarius wrote: »
    Ugh--should have done more vetting.

    Don't worry about it. I'm sure it's an interesting list all the same. Probably compiled for light reading by a non-academic who wasn't too particular about the distinction between biblical expressions and expressions about the Bible.

    And my cessation of reading was partly rhetorical. I might go back to it, though with a cautious eye.

    Interesting to see Sour grapes which I'd say has a split origin (aesop, where the sourness is a libel, Bible where the sourness is real-in the metaphor), I'm not sure which popular use favours (I'm guessing the simple one).

    I actually started a Ship thread on that very phrase, called The Tragic Abuse Of Sour Grapes. What prompted me was hearing lots of people use it to mean "bitter and angry", which is not the Aesop meaning, ie. "contemptuous of a desired goal you failed to attain".

    At the time, I thought that Aesop's usage was the only one, so assumed the version I'd been hearing was just incorrect. My guess would be that people who use it to mean "bitter and angry" have somewhere along the way heard Aesop's version, but misunderstood it, because it seems to me more likely that that's the version that woulda been in wide circulation.

    Though given that it is in the Bible, I can't guarantee that they didn't hear that version, and are thus quoting it correctly.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Though given that it is in the Bible, I can't guarantee that they didn't hear that version, and are thus quoting it correctly.

    But the Biblical reference is even more inapt. In the Bible, the metaphor is for being subjected to undesirable consequences of things that you didn't do.
  • Fair point, the biblical use of sour grapes isn't what I said.

    I think the bibles quoting a proverb that in turn was extending on a earlier usage. As it seems to me it needs some context to work (it could of course be the punchline of a longer missing hebrew fable/joke instead).
    When I re-came across it, presumably not long after the other thread, I found it interesting that something about sour grapes - bitter personality was older than Aesops * **

    * although possibly referenced contempary or even later. But regardless unlikely to be related.
    ** assuming of course Aesop didn't collate, improve and rewrite earlier tales
  • and there's a bit of a blurred boundary, consider: "I didn't want a second term (Aesop), the election wasn't fair (both?), They should have voted for me (bitter)." "Sour grapes"
    Or similar cases where I'm guilty.
  • jay_emm wrote: »
    and there's a bit of a blurred boundary, consider: "I didn't want a second term (Aesop), the election wasn't fair (both?), They should have voted for me (bitter)." "Sour grapes"
    Or similar cases where I'm guilty.

    I don't think "the election wasn't fair" matches Aesop. That's a complaint about the process, not the goal: it's quite possible that the candidate would still admit to wanting the job.

    (Unless he's claiming that the alleged unfairness of the election has made him realize the whole system is corrupt, so why would he want a job being head of that system.)
  • tclune wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Though given that it is in the Bible, I can't guarantee that they didn't hear that version, and are thus quoting it correctly.

    But the Biblical reference is even more inapt. In the Bible, the metaphor is for being subjected to undesirable consequences of things that you didn't do.

    Okay. If that's the meaning of the biblical reference, then the people I've heard are using the phrase wrong.+

    I've even heard it used to mean something like "persona non grata", eg. "When I started speaking out about the corruption in our political party, all I got from everyone else in the party was sour grapes."
  • stetson wrote: »
    Belisarius wrote: »
    And of course, there are all the everyday expressions that may not be recognized as Biblical--this site lists 85.

    I stopped reading when I saw "of biblical proportions" on the list.
    This reminds me of a morning radio show host who ran a weather report that had the forecaster warning of an oncoming snow storm "of biblical proportions." "Of biblical proportions?" asked the radio host. "Where in the Bible is there a snow storm??"
  • Hedgehog wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Belisarius wrote: »
    And of course, there are all the everyday expressions that may not be recognized as Biblical--this site lists 85.

    I stopped reading when I saw "of biblical proportions" on the list.
    This reminds me of a morning radio show host who ran a weather report that had the forecaster warning of an oncoming snow storm "of biblical proportions." "Of biblical proportions?" asked the radio host. "Where in the Bible is there a snow storm??"

    Well, Revelation DOES predict hailstones.

    (Assuming that is being translated correctly, and that Revelation is just a funky bit of creative writing, I wonder what inspired the author to include hail in his repertoire of end-time calamities. Is that a common enough oddity in the mideast, or would he have had to have heard about it from travellers?)
  • BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
    Got around to looking at the list in detail. Did have quite a few entries I didn't realize were Biblical, but disappointed at the exclusion of "Shibboleth" and "Sent away like Uriah". Also, it neglected to mention that "Armageddon" is derived from the (centrally located) city of Megiddo.
  • Hail can be devastating to a ground crop such as wheat.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Hail can be devastating to a ground crop such as wheat.

    And also to lambs, especially new-born. Presumably calves as well, but we've never heard of that.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    And to any flowering tree, if it knocks the flowers off before they can fruit. (In answer to the question, we had hail every so often in Southern California, sometimes quite heavy. And that's a Mediterranean climate. The hail forms very high in the atmosphere, and drops before it can melt much--so the fact that you're in the subtropics doesn't mean a whole lot.)
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Hail can be devastating to a ground crop such as wheat.

    Yeah, but how often does it occur in the Levant?
  • stetson wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Hail can be devastating to a ground crop such as wheat.

    Yeah, but how often does it occur in the Levant?

    Probably more often than locusts.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    One of the ten plagues was hail, and Psalm 147 says God “casts down his hailstones like morsels of bread”. There are other references in Job and the Psalms and a handful in the prophets as well.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    One of the ten plagues was hail, and Psalm 147 says God “casts down his hailstones like morsels of bread”. There are other references in Job and the Psalms and a handful in the prophets as well.

    Thanks.
  • BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
    Though it's happened only twice in my life, I've encountered severe hail in the middle of the summer on Long Island.
  • We get hail most years. Only rarely golf ball sized thankfully. It really bashes things.
  • We get hail most years. Only rarely golf ball sized thankfully. It really bashes things.
    Perhaps, but hail hath no fury like a woman scorned.

  • Trump fans should have noted Matthew 7.15....‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Trump fans should have noted Matthew 7.15....‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

    I guess I missed Trump's attire. I would have thought it was more like the emperor's new clothing...
  • Pangolin GuerrePangolin Guerre Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    I had a lengthy discussion once about the lack of "buddy story" symbolism in the bible. And how things might be different if the gospels recounted, say a Jesus and Peter buddy story, or Jesus and Judas. Might have liked to see more Moses and Joshua together versus sequentially. Might have tamed their extremism. I really think Paul needed a buddy, or at least a puppy.

    Link of some discussion of the genre: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuddyPicture

    David and Jonathan. It's not just Big Guy/Little Guy. It's a very touching story.
  • In fact if anything you might say that Jonathan was the Big Guy - he was the king's son and heir apparent after all - and David was the Little Guy...
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