That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

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  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    FWIW, I think once there’s an effective vaccine, churches will fairly quickly return to how they did Communion pre-COVID. The concern now is not about viruses in general, but about a specific virus, and I think we’ll see a return to the status quo ante once there’s general confidence that that virus is under control.

    I do hope so.

  • The Bible is the living Word of God? Surely it's the written word, that points to the living Word?

    Exactly. Christ alone is the living word of God.
  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    edited July 2020
    On the question of using a chalice. it has been pointed out that covid cannot be spread on what is eaten or drunk, it must be breathed in. What goes into the mouth goes down the throat and into the stomach -- comes nowhere near the lungs.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I suspect that communion in one kind has traditionally been deemed by Presbyterians as among those things which make the baby Jesus cry (while emphatically not making any reference to his blessed mother).

    In all honesty, the same goes on the Protestant side of Anglicanism where denial of the Cup to the laity is regarded as contrary to institution of the sacrament.

  • On the question of using a chalice. it has been pointed out that covid cannot be spread on what is eaten or drunk, it must be breathed in. What goes into the mouth goes down the throat and into the stomach -- comes nowhere near the lungs.

    Why is it, do you think, that everyone is emphasizing the importance of handwashing? Do you think there could be a connection here?
  • I want to issue a warning of reading that the denial of the cup to the laity in Presbyterian circles being seen as 'something that makes baby Jesus cry'. I am pretty sure that the problem is in the understanding of the role of the celebrant. If the cup is removed in Presbyterian Churches and similar it must be removed in its entirety (i.e. the celebrant may not partake of it either). This making clear the celebrant's position, as a member of the laity.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Dear me. With due respect to the churches concerned, of whatever denomination, it does all seem a bit...umm...fussy.

    TBH, the current practice in the C of E (bread and wine both consecrated, bread distributed to the Faithful, but wine consumed only by the priest, on behalf of all present) seems a lot less work!

    YMMV, of course.
    :wink:

    I suspect that communion in one kind has traditionally been deemed by Presbyterians as among those things which make the baby Jesus cry (while emphatically not making any reference to his blessed mother).

    Talking of things that make the baby Jesus cry, there are traditionalist RCs who will not go to communion as it has to be in the hand and not on the tongue at the moment. Apparently this is a blasphemous sacrilege which causes souls to linger for centuries longer in purgatory.
  • I know one or two devout A-C people who habitually receive the Host on the tongue - but they have sensibly accommodated themselves to the present norm of receiving in the hand.

    I will refrain from telling them about the extra centuries in Purgatory that this Infamous Practice entails...

    BTW, aren't the Fearful Faithful in danger of Hellfire for not receiving the Sacrament, when It is available?
  • I don't think that the obligation to attend Mass or receive Communion has yet been restored, as not everyone can do so yet.
  • Fair enough!
    :wink:
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Does any of you know whether the hymn Sancti, venite, Christi Corpus sumite has a surviving ancient chant?

    It is commonly sung to various modern tunes in one of the two translations, Draw nigh and take the Body of the Lord and Come, Christ's beloved, feed on his Body true.

    The text survives in the Bangor Antiphonary but what of the melody?

    Theres a discussion here
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/9173/sancti-venite-christi-corpus-sumite/p1
    It links to this sound snippet, but with no information about its provenance That group love to put chants into triple time - it works brilliantly with Veni sancte Spiritus.)
    https://amazon.com/Sancti-venite-Christi-corpus-Thursday/dp/B0013AUH1I

    Its a very unusual metre for a Latin hymn.

    Thank you, again, @Alan29 .

    My bishop has done some searching for me and found this very same melody in an ancient antiphonary from Milan. It seems to be the ancient Celtic melody that was transmitted to Bobbio along with the text.

    I've produced a translation building on the work done by Adrian Fortecue, as his is the only English text I have been able to find that matches the original metre.

    Now we have text and the ancient melody, we're working on a harmonised version.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Does any of you know whether the hymn Sancti, venite, Christi Corpus sumite has a surviving ancient chant?

    It is commonly sung to various modern tunes in one of the two translations, Draw nigh and take the Body of the Lord and Come, Christ's beloved, feed on his Body true.

    The text survives in the Bangor Antiphonary but what of the melody?

    Theres a discussion here
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/9173/sancti-venite-christi-corpus-sumite/p1
    It links to this sound snippet, but with no information about its provenance That group love to put chants into triple time - it works brilliantly with Veni sancte Spiritus.)
    https://amazon.com/Sancti-venite-Christi-corpus-Thursday/dp/B0013AUH1I

    Its a very unusual metre for a Latin hymn.

    Thank you, again, @Alan29 .

    My bishop has done some searching for me and found this very same melody in an ancient antiphonary from Milan. It seems to be the ancient Celtic melody that was transmitted to Bobbio along with the text.

    I've produced a translation building on the work done by Adrian Fortecue, as his is the only English text I have been able to find that matches the original metre.

    Now we have text and the ancient melody, we're working on a harmonised version.

    If you are going for authenticity ..... why harmonise?
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    If you are going for authenticity ..... why harmonise?

    I suppose that depends on what you mean by authentic.

    The idea is to bring the hymn into use within our existing liturgical tradition, in which many of the ancient psalm tones, hymn melodies, and other chants are sung in harmonised form (after the pattern established by Maxim Kovalevsky). It is hoped that, through prayer and use within our worship, the Sancti. Venite will become an authentic part of our liturgical tradition.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    If you are going for authenticity ..... why harmonise?

    I suppose that depends on what you mean by authentic.

    The idea is to bring the hymn into use within our existing liturgical tradition, in which many of the ancient psalm tones, hymn melodies, and other chants are sung in harmonised form (after the pattern established by Maxim Kovalevsky). It is hoped that, through prayer and use within our worship, the Sancti. Venite will become an authentic part of our liturgical tradition.

    Got it.
  • Closet DruidCloset Druid Shipmate Posts: 35
    Seeing some ordination pictures from (Holy) Chichester, I noticed that some deacons are wearing their stoles over the left shoulder, whilst others are wearing the stole over the right shoulder. Is there any significance in this, i,e, suggesting a difference between permanent deacons and transitional deacons?
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Seeing some ordination pictures from (Holy) Chichester, I noticed that some deacons are wearing their stoles over the left shoulder, whilst others are wearing the stole over the right shoulder. Is there any significance in this, i,e, suggesting a difference between permanent deacons and transitional deacons?

    My guess is that all of the deacons were probably wearing the stole correctly, over the left shoulder, but that someone decided to invert some of the photographs.

    I've noticed that webmasters and people who manage social media for churches often do this for reasons that are beyond me and with no regard to the resultant strangeness.
  • I stand corrected. I'm sorry.

    I've found the album in question on their Facebook page and some of the deacons are indeed wearing the stole on the wrong shoulder. The photos have not been inverted as the bishop in the very same photographs is the right way round.

    How peculiar!
  • Well the diocese of Chichester is something of a Looking Glass world. Some people might even consider it a Wonderland.
  • Perhaps some of the deacons are right-handed, and the others left-handed?
  • Perhaps some of the deacons are right-handed, and the others left-handed?

    Sinister deacons?! Is that allowed?
  • O I can think of one or two who are...

    :innocent:
  • Closet DruidCloset Druid Shipmate Posts: 35
    angloid wrote: »
    Well the diocese of Chichester is something of a Looking Glass world. Some people might even consider it a Wonderland.

    Mrs CD and I served in the Chichester Diocese (house for duty) for about five years and we were told right from the beginning that Chichester did things differently from everyone else.
    Anyway, thanks for the comments
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    O I can think of one or two who are...

    :innocent:

    But on the whole I suspect they transition to "higher" orders
  • Yes, especially in Dioceses where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...
  • ... be fair, in Chichester the left hand doesn't know there is a right hand.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    ah, such closely adhering followers of Jesus
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    I must confess to being very intrigued by how the new suffragan bishops are going down with the eastern parts of the diocese.
  • Well, +Lewes is an Anglo-Carflick, so presumably he's kosher, whereas +Horsham is not only a *Wooman* herself, but was consecrated by a *Wooman* (+London)!!

    Seriously, though, if she's involved with any licensings or whatever, on her patch, the Holy Bits will probably be done by +Richborough, the Flying Bishop (or PEV). A typically Anglican fudge compromise, but it seems to work.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Anglo-Carflicks would *not* go down well with much of East Sussex - +Lewes may be technically kosher in terms of gender but East Sussex is Gafcon/Reform/Christian Concern land, and I believe some parishes were already under +Maidstone. Plenty of people at the Lewes bonfire parades shout 'no popery' without irony.

    The non-evangelical parishes in East Sussex do tend to be Trad Cath (some of them doing excellent community work, real slum parish stuff) though so I'm intrigued to see it all pan out.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Pomona wrote: »
    Anglo-Carflicks would *not* go down well with much of East Sussex - +Lewes may be technically kosher in terms of gender but East Sussex is Gafcon/Reform/Christian Concern land, and I believe some parishes were already under +Maidstone. Plenty of people at the Lewes bonfire parades shout 'no popery' without irony.

    The non-evangelical parishes in East Sussex do tend to be Trad Cath (some of them doing excellent community work, real slum parish stuff) though so I'm intrigued to see it all pan out.

    O - I wasn't aware that East Sussex was quite so...er...well... :grimace:

    I stand corrected!
    :wink:

    Mind you, parts of West Kent (Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells/Sevenoaks) are of like nature.

  • I'm looking for a decent translation of Christe, Redemptor Omnium in a form of English contemporary with our times.

    Does this hymn exist in the modern RC office?

    Also, does anyone recognise this tune? I'm sure I've usually heard it sung to the The God Whom Earth, and Sea, and Sky but it doesn't appear to be married to this hymn in any of my hymnals.

    If it exists anywhere in The English Hymnal or The New English Hymnal, is anyone able to direct me to it? I'm particularly keen on these volumes as they tend to use the Sarum variations of hymn tunes where such exist, and our UK mission has my bishop's blessing to use these as local custom.
  • Christe Redemptor Omnium: paraphrase, rather than strict translation, can be found in the old English Hymnal as Come thou Redeemer of the earth, the Office Hymn for Christmas Eve.

    Don't recognise the tune you link to: it isn't in either the EH or NEH, which give a choice of a more complex chant or Puer nobis nascitur.

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    This is the hymn as it appears in the current translation of the RC Breviary
    Hymn

    O Christ, the Father’s only Son,
    Whose death for all redemption won,
    Before the worlds, of God Most High,
    Begotten all ineffably.

    The Father’s Light and Splendour thou,
    Their endless Hope to thee that bow;
    Accept the prayers and praise today
    That through the world thy servants pay.

    Salvation’s Author, call to mind
    Thou took’st the form of humankind,
    When of the Virgin undefiled
    Thou in man’s flesh becam’st a Child.

    Thus testifies the present day
    Through every year in long array,
    That thou, salvation’s source alone,
    Proceedest from the Father’s throne.

    All honour, laud, and glory be,
    O Jesu, Virgin-born, to thee;
    All glory, as is ever meet,
    To Father and to Paraclete.


    Not what I would call contemporary!

    There are tunes here - some very mangled versions of chant.
    https://hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/NonEnglish/christe_redemptor_omnium.htm
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    For those of a liturgical turn of mind .... can I point you in the direction of Universalis.
    For a paltry tenner you get the entire Roman Lectionary, Missal and Breviary. You can install it on more than one device and can copy and paste sections into other programs or construct booklets.
    Its my constant companion.
  • Full text with Sarum melody here (starting on page 9): https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstream/11375/16149/5/Sarum Hymnal Part 1.pdf
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    For those of a liturgical turn of mind .... can I point you in the direction of Universalis.
    I am very much a fan also. It has helped me return to some form of prayer through the Offices.
  • I'm sorry for my lack of response. The past few days have presented a few challenges that have taken up much of my time and energy.

    Thank you, all, for your efforts and suggestions. I very much appreciate it.

    @TheOrganist Thank you for the EH reference. This and the text kindly provided by @Alan29 are both adaptable to contemporary English. I might work on this.

    The Mirfield text is already usable but the rhyming pattern is ABAB rather than the usual Ambrosian AABB and seems odd when sung. That having been said, the Latin seems not to rhyme at all, so I wonder whether it even matters in this particular instance. I'll think a little more about it.

    The Sarum Hymnal is a blessed resource for the Sarum version of tunes. Are there other parts available online?

    Thank you so much.
  • Extensive material for the Sarum Rite is to be found at: https://hmcwordpress.humanities.mcmaster.ca/renwick/

    PDFs of various parts are to be found under "Office", "Mass" and "Other Documents". The two parts of "The Sarum Hymnal" are under the last of these headings.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Re: Remembrance Sunday.
    Has anyone heard mention of Conscientious Objectors?

    Those in WWI who were tied to posts at the front, those who in WWII who were sent to remote prison camps or those who set up alternative services like ambulance units, or later on in countries where there was Compulsory Military Service - either for everyone or for those who were selected by some lottery system.

    There is a verse in Shirley Erena Murray's "Honour the Brave" hymn for ANZAC Day:
    https://progressivechristianityaotearoa.com/2014/11/29/hymn-for-anzac-day-shirley-murray/
    which I know is sung in Aotearoa~New Zealand and Australia (on the 25th of April) but even then this verse is omitted sometimes

    I'm just asking if it's happening not wanting to talk about whether or not it should


  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Just occasionally - I think at Waiapu Cathedral there was mention
  • There are some denominations which are quite proud of their Conscientious Objectors, so they may well include mention of them in their worship.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Britains most decorated enlisted soldier in WW1 was a Conscientious Objector. I forget where I got that information from originally. It just goes to show you cannot make assumptions.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Thank you for that @Jengie Jon - humbling to read of such heroism.
  • Alright, I considered making this a separate thread and then decided that it probably did not have legs for that. It is a case of my boring life*. I started doing some liturgical calendar mathematics this morning after noting Luke's very careful timing of the birth narrative. We all know that liturgical pregnancies take exactly 9 calendrical months which is why the Annunciation is on the 25 March. Which makes Elizabeth's pregnancy at six months because that is what the Angel Gabriel says. So John the Baptist's conception around 25th September which fits quite timely with Rosh Hashanah being the date Zechariah was in burning incense. Rosh Hashanah marks the Jewish New Year and the date God is believed to have created Eden/the world. Now I just noticed this. My knowledge of Jewish festivals is limited but I do know that they have changed over the centuries and that they have different symbolisms at different times so I am not reading too much into it but do find it a curiosity.


    *From a George Macleod aphorism "If you think that is a coincidence then you must have a very boring life"
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    It all fits in, no?

    And then there's the Conception of Our Lady (whether Immaculate or otherwise I prefer not to discuss) on 8th December, followed by Her birth on 8th September...though none of that's actually in the Bible IIRC...

    I expect there are lots of other examples to find...a handy little project for filling in the long hours of lockdown 3 (or however many we've reached so far).

  • Jengie Jon wrote: »
    ...the Annunciation is on the 25 March.

    In some traditions.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    ...the Annunciation is on the 25 March.

    In some traditions.
    @Cyprian I think you'll have to explain. Where isn't it and when is it there in stead?

    If somewhere it's in early April, that will still be the 25th March but because those putting it there are Old Calendrists. It would be for the same reason as why the UK tax year runs from the 6th April.

  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    Enoch wrote: »
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    ...the Annunciation is on the 25 March.

    In some traditions.
    @Cyprian I think you'll have to explain. Where isn't it and when is it there in stead?

    If somewhere it's in early April, that will still be the 25th March but because those putting it there are Old Calendrists. It would be for the same reason as why the UK tax year runs from the 6th April.

    Of course, @Enoch , I'll be happy to oblige.

    There are actually a few places where the Annunciation isn't celebrated on 25th March.

    The most widespread example that I know of is in the Armenian Rite, where the 25th December date was never adopted for Christmas and has no particular liturgical significance, even today. Armenian Christians (Orthodox and Catholic alike) keep the original date of the 6th of January and Annunciation is 7th April. This isn't to do with a Julian/Gregorian shift but is the actual calendar date. (For instance, in places where the Armenian churches keep the Julian calendar, Christmas is 19th January and Annunciation is 20th April by the Gregorian calendar.)

    The symbolism is that, as Adam was created on the 6th day of Creation, so we celebrate the coming of the New Adam into the world on the 6th day of the new year. This was also the Byzantine date for Christmas before the 25th December date was adopted in the 4th century.

    The 25th of March date for Annunciation was gradually adopted over the centuries and eventually imposed by the Council of Trullo in response to some of the Christological heresies that were around at the time. The idea was that to place the Annunciation nine months before Christmas would emphasise the biological reality of the Incarnation - that Christ truly became human and went through a normal human gestation period, and that this was not some sort of illusion (Docetism) or something else.

    Before that, there wasn't really any strong emphasis on the biological aspect as far as the date went, and the Annunciation was celebrated in various places somewhere towards the end of Advent*, as a natural transition from the season of waiting and expectation to the full celebration of the Incarnation at Christmas.

    Today, in the Ambrosian Rite the 6th Sunday of Advent is celebrated as the Annunciation, and the same is true in the restored Gallican tradition followed by some Western Orthodox.

    I read somewhere recently that one of the Syriac rites also celebrates it in the approach to Christmas but I haven't looked into that in any depth.

    *(Incidentally, this is why the Annunciation Gospel is still appointed for the Ember Wednesday before Christmas in the Roman Rite, and probably why some traditions still have the Annunciation readings late in Advent.)
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    It is undoubtedly the case that 6th January was the earliest festival in commemoration of the appearing of Christ as a major figure in salvation history and that festival commemorated the Baptism of Christ. My understanding is that the date chosen had something to do with water festivals in the Nile.
    Other events were added in particular the recognition of Christ by the visit of the Magi.
    While in the East the major event commemorated on 6th January is the Baptism of Christ ,the West concentrates then on the visit of the Magi.
    Indeed it was the West which later added a special festival in honour of the birth of Christ and the visits of the angels and the shepherds.
    Leaving aside in one way the Julian and Gregorian calendar about dates ,we know that the pre Christian Romans started the year in March and Christians started the year on 25th of that month. It is only since the reforms of pope Gregory XIII in the 1580s that the New Year started om 1st January and the 6th January would be the sixth day of the New Year.
    Perhaps,however,some other Mediterranean societies started the New Year in January ?
  • Forthview wrote: »
    It is undoubtedly the case that 6th January was the earliest festival in commemoration of the appearing of Christ as a major figure in salvation history and that festival commemorated the Baptism of Christ. My understanding is that the date chosen had something to do with water festivals in the Nile.
    Other events were added in particular the recognition of Christ by the visit of the Magi.
    While in the East the major event commemorated on 6th January is the Baptism of Christ ,the West concentrates then on the visit of the Magi.
    Indeed it was the West which later added a special festival in honour of the birth of Christ and the visits of the angels and the shepherds.
    Leaving aside in one way the Julian and Gregorian calendar about dates ,we know that the pre Christian Romans started the year in March and Christians started the year on 25th of that month. It is only since the reforms of pope Gregory XIII in the 1580s that the New Year started om 1st January and the 6th January would be the sixth day of the New Year.
    Perhaps,however,some other Mediterranean societies started the New Year in January ?

    It appears (based on a wikipedia dive following a vaguely recalled memory of January being named for Janus, god of beginnings and endings) that starting the year in January is pre-Christian Roman, at least in some respects dating from around 450BCE.
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