In the summer of 2016 while still at her address, D plugged in and switched on an appliance her son had identified as faulty and warned her not to use. A heater, I think. The circuit fused. She now says she was going to call in the electrician round the corner, but she didn't.
So I offered, and initiated this process. (After they remembered where the fuse box was.)
How to change fuse wire.
Step 1 Ensure all appliances unplugged and nothing is connected.
Step 2 Switch off fuse box
Step 3 Remove cover of fuses
Step 4 Identify blown fuse
Step 5 Remove fuse holder
Step 6 Remove remains of wire
Step 7 Cut length of wire of correct ampage
Step 8 Screw ends of wire into holder
Step 9 Replace holder
Step 10 Replace fuse cover
Step 11 Switch on fuse box
Step 12 Plug in and switch on last used appliance to test circuit. IF no problem, continue to test other appliances until faulty one blows circuit again. THEN repeat from Step 1 to Step 11.
Except that everything blew at Step 11, when there was nothing attached to the circuit to draw power. Ergo, nothing to do with my fuse fixing. Which is why the electrician wouldn't touch it without doing rewiring.
D rang the power supply company, but when she found she would have to pay for repair, she put the phone down. I didn't have an opportunity to offer a contribution.
In the same way she has not had a plumber in so she can flush the toilet without a bucket (before the electricity failure), and the kitchen sink tap turns off. She has not had hot water for some time.
In February 2017, she pulled her gas cooker to pieces. She was, at the time, very confused. There was no other means of heating. Since there had been other incidents with the cooker, her son would not enable her to replace it. We tried to get some sort of emergency help. There wasn't any. (I have only recently been able to get access to the gas meter to turn off the supply.)
I am not responsible for her not being able to go home. (Though she keeps harping on about the fuse.)
None of this goes back as far as 2013 - and I've checked in the old Ship. Nor have I prevented the involvement of social services. That is entirely down to D. They won't deal with me, anyway, as I am not a relative.
Thank you. Tubbs and Amanda. The hospital told D's son that they sometimes had to discharge patients back to totally unsuitable places if that was the wish of the patient, despite the places not being in a fit state.
It is possible, and I hope I'm wrong, to construe a narrative in which D has deliberately planned what has happened. Certain things she said and did on visiting on Saturdays in January 2017 suggest an intention to move in. She has the intelligence, the history of manipulativeness, and, of course, the capacity to do so. But I do hope I'm wrong. It's too nasty.
She is currently manoeuvring to get me to stop using my usual supermarket. Refusing to drink the whole milk she needs from them as it goes off. When left on the table in the sun. I couldn't even worm round it by getting the more expensive organic from the business of Prince Charles - and she loves the royals. I've told her I shop where I shop. She retreated. It will be interesting to see if she goes on on this subject.
I'm not having a go at you Penny, but her son was living in the same house as her whilst all this was going on. So it wasn't just that she couldn't flush the toilet without a bucket of water, but he couldn't either? She had no hot water, and neither had he? She was living amongst so much hoarded junk that her house was barely habitable, and he was living in this, too? When all the electrics went, she decided for both of them that henceforth they would have no electricity. And he accepted that his mother had decided that this was how he should live? That he had no agency in his own life? This is the bit that puzzles me.
FWIW, if there was a plumbing or electrical problem in my home, I can't imagine an electrician or plumber telling my adult children that unless their names are on the title deeds, they cannot organise a repair within the family home. And yet apparently this is the situation the son is in. He cannot get the flush repaired in the toilet of his family home because of the title deeds.
My main concern for you, Penny, is that when this nonogenarian dies her son will fall apart and you will find yourself in, were it possible, an even worse situation caring for him.
If she's truly as competent as she has been judged to be, then responsibility is squarely on her shoulders either to accept the help that is being offered, or continue to live without it. Either way, it's her decision. Penny S bears no responsibility and should bear no feelings of guilt if things turn out the way she wouldn't want them to.
Most of us know that theory, but aren't so great at putting it into practice. Some friends in similar situations have tried to hold it together in a similar way to Penny. Others have decided that if their aged relative is really insistent that they'll be fine at home, then it's best to let them get on with it. And hope that the accident that makes them realise they're not isn't too serious. (Which I appreciate sounds appalling when it's typed out like that!)
I am not responsible for her not being able to go home.
Other than the fact that your willingness to let her stay with you is enabling her to ignore the problems with her house, and save a fair amount of cash while she's at it.
Nor have I prevented the involvement of social services.
Other than the fact that your willingness to let her stay with you means they've got no reason to get involved. As far as they're concerned she's being well looked after.
You need to accept that the only one who will ever change this situation is you. It's not in anybody else's interests to do so.
It is possible, and I hope I'm wrong, to construe a narrative in which D has deliberately planned what has happened. Certain things she said and did on visiting on Saturdays in January 2017 suggest an intention to move in. She has the intelligence, the history of manipulativeness, and, of course, the capacity to do so. But I do hope I'm wrong. It's too nasty.
Ignoring the facts because they would lead to too nasty a conclusion? Yeah, I'm sure that's sound logic.
Fucks sake, woman - she's played you like Mozart played the piano. Tweak a heartstring here, prod a guilty feeling there, play up to your "Good Samaritan" narrative when necessary and before you know it she's got you doing everything the way she wants as if it's her house and you're just the hired help. Except she's not paying for any of it.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Assuming she lets you brew it, of course...
She is currently manoeuvring to get me to stop using my usual supermarket. Refusing to drink the whole milk she needs from them as it goes off. When left on the table in the sun. I couldn't even worm round it by getting the more expensive organic from the business of Prince Charles - and she loves the royals. I've told her I shop where I shop. She retreated. It will be interesting to see if she goes on on this subject.
I've got a fiver that says you'll be shopping at her preferred place before summer is out.
Does that even matter? She may have planned things deliberately, played events to her own advantage or gone with the flow. You can speculate about that all you want, but you’ll never know for certain and it won’t solve your problem.
The unwanted house guest who refuses to treat you or your home with respect will still be there.
As far as she’s concerned, this situation may not be ideal, but she’s got free accommodation, an (un)willing help and a punch-bag.
It’s up to you whether you continue to play her games, start standing up for yourself or just tell her to go. But no one else is going to do it for you.
If she's truly as competent as she has been judged to be, then responsibility is squarely on her shoulders either to accept the help that is being offered, or continue to live without it. Either way, it's her decision. Penny S bears no responsibility and should bear no feelings of guilt if things turn out the way she wouldn't want them to.
Exactly. This principle is illustrated in http://www.thecruxmovie.com/pdf/TheBridgeShortStory.pdf in one of my favourites of Friedman's Fables, "The Bridge", about a man holding another man by a rope from a bridge. Great story about boundaries and moral decision-making.
I don't think D would consent to the assessment. As for me as carer, she was robust in declaring to the doctor that I didn't need respite. For robust read vituperative.
Looking at that list, she can manage 2 & 3, could but won't manage 4 unless expecting a visit from someone to impress, or to watch a royal wedding. She has clean clothes but is slovenly about changing into them. 1, 5 & 6 no. Possibly 7, but most people are dead. Thinks she can manage 8 and 9. Wants to do 10, but he doesn't want her to, and she couldn't, anyway. But she would have to be self funding for care, and she won't assent to it.
I don't want to be a recognised and assessed carer. Or any sort of carer. It would benefit me if it were recognised by the social services that there is a hydra-headed safeguarding issue that could only be resolved by getting her away from me. It's recognised by the doctor, the dietician and the nurses (or a sufficient tranche of them). But there is no action.
She has capacity. She gets to choose. It's mad.
I am composing a missive to the social services department.
I am responding to this here, just because:
Wants to do 10, but he doesn't want her to, and she couldn't,
Seriously, a man of approximately 70 is not, repeat not, a dependent child legally. Dependent children are under 16 - they may be aged 16-18 if in full time education and not married. The only way he could be dependent legally is if he is disabled and unable to care for himself. The fact that he's is lacking any backbone and cannot stand up for himself or organise anything around Mommy Dearest means he needs to find some resolve, not that he's dependent. But no, he's so fucking dependent he's now relying on another elderly woman to sort everything out for him. You do realise that when Mommy Dearest dies, he'll either collapse entirely or run off with a younger woman or man.
I don't want to be a recognised and assessed carer . Or any sort of carer.
So why the ever living fuck are we having stream of consciousness posts about how difficult it is caring for D? You won't acknowledge you are a carer, you won't ask for help from the right person - the GP is not going to be able to access carer's support, just refer it on to the relevant authority, if they have the time and energy on top of general practice overload. Social Care carry out assessments. If D does not consent, you can still have an assessment as a carer to get Social Care in to make assessments. It is your house, she is a guest. So rather than whinging on and on here about how difficult it all is start doing something about it. You have been told this repeatedly, but, to reiterate, the only person who can resolve this is you.
D cannot choose to live in your house if you do not consent to her living there. I would put a large bet on the supposition that you didn't actually put any agreements into writing? There is nothing legally agreed? That you didn't agree what should happen if her care became beyond you? Did no planning or forethought whatsoever, just took her in as she was going to die soon.
Get over yourself. Stop mooning after this waste of space of a man who is using you to deal with Mommy Dearest, and serve notice on the pair of them. If you serve notice then they have to deal with the people who should be dealing with this mess - social care and the care services - and have the resources and skills to do so. Stop making the whole thing worse by making yourself a slave to this woman and get yourself out of this situation before you kill yourself and Mommy Dearest has another house to wreck.
She has agency, let her use that agency and live in her own house if that's what she wants. Social care will make it safe enough - not perfect, but safe enough.
And actually follow the advice you have been given for once. Because if you'd followed the advice you wouldn't have taken the woman in the first time, and certainly not the second, and would not be in this situation.
Well said CK, I agree. ‘Get over yourself’ hits the nail on the head. Penny S has a need to be needed. It’s not being filled in a very satisfactory way, but it’s being filled. So she won’t do what she needs to for everyone’s sake.
But I would give up if I were you CK.
Penny S isn’t going to listen however the advice is put. She wants to care for this person - she just doesn’t want it to be official. She wants to join in the ‘Ageing parents’ thread as a carer. She wants to be seen as a Good Christian doing her bit. Of course she’d also like D to be grateful, understanding and compliant- but she isn’t, she’s a pain in the arse.
I would have had her removed long ago. I cared for my Mum when she was old, along with the rest of my family because I loved her. But, even for us, it got too much in the end and we had to admit defeat.
Would Penny S even visit D if she left? I doubt it, no love there that I can see.
I’ve said on the original thread at least twice that if Penny tells the local authority that she cannot cope and is giving D notice to quit, the local authority will then have to find safe accommodation for D and to provide sufficient care for her to be fed, clothed and washed. But the local authority will not remove D from a house where she wishes to stay, is being allowed by the owner to remain indefinitely, and is receiving 24 hour care.
I spend a surprising amount of time at work advising people that they are being bad Samaritans and that their actions are preventing social services from taking appropriate action to give people the care they need. I’m not saying anything to Penny that I wouldn’t say in person.
Iv'e had conversations with social services - I have not stopped them doing anything. They have not suggested their doing anything for me to stop. They are impotent. Useless. She doesn't want to stay here but will not accept social services doing anything. Legally, by the way, she has the right to prevent her son from carrying out any work she does not want done. He has researched this.
As for evicting her - I have seen how she reacts to challenging situations. I would need professional backup to get her removed immediately (I can do it with no notice, legally) . The interval between notice being given and her leaving would be intolerable. It is a frightening prospect.
Aravis' description of what should happen is not quite what my local people were going along with. The local people will do zilch if I do what she says. I will have to get her back to her borough for anything to be done. And they suggested telling her local people AFTER she has left me. It's not practicable. I send a fiercely protesting woman with mental health issues in a taxi? What about safeguarding the driver?
I've brought this over from elsewhere, having read Piglet's comment.
I took her back on the understanding it was a few weeks while she had her house dealt with. She now denies that there was such an understanding. She has nowhere to go. And the process of getting her out - have you any idea how that could be done?
FWIW: I've never gotten the impression that Penny is "mooning after this waste of space of a man". AIUI, D's son is a friend of Penny's.
From the Aging Parents thread 17 Feb 2017 "I wrote off my friend as marriage material because I knew that end of life care would fall to me, and I knew what D was like back then."
Somehow Penny has ended up in a situation she was so keen to avoid that she turned down marriage to D's son. And yet, here they both are, mother and son, living in Penny S's house.
I took her back on the understanding it was a few weeks while she had her house dealt with. She now denies that there was such an understanding. She has nowhere to go. And the process of getting her out - have you any idea how that could be done?
So you did this in writing, with solicitors drawing up the agreement? So that there was evidence of the agreement and something to fall back on? No, of course, you didn't. You knew how difficult this woman was, you've been telling us all for four fucking years - not counting the coy hints on previous threads, and you did nothing to protect yourself?
Aravis' description of what should happen is not quite what my local people were going along with. The local people will do zilch if I do what she says. I will have to get her back to her borough for anything to be done. And they suggested telling her local people AFTER she has left me. It's not practicable. I send a fiercely protesting woman with mental health issues in a taxi? What about safeguarding the driver?
Glad we've cleared up that you've removed her from her local borough so made it harder for social care from her district council to support her. That's taken you a while to face up to.
She's been living with you for over a year. She is now resident at your address, your continual denials and refusals to accept this or not, so she's not going to be looked after in the borough you have uprooted her from, so social care in that area will suggest she is now going to be the responsibility of the district council where she is now housed. That's another of those little complicated wrinkles that was pointed out to you at the time on another hell thread, one of the two you were splurging all over at the time, that you didn't have the wit or comprehension to take in. So you have made the situation more complicated and provided deniability to two social services departments. Well done. Have a cigar. That's what happens when you don't take advice.
Now do you start getting glimmers as to why this thread, you know, the one called Bad Samaritans, is the one I chose to tackle this latest whinge-fest?
"As for evicting her - I have seen how she reacts to challenging situations. I would need professional backup to get her removed immediately (I can do it with no notice, legally) "
Wow, you can evict her without notice? You have it much easier than you would in California where you have to give thirty days notice. Put away all your fragile things and put the cops on speed dial for the storm that will follow and be free! Free! Free!
Penny, although this is Hell, I'm not trying to be Hellish. CK is absolutely spot-on When D dies, her son will collapse. If you think you have problems with D now, your problems will be much greater if, after she dies, if you still have D's son living with you.
You have described a man of almost 70 who is highly qualified, with a PhD, but whose mother has decided for him how he is going to spend his salary. Despite having a job, he has no money because his mother has controlled his spending and not allowed him to have savings. Presumably she has meantime been hoarding her own income. Does he have any guarantee that he is the beneficiary of his mother's will?
He does not drive or, at least, does not have a car, and has been dependent on you to drive him for some time. He is currently dependent on you for the roof over his head. When CK posted the list regarding care requirements, you genuinely thought that he fell within the definition of a "dependent child."
You have told us of his terror and dread of her death, although most people whose parents are in their early / mid 90s, have come to terms with the idea that their parent cannot live for ever. Not so, D's son, apparently.
If you are envisaging a future in which, after D's death, her son inherits the large house and a wodge of money, and then hires a skip into which he merrily chucks all D's hoarded possessions, does up the house and you live happily ever after, I think you should think again.
I am genuinely concerned for your future, Penny. I think you will go straight from being D's carer to being D's son's carer.
She is not a tenant, but at best a licensee. Licences are generally terminable at will. Tenants need a notice of termination and a lot of other formalities which will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction with different legislation.
To be honest I know she's incapable of dealing with Mommy Dearest. I'm not sure whether she's in thrall to the son or the mother, but she's not going to resolve this issue before death, although it's not certain which will come first: Penny S or Mommy Dearest, or possibly that of the son. Now there's a question, is he spineless or just more subtly manipulative?
I am pretty sure North East Quine is on the money, down to the uncertainty of this castle in the air: there was coy mention of a cousin who was living in expectation of inheriting the house of a "friend" who was relying on inheriting it as his pension. (When L'Organist was sorting out an aunt and her nephew - can't be bothered to go and find it now.)
No, I know she won't resolve this. But she tends to stop giving us blow by blow accounts across every thread she can find (Today I Call to Hell, Difficult Relatives, Aging Parents, et al) for a while if under attack. And I know, pot calling kettle black, you've all had far too much information about acid attacks, but I promise I will not be going on about this in four years time.
I agree, I think all complaining posts by Penny on this subject should be funnelled here or it just becomes ridiculous.
And no CK, you are not a pot - or a crack pot You actively seek and find solutions, a totally different thing. We all post about our experiences - I very much hope I will be boring you about puppies in four years time!
A house is never a pension. We have a bungalow which we rent out. This year five months rent has been taken up on a new boiler and oven and a problem with the fencing in the garden. We will make a little on it this year - but certainly not a living!
Boogie - I am not really a "doggy person" (I'm a mad cat lady ) but I enjoy hearing about your puppies and your own dogs. You've raised my awareness so that I now I donate to the training of Guide dog pups here most times I go to the supermarket. Not much at a time, but I go often because I can't carry much heavy stuff.
Boogie - I am not really a "doggy person" (I'm a mad cat lady ) but I enjoy hearing about your puppies and your own dogs. You've raised my awareness so that I now I donate to the training of Guide dog pups here most times I go to the supermarket. Not much at a time, but I go often because I can't carry much heavy stuff.
I understand most councils have tenancy relations officers for the purposes of sorting this sort of shit out. @Penny S could talk to hers, they'll know a deal more than we do about her actual legal position.
I've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm sure. But I get the distinct impression she's having a whale of a time and needs her 'difficult relative' a hell of a lot more than the other way round. Nothing wrong with that. It's obviously a perfect partnership.
I've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm sure. But I get the distinct impression she's having a whale of a time and needs her 'difficult relative' a hell of a lot more than the other way round. Nothing wrong with that. It's obviously a perfect partnership.
Yep. Each seems to be enabling the other’s behaviour. At the same time PennyS can pat herself on the back for what a Good Little Christian she’s being.
I know a couple of people who love to work themselves into the ground voluntarily, then also enjoy moaning about it.
I don't think D would consent to the assessment. As for me as carer, she was robust in declaring to the doctor that I didn't need respite. For robust read vituperative.
Looking at that list, she can manage 2 & 3, could but won't manage 4 unless expecting a visit from someone to impress, or to watch a royal wedding. She has clean clothes but is slovenly about changing into them. 1, 5 & 6 no. Possibly 7, but most people are dead. Thinks she can manage 8 and 9. Wants to do 10, but he doesn't want her to, and she couldn't, anyway. But she would have to be self funding for care, and she won't assent to it.
I don't want to be a recognised and assessed carer. Or any sort of carer. It would benefit me if it were recognised by the social services that there is a hydra-headed safeguarding issue that could only be resolved by getting her away from me. It's recognised by the doctor, the dietician and the nurses (or a sufficient tranche of them). But there is no action.
She has capacity. She gets to choose. It's mad.
I am composing a missive to the social services department.
I am responding to this here, just because:
Wants to do 10, but he doesn't want her to, and she couldn't,
Seriously, a man of approximately 70 is not, repeat not, a dependent child legally. Dependent children are under 16 - they may be aged 16-18 if in full time education and not married. The only way he could be dependent legally is if he is disabled and unable to care for himself. The fact that he's is lacking any backbone and cannot stand up for himself or organise anything around Mommy Dearest means he needs to find some resolve, not that he's dependent. But no, he's so fucking dependent he's now relying on another elderly woman to sort everything out for him. You do realise that when Mommy Dearest dies, he'll either collapse entirely or run off with a younger woman or man.
I don't want to be a recognised and assessed carer . Or any sort of carer.
So why the ever living fuck are we having stream of consciousness posts about how difficult it is caring for D? You won't acknowledge you are a carer, you won't ask for help from the right person - the GP is not going to be able to access carer's support, just refer it on to the relevant authority, if they have the time and energy on top of general practice overload. Social Care carry out assessments. If D does not consent, you can still have an assessment as a carer to get Social Care in to make assessments. It is your house, she is a guest. So rather than whinging on and on here about how difficult it all is start doing something about it. You have been told this repeatedly, but, to reiterate, the only person who can resolve this is you.
D cannot choose to live in your house if you do not consent to her living there. I would put a large bet on the supposition that you didn't actually put any agreements into writing? There is nothing legally agreed? That you didn't agree what should happen if her care became beyond you? Did no planning or forethought whatsoever, just took her in as she was going to die soon.
Get over yourself. Stop mooning after this waste of space of a man who is using you to deal with Mommy Dearest, and serve notice on the pair of them. If you serve notice then they have to deal with the people who should be dealing with this mess - social care and the care services - and have the resources and skills to do so. Stop making the whole thing worse by making yourself a slave to this woman and get yourself out of this situation before you kill yourself and Mommy Dearest has another house to wreck.
She has agency, let her use that agency and live in her own house if that's what she wants. Social care will make it safe enough - not perfect, but safe enough.
And actually follow the advice you have been given for once. Because if you'd followed the advice you wouldn't have taken the woman in the first time, and certainly not the second, and would not be in this situation.
She can refuse the assessment for herself but she cannot refuse the carer's assessment for you. Because whether you like it or not, you are a carer. Therefore you are entitled to access to help to support you in your caring. Which is nothing to do with her at all. And, as she lives with you, your council has to provide it.
What's the point of writing a stiff letter to social services about how you've been dumped right in it?! As CK points out, you have allowed this to happen at each and every turn. What on earth do you expect social services to do?!
What on earth do you expect social services to do?!
She wants them to make the decision to rehouse D, because that way she won't have to take responsibility. In her own way, Penny is just as unwilling to take control of her own affairs as D and her son.
What on earth do you expect social services to do?!
She wants them to make the decision to rehouse D, because that way she won't have to take responsibility. In her own way, Penny is just as unwilling to take control of her own affairs as D and her son.
I knew that But Penny doesn't. She's still living the fantasy that the Social will declare Mummy incompetent and take over. An unholy combination of White Knight riding to the rescue and Bad Guys doing all the nasty, unpopular stuff so she and the son don't have too ...
Ain't going to happen. "Be your own best friend" may be utter pish, but there's an element of truth in it. The only person who can rescue Penny and do the bad stuff is Penny ... I suspect we'll be reading about Mummy's antics and the failings of social services for a while if past behaviour is any indication of the future.
What's the point of writing a stiff letter to social services about how you've been dumped right in it?! As CK points out, you have allowed this to happen at each and every turn. What on earth do you expect social services to do?!
The thing is, what Penny wants to do should be possible. In an ideal world, you should be able to go to social services, tell them that you have this awkward old woman in your house, that you are going to put her out on the street, and that her own house is uninhabitable. And in that ideal world, they would make all the assessments they needed to make at that point, agree that it was kind not to dump an elderly lady on a street corner, and work with Penny to create a plan to transition D's mum into her own home, or into some other facility.
Penny thinks that should happen, and I agree with her. It should happen.
But in the real world, that isn't going to happen. You can blame lack of funding, lack of staff, or lack of shits, but any observer looking at Penny's situation will see a vulnerable old woman who is going to be difficult to deal with being adequately housed and cared for by someone who appears to be prepared to continue to offer that care, even if she's rather not. And they'll say "we don't have an immediate problem here" and move on.
But Penny S took this woman in from a hospital stay, oh these aeons ago, turning down social care packages at the time. We all know because we heard all about it at the time, on the Difficult Relatives thread and another one on the lack of support for elderly ladies. And when this woman was hospitalised again, about 18-20 months ago, Penny S again took her into her home, against all advice. And why do we.know this? Oh yes, I remember, we had blow by blow accounts on all the threads at the time. Lots of complaining, lots of umming and aching, no following of advice.
Social care will step in on hospital discharge. Lots of pressures on them to resolve issues at that point.
Sheesh, now you're responsible for the taxi driver's safety as well?
I can confidently say that ANY taxi driver will have better boundaries than you and will have dealt with far scarier passengers.
My impression is that D is a frail, albeit loud, sickly old woman. Someone unable to care for herself, organize her own meals and laundry and such, is unlikely to be physically capable of causing anyone much physical harm. Sure, she can say a lot of unpleasant things-- perhaps even quite loudly. She might make one uncomfortable with a loud or even public display of anger or distress that wants to paint you as the villain in her drama. That only harms you if you let it. As Soror Magna said, taxi drivers have I'm sure dealt with much worse.
Trying to put myself in Penny's shoes, I guess the hard part of accepting what seems to everyone else here as very sensible and reasonable advice, is that doing so would entail acknowledging that you've now invested years of your life in an utterly failed venture. That your hard work, pain, and suffering was all for naught, and any anticipated reward (even if it was just "well done good and faithful servant") will surely never materialize. That what you thought was helping perhaps even is not. That's not an easy realization to accept, even if it's obvious to everyone else.
Otoh, as the saying goes, the only thing worse than spending two years (or is it 3? More?) in futile and unnecessary bondage is spending two years and one day on bondage
What's the point of writing a stiff letter to social services about how you've been dumped right in it?! As CK points out, you have allowed this to happen at each and every turn. What on earth do you expect social services to do?!
The thing is, what Penny wants to do should be possible. In an ideal world, you should be able to go to social services, tell them that you have this awkward old woman in your house, that you are going to put her out on the street, and that her own house is uninhabitable. And in that ideal world, they would make all the assessments they needed to make at that point, agree that it was kind not to dump an elderly lady on a street corner, and work with Penny to create a plan to transition D's mum into her own home, or into some other facility.
Penny thinks that should happen, and I agree with her. It should happen.
But in the real world, that isn't going to happen. You can blame lack of funding, lack of staff, or lack of shits, but any observer looking at Penny's situation will see a vulnerable old woman who is going to be difficult to deal with being adequately housed and cared for by someone who appears to be prepared to continue to offer that care, even if she's rather not. And they'll say "we don't have an immediate problem here" and move on.
That ignores the fact the elderly person has agency and, if they're considered competent, can refuse a care package however stupid and irresponsible that may seem to everyone else.
Based on personal experience, what tends to happen in these situations is the elderly person goes home and ends up learning the hard-way they can no longer manage without support. As their family and friends sit on the sidelines with everything crossed that nothing terrible will happen during this process. Then social services step in and work with the elderly person and the family to get something suitable in place.
But as you say, if someone else steps in first to take on the role of carer, social services aren't going to bother. As far as they're concerned, the situation has been resolved and there's nothing for them to do.
What Social Services aren't going to do is declare the elderly person incompetent so they' have to accept a care package as it makes everyone else's life easier.
acknowledging that you've now invested years of your life in an utterly failed venture. That your hard work, pain, and suffering was all for naught, and any anticipated reward
I consider it like playing a slot machine. After you've dumped hundreds (thousands?) of coins into the machine without winning, you don't want to give up. If you quit now, you've gotten nothing. But if you play just one more coin, you could get the big pay-off.
Before doing the silence thing again, on Sunday, I had a discussion with Friends at the Meeting House. Not during Meeting, nor yet a formal Meeting for Clearness, but I told them of the advice from social services (evict, taxi to unfit home, contact local social services, in that order and with no active support), and with one voice they chorused "You can't do that!"
Their advice - keep harrying social services.
@Penny S Right, what you're now conflating are two different issues.
Serving notice to D (and her son)
Social Service's responsibility
Firstly, you have a right to serve notice to D and her son if the situation is untenable. And various people have been telling you so since 15 April 2017
Your problem is that your local social services are denying responsibility for someone who is now a resident in their area, and you've allowed them to do this by refusing to accept that D is now a resident in your home and has been on and off since April 2017. They are trying to pass the buck on to the social services where her house is, even though she has not been living there since April 2017 - she was discharged from hospital the first time in January 2017, more here, the second time in April 2017 and you have been thinking about looking after her in your house, so having her to stay regularly since October 2016. Because you have set this situation up in this way, you have allowed both social care departments to have deniability for D. Because if you do send her home in a taxi, that social care department will probably deny responsibility too, as she is no longer resident in their borough.
The other problem you will come back to is that adult social care support is means tested and D will again refuse adult social care support as she is unwilling to spend any money that will take away from the inheritance she promised her son, especially now that inheritance has appreciated and she has said she doesn't want to go into a care home from the Aging Parents thread Jan 2017 But this is where D has agency and has to be allowed to make her own choices. (That by the way was three threads taken over by this stage by Penny S, for most of 2017).
Penny S, again not trying to be Hellish, but seriously concerned by this, which CK has highlighted, from 2015. I have a friend who has a cousin who feels that his mother's home, intended by his father and her to come to him, should provide her and her family with money. We have started to plan. Lock changing. Someone on watch during the funeral.
The house will go to whoever has been left it in D's Will, assuming she has made one. If she hasn't, it will pass according to the laws of intestacy. I'm not qualified in English Law, but in Scotland, assuming that your friend has no siblings, it would come to him.
Lock changing and having someone on watch during the funeral is completely pointless if D has made a will leaving the house to someone other than her son. Does her son know whether a) she has made a Will and b) whether he is sole beneficiary?
It's fair game (however you interpret that) to discuss matters that PennyS has put into the public domain. Digging for further details, expressing opinions on matters legal? Let's all just row back from that.
to show how long this saga has been going on and how much it has dominated certain threads for years, in some cases;
to give Penny S a flavour of how much information she's put into the public domain.
I wasn't signed in to the Old Ship™ to search that information out, it's very much in the public domain and I only linked to a few points that are germane to what is going on now.
(Yeah, I know, pot-kettle, but it's likely I'm going to be splashed all over the tabloids in a couple of months time: I've lost any privacy already.)
Whatever you think of Penny's decisions, situation, and stuckness, all she's done on the Ship is vent. You can easily scroll past her posts.
And if you're going to say "Because I care", your style is rather like a metal rasp that's been heated and dipped in acid. Generally, the opposite of helpful.
Comments
In the summer of 2016 while still at her address, D plugged in and switched on an appliance her son had identified as faulty and warned her not to use. A heater, I think. The circuit fused. She now says she was going to call in the electrician round the corner, but she didn't.
So I offered, and initiated this process. (After they remembered where the fuse box was.)
How to change fuse wire.
Step 1 Ensure all appliances unplugged and nothing is connected.
Step 2 Switch off fuse box
Step 3 Remove cover of fuses
Step 4 Identify blown fuse
Step 5 Remove fuse holder
Step 6 Remove remains of wire
Step 7 Cut length of wire of correct ampage
Step 8 Screw ends of wire into holder
Step 9 Replace holder
Step 10 Replace fuse cover
Step 11 Switch on fuse box
Step 12 Plug in and switch on last used appliance to test circuit. IF no problem, continue to test other appliances until faulty one blows circuit again. THEN repeat from Step 1 to Step 11.
Except that everything blew at Step 11, when there was nothing attached to the circuit to draw power. Ergo, nothing to do with my fuse fixing. Which is why the electrician wouldn't touch it without doing rewiring.
D rang the power supply company, but when she found she would have to pay for repair, she put the phone down. I didn't have an opportunity to offer a contribution.
In the same way she has not had a plumber in so she can flush the toilet without a bucket (before the electricity failure), and the kitchen sink tap turns off. She has not had hot water for some time.
In February 2017, she pulled her gas cooker to pieces. She was, at the time, very confused. There was no other means of heating. Since there had been other incidents with the cooker, her son would not enable her to replace it. We tried to get some sort of emergency help. There wasn't any. (I have only recently been able to get access to the gas meter to turn off the supply.)
I am not responsible for her not being able to go home. (Though she keeps harping on about the fuse.)
None of this goes back as far as 2013 - and I've checked in the old Ship. Nor have I prevented the involvement of social services. That is entirely down to D. They won't deal with me, anyway, as I am not a relative.
Thank you. Tubbs and Amanda. The hospital told D's son that they sometimes had to discharge patients back to totally unsuitable places if that was the wish of the patient, despite the places not being in a fit state.
It is possible, and I hope I'm wrong, to construe a narrative in which D has deliberately planned what has happened. Certain things she said and did on visiting on Saturdays in January 2017 suggest an intention to move in. She has the intelligence, the history of manipulativeness, and, of course, the capacity to do so. But I do hope I'm wrong. It's too nasty.
She is currently manoeuvring to get me to stop using my usual supermarket. Refusing to drink the whole milk she needs from them as it goes off. When left on the table in the sun. I couldn't even worm round it by getting the more expensive organic from the business of Prince Charles - and she loves the royals. I've told her I shop where I shop. She retreated. It will be interesting to see if she goes on on this subject.
FWIW, if there was a plumbing or electrical problem in my home, I can't imagine an electrician or plumber telling my adult children that unless their names are on the title deeds, they cannot organise a repair within the family home. And yet apparently this is the situation the son is in. He cannot get the flush repaired in the toilet of his family home because of the title deeds.
My main concern for you, Penny, is that when this nonogenarian dies her son will fall apart and you will find yourself in, were it possible, an even worse situation caring for him.
Most of us know that theory, but aren't so great at putting it into practice. Some friends in similar situations have tried to hold it together in a similar way to Penny. Others have decided that if their aged relative is really insistent that they'll be fine at home, then it's best to let them get on with it. And hope that the accident that makes them realise they're not isn't too serious. (Which I appreciate sounds appalling when it's typed out like that!)
Other than the fact that your willingness to let her stay with you is enabling her to ignore the problems with her house, and save a fair amount of cash while she's at it.
Other than the fact that your willingness to let her stay with you means they've got no reason to get involved. As far as they're concerned she's being well looked after.
You need to accept that the only one who will ever change this situation is you. It's not in anybody else's interests to do so.
Ignoring the facts because they would lead to too nasty a conclusion? Yeah, I'm sure that's sound logic.
Fucks sake, woman - she's played you like Mozart played the piano. Tweak a heartstring here, prod a guilty feeling there, play up to your "Good Samaritan" narrative when necessary and before you know it she's got you doing everything the way she wants as if it's her house and you're just the hired help. Except she's not paying for any of it.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Assuming she lets you brew it, of course...
I've got a fiver that says you'll be shopping at her preferred place before summer is out.
The unwanted house guest who refuses to treat you or your home with respect will still be there.
As far as she’s concerned, this situation may not be ideal, but she’s got free accommodation, an (un)willing help and a punch-bag.
It’s up to you whether you continue to play her games, start standing up for yourself or just tell her to go. But no one else is going to do it for you.
Link is to a PDF of a 3 page story.
The response from @Penny S was:
I am responding to this here, just because:
Seriously, a man of approximately 70 is not, repeat not, a dependent child legally. Dependent children are under 16 - they may be aged 16-18 if in full time education and not married. The only way he could be dependent legally is if he is disabled and unable to care for himself. The fact that he's is lacking any backbone and cannot stand up for himself or organise anything around Mommy Dearest means he needs to find some resolve, not that he's dependent. But no, he's so fucking dependent he's now relying on another elderly woman to sort everything out for him. You do realise that when Mommy Dearest dies, he'll either collapse entirely or run off with a younger woman or man.
So why the ever living fuck are we having stream of consciousness posts about how difficult it is caring for D? You won't acknowledge you are a carer, you won't ask for help from the right person - the GP is not going to be able to access carer's support, just refer it on to the relevant authority, if they have the time and energy on top of general practice overload. Social Care carry out assessments. If D does not consent, you can still have an assessment as a carer to get Social Care in to make assessments. It is your house, she is a guest. So rather than whinging on and on here about how difficult it all is start doing something about it. You have been told this repeatedly, but, to reiterate, the only person who can resolve this is you.
D cannot choose to live in your house if you do not consent to her living there. I would put a large bet on the supposition that you didn't actually put any agreements into writing? There is nothing legally agreed? That you didn't agree what should happen if her care became beyond you? Did no planning or forethought whatsoever, just took her in as she was going to die soon.
Get over yourself. Stop mooning after this waste of space of a man who is using you to deal with Mommy Dearest, and serve notice on the pair of them. If you serve notice then they have to deal with the people who should be dealing with this mess - social care and the care services - and have the resources and skills to do so. Stop making the whole thing worse by making yourself a slave to this woman and get yourself out of this situation before you kill yourself and Mommy Dearest has another house to wreck.
She has agency, let her use that agency and live in her own house if that's what she wants. Social care will make it safe enough - not perfect, but safe enough.
And actually follow the advice you have been given for once. Because if you'd followed the advice you wouldn't have taken the woman in the first time, and certainly not the second, and would not be in this situation.
FWIW: I've never gotten the impression that Penny is "mooning after this waste of space of a man". AIUI, D's son is a friend of Penny's.
But I would give up if I were you CK.
Penny S isn’t going to listen however the advice is put. She wants to care for this person - she just doesn’t want it to be official. She wants to join in the ‘Ageing parents’ thread as a carer. She wants to be seen as a Good Christian doing her bit. Of course she’d also like D to be grateful, understanding and compliant- but she isn’t, she’s a pain in the arse.
I would have had her removed long ago. I cared for my Mum when she was old, along with the rest of my family because I loved her. But, even for us, it got too much in the end and we had to admit defeat.
Would Penny S even visit D if she left? I doubt it, no love there that I can see.
I spend a surprising amount of time at work advising people that they are being bad Samaritans and that their actions are preventing social services from taking appropriate action to give people the care they need. I’m not saying anything to Penny that I wouldn’t say in person.
As for evicting her - I have seen how she reacts to challenging situations. I would need professional backup to get her removed immediately (I can do it with no notice, legally) . The interval between notice being given and her leaving would be intolerable. It is a frightening prospect.
Aravis' description of what should happen is not quite what my local people were going along with. The local people will do zilch if I do what she says. I will have to get her back to her borough for anything to be done. And they suggested telling her local people AFTER she has left me. It's not practicable. I send a fiercely protesting woman with mental health issues in a taxi? What about safeguarding the driver?
I took her back on the understanding it was a few weeks while she had her house dealt with. She now denies that there was such an understanding. She has nowhere to go. And the process of getting her out - have you any idea how that could be done?
From the Aging Parents thread 17 Feb 2017 "I wrote off my friend as marriage material because I knew that end of life care would fall to me, and I knew what D was like back then."
Somehow Penny has ended up in a situation she was so keen to avoid that she turned down marriage to D's son. And yet, here they both are, mother and son, living in Penny S's house.
I can confidently say that ANY taxi driver will have better boundaries than you and will have dealt with far scarier passengers.
So you did this in writing, with solicitors drawing up the agreement? So that there was evidence of the agreement and something to fall back on? No, of course, you didn't. You knew how difficult this woman was, you've been telling us all for four fucking years - not counting the coy hints on previous threads, and you did nothing to protect yourself?
Glad we've cleared up that you've removed her from her local borough so made it harder for social care from her district council to support her. That's taken you a while to face up to.
She's been living with you for over a year. She is now resident at your address, your continual denials and refusals to accept this or not, so she's not going to be looked after in the borough you have uprooted her from, so social care in that area will suggest she is now going to be the responsibility of the district council where she is now housed. That's another of those little complicated wrinkles that was pointed out to you at the time on another hell thread, one of the two you were splurging all over at the time, that you didn't have the wit or comprehension to take in. So you have made the situation more complicated and provided deniability to two social services departments. Well done. Have a cigar. That's what happens when you don't take advice.
Now do you start getting glimmers as to why this thread, you know, the one called Bad Samaritans, is the one I chose to tackle this latest whinge-fest?
Wow, you can evict her without notice? You have it much easier than you would in California where you have to give thirty days notice. Put away all your fragile things and put the cops on speed dial for the storm that will follow and be free! Free! Free!
But you won't. Oh, well.
You have described a man of almost 70 who is highly qualified, with a PhD, but whose mother has decided for him how he is going to spend his salary. Despite having a job, he has no money because his mother has controlled his spending and not allowed him to have savings. Presumably she has meantime been hoarding her own income. Does he have any guarantee that he is the beneficiary of his mother's will?
He does not drive or, at least, does not have a car, and has been dependent on you to drive him for some time. He is currently dependent on you for the roof over his head. When CK posted the list regarding care requirements, you genuinely thought that he fell within the definition of a "dependent child."
You have told us of his terror and dread of her death, although most people whose parents are in their early / mid 90s, have come to terms with the idea that their parent cannot live for ever. Not so, D's son, apparently.
If you are envisaging a future in which, after D's death, her son inherits the large house and a wodge of money, and then hires a skip into which he merrily chucks all D's hoarded possessions, does up the house and you live happily ever after, I think you should think again.
I am genuinely concerned for your future, Penny. I think you will go straight from being D's carer to being D's son's carer.
I admire your persistence, but she’s not going to do anything whatever to help herself.
Give up.
I am pretty sure North East Quine is on the money, down to the uncertainty of this castle in the air: there was coy mention of a cousin who was living in expectation of inheriting the house of a "friend" who was relying on inheriting it as his pension. (When L'Organist was sorting out an aunt and her nephew - can't be bothered to go and find it now.)
No, I know she won't resolve this. But she tends to stop giving us blow by blow accounts across every thread she can find (Today I Call to Hell, Difficult Relatives, Aging Parents, et al) for a while if under attack. And I know, pot calling kettle black, you've all had far too much information about acid attacks, but I promise I will not be going on about this in four years time.
And no CK, you are not a pot - or a crack pot
A house is never a pension. We have a bungalow which we rent out. This year five months rent has been taken up on a new boiler and oven and a problem with the fencing in the garden. We will make a little on it this year - but certainly not a living!
How's that for long distance fund-raising?
That’s great! And every little counts.
I've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm sure. But I get the distinct impression she's having a whale of a time and needs her 'difficult relative' a hell of a lot more than the other way round. Nothing wrong with that. It's obviously a perfect partnership.
Yep. Each seems to be enabling the other’s behaviour. At the same time PennyS can pat herself on the back for what a Good Little Christian she’s being.
I know a couple of people who love to work themselves into the ground voluntarily, then also enjoy moaning about it.
Ho hum, it takes all sorts :rolleyes:
She can refuse the assessment for herself but she cannot refuse the carer's assessment for you. Because whether you like it or not, you are a carer. Therefore you are entitled to access to help to support you in your caring. Which is nothing to do with her at all. And, as she lives with you, your council has to provide it.
What's the point of writing a stiff letter to social services about how you've been dumped right in it?! As CK points out, you have allowed this to happen at each and every turn. What on earth do you expect social services to do?!
She wants them to make the decision to rehouse D, because that way she won't have to take responsibility. In her own way, Penny is just as unwilling to take control of her own affairs as D and her son.
I knew that
Ain't going to happen. "Be your own best friend" may be utter pish, but there's an element of truth in it. The only person who can rescue Penny and do the bad stuff is Penny ... I suspect we'll be reading about Mummy's antics and the failings of social services for a while if past behaviour is any indication of the future.
The thing is, what Penny wants to do should be possible. In an ideal world, you should be able to go to social services, tell them that you have this awkward old woman in your house, that you are going to put her out on the street, and that her own house is uninhabitable. And in that ideal world, they would make all the assessments they needed to make at that point, agree that it was kind not to dump an elderly lady on a street corner, and work with Penny to create a plan to transition D's mum into her own home, or into some other facility.
Penny thinks that should happen, and I agree with her. It should happen.
But in the real world, that isn't going to happen. You can blame lack of funding, lack of staff, or lack of shits, but any observer looking at Penny's situation will see a vulnerable old woman who is going to be difficult to deal with being adequately housed and cared for by someone who appears to be prepared to continue to offer that care, even if she's rather not. And they'll say "we don't have an immediate problem here" and move on.
Social care will step in on hospital discharge. Lots of pressures on them to resolve issues at that point.
My impression is that D is a frail, albeit loud, sickly old woman. Someone unable to care for herself, organize her own meals and laundry and such, is unlikely to be physically capable of causing anyone much physical harm. Sure, she can say a lot of unpleasant things-- perhaps even quite loudly. She might make one uncomfortable with a loud or even public display of anger or distress that wants to paint you as the villain in her drama. That only harms you if you let it. As Soror Magna said, taxi drivers have I'm sure dealt with much worse.
Thankfully so.
Otoh, as the saying goes, the only thing worse than spending two years (or is it 3? More?) in futile and unnecessary bondage is spending two years and one day on bondage
That ignores the fact the elderly person has agency and, if they're considered competent, can refuse a care package however stupid and irresponsible that may seem to everyone else.
Based on personal experience, what tends to happen in these situations is the elderly person goes home and ends up learning the hard-way they can no longer manage without support. As their family and friends sit on the sidelines with everything crossed that nothing terrible will happen during this process. Then social services step in and work with the elderly person and the family to get something suitable in place.
But as you say, if someone else steps in first to take on the role of carer, social services aren't going to bother. As far as they're concerned, the situation has been resolved and there's nothing for them to do.
What Social Services aren't going to do is declare the elderly person incompetent so they' have to accept a care package as it makes everyone else's life easier.
Quite. For reference, here's a link to Humans Are Bad At Making Decisions Part 51.
@Penny S Right, what you're now conflating are two different issues.
Firstly, you have a right to serve notice to D and her son if the situation is untenable. And various people have been telling you so since 15 April 2017
Your problem is that your local social services are denying responsibility for someone who is now a resident in their area, and you've allowed them to do this by refusing to accept that D is now a resident in your home and has been on and off since April 2017. They are trying to pass the buck on to the social services where her house is, even though she has not been living there since April 2017 - she was discharged from hospital the first time in January 2017, more here, the second time in April 2017 and you have been thinking about looking after her in your house, so having her to stay regularly since October 2016. Because you have set this situation up in this way, you have allowed both social care departments to have deniability for D. Because if you do send her home in a taxi, that social care department will probably deny responsibility too, as she is no longer resident in their borough.
The other problem you will come back to is that adult social care support is means tested and D will again refuse adult social care support as she is unwilling to spend any money that will take away from the inheritance she promised her son, especially now that inheritance has appreciated and she has said she doesn't want to go into a care home from the Aging Parents thread Jan 2017 But this is where D has agency and has to be allowed to make her own choices. (That by the way was three threads taken over by this stage by Penny S, for most of 2017).
@North East Quine Here's the first reference to the cousin and the second, both from September 2015.
The house will go to whoever has been left it in D's Will, assuming she has made one. If she hasn't, it will pass according to the laws of intestacy. I'm not qualified in English Law, but in Scotland, assuming that your friend has no siblings, it would come to him.
Lock changing and having someone on watch during the funeral is completely pointless if D has made a will leaving the house to someone other than her son. Does her son know whether a) she has made a Will and b) whether he is sole beneficiary?
It's fair game (however you interpret that) to discuss matters that PennyS has put into the public domain. Digging for further details, expressing opinions on matters legal? Let's all just row back from that.
DT
HH
- to show how long this saga has been going on and how much it has dominated certain threads for years, in some cases;
- to give Penny S a flavour of how much information she's put into the public domain.
I wasn't signed in to the Old Ship™ to search that information out, it's very much in the public domain and I only linked to a few points that are germane to what is going on now.(Yeah, I know, pot-kettle, but it's likely I'm going to be splashed all over the tabloids in a couple of months time: I've lost any privacy already.)
Um, why are you so unfailingly nasty about this?
Whatever you think of Penny's decisions, situation, and stuckness, all she's done on the Ship is vent. You can easily scroll past her posts.
And if you're going to say "Because I care", your style is rather like a metal rasp that's been heated and dipped in acid. Generally, the opposite of helpful.
So what gives?