The "Holiness" Movement among the Protest Ants always seems to turn out badly in real human lives ...
Catholics, OTOH, have a serious awareness of the reality of "sin(s)" and so have the Sacrament of Confession ...
... and Confession every Sunday Mass ...
ISTM that sin occurs everywhere on the Christian spectrum, regardless of the framework.
But the "Holiness" folks don't handle
that fact very well, either theologically or historically ...
Are the holiness folks the ones who reckon that you can achieve perfection in this life? How do they relate (if at all) to the prosperity gospeleers?
The Wiki on the history and nature of the Holiness movement. The Holiness movement is connected in some ways to Pentecostalism, to which the Prosperity Gospel also has some connections. They are, as I understand it, three distinct movements, but with overlap.
Falwell, who took over as president of Liberty in 2007 after years as a lawyer handling its real estate interests, intertwined his personal finances with those of the evangelical Christian university founded by his father.
He put his two sons - and their wives as well - on the university’s payroll. He arranged the transfer of a multi-acre Liberty facility to his personal trainer. He enlisted a friend’s construction company to manage an ambitious campus expansion costing hundreds of millions of dollars.
And before becoming school president, Falwell set up two companies that enabled him to cut property deals with one of the many nonprofit entities affiliated with the university, Reuters found. In each of the deals, Falwell played multiple roles with potentially conflicting interests: He was an officer of the university, a board member for the nonprofit selling the land, and a private developer who could profit from the transactions.
Read the rest if you're interested. I particularly liked the part about Liberty University President Jerry Falwell, Jr. spending $2 million of university funds to build a tunnel linking the LU campus with a shopping plaza partly owned by . . . businessman Jerry Falwell, Jr.
I'll leave the question of whether such self-dealing is illegal to lawyers, but it's definitely unethical but the standard of any legitimate charity or college. LU has announced an investigation of Falwell, Jr.'s tenure as president but will not investigate any of the sweetheart land deals with the university Falwell, Jr. benefited from prior to becoming president (i.e. during the tenure of his father, Falwell, Sr.).
I highly recommend the 2000 documentary "The Eyes of Tammy Faye," narrated by RuPaul, to anyone interested in the televangelist phenomenon in general and the Bakkers in particular.
Are the holiness folks the ones who reckon that you can achieve perfection in this life? How do they relate (if at all) to the prosperity gospeleers?
The Wiki on the history and nature of the Holiness movement. The Holiness movement is connected in some ways to Pentecostalism, to which the Prosperity Gospel also has some connections. They are, as I understand it, three distinct movements, but with overlap.
Perhaps three distinct movements with some overlap, but little overlap, in my experience, between the prosperity gospel and the Holiness movement.
The people I have known and read about who take the holiness movement seriously have been mainly Wesleyan Methodists who take Wesley's ideas of sanctification after conversion very much to heart. They strive for holiness of life, the correction of each others' faults through prayer and discussion, and seem to be striving for a godliness on this earth. This is by its very nature not an enterprise with wide appeal, just as emulating the Catholic saints is a minority exercise (and very similar types of people doing it, I suspect). It does tend to appeal to rather conservative and literalist people, AFAICS, but they're certainly not after wealth.
However those who genuinely strive for holiness are sometimes infiltrated (perhaps not quite the right word) by more cult-like figures - and things can go seriously awry. The Tinker Tailor cult in Sydney in the 1960s is one such example.
Just thought I'd update this with the information that he's now suing Liberty for defamation of character. Article from snopes reprinting the AP article here:
I will laugh really quite a lot if the judge dismisses the case on the grounds that Falwell is libel-proof (i.e. his reputation is so bad no further damage can be caused).
Not that I harbour any sympathy for Liberty University, but I sincerely hope they counter-sue. Falwell Jr. has undoubtedly done more to damage their reputation than they have to damage his.
She did appear in one of those really odd *Reality*TV* shows -- "The Surreal Life" -- that brought unlikely people together for several days close companionship, conversation, etc ... One of Tammy's costars was a porn star ...
Ron Jeremy was also involved with an evangelical church that helps get porn actors out of the industry. He was friends with the pastor and his wife, and while obviously not sharing their dislike of his business, agrees with them about the difficulty that sex-workers have in finding mainstream employment.
There are videos on YouTube of Jeremy having barbecues with the family and delivering a lecture at their church, and he apparently called the pastor for prayer when he had a heart-attack a while back.
Not sure what's become of this friendship now that RJ is a jailbird facing some fairly serious sex-assault charges.
Just to be clear, the church I mentioned doesn't produce religious porn; they are opposed to pornography of all sorts. They just co-operate with a porn actor on a few charitable endeavours.
Just to be clear, the church I mentioned doesn't produce religious porn; they are opposed to pornography of all sorts. They just co-operate with a porn actor on a few charitable endeavours.
Make money doing bad things. Have enough money now, so repudiate the bad things. Tell everyone you found Jesus. Lecture others about being good.
I really hate sin-repudiation- redemption story arcs except when they result in back sliding. Which also sounds porno: back sliding.
Just to be clear, the church I mentioned doesn't produce religious porn; they are opposed to pornography of all sorts. They just co-operate with a porn actor on a few charitable endeavours.
Make money doing bad things. Have enough money now, so repudiate the bad things. Tell everyone you found Jesus. Lecture others about being good.
I really hate sin-repudiation- redemption story arcs except when they result in back sliding. Which also sounds porno: back sliding.
I'm not sure your criticicism applies to anyone involved in that particular charity. As far as I know, neither the couple in charge nor the porn-star have repudiated any of their views.
The pastor and his wife think pornography is bad, and want to get people out of that business.
Ron Jeremy thinks pornography is okay, but recognizes that it can be difficult for the performers to find other work, so he assists the couple in running an employment service for them.
I know RJ has spoken of his own belief in God and his Jewish identity, but I don't think that's part of any renunciation of his work in the adult-entertainment industry.
(And again, I don't know how any of this has been impacted by Jeremy's recent arrest and upcoming trial.)
"Industry" is a value-free term, so you can lose the quotation marks around it. Pornography is an activity that produces a commodity that is bought and sold, employs people, etc., ergo an industry. That you find it distasteful makes it no less an industry. It is a rather cartoonish example of Marx's alienation of labour, I grant, but it's an industry whose market value in the US exceeds that of pre-covid mainstream film production. (I'm not singling the US for special opprobrium here, it's just that that is how the comparison was framed in the documentary I saw on the annual Las Vegas trade show.)
After shocking many in the evangelical movement by endorsing Donald Trump over other Republicans for the 2016 presidential nomination, Liberty University President Jerry Falwell Jr. pumped millions of the nonprofit religious institution’s funds into Republican causes and efforts to promote the Trump administration, blurring the lines between education and politics.
The culmination of his efforts was the creation of a university-funded campus “think tank” — which has produced no peer-reviewed academic work and bears little relation to study centers at other universities — that ran pro-Trump ads, hired Trump allies including former adviser Sebastian Gorka and current Trump attorney Jenna Ellis to serve as fellows and, in recent weeks, has aggressively promoted Trump’s baseless claims of election fraud.
The think tank — called the Falkirk Center, a portmanteau of Falwell’s name and that of GOP activist Charlie Kirk, who co-founded it — purchased campaign-season ads on Facebook, at least $50,000's worth of which were designated by the network as political ads, that promoted Trump and other Republican candidates by name.
<snip>
Liberty’s actions, detailed for the first time by POLITICO, suggest the university is pushing the boundaries of its status as a nonprofit organization under Section 501c(3) of the federal tax code, which forbids spending money on political campaigns. Liberty’s actions also go well beyond the traditional role of a university as a politically neutral institution of higher learning.
For those who don't want to get too much into the weeds, there are different kinds of non-profit organizations in the U.S. Some, like universities and churches, allow donors to write off contributions as tax deductions. Others, like political parties or "interest advocacy groups" do not. The general rule is that if you're lobbying the government or endorsing candidates you can't get a tax write off, and if you're getting a tax write-off you can't get involved in partisan politics. Looks like Falwell was allegedly shifting money from one kind of organization (Liberty University) to the other kind (the so-called "think tank") in order to dodge tax law.
Trevor Noah interviewed former President Obama recently and pointed out that everyone who Obama roasts makes a run for President - Trump and Kanye West. A possible way of getting a sane GOP candidate next time, if Obama is canny?
Trevor Noah interviewed former President Obama recently and pointed out that everyone who Obama roasts makes a run for President - Trump and Kanye West. A possible way of getting a sane GOP candidate next time, if Obama is canny?
Clearly Obama needs to roast at least 2 wingnuts every four years and get them fighting among themselves.
Fucking hell. The last post on this was in the middle of December and that's your choice of comment to resurrect the thread.
You've been asked repeatedly not to do this, and I can only assume that this behaviour is now completely deliberate. That marks you down as a jerk, and being a jerk is a C1 offence. I'm going backstage to confer with my fellow hosts and admins.
Fucking hell. The last post on this was in the middle of December and that's your choice of comment to resurrect the thread.
You've been asked repeatedly not to do this, and I can only assume that this behaviour is now completely deliberate. That marks you down as a jerk, and being a jerk is a C1 offence. I'm going backstage to confer with my fellow hosts and admins.
Doc Tor
Hell host
Ummm ...
(1) The question of the "Evangelical" folks in our midst in relation our culture in general, and wildly to the Trump Movement is still a fresh one ...
But ... ummm ...
(2) I have asked for a Rule as to when a topic is too old to be discussed further, and never was given a clear line that must not be crossed ...
If you have a specific question about what's acceptable here then the Styx is the place to raise those questions. Likewise, if you consider a ruling by a Host as unreasonable or unclear. Talking back to Hosts is not acceptable (see our Commandment #6).
If you have a specific question about what's acceptable here then the Styx is the place to raise those questions. Likewise, if you consider a ruling by a Host as unreasonable or unclear. Talking back to Hosts is not acceptable (see our Commandment #6).
Alan Ship of Fools Admin
I DID raise the reasonable question in "Styx" ...
Please spell out how "old" a thread is in order to be TOO old for fresh comments ...
I asked -- politely -- and got no response ...
Three days ... ??? ... a week ... ??? ... three weeks ... ???
Comments
But the "Holiness" folks don't handle
that fact very well, either theologically or historically ...
Read the rest if you're interested. I particularly liked the part about Liberty University President Jerry Falwell, Jr. spending $2 million of university funds to build a tunnel linking the LU campus with a shopping plaza partly owned by . . . businessman Jerry Falwell, Jr.
I'll leave the question of whether such self-dealing is illegal to lawyers, but it's definitely unethical but the standard of any legitimate charity or college. LU has announced an investigation of Falwell, Jr.'s tenure as president but will not investigate any of the sweetheart land deals with the university Falwell, Jr. benefited from prior to becoming president (i.e. during the tenure of his father, Falwell, Sr.).
Yes
The people I have known and read about who take the holiness movement seriously have been mainly Wesleyan Methodists who take Wesley's ideas of sanctification after conversion very much to heart. They strive for holiness of life, the correction of each others' faults through prayer and discussion, and seem to be striving for a godliness on this earth. This is by its very nature not an enterprise with wide appeal, just as emulating the Catholic saints is a minority exercise (and very similar types of people doing it, I suspect). It does tend to appeal to rather conservative and literalist people, AFAICS, but they're certainly not after wealth.
However those who genuinely strive for holiness are sometimes infiltrated (perhaps not quite the right word) by more cult-like figures - and things can go seriously awry. The Tinker Tailor cult in Sydney in the 1960s is one such example.
Excuse me?!
IIRC, I was simply agreeing (with tongue firmly in cheek) with what @Doc Tor had just (equally mischievously) posted...
Article from snopes here.
Ron Jeremy was also involved with an evangelical church that helps get porn actors out of the industry. He was friends with the pastor and his wife, and while obviously not sharing their dislike of his business, agrees with them about the difficulty that sex-workers have in finding mainstream employment.
There are videos on YouTube of Jeremy having barbecues with the family and delivering a lecture at their church, and he apparently called the pastor for prayer when he had a heart-attack a while back.
Not sure what's become of this friendship now that RJ is a jailbird facing some fairly serious sex-assault charges.
There's an image I could have done without!
Make money doing bad things. Have enough money now, so repudiate the bad things. Tell everyone you found Jesus. Lecture others about being good.
I really hate sin-repudiation- redemption story arcs except when they result in back sliding. Which also sounds porno: back sliding.
I'm not sure your criticicism applies to anyone involved in that particular charity. As far as I know, neither the couple in charge nor the porn-star have repudiated any of their views.
The pastor and his wife think pornography is bad, and want to get people out of that business.
Ron Jeremy thinks pornography is okay, but recognizes that it can be difficult for the performers to find other work, so he assists the couple in running an employment service for them.
I know RJ has spoken of his own belief in God and his Jewish identity, but I don't think that's part of any renunciation of his work in the adult-entertainment industry.
(And again, I don't know how any of this has been impacted by Jeremy's recent arrest and upcoming trial.)
For those who don't want to get too much into the weeds, there are different kinds of non-profit organizations in the U.S. Some, like universities and churches, allow donors to write off contributions as tax deductions. Others, like political parties or "interest advocacy groups" do not. The general rule is that if you're lobbying the government or endorsing candidates you can't get a tax write off, and if you're getting a tax write-off you can't get involved in partisan politics. Looks like Falwell was allegedly shifting money from one kind of organization (Liberty University) to the other kind (the so-called "think tank") in order to dodge tax law.
Simon Toad, dear, why don't you try out Fallwell, Jr. (that bogan yabbo) in Oz, then let us know how it goes, ok? Fair dinkum, eh?
Clearly Obama needs to roast at least 2 wingnuts every four years and get them fighting among themselves.
Australia prospers when America prospers, GK. I am a firm believer in that dictum, but I also believe in stirring the pot.
Fucking hell. The last post on this was in the middle of December and that's your choice of comment to resurrect the thread.
You've been asked repeatedly not to do this, and I can only assume that this behaviour is now completely deliberate. That marks you down as a jerk, and being a jerk is a C1 offence. I'm going backstage to confer with my fellow hosts and admins.
Doc Tor
Hell host
Ummm ...
(1) The question of the "Evangelical" folks in our midst in relation our culture in general, and wildly to the Trump Movement is still a fresh one ...
But ... ummm ...
(2) I have asked for a Rule as to when a topic is too old to be discussed further, and never was given a clear line that must not be crossed ...
So ... *whatever*
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
I DID raise the reasonable question in "Styx" ...
Please spell out how "old" a thread is in order to be TOO old for fresh comments ...
I asked -- politely -- and got no response ...
Three days ... ??? ... a week ... ??? ... three weeks ... ???
It's not that difficult a concept.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
I did ask for clarity and none was given -- in my Styx Thread "Rules ... ???" ...
Wait ... A member just informed me, "There is no rule, no line; you're just supposed to know ..."