Remembrance Day

2

Comments

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    I don't observe the day in any way at all. If I am at Mass on the nearest Sunday I keep the silence alongside everyone else. Thats it.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Sandemaniac - I apologise; I thought you were setting out your own opinion.

    Accepted unreservedly - especially as it's led to an interesting tangent.

  • I'm not going to argue in the slightest with anyone who is uncomfortable with the commemoration - I was glad that Covid-19 prevented the anniversary of VE-Day becoming a gammon-fest. I just feel that too many of my family are still out there to not do *something*.
  • "Gammon-fest" ...?
  • Sorry - probably a pond difference - outbreak of right-wing nationalism "We bashed the jolly old hun's arse!" etc.
  • Baptist Trainfan is on the gammon side of the pond, though! Gammon = the colour the colour racist white people go in the sun.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Baptist Trainfan is on the gammon side of the pond, though! Gammon = the colour the colour racist white people go in the sun.

    I thought the idea was that their face gets flushed with anger while yelling about whatever right-wing grievance is gnawing at their brain.
  • And the BBC publicied the Westminster Abbey Armistice Day service commemorating the burial of the 'Unknown Soldier' as an 'Event'
  • I'm a Great War history nut, and observe the day by posting things on Facebook about the Great War.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Even though we are no longer working full time (I have completely stopped, Madame still does 4 or 5 days a month), we observe silence at 11 am, as well as placing flowers on the local memorial.
  • For as long as I can remember, there has always been a Remembrance Sunday in the UK. However, I can also recall a time when very little notice was made of 11am on 11th November. This was put right about 20 or so years ago.
  • Telford wrote: »
    For as long as I can remember, there has always been a Remembrance Sunday in the UK. However, I can also recall a time when very little notice was made of 11am on 11th November. This was put right about 20 or so years ago.

    Interesting. By my recollection, in Canada 11:00 AM became LESS prominent as the years went on. Mind you, I have been away for a couple of decades, so I can't entirely rule out that there has been a revival in that time.

    In the late 90s/early 2000s, I worked at a gym, and one year, prompted by a particular staff member, they did a moment of silence. But this was almost certainly a more traditional environment than most, and even there, it sorta had the feeling of a novelty.
  • There was a period in the 1980's when the future of our days of remembrance were in doubt. It was about the Veterans dying off. But things didn't go that way.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    There was a period in the 1980's when the future of our days of remembrance were in doubt. It was about the Veterans dying off. But things didn't go that way.

    That would have been a time when there were less and less WW1 veterans

  • Then we went and fought another couple of fruitless wars that killed 100,000s of people and created a new set of traumatised veterans.
  • Telford wrote: »
    For as long as I can remember, there has always been a Remembrance Sunday in the UK. However, I can also recall a time when very little notice was made of 11am on 11th November. This was put right about 20 or so years ago.

    Agreed. It was mentioned in School Assembly but little more - indeed reference was made to "how it used to be observed on the 11th". I think the change came specifically in 1995 when, to my memory, we had four Silences marking VE Day, VJ Day, Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day. Personally I wish a decision made on it being either the Sunday or the 11th (which, of course, may be a Sunday!)
  • Telford wrote: »
    For as long as I can remember, there has always been a Remembrance Sunday in the UK. However, I can also recall a time when very little notice was made of 11am on 11th November. This was put right about 20 or so years ago.

    Just to point out that the bit I have emphasised is a subjective view. Although it is undeniable that all of the UK's political establishment and media goes along with marking Armistice Day (11/11) as well as Remembrance Sunday (the nearest Sunday to 11/11 - which turns out invariably to be the second Sunday in November) it (subjectively) felt at the time, and feels now, as if there was a political push from the right to increase the level of praise for the military, and implicitly make having a strong military to be considered a good thing. This push rather made use (again, in my subjective opinion, abuse) of the natural desire of the armed forces charities to carry on reminding the public of their existence and utility to promote a political agenda.

  • Fawkes Cat wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    For as long as I can remember, there has always been a Remembrance Sunday in the UK. However, I can also recall a time when very little notice was made of 11am on 11th November. This was put right about 20 or so years ago.

    Just to point out that the bit I have emphasised is a subjective view. Although it is undeniable that all of the UK's political establishment and media goes along with marking Armistice Day (11/11) as well as Remembrance Sunday (the nearest Sunday to 11/11 - which turns out invariably to be the second Sunday in November) it (subjectively) felt at the time, and feels now, as if there was a political push from the right to increase the level of praise for the military, and implicitly make having a strong military to be considered a good thing. This push rather made use (again, in my subjective opinion, abuse) of the natural desire of the armed forces charities to carry on reminding the public of their existence and utility to promote a political agenda.

    Indeed.

    This, far right of the picture, is when I fell out with the RBL: https://stavvers.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/bx_4kzgccaabf2w.jpg
  • The objections of the Women's Cooperative, the Peace Pledge Union and other like-minded organisations in the early 1930s are still valid. Remembrance is still being used to glorify war, the red poppy still being worn as a mark of patriotism, the 'never again' aspect of Remembrance is lost in the jingoistic nationalism of making nations great (again) even as that stokes the fires of international tension that breaks out in war.
  • Oh Karl, what a terrible picture.
  • The objections of the Women's Cooperative, the Peace Pledge Union and other like-minded organisations in the early 1930s are still valid. Remembrance is still being used to glorify war, the red poppy still being worn as a mark of patriotism, the 'never again' aspect of Remembrance is lost in the jingoistic nationalism of making nations great (again) even as that stokes the fires of international tension that breaks out in war.

    The red poppy ( the only poppy needed imo) is part of an annual charity collection.

  • Of course it is, but it has acquired a whole array of meanings as well as "I've given to the British Legion".
  • You don't need to 'buy' something to give to charity. And, besides why should ordinary people be asked to dig into their pockets for loose change to pay the cost of wars the government decided to wage? Which isn't just about the current government who seems quite happy to cut welfare payments to the point where food bank use is rising exponentially - even under former governments with benefits that were more readily accessible and paid a bit closer to what's needed there was still a need to support veterans and their families from the mental, emotional and physical impact of being asked to protect the interests of rich Brits.

    The white poppy also supports charity, just different charities. The purple one supports animal charities.
  • I'm unsure about Legacy in the UK, but Legacy in Australia is the cream on the top of other Veterans benefits. One of my clients is the daughter of a Vet. Legacy paid for that portion of the cost of a new wheelchair that the Government's subsidy didn't meet.
  • The objections of the Women's Cooperative, the Peace Pledge Union and other like-minded organisations in the early 1930s are still valid. Remembrance is still being used to glorify war, the red poppy still being worn as a mark of patriotism, the 'never again' aspect of Remembrance is lost in the jingoistic nationalism of making nations great (again) even as that stokes the fires of international tension that breaks out in war.

    Interesting, given Remembrance Day's mixed heritage (John McCrae was Canadian) the White Poppy is never seen in Canada. Moreover in Canada Remembrance Day never lost its "Never Again" aspect. That has always been the orinary message here since at least the 1980's

    The Royal Canadian Legion has never acted as a jingoistic advocate in my lifetime and has stayed out of politics since the Flag Debate in the 1960's.
  • You don't need to 'buy' something to give to charity. And, besides why should ordinary people be asked to dig into their pockets for loose change to pay the cost of wars the government decided to wage? Which isn't just about the current government who seems quite happy to cut welfare payments to the point where food bank use is rising exponentially - even under former governments with benefits that were more readily accessible and paid a bit closer to what's needed there was still a need to support veterans and their families from the mental, emotional and physical impact of being asked to protect the interests of rich Brits.

    The white poppy also supports charity, just different charities. The purple one supports animal charities.

    When I buy a poppy, I do not expect to get value for money and I am certainly not paying for the cost of wars

  • Telford wrote: »
    When I buy a poppy, I do not expect to get value for money and I am certainly not paying for the cost of wars

    The British Legion is a charity that provides support (both financial and emotional) to veterans and serving members of the forces in need. The fact that these needs exist is a consequence of war, and so forms part of a reasonably-accounted cost of war.


  • Telford wrote: »
    When I buy a poppy, I do not expect to get value for money and I am certainly not paying for the cost of wars

    The British Legion is a charity that provides support (both financial and emotional) to veterans and serving members of the forces in need. The fact that these needs exist is a consequence of war, and so forms part of a reasonably-accounted cost of war.

    Untill we abolish all wars, thse needs will exist

  • The objections of the Women's Cooperative, the Peace Pledge Union and other like-minded organisations in the early 1930s are still valid. Remembrance is still being used to glorify war, the red poppy still being worn as a mark of patriotism, the 'never again' aspect of Remembrance is lost in the jingoistic nationalism of making nations great (again) even as that stokes the fires of international tension that breaks out in war.

    Interesting, given Remembrance Day's mixed heritage (John McCrae was Canadian) the White Poppy is never seen in Canada. Moreover in Canada Remembrance Day never lost its "Never Again" aspect. That has always been the orinary message here since at least the 1980's

    The Royal Canadian Legion has never acted as a jingoistic advocate in my lifetime and has stayed out of politics since the Flag Debate in the 1960's.

    This is also the case in Remembrance Day observances here in our NSW country town, where they are always led by a clergyperson, and dominated by prayers for those killed or injured, for those left behind and for peace in the world and an end to war.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    This is also the case in Remembrance Day observances here in our NSW country town, where they are always led by a clergyperson, and dominated by prayers for those killed or injured, for those left behind and for peace in the world and an end to war.

    Remembrance Day has always had that serious nature about it, particularly in country towns. It was Anzac Day which had the bad reputation in the cities for drunkenness and vulgarity. That has largely vanished over the last 25 years.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    When I buy a poppy, I do not expect to get value for money and I am certainly not paying for the cost of wars

    The British Legion is a charity that provides support (both financial and emotional) to veterans and serving members of the forces in need. The fact that these needs exist is a consequence of war, and so forms part of a reasonably-accounted cost of war.

    Untill we abolish all wars, thse needs will exist

    Quite. Hence (a) why buying a poppy is paying the cost of war, as originally asserted and initially denied by you, and (b) why the "never again" aspect is so important, and the "future soldier" t-shirt so inappropriate.
  • I - who advocate wearing both a red and a white poppy - was once interviewed on the radio together with a staunch British Legion man. In many ways our attitudes to Remembrance were poles apart, but we did agree on one thing: that the Poppy Appeal should be unnecessary because Governments should support those who get injured or maimed as they serve their country.
  • Most charities exist so that they cease to exist. People running food banks would love it for the day when they can close up permanently because there are no families unable to buy the food they need at the supermarket. I'm sure the RBL (and, similar organisations outwith England) would be very happy if the government took over providing for the needs of veterans, and they could distribute poppies so people can wear them in remembrance without having to run the "buy a poppy to support veterans" message - because remembrance of those who died and support of veterans are actually different things. If the donations for poppies covered the costs of production and distribution of the poppies with a bit left over that could be used to support documentation of the experiences of war (eg: collecting recordings of reminiscences of veterans), and making use of those in museums and history lessons that would be a much more appropriate use of poppy money within the context of Remembrance.
  • ... because remembrance of those who died and support of veterans are actually different things....
    This.

  • One issue I have with the focus on raising money for disabled and/or traumatised veterans is that the government should be providing adequate support for everyone in that position, veteran or not. The person born with cerebral palsy, the person traumatised by domestic abuse, the person dealing with MS, the person maimed while fishing or fighting a fire or building a house are no more or less entitled to support and help. The singling out of veterans as "heroes", as the "deserving" disabled (and even then it's the physically disabled who get the sympathy) just serves to emphasise how badly the government treats non-veterans who are disabled.
  • That's true, but also not happening at the moment. Right now, Legacy helped my client get a wheelchair.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Mentioned before I'm sure: the hamlet of Pillac, a crossroads in the Charente with less than 600 people in WWI, 150 men of fighting age, has 16 dead on the war memorial. Literally decimated, 'Pour France'. I'm moved every time I see those terribly beautiful simple words.

    The most moving memorials in the UK, The National Firefighters Memorial, which I believe has an elegy of three thousand names, I read them all out of respect.

    And St Peter's Church, Radway (TBC), Warwickshire, under the louring shadow of Edge Hill, has dead from both sides in the battle. It moves me writing that. Englishmen died fighting each other in our defining and civil war there 378 years ago. After this prayer:

    Jacob Astley
    1st Baron Astley of Reading
    Major-General of the Foot
    The Battle of Edgehill
    Southern Warwickshire
    Sunday, 23rd October 1642

    "O Lord, Thou knowest how busy I must be this day. If I forget Thee, do not forget me."

    which he followed promptly with the order "March on, boys!"

    There's also a terribly poignant war memorial in Dunoon, Argyll and Bute, Scotland, from the same period, the Lamont Memorial of the 1646 Dunoon Massacre, overlooking nuclear submarines going doon the watter.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Even in the key period of 1940, "standing alone" is factually incorrect. Out of "the few", almost 3000 fighter pilots flying sortie after sortie against the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain almost 600 weren't British; many from the Empire (NZ, Canada and Australia) but also almost 300 Poles, Czech, Belgium and French pilots; also 20 volunteers from neutral US and Ireland. Britain has only managed with the help of friends and allies, "going it alone" is something we've never succeeded at ... and the next few years will show how stupid the idea that we can cope without working with other European nations is.

    The Polish No. 303 Squadron RAF 'claimed the largest number of aircraft shot down of the 66 Allied fighter squadrons engaged in the Battle of Britain, even though it joined the fray two months after the battle had begun'. Wiki

    'In his definitive 1977 account of the Battle of Britain entitled simply “Fighter”, Len Deighton wrote: ”Poles and Czechs were not permitted to participate in the air fighting until they had mastered the rudiments of the English language and flying procedures. When they did start operations, these homeless men, motivated often by a hatred bordering upon despair, fought with a terrible and merciless dedication”.'

    Half of '...the top ten scoring RAF pilots of the Battle (achieving 14 or more victories), one was Czech, one was Polish, one was Australian and two were New Zealanders.'

    Source.
  • If our state sends soldiers to war, perhaps we should be prepared to pay a sufficiency of tax to take care of veterans needs and not have them have to rely on charity.
  • If our state sends soldiers to war, perhaps we should be prepared to pay a sufficiency of tax to take care of veterans needs and not have them have to rely on charity.

    Yes.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    When I buy a poppy, I do not expect to get value for money and I am certainly not paying for the cost of wars

    The British Legion is a charity that provides support (both financial and emotional) to veterans and serving members of the forces in need. The fact that these needs exist is a consequence of war, and so forms part of a reasonably-accounted cost of war.

    Untill we abolish all wars, thse needs will exist

    Quite. Hence (a) why buying a poppy is paying the cost of war, as originally asserted and initially denied by you, and (b) why the "never again" aspect is so important, and the "future soldier" t-shirt so inappropriate.

    I couldn't disgree with you more.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    When I buy a poppy, I do not expect to get value for money and I am certainly not paying for the cost of wars

    The British Legion is a charity that provides support (both financial and emotional) to veterans and serving members of the forces in need. The fact that these needs exist is a consequence of war, and so forms part of a reasonably-accounted cost of war.

    Untill we abolish all wars, thse needs will exist

    Quite. Hence (a) why buying a poppy is paying the cost of war, as originally asserted and initially denied by you, and (b) why the "never again" aspect is so important, and the "future soldier" t-shirt so inappropriate.

    I couldn't disgree with you more.

    Probably so, but you've posted nothing to actually substantiate that disagreement.

    I'm not sure on what basis you can deny that the ongoing needs of veterans are part of the cost of war.

    I'm surprised you think we should not be committing ourselves to the avoidance of the mass slaughter of two world wars.

    And it's hard to see how the remembrance of such slaughter and commitment to avoid it in the future is the appropriate time (if such there ever is) to encourage children to be part of the next slaughter.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    When I buy a poppy, I do not expect to get value for money and I am certainly not paying for the cost of wars

    The British Legion is a charity that provides support (both financial and emotional) to veterans and serving members of the forces in need. The fact that these needs exist is a consequence of war, and so forms part of a reasonably-accounted cost of war.

    Untill we abolish all wars, thse needs will exist

    Quite. Hence (a) why buying a poppy is paying the cost of war, as originally asserted and initially denied by you, and (b) why the "never again" aspect is so important, and the "future soldier" t-shirt so inappropriate.

    I couldn't disgree with you more.

    Probably so, but you've posted nothing to actually substantiate that disagreement.
    I don't need to . My statement is clear enough
    I'm not sure on what basis you can deny that the ongoing needs of veterans are part of the cost of war.
    I don't deny it's party of the cost, but sometimes costs have to be paid
    I'm surprised you think we should not be committing ourselves to the avoidance of the mass slaughter of two world wars.
    I don't see how we can commit ourselves to avoid anything that happened in the first half of thre 20th century.
    And it's hard to see how the remembrance of such slaughter and commitment to avoid it in the future is the appropriate time (if such there ever is) to encourage children to be part of the next slaughter.
    We remember the sacrifice and at the same time we hope to avoid such sacrifices in the future. This is what's said at the services I have attended.

  • First point - you earlier disputed that the contribution for the poppy was paying part of the costs of war. You now seem to accept it is. Progress.

    Second - you know, I am sure, that I meant avoiding repeating the slaughter.

    Third - this doesn't actually address my objection to using remembrance to recruit children for future wars at all.

    I'm playing chess with a pigeon again...
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    KarlLB wrote: »
    First point - you earlier disputed that the contribution for the poppy was paying part of the costs of war. You now seem to accept it is. Progress.

    Second - you know, I am sure, that I meant avoiding repeating the slaughter.

    Third - this doesn't actually address my objection to using remembrance to recruit children for future wars at all.

    I'm playing chess with a pigeon again...

    You are not playing chess. You are making silly statements about recruiting children. I still don't accept anything you said.



  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    KarlLB and Telford - neither of you is saying anything to advance this thread. I am regretting having started it.
  • I never bring the subject up out of respect for the depth of other people's feelings, especially at this time of year, but if anyone asks, I no longer observe Remembrance Day because my brain cannot handle the contradictions. And the contradictions appear everywhere, not just in how we narrate and observe the day.

    Example 1: a nearby city has decided that veterans should get free parking year-round (used to be just the week of Remembrance Day). At the same time, the people of that city blocked a project by the Royal Canadian Legion to build supportive housing for homeless veterans. Thanks for your service, you get free parking while you're living in your car.

    Example 2: on November 12, it was announced that Arlington National Cemetery had approved plans to expand and create space for an additional 60,000 graves. That literally makes me cry every time I think of it.

    I'm not a full-on pacifist, and I respect military folk, but I also believe the only truly meaningful way of honouring dead soldiers is to stop making more of them.
  • One issue I have with the focus on raising money for disabled and/or traumatised veterans is that the government should be providing adequate support for everyone in that position, veteran or not. The person born with cerebral palsy, the person traumatised by domestic abuse, the person dealing with MS, the person maimed while fishing or fighting a fire or building a house are no more or less entitled to support and help.

    The disabled and/or traumatized veteran was injured whilst working for the government as a soldier. In their case, the government has not only the general responsibility of government towards its people, but also the specific responsibility of an employer whose employee is injured on the job.
  • I never bring the subject up out of respect for the depth of other people's feelings, especially at this time of year, but if anyone asks, I no longer observe Remembrance Day because my brain cannot handle the contradictions. And the contradictions appear everywhere, not just in how we narrate and observe the day.

    Example 1: a nearby city has decided that veterans should get free parking year-round (used to be just the week of Remembrance Day). At the same time, the people of that city blocked a project by the Royal Canadian Legion to build supportive housing for homeless veterans. Thanks for your service, you get free parking while you're living in your car.

    Example 2: on November 12, it was announced that Arlington National Cemetery had approved plans to expand and create space for an additional 60,000 graves. That literally makes me cry every time I think of it.

    I'm not a full-on pacifist, and I respect military folk, but I also believe the only truly meaningful way of honouring dead soldiers is to stop making more of them.
    Contrary to what Douglas MacArthur said, old soldiers do die. They don't just fade away. They have to be burried somewhere.

  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    "But the old man would not so, but slew his son, And half the seed of Europe, one by one"

    This, by Wilfred Owen is what came to mind seeing the children with the Future Soldier clothing.

    In Dunedin, a city south of here there us a memorial to Archibald Baxter, a Conscientious Objector who was taken against his will to the Front during WWI and repeatedly tied up and left during the battles. He survived the write a book - We Shall Not Cease.

    I think visiting his memorial would be a suitable way for me to commemorate next Armistice Day.
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