(FYI: "Kum ba yah" is an African (-based?) song Americans sing in youth groups, etc. Generally, when everyone's a little emotional, and maybe towards the end of an evening gathering.)
It's mostly a feature of comedic sketches about 1970s style trendy vicars with rainbow guitar straps and sandals over here. John Bell (WGWG) reckons it can be used non-ironically but I think most people would struggle.
It was used unironically when I was growing up in the 80s/90s, though it was associated with the scouts as a camp fire song as much as anything.
'Glacier' is a French word, from 'glace' meaning 'ice'. The 'glace' syllable should thereforebe pronounced 'glahss'. As the word has been anglicised, of course, we do not pronounce the 'ier' ending as in French but as in English. Compromise.
Hmm. I would have said the French phoneme was more like that in the Scots ‘lassie’ than the longer sound suggested by ‘glahss’.
Barnabas62Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
I’ve heard on BBC Radio, quite a few years ago, a dramatisation of “The Kraken Wakes”. And the title, announced at the time, was pronounced Krahken. The BBC is careful about such things, though not infallible.
But I don’t much care if there are different pronunciations elsewhere. Mostly I think “that’s interesting” rather than “that’s wrong”.
'Glacier' is a French word, from 'glace' meaning 'ice'. The 'glace' syllable should thereforebe pronounced 'glahss'.
I believe the a in glace is in fact a short vowel. It is just that it is in fact a pure a sound, and the pure a is only used as a long vowel in RP English.
(FYI: "Kum ba yah" is an African (-based?) song Americans sing in youth groups, etc. Generally, when everyone's a little emotional, and maybe towards the end of an evening gathering.)
It's mostly a feature of comedic sketches about 1970s style trendy vicars with rainbow guitar straps and sandals over here. John Bell (WGWG) reckons it can be used non-ironically but I think most people would struggle.
I know I had heard Kumbayah sung non-ironically in the 1970s or 1980s, likely in a post-V2 Catholic context(which for me would be either church or school).
From what I remember, it was in the early 2000s, post-9/11, that people started using it ironically, to ridicule supposedly misguided peace activists. I confess to having used it that way myself, but only to mock certain activists I regarded as facile in their approach. I don't think at that point I had heard it used by pro-war people, but after that, such usage became common.
Not sure where I got the idea to appropriate the phrase. Possibly coincidence that it was later picked up by the neo-cons, or maybe I had already heard it without consciously remembering that I had.
I'm not dogmatic about the English pronunciation of 'glace'. Equating English and French vowel sounds is about as easy as equating English and Welsh. I think most people would agree that 'glace' is never pronounced 'glayce' in French.
It's mostly a feature of comedic sketches about 1970s style trendy vicars with rainbow guitar straps and sandals over here. John Bell (WGWG) reckons it can be used non-ironically but I think most people would struggle.
Again, this can be a very relative thing. I come from the same part of the world that Kum Ba Yah (sometimes Kumbaya, Come By Ya or Come By Here) comes from, and aside from the expression "let's all get together and Sing Kum Ba Yah," it's almost always sung non-ironically here. It's in many American hymnals (including that of my tribe), and in my experience it's typically sung in church or in other worship/prayer situations. Usually in my experience, it's sung more or less like this or this.
It certainly did enjoy popularity during the folk music revival of the 50s and 60s, which no doubt led to its popularity as a campfire song in the 60s and 70s (and maybe later some places). It was also sung during the Civil Rights Movement; there is a recording of it being sung on the Selma to Montgomery marches.
All of which is to say that I get it's taken on ironic connotations in many places, but where I am it's still very much a spiritual.
I, too, recalled The Kraken Wakes when I first saw this thread. I was a big fan of John Wyndham as a teenager, and recall that we read The Chrysalids (I think) in high school. Has He gone out of fashion?
All of which is to say that I get it's taken on ironic connotations in many places, but where I am it's still very much a spiritual.
When it's referenced ironically, I think the imagined singer is supposed to be some sort of affluent, probably white, weekend-hippie type.
Even people who are hostile to blacks and the civil-rights movement probably wouldn't use that particular song to mock them, because it sort of implies the singer is a pathetic dweeb, rather than a menacing thug, the latter being the stereotype more beloved by white racists.
(Not that I think Nick was neccessarily saying otherwise, I'm just kinda ruminating on the way the tune is used, depending on its perceived cultural origins.)
It's also an English word. I say the English one, not the French one.
, from 'glace' meaning 'ice'. The 'glace' syllable should thereforebe pronounced 'glahss'.
In French, yes.
As the word has been anglicised, of course, we do not pronounce the 'ier' ending as in French but as in English. Compromise.
Compromise squat. That's how it works when words move across linguistic boundaries. The recipient language pronounces them however the hell it wants, origin be damned. Has always been thus.
IMO, this depends on whether the word has cultural connection. Glacier is a word of French origin, but not of French culture. Some words have that connection so, IMO, an attempt at a decent indigenous pronunciation should be made.
It's mostly a feature of comedic sketches about 1970s style trendy vicars with rainbow guitar straps and sandals over here. John Bell (WGWG) reckons it can be used non-ironically but I think most people would struggle.
I keep reading that as rainbow sandal straps. What sort of socks would an English vicar wear with those?
Thx for the Gullah background. I've come across a tiny bit about them, mostly from the book "The Water Is Wide" which was written by an outsider who was a teacher among them. (Made into the film "Conrack".) Looked them up recently, too, 'cause something reminded me of them.
IIRC, I was told in school that the song was from S. Africa.
I think the only way I've referred to the song sarcastically is something like "Sure, we could all hold hands, sing 'Kumbaya', and jump into a fairy ring. None of that is bad, but it doesn't necessarily fix anything."
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'd pronounce 'Glacier' with a short 'a'. I don't know how to show that, but 'glă-sǐ-yǝ. That's the same whether it's a river of ice or a Glacier Mint. I think that's normal here. Irrespective of how it might have been pronounced in Old Icelandic, I'd also pronounce Kracken as 'Crack-ǝn'.
I don't particularly care how either would be pronounced in Icelandic or French.
If David and Ben Crystal are correct, Shakespeare as it was pronounced in 1610 is different from how modern Shakespearean actors pronounce it, but it's not that difficult to understand. It just sounds a bit rustic. It also goes faster than a modern production.
That's interesting, but I don't see enough detail there to explain how it tells us what Old Norse sounded like. (A Google search on the FGT was similarly unenlightening.) Presumably there's some chain of inferences involved, but I'm still wondering what those might be.
If David and Ben Crystal are correct, Shakespeare as it was pronounced in 1610 is different from how modern Shakespearean actors pronounce it, but it's not that difficult to understand. It just sounds a bit rustic. It also goes faster than a modern production.
That's interesting, but I don't see enough detail there to explain how it tells us what Old Norse sounded like. (A Google search on the FGT was similarly unenlightening.) Presumably there's some chain of inferences involved, but I'm still wondering what those might be.
You can read the treatise and a discussion on what it tells us of Old Norse pronunciation through a free account on Jstor, if you're interested.
Search for:
First Grammatical Treatise. The Earliest Germanic Phonology
Einar Haugen
Language
Language
Vol. 26, No. 4, Language Monograph No. 25: First Grammatical Treatise. The Earliest Germanic Phonology (Oct. - Dec., 1950), pp. 4-64 (61 pages)
Published by: Linguistic Society of America
That's interesting, but I don't see enough detail there to explain how it tells us what Old Norse sounded like. (A Google search on the FGT was similarly unenlightening.) Presumably there's some chain of inferences involved, but I'm still wondering what those might be.
You can read the treatise and a discussion on what it tells us of Old Norse pronunciation through a free account on Jstor, if you're interested.
Search for:
First Grammatical Treatise. The Earliest Germanic Phonology
Einar Haugen
Language
Language
Vol. 26, No. 4, Language Monograph No. 25: First Grammatical Treatise. The Earliest Germanic Phonology (Oct. - Dec., 1950), pp. 4-64 (61 pages)
Published by: Linguistic Society of America
Thanks, Karl - I will definitely check that out. I finally have a reason to take advantage of the free Covid-time JSTOR account offer.
Many people are gullible, and we can expect this to continue.
I don't think gullible is the correct word. Gullible still implies a thought process, though a weak one. People fall into bullshit because it fits something they already believe or are inclined to.
Many people are gullible, and we can expect this to continue.
I don't think gullible is the correct word. Gullible still implies a thought process, though a weak one. People fall into bullshit because it fits something they already believe or are inclined to.
Comments
It was used unironically when I was growing up in the 80s/90s, though it was associated with the scouts as a camp fire song as much as anything.
But I don’t much care if there are different pronunciations elsewhere. Mostly I think “that’s interesting” rather than “that’s wrong”.
I know I had heard Kumbayah sung non-ironically in the 1970s or 1980s, likely in a post-V2 Catholic context(which for me would be either church or school).
From what I remember, it was in the early 2000s, post-9/11, that people started using it ironically, to ridicule supposedly misguided peace activists. I confess to having used it that way myself, but only to mock certain activists I regarded as facile in their approach. I don't think at that point I had heard it used by pro-war people, but after that, such usage became common.
Not sure where I got the idea to appropriate the phrase. Possibly coincidence that it was later picked up by the neo-cons, or maybe I had already heard it without consciously remembering that I had.
Again, this can be a very relative thing. I come from the same part of the world that Kum Ba Yah (sometimes Kumbaya, Come By Ya or Come By Here) comes from, and aside from the expression "let's all get together and Sing Kum Ba Yah," it's almost always sung non-ironically here. It's in many American hymnals (including that of my tribe), and in my experience it's typically sung in church or in other worship/prayer situations. Usually in my experience, it's sung more or less like this or this.
It certainly did enjoy popularity during the folk music revival of the 50s and 60s, which no doubt led to its popularity as a campfire song in the 60s and 70s (and maybe later some places). It was also sung during the Civil Rights Movement; there is a recording of it being sung on the Selma to Montgomery marches.
All of which is to say that I get it's taken on ironic connotations in many places, but where I am it's still very much a spiritual.
All of which is to say that I get it's taken on ironic connotations in many places, but where I am it's still very much a spiritual.
When it's referenced ironically, I think the imagined singer is supposed to be some sort of affluent, probably white, weekend-hippie type.
Even people who are hostile to blacks and the civil-rights movement probably wouldn't use that particular song to mock them, because it sort of implies the singer is a pathetic dweeb, rather than a menacing thug, the latter being the stereotype more beloved by white racists.
(Not that I think Nick was neccessarily saying otherwise, I'm just kinda ruminating on the way the tune is used, depending on its perceived cultural origins.)
It's also an English word. I say the English one, not the French one.
In French, yes.
Compromise squat. That's how it works when words move across linguistic boundaries. The recipient language pronounces them however the hell it wants, origin be damned. Has always been thus.
I keep reading that as rainbow sandal straps. What sort of socks would an English vicar wear with those?
Nick--
Thx for the Gullah background. I've come across a tiny bit about them, mostly from the book "The Water Is Wide" which was written by an outsider who was a teacher among them. (Made into the film "Conrack".) Looked them up recently, too, 'cause something reminded me of them.
IIRC, I was told in school that the song was from S. Africa.
I think the only way I've referred to the song sarcastically is something like "Sure, we could all hold hands, sing 'Kumbaya', and jump into a fairy ring. None of that is bad, but it doesn't necessarily fix anything."
Solid-color socks of the proper liturgical colors?
I don't particularly care how either would be pronounced in Icelandic or French.
If David and Ben Crystal are correct, Shakespeare as it was pronounced in 1610 is different from how modern Shakespearean actors pronounce it, but it's not that difficult to understand. It just sounds a bit rustic. It also goes faster than a modern production.
Oh, they're right. All the puns work in OP.
A good start!
You can read the treatise and a discussion on what it tells us of Old Norse pronunciation through a free account on Jstor, if you're interested.
Search for:
First Grammatical Treatise. The Earliest Germanic Phonology
Einar Haugen
Language
Language
Vol. 26, No. 4, Language Monograph No. 25: First Grammatical Treatise. The Earliest Germanic Phonology (Oct. - Dec., 1950), pp. 4-64 (61 pages)
Published by: Linguistic Society of America
Thanks, Karl - I will definitely check that out. I finally have a reason to take advantage of the free Covid-time JSTOR account offer.
You can fool most of the people most of the time.
(just lie, double down on it, it will work with eventually diminishing returns after about five years)
Many people are gullible, and we can expect this to continue.
No man ever went broke overestimating the ignorance of the American public.
& this
The common man, no matter how sharp and tough, actually enjoys having the wool pulled over his eyes, and makes it easier for the puller.
This.