Do "subconditional" baptisms and other mysteries/sacraments exist in Orthodoxy? (If you are not sure if the baptism that a child received was a "real" baptism, the priest does a subconditional baptism ("If you are not already baptized, I baptize you...") in order to avoid the sacrilege of repeating the sacrament of baptism.)
If someone doesn't know if they were baptised, they are almost certainly going to be baptised "again". Christmation is felt to make up for anything that might be lacking in a Trinitarian baptism from another Christian body, at least for those jurisdictions that don't demand baptism-for-all.
I can’t now remember whether the Baptist church in which I grew up insisted that all its official members must have undergone adult baptism. I know it wasn’t essential there to have been baptized in order to receive communion (the pastor used to invite “those who love our Lord Jesus Christ and who are walking in fellowship with him” to participate) but it might have been necessary before you could be received into membership.
My dad, who grew up in a vicarage, was obviously baptized as an infant. I have just realized I have absolutely no idea whether or not he was rebaptized when he returned to faith and joined a Baptist church.
Different Baptist churches have different rules, depending on their past history and sometimes on the Trust Deeds of their building. And some will re-baptise those who have been christened as infants, others don't especially in an ecumenical setting. Quite a common scenario is that you don't need to have been baptised as a believer to be a church member but you do if you are put up for the Diaconate. Strangely this means that churches called Baptist may have a smaller proportion of baptised attenders than many who aren't!
I don't like labels, but to get back to the OP, I used to define myself as evangelical. In the British Anglican sense, that meant that I held a high view of scripture which needed to be interpreted and preached with God-honouring intellectual rigour. The term has been so defiled (I use the verb advisedly) by American conservatives, that I don't use it any longer.
Also, I'm pretty laid back about different practices of different parts of Christ's body on earth, ie the church. Except: (Posting as a teenaged-baptised-by-immersion) So-called rebaptism, whether by denominations which don't recognise the Trinitarian formula declared at infant baptism, or by Eastern churches which sinfully, proudly, hold that they have a monopoly of insight into how the Holy Spirit has moved in the history of a believer's life before adherence to Easternism.
I don't like labels, but to get back to the OP, I used to define myself as evangelical. In the British Anglican sense, that meant that I held a high view of scripture which needed to be interpreted and preached with God-honouring intellectual rigour. The term has been so defiled (I use the verb advisedly) by American conservatives, that I don't use it any longer.
Also, I'm pretty laid back about different practices of different parts of Christ's body on earth, ie the church. Except: (Posting as a teenaged-baptised-by-immersion) So-called rebaptism, whether by denominations which don't recognise the Trinitarian formula declared at infant baptism, or by Eastern churches which sinfully, proudly, hold that they have a monopoly of insight into how the Holy Spirit has moved in the history of a believer's life before adherence to Easternism.
A gentle reminder that Ecclesiantics even in 2020 is a place of peace-sharing hippie love-in respectful engagement with the hermeneutical and implementational traditions of all strands of liturgical mayhem expression.
Do "subconditional" baptisms and other mysteries/sacraments exist in Orthodoxy? (If you are not sure if the baptism that a child received was a "real" baptism, the priest does a subconditional baptism ("If you are not already baptized, I baptize you...") in order to avoid the sacrilege of repeating the sacrament of baptism.)
If someone doesn't know if they were baptised, they are almost certainly going to be baptised "again". Christmation is felt to make up for anything that might be lacking in a Trinitarian baptism from another Christian body, at least for those jurisdictions that don't demand baptism-for-all.
I was born in Higham Ferrers, in the midst of celebrations following VJ day. My father was serving on a Royal Navy frigate based in Shanghai at the time. Shortly after my arrival, my mother, a devout Christian describing herself as "Low Church" having no idea of any difference in Christian denomination other than "High" or "Low", was offered a Navy bungalow at Lee-on-Solent and we moved south. Somehow or other my Christening was forgotten and I have never been baptised.
With my mother's encouragement I attended the local church and Sunday school, joined the church choir and at 13 started to attend confirmation classes. However, my father was offered the tenancy of a Portsmouth pub, and rather than change school I elected to transfer to the school's boarding house. The other boys my age had already been confirmed we were all expected to attend church communion services. I let out the secret of my lack of either baptism or confirmation to another boy, and his advice was "Keep quiet - don't mention it - nobody will notice - just follow what the others do".
I took his advice rigidly for the next 60 years.
I've never felt guilty accepting the bread and wine at a communion service, and my belief in the Gospels has only strengthened over the years.
Isn't this an indication that the God in heaven is fairly neutral on the subject of denominational differences and more concerned about our quality of life on earth?
P.S. I've often asked in my prayers how many months it takes for a frigate to reach Shanghai from Portsmouth, and a lack of any reply I assume means it doesn't matter.
Isn't this an indication that the God in heaven is fairly neutral on the subject of denominational differences and more concerned about our quality of life on earth?
No, not really. The "X happened therefore God doesn't care about XY" argument is very dodgy. Trump survived Covid. Isn't this an indication that God doesn't care about disease prevention? No. No, it does not.
@Anthony Your lack of formal church initiation rites may not, as @mousethief says, be an indication, but that doesn't mean that what you say about God's indifference to our human-made rules and rites and divisions is not also true.
If we believe that God is the progenitor (father and mother) of all humankind, we are all His children, irrespective of denomination or religion. Christians should be able to believe that He loves us all equally.
Our religions and denominations within particular religions stem from our human imperfections and will not unduly trouble the Father of mankind. - even although the differences may trouble us.
Mousethief, if I wished to convert to Orthodoxy, would I need to baptized into the Orthodox church although I was definitely baptized in Trinitarian form in the Episcopal church? In other words would Orthodoxy consider my baptism valid? Or would I just need to be charismated in the Orthodox Church? Were you baptized when you joined?
Mousethief, if I wished to convert to Orthodoxy, would I need to baptized into the Orthodox church although I was definitely baptized in Trinitarian form in the Episcopal church? In other words would Orthodoxy consider my baptism valid? Or would I just need to be charismated in the Orthodox Church? Were you baptized when you joined?
Inquiring minds...
It really depends on the priest. I was baptized Presbyterian, but with triple immersion, and all I needed to do to be accepted into the OC was be chrismated. Other priests are less accommodating. The ROCOR priests in this country tend to want to baptize everybody, but there are always exceptions even there.
My Orthodox friend who converted at university was brought up in the house church movement, and was baptised as a child in the bath by her dad. Her dad used the Trinitarian formula and her confessor was happy to accept that as a valid baptism, so she was just chrismated. It helps that both parents subsequently converted to the Orthodox Church themselves.
Comments
If someone doesn't know if they were baptised, they are almost certainly going to be baptised "again". Christmation is felt to make up for anything that might be lacking in a Trinitarian baptism from another Christian body, at least for those jurisdictions that don't demand baptism-for-all.
My dad, who grew up in a vicarage, was obviously baptized as an infant. I have just realized I have absolutely no idea whether or not he was rebaptized when he returned to faith and joined a Baptist church.
Also, I'm pretty laid back about different practices of different parts of Christ's body on earth, ie the church. Except: (Posting as a teenaged-baptised-by-immersion) So-called rebaptism, whether by denominations which don't recognise the Trinitarian formula declared at infant baptism, or by Eastern churches which sinfully, proudly, hold that they have a monopoly of insight into how the Holy Spirit has moved in the history of a believer's life before adherence to Easternism.
That's one whopper of a straw man.
A gentle reminder that Ecclesiantics even in 2020 is a place of peace-sharing hippie love-in respectful engagement with the hermeneutical and implementational traditions of all strands of liturgical mayhem expression.
[/Hosting]
I was born in Higham Ferrers, in the midst of celebrations following VJ day. My father was serving on a Royal Navy frigate based in Shanghai at the time. Shortly after my arrival, my mother, a devout Christian describing herself as "Low Church" having no idea of any difference in Christian denomination other than "High" or "Low", was offered a Navy bungalow at Lee-on-Solent and we moved south. Somehow or other my Christening was forgotten and I have never been baptised.
With my mother's encouragement I attended the local church and Sunday school, joined the church choir and at 13 started to attend confirmation classes. However, my father was offered the tenancy of a Portsmouth pub, and rather than change school I elected to transfer to the school's boarding house. The other boys my age had already been confirmed we were all expected to attend church communion services. I let out the secret of my lack of either baptism or confirmation to another boy, and his advice was "Keep quiet - don't mention it - nobody will notice - just follow what the others do".
I took his advice rigidly for the next 60 years.
I've never felt guilty accepting the bread and wine at a communion service, and my belief in the Gospels has only strengthened over the years.
Isn't this an indication that the God in heaven is fairly neutral on the subject of denominational differences and more concerned about our quality of life on earth?
P.S. I've often asked in my prayers how many months it takes for a frigate to reach Shanghai from Portsmouth, and a lack of any reply I assume means it doesn't matter.
No, not really. The "X happened therefore God doesn't care about XY" argument is very dodgy. Trump survived Covid. Isn't this an indication that God doesn't care about disease prevention? No. No, it does not.
Our religions and denominations within particular religions stem from our human imperfections and will not unduly trouble the Father of mankind. - even although the differences may trouble us.
Inquiring minds...
It really depends on the priest. I was baptized Presbyterian, but with triple immersion, and all I needed to do to be accepted into the OC was be chrismated. Other priests are less accommodating. The ROCOR priests in this country tend to want to baptize everybody, but there are always exceptions even there.