When to kneel, when to stand
stonespring
Shipmate
When I started going to RC church, my local parish church had the practice of kneeling after the Sanctus (which is pretty universal, if people are to kneel at all - otherwise people just stay standing for all of the Eucharistic prayer as they did at my university's RC ministry - although this may have been in part because we didn't have any kneelers or cushions where we met for Mass). People would stand after the Amen at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and kneel again after the Agnus Dei and before the "Behold the Lamb of God/Ecce Agnus Dei." In the US at least, this is pretty normal (although in Europe I have observed RC churches where people stand back up again after the words of institution).
Where there is great variation in RC parishes in the US is when people stop kneeling after kneeling again at the "Behold the Lamb of God." Some people kneel until they go up to receive communion then sit upon returning to their pew. Other people kneel for a short prayer when they return to their pew then sit. Still others keep kneeling until the unconsumed consecrated hosts are put in the tabernacle, and others keep kneeling until the presiding priest sits down. Lastly, there are those who keep kneeling until the priest says "Let us pray" leading into the prayer after communion. I got into the practice of doing the latter because I noticed that that was what those who stayed kneeling after returning to their pew tended to do at my local parish church way back when.
But as I have traveled, I have noticed that there are some churches where almost everyone sits when the tabernacle is closed or when the priest sits, so I feel a bit ostentatious by continuing to kneel. And then there are the parishes where everyone does their own thing and it is hard to even identify when a plurality of congregants stop kneeling. At these places, I find myself looking around to see at any moment who, besides myself, is still kneeling, and I feel guilty for feeling like it is a competition. I am not sure whether to keep kneeling because I am doing it out of my own devotion (or so I would like to think) and I should not care what others do, or to force myself to sit because continuing to kneel makes me feel a sinful sense of pride (and trust me, I am far from a very pious person. I tend to fetishize the Liturgy and what one does during it (as you can probably tell), so just about everything I do at Mass feels calculated even when it shouldn't be, down to whatever my hands are doing at any given time (why doesn't the GIRM have detailed instructions for the congregation regarding this?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Worst of all are the parishes where the priest gives the announcements after communion but before the prayer after the communion. Doesn't he know that I am waiting for him to say "Let us pray" so I can stop kneeling and not feel awkward about it? Usually the priest does not say "Please be seated" prior to beginning the announcements when they precede the Prayer After Communion (maybe because "Please be seated" is something you usually say when people are standing?).
What do you think? Should there be rules about this sort of thing (or, in other words, "improved liturgical catechesis of the laity") so that kneeling or not kneeling when others act differently does not make one self-conscious to an extent that it distracts from worship? (And you Orthodox that don't have kneeling on Sunday (am I right?) aren't off the hook - I can't tell you how distracting it is to have no idea how often I should be crossing myself during an Orthodox service and being unable to decide which of my fellow congregants to follow because everyone seems to be doing something different!
)
Where there is great variation in RC parishes in the US is when people stop kneeling after kneeling again at the "Behold the Lamb of God." Some people kneel until they go up to receive communion then sit upon returning to their pew. Other people kneel for a short prayer when they return to their pew then sit. Still others keep kneeling until the unconsumed consecrated hosts are put in the tabernacle, and others keep kneeling until the presiding priest sits down. Lastly, there are those who keep kneeling until the priest says "Let us pray" leading into the prayer after communion. I got into the practice of doing the latter because I noticed that that was what those who stayed kneeling after returning to their pew tended to do at my local parish church way back when.
But as I have traveled, I have noticed that there are some churches where almost everyone sits when the tabernacle is closed or when the priest sits, so I feel a bit ostentatious by continuing to kneel. And then there are the parishes where everyone does their own thing and it is hard to even identify when a plurality of congregants stop kneeling. At these places, I find myself looking around to see at any moment who, besides myself, is still kneeling, and I feel guilty for feeling like it is a competition. I am not sure whether to keep kneeling because I am doing it out of my own devotion (or so I would like to think) and I should not care what others do, or to force myself to sit because continuing to kneel makes me feel a sinful sense of pride (and trust me, I am far from a very pious person. I tend to fetishize the Liturgy and what one does during it (as you can probably tell), so just about everything I do at Mass feels calculated even when it shouldn't be, down to whatever my hands are doing at any given time (why doesn't the GIRM have detailed instructions for the congregation regarding this?!?!?!?!?!?!
Worst of all are the parishes where the priest gives the announcements after communion but before the prayer after the communion. Doesn't he know that I am waiting for him to say "Let us pray" so I can stop kneeling and not feel awkward about it? Usually the priest does not say "Please be seated" prior to beginning the announcements when they precede the Prayer After Communion (maybe because "Please be seated" is something you usually say when people are standing?).
What do you think? Should there be rules about this sort of thing (or, in other words, "improved liturgical catechesis of the laity") so that kneeling or not kneeling when others act differently does not make one self-conscious to an extent that it distracts from worship? (And you Orthodox that don't have kneeling on Sunday (am I right?) aren't off the hook - I can't tell you how distracting it is to have no idea how often I should be crossing myself during an Orthodox service and being unable to decide which of my fellow congregants to follow because everyone seems to be doing something different!
Comments
1. An individual may have personal preferences and feel uncomfortable doing them if "everybody" is doing something else. Or not doing them because nobody else seems to be and then feeling awkward in oneself.
2. Most people feel more comfortable doing what other people are doing. And would like to know what that is beforehand. ("Let us be seated"
3. Some individuals see liturgy as a bit of a ballet and find it distracting and disorienting (polite words) if there's no obvious consensus and there are no Directions from the Front. Worse still, if it looks like many of the people have no idea what to do, when or why. But, for example: if I see people nodding or bowing at the Name of Jesus I think to myself (quite kindly and inclusively ) "A-ha! One of those; how lovely! I'll join them so they feel less weird"
Quote: I tend to fetishize the Liturgy and what one does during it
You're far from the only one! Crumbs! I even do those things when I'm watching a livestream at home on my laptop! Long live the "type"!
1) Do what makes you feel comfortable in your worship;
2) Do what will make everyone else feel comfortable.
Obviously, these will overlap (standing while everyone else is kneeling may make everyone else uncomfortable, and that will make you uncomfortable) but you should not come out of church feeling that you haven't given God everything you should (so if in your understanding that part of the liturgy requires you to stand rather than just preferring it, then stand).
At some point in the fairly recent past a priest removed the solid oak, architect designed pews and replaced them with stacking chairs so we no longer kneel, but sit instead.
And in France the norm seems to be to stand throughout the Eucharistic Prayer and to bow at the words of institution.
I can't say that any of this bothers me too much as long as I know what to do.
But I do allow myself a slight chuckle at ecumenical services when at the invitation "Let us pray" half the congregation leaps to its feet while the other half falls to it knees.
2. Message to people drawing up Orders of Service: include rubrics for posture if your church has a preference or "norm".
If all servers are busy, then there are, normally, people in the congregation who 'lead'. The appointment of such people is usually a decision of the congregation and are people who are seen as knowing the rite. The congregation do not ask if you are such a person, they just start following you. Unfortunately, on occasions, a congregation is quite capable of selecting a visitor rather than a regular. Even more worrying if that person has a personal devotional practice. If they are conscientious then they are faced with a dilemma. They either have to give up the practice or it tends to spread through the congregation. I am speaking as one to whom this has happened. I normally follow my personal devotional practice hoping that soon enough they will attend a mass where I am not present. This is because:
a) I am also honouring someone who has died who influenced me greatly
b) I feel really uncomfortable if I do not
Slight tangent: did anyone else grow up with orders of service with little silhouettes at each change in posture?
But I’ve noticed a trend in recent years, which is that the note explaining the asterisk, and that used to say something basic like “Stand,” now says “Those who are able may stand” or “Please stand in body or spirit.”
Occasionally I'm thankful I grew up an atheist
Being used to RC services, I've often been surprised in other denominations when people stand for the express purpose of singing, as at the offertory hymn. But I haven't really observed places where people stand for the communion hymn. Is this the practice anywhere, or did it used to be? And do people stand up straight from kneeling, or would people have sat down by that point?
You mean you're not supposed to? I have wondered whether or not I am committing idolatry or something like it, though, by doing things normally only done in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament when in fact I am only looking at an image of the Blessed Sacrament on the screen. I'm sure some doctoral student has written or is writing something about virtual mass and what the Real Presence means for virtual congregants.
I've noticed the concept of "follow what you see up front" in non-RC churches but more modernly-adorned RC churches the altar party often does not have a kneeler or cushion to kneel on, so they sometimes do not kneel when the rest of the congregation does.
As for people picking someone else out of the congregation as a role model, this is less true in RC settings, partly because of clericalism and partly because RC's tend to just do what they were taught or what they were able to get away with when they were children. As something between a convert and a revert, I've never had the luxury of just being able to go into Cultural Catholic autopilot.
And as for “ cultural Catholicism” then if the otherwise-imposed cap fits, then I’m happy to wear it😜
Another excellent argument for hymnbooks.
A previous member of our choir used to use a copy of the hymnal on his tablet, which he found easier to read than the hymnal (although they were similar in size). He used to process carrying an open hymnal (like the rest of the choir), but his had his tablet resting on top.
And in view of the topic of the thread, this did not cause a distraction, because you only really noticed it if you were looking for it.
Not sure if you would call the flavor of Baptists you are describing liturgical or not, but talking about modern non-liturgical worship in general, is fair to say that it generally does not involve kneeling? If so, when did kneeling begin to be phased out and why? Is it a practical thing, catering to people's tastes, or is it based on theology in some way?
Depends on how many other communicants have to climb over the top of you to return to their seats....
In general one should keep in some sort of step with others in the congregation,but allow liberty to others to stand,sit or kneel as they see best.
Even standing for the Gospel which is almost de rigueur, is difficult for some people.
Anecdote rather than data, but the local churches here (Church of Scotland) were built with pews too close together to allow kneeling. I don't know whether this was a practical choice based on capacity (though as they just pumped the Duke of Argyll for funds they could have just built bigger) or whether kneeling was considered Papist Idolatry or possibly to lead to dancing.
Is Outrage™ But which would be the greater outrage?
I suspect the people who run certain budget airlines and train companies must have modelled their seating onn that church!
I've never been back there.
I have sat in churches where the gap between my seat back and the back of the seat in front is narrower than the length of my thigh. Admittedly at 6’4” I am quite tall - but really!
That shows the rule I was about to set out: stand, sit or kneel as you like, as long as you make sure you're not the only one doing it.
Wait - so people sit for the Lord's Prayer? Is sitting considered more of a "prayer posture" than standing, at least among NZ Anglicans? Maybe the memory of "not standing" when praying is stronger than the memory of kneeling when praying? Do people "reverentially sit" at any other point in the service?
"Reverentially sitting" is the NZ Anglican norm at confession, intercession, Lord's Prayer, Agnus Dei and/or Prayer of Humble Access if used, and post-communion. Interestingly a majority - probably - kneeled to receive communion, but that practice, along with Dipping Jesus' Most Precious Body Into His Most Precious Blood was banned at Covid Lockdown and may only partially recover.
But basically "yes" to your questions.
I've known a lot of people who do a sort of hunched over sitting thing for prayer. Something like "I'm thinking about kneeling, but the floor is hard / my legs don't bend / I'm in a shared pew and the other person doesn't want the kneeler down" so they slide forward in the pew and hunch a bit.
My knees creak too much to risk kneeling these days.
Can be heightened in pious symbolism by combining it with the "pose of the thinker"